What are the Furtherst Mosque and the Sacred Mosque (17:1)
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Peace DC2,
'Al-Aqsa' is a form of superlative which means 'the most distant.' Therefore, the place to which the Prophet was taken must be a mosque, and not a place where a mosque was to be established later, nor a place where a mosque had once stood. This place must be very far from the Al-Haram Mosque. It need not be actually built, as the Al-Haram Mosque itself was at that time merely an open space around the Ka'ba and not a building. also the term "al aqsa" would suit the masjid in medina as it was at the time the most distant masjid in the islamic world.
There are a few problems that are exposed with Ahmad Muhammad 'Arafa's theory when the meaning of "al-aqsa" is considered.
Firstly, when the god uses a description such as "most distant", he really means "most distant". This story is not being told from the eyes of prophet. But even from a simple Arabian desert dweller point of view, the distance between the locations of the city named Mecca and the city named Medina can hardly be considered "most distant".
Secondly, he relies on Hadith and Sira to conclude that the location of the "farthest Mosque" is in the city Called Medina because that was the farthest location where the followers of the prophet prostrated. However, those same Hadiths and Sira tell us that prior to the migration to Medina, many of the followers of the prophet migrated to Ethiopia, which is of course much further than Medina. So this completely demolishes his theory, unless he now wants to suggest that Ethiopia is the location.
It is good to see some official Egyptian writers finally coming around and challenging the illogical traditional accounts, however there is still a great deal of progress that they need to make and they can't for example rely on the very Hadiths and Sira that they are trying to challenge as sources of evidence.
Peace,
Ayman
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Secondly, he relies on Hadith and Sira to conclude that the location of the "farthest Mosque" is in the city Called Medina because that was the farthest location where the followers of the prophet prostrated. However, those same Hadiths and Sira tell us that prior to the migration to Medina, many of the followers of the prophet migrated to Ethiopia, which is of course much further than Medina. So this completely demolishes his theory, unless he now wants to suggest that Ethiopia is the location.
peace ayman
if we were to take ethiopia as the location of masjid alaqsa..the rest of the verse wouldnt make sense as it is not claimed in the historical accounts, the quran or even the hadiths that mohammed ever visited etheopia by night or otherwise and which signs then would god be bringing him there to show? also perhaps masjid really does refer to a solid structure for muslims to prostrate in or around and perhaps those muslims in etheopia were never afforded one or the ritual of prayer had not been instigated for them as they were removed from the main fold.also there is evidence apparently that the masjid in medina was originally called al aqsa though i dont know what this evidence is so you can consider this point moot for now.
take care
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What is the true Qiblah? The First house of God is Aqsa/dome of the rock .. i.e the first Qibla ... the second house of God is Masjid al haram .. i.e. second Qibla ... Qibla is just direction ....... anyway you point directs to GOD ... He's everywhere
Where should we make Pilgramige to? Pilgrimmage is to the bait al ateeq (Old House .. i.e. Aqsa/dome of the rock)
What is the Sacred Mosque and what is the Fartherst Mosque? Haram is Qaba or MAsjid al haram, Aqsa is the Dome of the rock.Aqsa mosque
Aren't we splitting into sects (and therefore going against the teachings of the Qur'an) if we change our Qiblah and Site of Pilgramige from ~99.999% of Muslims? Muslims today follow garbage ... i.e the so called hadith of Mohammed which are ALL lies .. the only hadith we must follwo is Quran and go to the torah and bible to confirm it.
Dosen't the Qur'an say that we will be protected in his Mosque (Jerusalem dosen't seem very safe!!!)? Masjid-al haraam is the secure mosque in the land of security as was requested by Abraham to GOD to make is safe and secure.
Hope this answers you quesitons
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Peace DC2,
if we were to take ethiopia as the location of masjid alaqsa..the rest of the verse wouldnt make sense as it is not claimed in the historical accounts, the quran or even the hadiths that mohammed ever visited etheopia by night or otherwise and which signs then would god be bringing him there to show?
The signs talked about in 171 are described in Chapter 53.
Also, Ethiopia is more likely to be the place where David and Solomon lived. Unlike Palestine it has mountains, is rich in iron ore and the hoopoe can fly a short distance from it to the kingdom of Sabaa.
also perhaps masjid really does refer to a solid structure for muslims to prostrate in or around and perhaps those muslims in etheopia were never afforded one or the ritual of prayer had not been instigated for them as they were removed from the main fold.
