11:119 reason for God creating us

huruf

I really do not see any contradiction between justice and mercy. It is true that we shape ourselves and the world, with our deeds, but those deeds we are able to do them by God's leave and also because God created us so. I believe the act of creation is an act of Mercy, in whatever non christian meaning of the word one may adopt, it will always be an act of Mercy and that love is the reason for everything there is, and it will never cease and it is God who gives us the key nnow and forever as He wills to shape our spiritual destiny and will keep giving it to us. God is with as now, one minute go, and He will be in two minutes from now, one second, one milenium from now, and He will continue to be our Lord forever in every instant. And to his Creation He is Rahman, Rahim.

Ok, I guess i went out of the argument, but I did find it too narrow.

Salaam

arnoldyasin

All human, no matter what they do from Good Deeds, they will never do enough to thank God for what he has given them. All humans are injustice and thankless and Ignorant, when it comes to thank God by doing Good (they never do enough).

Peace,

I personally do believe our deeds will determine our outcome and that this is not that grim as you see it since intention and knowledge of the universe also determine to how much you are responsible for every deed. God is not a tyrant who created the human race in such a way it is dependent on His whims and not on their own works, this is the same as what Christians believe, that deeds will not matter. Why create judgment at all if the system is not to be used anyway? God has never created anything in vain (3191).

God says we do not NOT need to fear as long as we 1.believe in God 2. believe in judgement 3. are righteous

2 62 VERILY, those who have attained to faith , as well as those who follow the Jewish faith, and the Christians, and the Sabians* -all who believe in God and the Last Day and do righteous deeds-shall have their reward with their Sustainer; and no fear need they have, and neither shall they grieve.

And since I believe God in His words, I do not need to fear as long as I keep up the above 3 points. This is being a Mumin, one who trusts God.

We can never thank God enough since His creation is infinite so this cannot be the key factor to the judgement, the Qur'an always refers to our deeds

78-9 The scales on that Day will be truly equitable. Those whose constructive deeds are
heavy, will prosper. And those whose scales are light, will be the ones who have put their
own ?self? in loss...

23102-103 Then those whose scales (of good deeds) are heavy, they are the successful. And
those whose scales are light, it is those who have wasted their own

belH

Peace,

I personally do believe our deeds will determine our outcome and that this is not that grim as you see it since intention and knowledge of the universe also determine to how much you are responsible for every deed. God is not a tyrant who created the human race in such a way it is dependent on His whims and not on their own works, this is the same as what Christians believe, that deeds will not matter. Why create judgment at all if the system is not to be used anyway? God has never created anything in vain (3191).

God says we do not NOT need to fear as long as we 1.believe in God 2. believe in judgement 3. are righteous

2 62 VERILY, those who have attained to faith , as well as those who follow the Jewish faith, and the Christians, and the Sabians* -all who believe in God and the Last Day and do righteous deeds-shall have their reward with their Sustainer; and no fear need they have, and neither shall they grieve.

And since I believe God in His words, I do not need to fear as long as I keep up the above 3 points. This is being a Mumin, one who trusts God.

We can never thank God enough since His creation is infinite so this cannot be the key factor to the judgement, the Qur'an always refers to our deeds

78-9 The scales on that Day will be truly equitable. Those whose constructive deeds are
heavy, will prosper. And those whose scales are light, will be the ones who have put their
own ?self? in loss...

23102-103 Then those whose scales (of good deeds) are heavy, they are the successful. And
those whose scales are light, it is those who have wasted their own

All the Verses you Mentioned is TRUE. BUT
Your Deeds will Never Be ENOUGH; Thus, You Need God's MERCY to BE SAVED

arnoldyasin

All the Verses you Mentioned is TRUE. BUT
Your Deeds will Never Be ENOUGH; Thus, You Need God's MERCY to BE SAVED

Peace,

Now you are completely contradicting the Qur'anic verses you say are completely true. There is no verse that says your deeds will never be enough, all the verses say the direct opposite. All the time you condemning me for creating made up understandings and now it shows it is your own belief that your deeds are not enough which is not based on the Qur'an.

belH

Peace,

Now you are completely contradicting the Qur'anic verses you say are completely true. There is no verse that says your deeds will never be enough, all the verses say the direct opposite. All the time you condemning me for creating made up understandings and now it shows it is your own belief that your deeds are not enough which is not based on the Qur'an.