There is nothing in the great reading that says that "masjid" is for "ritual prayer". Also, according to those same traditions, the Mosque in Yathrib was not a solid structure and it had no roof and the pulpit was the trunk of a palm tree. Also, a physical structure is not what makes any building a "masjid". So clearly a physical structure is irrelevant.
also there is evidence apparently that the masjid in medina was originally called al aqsa though i dont know what this evidence is so you can consider this point moot for now.
Exactly. On the other hand, there is plenty of evidence in Chapter 53 and the clear meanings of the words "masjid" and "aqsa" that indicate that it is at heaven.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Sirohey,
Dosen't the Qur'an say that we will be protected in his Mosque (Jerusalem dosen't seem very safe!!!)? Masjid-al haraam is the secure mosque in the land of security as was requested by Abraham to GOD to make is safe and secure.
The shrine in Mecca isn't safe either. Just try to proclaim the following over there
Muslims today follow garbage ... i.e the so called hadith of Mohammed which are ALL lies .. the only hadith we must follwo is Quran and go to the torah and bible to confirm it.
You will quickly see how safe it is in Mecca when you get arrested and tortured or beaten up by the angry crowd of pious garbage followers around you. This is reality.
Saudi Arabia and Mecca is not "the land of security" by any measure.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Sirohey,
The shrine in Mecca isn't safe either. Just try to proclaim the following over there
You will quickly see how safe it is in Mecca when you get arrested and tortured or beaten up by the angry crowd of pious garbage followers around you. This is reality.
Saudi Arabia and Mecca is not "the land of security" by any measure.
Peace,
Ayman
Compare the battles fought in Jerusalem to the battles fought around the Sacred Mosque recorded in history ..... all is relative ... "fight them not at the Sacred mosque .. till they fight you" ... its all relative my friends ... Masjid-al-Haram .. is Kaaba and the surrounding Mosque. Both the Houses are the Houses of GOD ..... actually every house belongs to GOD ...... He's just trying to tell Mankind that He is multifaceted .. but we are so single minded and foolish that we cannot see that ..... with our hearts!!
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Peace Sirohey,
Compare the battles fought in Jerusalem to the battles fought around the Sacred Mosque recorded in history ..... all is relative ... "fight them not at the Sacred mosque .. till they fight you" ... its all relative my friends ... Masjid-al-Haram .. is Kaaba and the surrounding Mosque.
"Al-masjid al-haram" is not "kaaba". We are told in the great reading that "al-bayt al-haram"/the inviolable house is the "kaaba"/base. The god doesn't choose words haphazardly.
The stone cube in Mecca cannot be the house that whoever ENTERS IT is safe. How many people can you fit in the cube? Again, the god doesn't choose his words haphazardly but very precisely.
Both the Houses are the Houses of GOD ..... actually every house belongs to GOD ...... He's just trying to tell Mankind that He is multifaceted .. but we are so single minded and foolish that we cannot see that ..... with our hearts!!
Do you know what is being foolish about? If walking down your street, you come accross some people wrapped in towels spinning around a black stone cube, what would you think about those people? Your natural instinct (your heart) would surely think that they are some sort of foolish cult. The ritual is the same so why should our reaction be different to the same EXACT thing going on in Mecca? Why when it comes to Mecca should we suppress what our heart naturally sees and knows? This is the very definition of foolishness.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Soof,
What is your understanding of the Kaa'ba. Because I am greatly puzzled by it.
As with all Arabic words, the feminine word "kaaba" has the same meaning as the masculine "kaab" but the feminine sometimes adds a sense of classification. For example, "al-mayta" in 53 is the class of animals which are found to be already dead. It is not a specific animal.
The etymology of both "kaab" and "kaaba" point to the original meaning being that of "base". Thus the word has come to mean "heel" which is the base that we stand on. It is the base of the foot and the whole body. Similarly, the base of the shoe is called "kaab". In rural areas of Arabia, the term "kaab al-wady" is still used to denote "the base of the valley". The term "mukaab" means cube, which is of course a shape with the same base on all sides.
The context of the usage of the word in the great reading confirms this meaning. For example, we are told that the animal offerings for the feast (hagg) should reach the base. This is normal since the base is where everyone would be gathered during the feast (hagg). Also, we are told that the inviolable house where no partners are set up with the god is made to be the base. Whoever enters the base is secure. This being a class also means that this is not a specific place but any place that is established as the base.
The concept of the "safe base" is a well known common universal concept. Even children know it and thus watch them as they naturally designate a "base" as the safe place when they play war games or a game of tag.