Let me ask a question

Did you ever ask God for forgiveness?

arnoldyasin

Let me ask a question

Did you ever ask God for forgiveness?

Peace,

This question is avoiding the fact that there are no counter arguments for you to give it seems. But I will answer it since it will show the difference

When I believed in it before, yes. I did something wrong and just asked forgiveness and hoped on God's mercy to ignore what I have done. So

I didn't take responsibility for what I had done, I just tried to avoid it.
I was more busy with "pleasing" and pleading God instead of correcting my wrong.
I kept doing wrong things, as the concept of forgiveness doesn't really urge you to reform yourself.
I feared God as a dictator, completely at His 'mercy', meaning I could get rewarded or punished whatever I did.
I didn't know I could compensate my wrong deeds by doing good as 11114 stated.
Because I didn't know of the compensation system, I only focussed on worship and be scared of God.

Now I know better that

I take full responsibility for what I have done and accept all consequences as a grown mature person, since I must accept that all I cause has an effect.
This makes me more careful on what I cause, since I now know that NO effect of my causes will be ignored, but my intention and knowledge of my deed will be taken in during the weighing.
I am now urged to participate in humaniterian action and help others.
I now do not commit wrongs conciously anymore as I know that every little scrap of wrongness accumalates and I will be confronted with it. And I want to do more good then wrong. In a sense, I feel my own scale, and I want it to become heavier, so i avoid anything that makes it lighter.
As I do not always can know all the effects I cause out of ignorance, I am always busy with helping others. But intention, knowledge and good deeds weigh 10x more, plus that God says I do not need to fear as long as I do good and try to avoid the bad, I do not need to worry.
I am not scared of God, I am only scared of the consequences of my own actions. I am now amazed by the justice system He has created, since it is now just me and my own deeds. This truly motivates self-development and improvement.
The compensation system urges participation in society, instead of selfish salvation.

belH

Peace,

But I will answer it since it will show the difference

Thank You

Now, I will tell you how I try (I do not succeed all the time) to be like based on what you wrote.

When I believed in it before, yes. I did something wrong and just asked forgiveness and hoped on God's mercy to ignore what I have done. So

I didn't take responsibility for what I had done, I just tried to avoid it.

If what I did had an effect on the society (Like stealing, hurting people), I knew that no matter how much I ask for forgiveness, God will not forgive me unless I fix what I did (if what I did can be fixable, or pay the "Kafara&quot.

But if my sin had no effect on the society (like eating pork, or not praying in time) I knew that God will forgive me if only I'm serious about not committing the sin again (God knows my intention).

I was more busy with "pleasing" and pleading God instead of correcting my wrong.

This is wrong, since to be forgiven, ones have to correct what they did if they can.

I kept doing wrong things, as the concept of forgiveness doesn't really urge you to reform yourself.

If somebody thinks that he can do any thing bad and not do Good because God will forgive him, thin he is Wicked or ignorant.

I feared God as a dictator, completely at His 'mercy', meaning I could get rewarded or punished whatever I did.

God is Mercy to the ones whom he knows deserve his Mercy (only him knows), but he also can punish whom he knows deserve his punishment.

I didn't know I could compensate my wrong deeds by doing good as 11114 stated.

only if he wishes to accept it (based on the condition and the type of sin)

Now I know better that

I take full responsibility for what I have done and accept all consequences as a grown mature person, since I must accept that all I cause has an effect.
This makes me more careful on what I cause, since I now know that NO effect of my causes will be ignored, but my intention and knowledge of my deed will be taken in during the weighing.
I am now urged to participate in humaniterian action and help others.
I now do not commit wrongs conciously anymore as I know that every little scrap of wrongness accumalates and I will be confronted with it. And I want to do more good then wrong. In a sense, I feel my own scale, and I want it to become heavier, so i avoid anything that makes it lighter.
As I do not always can know all the effects I cause out of ignorance, I am always busy with helping others. But intention, knowledge and good deeds weigh 10x more, plus that God says I do not need to fear as long as I do good and try to avoid the bad, I do not need to worry.
I am not scared of God, I am only scared of the consequences of my own actions. I am now amazed by the justice system He has created, since it is now just me and my own deeds. This truly motivates self-development and improvement.
The compensation system urges participation in society, instead of selfish salvation.