We once again see the great reading combining the conceptual essence (idealism and essentialism philosophies) with the empirical verification of realism and the reality in the use of language of constructivism to provide a very powerful message of truth that destroys falsehood using so few words. I think that the great reading has established a new and as of yet ungrasped philosophical discipline. This great reading cannot be from anyone else other than the god.
On the other hand, a pagan black stone cube that is irrationally adored in a certain culture is not a universal concept and certainly has nothing to do with truth or safety.
Peace,
Ayman
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peace soof,
Re "kaaba"
See the pivotal sign of 597, which in my opinion puts a significant dent in the traditional view.
http//reflekterselv.com/freemind/index.php?topic=9837.msg111108#msg111108Background reading
http//reflekterselv.com/freemind/index.php?topic=11674.0 -
What about the history that surrounds the Kaa'ba?
Apparently when Muhammad came back to Mecca after overcoming the opposition, he destroyed the idols in the Kaa'ba and made it a testament to Monotheism. So people who celebrate the Hajj around the Kaa'ba should be celebrating the one-ness of God if Muhammad did allegedly destroy the idols of the Arabs. But I do not understand the relevance for a black cube in a desert for people to circle round in such a logical and pragmatic Religion that is Islam. Your description and analysis makes more sense to me, but then why have so many translations made the Kaa'ba refer to the Kaa'ba of the Arabs? And was it really built by Abraham?
Thanks for the link Wakas I'm reading through it now.
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Peace Soof,
What about the history that surrounds the Kaa'ba?
What about it? Do you believe it to be true or false?
And was it really built by Abraham?
No. It is an indisputable fact that the structure named Kaaba was built by the Saudis in 1996. They built it just like any building. They made a foundation, built the walls and the ceiling and then when they were done they said to everyone "this is now your Kaaba".
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace
Using the Qur'an as the differentiator, there is no mention of Muhammad returning to the Kaa'ba and destroying the idols. If it happens I think it would bear a lot of significance as destruction of idols is mentioned through two pious people Abraham and Moses. It is easy for me to accept that an abrogation has occured in the Qur'an through translation just as abrogation has occured in crime and punishment (thievery) and hitting wives and concubines/war captives as slaves for sex. It is harder for me to accept I have to go to Saudi Arabia to circle a monument, it's the only thing that puzzles me in the Qur'an, it seems out of place. But then God says
"Then let them complete the rites prescribed for them, perform their vows, and (again) circumambulate the Ancient House.""Then let them complete the rites prescribed for them, perform their vows, and (again) circumambulate the Ancient House."
Where is the Ancient House if not the Arab-built Kaa'ba? Is God asking us to "circumambulate" (probably not the word meant in English) a house in Jerusalem or is this metaphorical?
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What would you reply to Progod's reply on the 597 thread?
I dont think Progod's view is affecting my main point, which is it is discussing a decision making vehicle or a management structure.
So we can pick one as the decision making vehicle / management structure al kaaba OR al bayt al haram, either of which significantly dents the traditional view. The only way this dent can be minimised is to say it means an inert meaning with no active function, e.g. "standing" like some translators have used, but of course this poses significant problems for the rest of the verse. Proof of this is to read the translations of this verse, as all introduce problems by their word choice.
The context of the verses are over-seeing / regulation / structure during this period, hence mentioning a decision making vehicle / management structure.
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I found the part in bold to be deeply offensive. How have Sunnis and Shiites submitted to other than God? Do you see them as Kafirs and Mushriks destined for eternal hell?
Just so you know, Sunnis and Shiites refer to themselves as Muslims. This doesn't change the fact that they factually speaking have differences between them, therefore they have different denominations; Sunni and Shia.Peace,
Respectfully.Sunnis and shias have submitted to other then The Real God by rejecting Quran and accepting books of hadith. They have also rejected the name Muslims for themselves and accepted new names sunnis and shias. They have also implemented new laws to the Quran which they push away in favour of the hadith.
Most importantly sunnis and shias are killing each other in Jerusalem, at the Mosque where true believers in God would never take a life, let alone a life of a brother. Mosque Al-Aqsa is very important to us, The Real Muslims, but not so much for Hamas and AlFath, they prefer AK-47 and shooting at potential Muslims and they also prefer violence instead of talking about problems.
Glory be to our God.