I wish I can be like this with a littel different, which what I said above and always believe no matter what I do from Good deeds are never enuogh to thank God for every thing he done for me and my familly; and most importantly, to ask for his forgiveness when I do Wrong.

Salam

arnoldyasin

Salaam Belal,

Now, I will tell you how I try (I do not succeed all the time) to be like based on what you wrote.
If what I did had an effect on the society (Like stealing, hurting people), I knew that no matter how much I ask for forgiveness, God will not forgive me unless I fix what I did (if what I did can be fixable, or pay the "Kafara&quot.

Then no forgiveness is involved but compensation. The bad is erased by the good (11114). If you want call the compensating "forgiveness" then you need to re-write the whole definition of the word.

But if my sin had no effect on the society (like eating pork, or not praying in time) I knew that God will forgive me if only I'm serious about not committing the sin again (God knows my intention).

Pig is called Rijs which means to pollute something. It is proven pig contains the wrong cholestrol and many parasites. Also pigfarms are the most polluting of all animalfarms. When you eat pig a couple of times, your body can handle it. It has nothing to do with sin but with health. You think God created this unlimited universe just to get mad at your diet?

He doesn't care what you do, He only gives us advice how to be succesful as a species.

When you consume pig or alcohol or drugs or rotten meat, your body can handle it a couple of times without any damage. But when you take it multiple times over a long period, your body will get damaged.

God is Mercy to the ones whom he knows deserve his Mercy (only him knows), but he also can punish whom he knows deserve his punishment. only if he wishes to accept it (based on the condition and the type of sin)

God makes the person feel the consequences of their deeds, good or bad. The knowledge and intention is taken account for. This is fair and straightforward. The above sounds more like a tyrannical king treating its slaves.

I wish I can be like this with a littel different, which what I said above and always believe no matter what I do from Good deeds are never enuogh to thank God for every thing he done for me and my familly; and most importantly, to ask for his forgiveness when I do Wrong.

I understand and respect your feelings on this issue. I just want to add that as long as you do good, God promises you, you do not need to fear, remember this, focus on the good and loose the fear as God orders you to do

2 62 VERILY, those who have attained to faith , as well as those who follow the Jewish faith, and the Christians, and the Sabians* -all who believe in God and the Last Day and do righteous deeds-shall have their reward with their Sustainer; and no fear need they have, and neither shall they grieve.

unknownuser

Salaams Br Arnold,

When you consume pig or alcohol or drugs or rotten meat, your body can handle it a couple of times without any damage. But when you take it multiple times over a long period, your body will get damaged.

You can't be serious, come on.

People all over the world eat pig and drink too and they actually live longer then those who don't eat pig and drink alcohol- so where is the damage?

Is the pig really in the quran or even alcohol............?

Thanks.

God Bless.

arnoldyasin

Salaams Br Arnold,

You can't be serious, come on.

People all over the world eat pig and drink too and they actually live longer then those who don't eat pig and drink alcohol- so where is the damage?

Is the pig really in the quran or even alcohol............?

Thanks.

God Bless.

Salaam Brother,

I have studied Biochemistry and Alcohol does damage your body-system, especially the brain. Pigmeat contains very bad cholestrols, which is the reason for increased heart-diseases. And your claim that people who do consume these live longer is not only proposterous it is false. For example in the West, people live longer because of the hygiene, better living conditions and the freedom of living. Without pig and alcohol they would even live longer and there would be less violence and a more productive enviroment because of it.

And yes, both are in the Quran, I know your understanding of the words and I do not agree with them. But this is offtopic so please keep that discussion in the other threads.

belH

Salaam Belal,

Then no forgiveness is involved but compensation. The bad is erased by the good (11114). If you want call the compensating "forgiveness" then you need to re-write the whole definition of the word.

I disagree with you; the quran shows us that we MUST ask for forgiveness (Twaba) when we commet sin, then we should do good, as you showed from Quran in order to prove that we are commeted to not commet the sin. (28-16, 36-27, 38-25, 7-23, 11-47, 7-161, 3-135, 4-48, 4-137, 5-18, 24-22 and other verses).

Pig is called Rijs which means to pollute something. It is proven pig contains the wrong cholestrol and many parasites. Also pigfarms are the most polluting of all animalfarms. When you eat pig a couple of times, your body can handle it. It has nothing to do with sin but with health.

He doesn't care what you do, He only gives us advice how to be succesful as a species.

When you consume pig or alcohol or drugs or rotten meat, your body can handle it a couple of times without any damage. But when you take it multiple times over a long period, your body will get damaged.

God makes the person feel the consequences of their deeds, good or bad. The knowledge and intention is taken account for. This is fair and straightforward. The above sounds more like a tyrannical king treating its slaves.

I agree

I understand and respect your feelings on this issue. I just want to add that as long as you do good, God promises you, you do not need to fear, remember this, focus on the good and loose the fear as God orders you to do

thanks for the advice, but do not forget that there are people who think (are sure) that they are doing Good when doing evil; these people God called the "The Loosers".
These people no matter what they do, their deeds are not accepted 6-88, 11-16, 2-217, 5-35, 49-2, 39-56, 47-9. Please note verse 18-103.

For example, when two people disagree on an issue that in the Religion, one is going to Heaven and the other is going to Hillfire (22-19); please note that both think that they are right.

That is why we have to Humble and accept that no matter how is our knowledge, there will always be someone is more knowlegeble in some issues, and therefore, God will test us and test our EGO by this person.

Salama

arnoldyasin

Salam,

I disagree with you; the quran shows us that we MUST ask for forgiveness (Twaba) when we commet sin, then we should do good, as you showed from Quran in order to prove that we are commeted to not commet the sin. (28-16, 36-27, 38-25, 7-23, 11-47, 7-161, 3-135, 4-48, 4-137, 5-18, 24-22 and other verses).

Tauba means return to the path and from there on do good. No asking for forgiveness involved but action through deeds and thoughts.

thanks for the advice, but do not forget that there are people who think (are sure) that they are doing Good when doing evil; these people God called the "The Loosers".

The Quran outlines what is good and righteous, follow that and you do not need to fear.

belH

Salam,

No asking for forgiveness involved but action through deeds and thoughts.

Your answer does not agree with the verses I mentioned, which emphasis on asking for forgiveness. Thus your opinion is yours and not God's.

arnoldyasin

Ghafara refers to protect something, we are going in circles now. There is no neglecting of 1 deed, so there is no forgiveness, only compensation.

Ghafara=to protect against the consequences/harm
Rahma/Raheem= to provide protection and nourishment as a womb
hittatun=to put down a burden/leave off
khati'at= wrongs/faults/mistakes
dhunoob=tail that drags behind an animal/the things that make people drag behind in society that blocks them for realizing their potential
athima=enervation, to take away energy

These are all right to be found in Classic Arabic dictionaries and good Tafseers. As 2147 rejects the concept of Forgiveness and 11114 says we must compensate all the Sayyi/wrong to others. And we must do Tauba/return to the path after doing wrong, then the verses become very clear

2147 We will set up the scales of justice on the Day of Resurrection, and no person will be wronged in the least. Though the good or evil be
of the weight of a mustard seed, We will bring it forth. We are Sufficient for reckoning and none can take account as We do.

2816 He said My Rabb! Lo! I have wronged my self, so protect me. Then He protected him. Lo! He is the Protector, the Provider of nourishment and protection.

God did this by providing guidance on how to protect himself, this is why He is Raheem, the provider of protection and nourishment.

3627 With the protection my Rabb has given me and made me of the honoured ones!

3825 So We protected him from the consequences; and lo! he had access to Our presence and a happy journey's end.

723 They said Our Rabb! We have wronged ourselves. If thou protect us not and do not provide us with your nourishment and protection, surely we are of the lost!

1147 He said My Rabb! Lo! in Thee do I seek refuge and protection that I should ask of Thee that whereof I have no knowledge. Unless Thou protect me and provide me with your nourishment I shall be among the lost.

7161 And when it was said to them Inhabit this habitation and eat of there whereever you like; and say "Relief us of our burden (hittatun=to put down a burden/leave off)" and enter the gate humbly. We shall protect you against the consequences (naghfir=to protect against the consequences/harm) of your wrongs (khati'at= wrongs/faults/mistakes). We shall make an enhancement (nazidu) for those that do right things (muhsinin=those that do right/are charitable).