Peace. -
Salam Layth
You have been able to fully convince me and I know except Jerusalem as my Qiblah. hail
Just out of question, have you ever made pilgrimage to Jerusalem and/or Mecca?Peace
Asfandyar
Peace
Convinced in a few days. Very suspicious! Please don't start at the deep end. Start from the very beginning. Research things yourself (at timed intervals I believe this to be the salat and the zakat being the implementation of what you have learnt). Be very careful not to fall into the trap of 'idol-worshipping' Layth, Bukhari or whatever. If this is a problem avoid visiting this site and visit sites such as
Roshan
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Salaam all
This is my understanding of this issue
I noticed that all translations translate "bait " as "house". It's home" and there's a difference. An empty house is not a home. In the qur'aan "bait" is either having people living in it, or is a concept. For example, who are "aalul bait"? Are they one family living in a house, or those members of that family, no matter where they live, but share the same level of piety? Also, the verse speaking of "baitul 3ankabout the spider web" and describing it as the weakest of homes". This description alludes to the lack of safety to any creature that enters it, and not a physical weakness.Albaitul 7araam, in my opinion, is "the home" in which duels the backbone of the system of God, the straight path. It's not a coincidence that the verses describing the straight path (6151-153) start by Come and I will recite to you what God make inaccessible/prohibited (7arrama) to you...This is the home where everyone, irrespective of their faith, will feel safe; This is the Home of God, the obedience of the inaccessible (almasjidul 7araam).
From there the messenger went in his noctrne journey to paradise, the farthest/absolute obedience, where there's no conflicting interests or fighting desires, and there he encountered Jibril.
Hajjul bait debating and teaching these concepts of siraatul mustaqeem/straight path. The derivatives of the root Ha Jeem Jeem as used in the qur'aan all direct towards debating and discussing. We are called to dbate with people, by (and not to) the concepts of the straight path.
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Peace sister Samia,
Salaam all
This is my understanding of this issue
I noticed that all translations translate "bait " as "house". It's home" and there's a difference. An empty house is not a home. In the qur'aan "bait" is either having people living in it, or is a concept. For example, who are "aalul bait"? Are they one family living in a house, or those members of that family, no matter where they live, but share the same level of piety? Also, the verse speaking of "baitul 3ankabout the spider web" and describing it as the weakest of homes". This description alludes to the lack of safety to any creature that enters it, and not a physical weakness.Albaitul 7araam, in my opinion, is "the home" in which duels the backbone of the system of God, the straight path. It's not a coincidence that the verses describing the straight path (6151-153) start by Come and I will recite to you what God make inaccessible/prohibited (7arrama) to you...This is the home where everyone, irrespective of their faith, will feel safe; This is the Home of God, the obedience of the inaccessible (almasjidul 7araam).
From there the messenger went in his noctrne journey to paradise, the farthest/absolute obedience, where there's no conflicting interests or fighting desires, and there he encountered Jibril.
Hajjul bait debating and teaching these concepts of siraatul mustaqeem/straight path. The derivatives of the root Ha Jeem Jeem as used in the qur'aan all direct towards debating and discussing. We are called to dbate with people, by (and not to) the concepts of the straight path.
Thank you for enlightening us with this new translation/understanding. I totally agree that bait is better translated as home. One question remains would hajjulbait be carried out in one of the ashur alhurrum or can it be done anytime during the year? I know this has been discussed many times before but maybe with this new translation, we can come to a new understanding of the concept.
Peace,
Hadi
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Salaam all
This is my understanding of this issue
I noticed that all translations translate "bait " as "house". It's home" and there's a difference. An empty house is not a home. In the qur'aan "bait" is either having people living in it, or is a concept. For example, who are "aalul bait"? Are they one family living in a house, or those members of that family, no matter where they live, but share the same level of piety? Also, the verse speaking of "baitul 3ankabout the spider web" and describing it as the weakest of homes". This description alludes to the lack of safety to any creature that enters it, and not a physical weakness..
Salaam
bait ankabout is not spider web as spider thread is five time stronger then the steel of same thickness and can stretch to four times its own length, to put it in technical terms spider thread from the point of its resistence to breaking and the extent it can strech before breaking is a material the like of wich doese not exist.spiders never live in houses they dont live togather at all ,
The female of many spices places the egg sac on a stalk, raps leaves about it attach it to stone or cover it with smooth silk before abandoning it. Other females guard the egg sac or carry it eother in their jaws ot attached to the spinnerets, if a female loses an egg sac she makes searching movements and may pick up a piblbe or a peice of paper and attach it to the spinnerets.
And that is what God called bait ankaboot and not the Web.
the house she choses to lay eggs in and not the web where she waits for her break fast eat
peace