3135 And those who, when they do an vile thing or wrong themselves, they call to mind (dhakara) Allah and implore protection (istaghfaru=implore protection against the wrong they have done) against the things that make them drag behind in society that blocks them for realizing their potential (dhunoob=tail that drags behind an animal)- and who can protect people against dragging behind in society except Allah - and will not knowingly persist the wrong they did.

448 Lo! Allah protects not that a partner (in authority) should be ascribed unto Him. He will, protect all save that to whom He will. Whoso ascribeth partners (in authority) to Allah, he hath indeed invented a thing that will take away their potential (athiman=enervation, to take away energy).

4137 Lo! those who are convinced (of the truth), then bury it forthemselves (kafara=to bury/cover) and then (again) acknowledge, then bury it forthemselves, and then increase in resistance to the truth, Allah will never protect them, nor will He guide them unto a way (since protection is gained by doing good, which is a freewill action 11114).

belH

Ghafara refers to protect something, we are going in circles now. There is no neglecting of 1 deed, so there is no forgiveness, only compensation.

Ghafara=to protect against the consequences/harm
Rahma/Raheem= to provide protection and nourishment as a womb
hittatun=to put down a burden/leave off
khati'at= wrongs/faults/mistakes
dhunoob=tail that drags behind an animal/the things that make people drag behind in society that blocks them for realizing their potential
athima=enervation, to take away energy

These are all right to be found in Classic Arabic dictionaries and good Tafseers.

You can mislead non-arab speakers by using your misleading dictionary, but you can not do that with an arbic speaker. ;D

arnoldyasin

You can mislead non-arab speakers by using your misleading dictionary, but you can not do that with an arbic speaker. ;D

These are all taken from Arabic dictionaries written by Arabs. One of them taught Arabic at the university of Medina. But you will use anything to ignore the truth.

Peace

nimnimak_11

Peace,
Respectfully.

God knows best.
I would say that God has created us to worship Him and that He is THe Most Merciful and also that He is TRULY The Most Merciful and shows us every single day just how Merciful He is He is giving us so much every single second and yet most people won't be thankful.

That's why we must be grateful to God and glorify Him all the time.
Glory be to our God.

Peace.

Peace Alen

Sincerely i thank you and all others who have replied to my question. The discussion has also been interesting.

I have a few questions from what you wrote and would appreciate your response Alen.

"God has created us to worship Him" What is your understanding of worship. In what way do you believe that God wants us to worship. How does he want us to worhship in your opinion?
What is your understanding of Mercy in a Quranic context. How do you think God has mercy on us?

nimnimak_11

Salam. This verse "Except whom your Lord has mercy upon; and for that he has created them." relates to many statements made by Allah. The first implication is that this relates to the creation event. Usually the use of the term "except" indicates there is a prior statement of a "general rule" An examination of Hud at 11118 shows the following "And if your Lord had pleased, He would have made people a single nation. And they cease not to differ" My Lord could have if he wished, made all of us a single nation, a nation of Muslims, however, this would not have prevented people from differing.

Here is where the exception comes into play, the exception is those upon whom my Lord has mercy, and he has created them not to differ, this is his mercy.

These verses describe a hypothetical situation to assist us in understanding our Lord's actions and mercy. Let us suppose we ask our Lord "Oh Lord why did you go through all this, for if you wished you could have made us all Muslims at birth" Our Lord's answer is even if he had made all of us Muslims at birth we would still differ. An examination of the Muslim community shows this statement to be correct.

There is a mercy in the exception, our Lord is teaching us that when he has mercy on us we will cease differing. Inshallah Muslims will cease differing because they seek our Lord's mercy.

Forgive me but i do not fully understand what you have wrote.
Do you mean that your understanding of this verse when it says "Except whom your Lord has mercy upon" is that this mercy was bestowed upon certain people before they were born?

And in the last part of your post

"There is a mercy in the exception, our Lord is teaching us that when he has mercy on us we will cease differing. Inshallah Muslims will cease differing because they seek our Lord's mercy."

Do you believe that either

When we try to be equal to one another that God's mercy is such that he will remove all differences in our hearts and it's past harms in society or community or family etc.
We will always differ untill God wills otherwise regardless of us and our actions

3)Other than the two understandings i have gained from your post.

nimnimak_11

God's mercy is also allowing us to live out our lives and doing what God knows what we are going to do anyway. He knows where we will end up on the Day of Reckoning. God says several times if were not for a preordained word...there would not be a single being on the face of the Earth. God could have easily showed Himself, resulting in the destruction of everything on Earth, resurrected it all as a new creation and sent us to Jannah or Jahannah. But we would say on that Day, but you didn't let me prove I was going to be a disbeliever? If I was given the chance, I would truly be among the guided! But we know as it says in the Qur'an even after they have disbelieved AFTER free choice to do whatever they want, they will say no guidance came, if it came directly to them they would be truly guided! but the disbelievers will make endless excuses, even when their lives were extended for time and they were provided with comforts and provisions to share with others on Earth, and given sharp senses, a wondrous brain and compassionate, strong hearts. There are some who are born limited and burdened, but God is the most Just of Judges, its up to Him. God is most merciful, he has allowed us to live out our lives and see the choices for ourselves, God says several times he truly created us for a purpose and not a playtime. He has allowed us to enjoy our lives for a while and to do what we see as the path for us, but there are times when God does intervene and destroy communities, to make examples out of them, but only after a messenger has been sent or warning, and it has been so for every community on the face of the Earth, so there will be no intercession with God on that grievous Day. God will be most just and merciful. And God truly knows where we deserve to go in the end.

Peace Soof

Is your understanding of God's Mercy such that he gives us repite and does not punish us directly by allowing us to live on with our lives even though God is aware of what we will be like all through to the end of our life?

Al_Araf

Salam nimnimak. Allah is Malik/King. When Allah is describing a general rule, he also if neccesary provides the exceptions.

This is typical of law, you will see this on traffic signs as an example No parking Monday through Friday, except Saturdays and Sundays.

Note the general rule is provided first, No parking Monday through Friday... then the exception.. except Saturday and Sunday. What does this mean? This means you cannot park there Monday through Friday. You can park there Saturday and Sunday.

The same analysis applies in the Quran extract. What happened here was the prior general rule had been ignored, and the exception was posted. This was an error in quotation. The poster should have begun with the general rule, then provided the exception.

How does this work? Like this And if your Lord had pleased, He would have made people a single nation. And they cease not to differ Except whom your Lord has mercy upon; and for that he has created them

This is why i said "Oh Lord why did you go through all this, for if you wished you could have made us all Muslims at birth" Our Lord's answer is even if he had made all of us Muslims at birth we would still differ. The exception is those upon whom my Lord has mercy, and he has created them not to differ.

I appreciate your thoughtful questions. I believe that Allah created us not to differ, and we are misled by our weaknesses in assuming we know better, and the shaitan. I find this to be true of all human beings, generally babies dont differ, as they get older their tendency to differ gets worse and worse, and the cause of it is the false assumption that man's intelligence is the final arbiter of right and wrong, instead of the correct assumption that Allah's intelligence is the final arbiter of right or wrong.

There is also the conclusion that there are those whom Allah created from birth who do not have the ability to differ with Allah. Allah forgive me if I make a mistake here, I beleive that some Malaik/Angels are one kind of creation that are created without the ability to differ with Allah. Of course the shaitan is one who was created with the ability to differ.

Does this mean Allah cannot create some men who lack the ability to differ, no Allah is all powerful he can make men of this type. Allah can also make men who are created not to differ at some point in their life, maybe at 30, or 40 or 50. The language of the Quran allows for this conclusion as well.

There is a discussion that arises out of this as to whether those who obey without differing are created at birth have any choice in the matter And whether those that become those who obey later in life were created that way and if they have any choice in the matter

There are also those who are created with the ability to differ, demonstrate that ability to differ, yet refuse through sheer force of will to differ with Allah no matter what the consequences. Allah is the finest creator, he makes things with no equal.

I hope this assists you in your understanding of the verses, true understanding of the Quran is with Allah alone. Your question forced me to think in directions I had not thought before, for this I thank you. I am sure there are many more directions that I am unaware of right now. May Allah bless your walk towards him.