Did the word Qur'an exist before the Glorious Qur'an
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When I say, "made words up" it wasn't clear enough. I mean God added new definitions. Just like Islam was not Islam untill God mentioned it but s-l-m was there. in context
This day I have perfected your religion for you and completed My favour unto you, and have chosen for you as religion al-Islam.
53Wakas, what I am asking is was the word Qur'an used before? If it was a common word as you say it is, are there any mention in Islamic literature of the word Qur'an that is not referring to the divine revelation of God? Or in essence did God redefine words e.g. Islam and Qur'an.
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s-l-m has the definitions you used. But when God used it it took on a new form, which was devotion to God alone (meaning of Islam). Just like the Qur'an is THE Recitation, whereas there may have been other recitiations before. God essentially made new words, that inherited new meanings.
Peace
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peace soof,
"quran" is used in various contexts this quran (implying the presence of other qurans), a quran, arabic quran, recitation, al quran.
Similarly, the word "islam" is used as a common term, e.g. with reference to Solomon, where he asks people to come in "islam" to him.
Feel free to study the occurrences yourself.
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peace soof,
"quran" is used in various contexts this quran (implying the presence of other qurans), a quran, arabic quran, recitation, al quran.
Similarly, the word "islam" is used as a common term, e.g. with reference to Solomon, where he asks people to come in "islam" to him.
Feel free to study the occurrences yourself.
Now those contexts you used are those contexts IN the Qur'an or before the Qur'an. If they were after than its not what I was asking about. Is the reference to Solomon what is in the Qur'an or an Arabic tale before the Qur'an. Because if it is in the Qur'an then we could argue the definition Islam is given so Solomon would say "devotion to God" in whatever language he spoke, but in the Qur'an it is now Islam. I would like to know so I can see it as well.
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does this mean that God created the word, just as the word Islam was created? Surely Qura would be a common word used in Arabia?
Peace Belal
This is my theory
I think that the quraan has derived many new words from the roots already known. Many words were not used before, but they were nevertheless understood. This phenomenon is still going on with new situations calling for new words, for example "thallaja or barrad both are understood as meaning refregerator". That's why, in my opinion, people said about the quraan magic, because it was like a new language but they were able to understand it. They also referred to it as "3arabi and a3jami clear and not clear" clear in the meaning, unfamiliar in words.
Moreover, we do not have any evidence of a well developped Arabic language prior to the quraan. -
That is also my understanding regarding new words from known roots. I'm unsure about Arabic not being a well-developed language before the Qur'an when the Arabs were reknowned poets and there was a lot of respect for members of the community who could recite stories of their ancestors or could produce poetry at the drop of the hat. Why do you think the Qur'an made people weep when they heard it? Because they knew poetry and its beauty and the Qur'an was more sublime than their most exquisite poetry in its simplicity and how messages were conveyed on several levels. This could only be comprehended if there was a language and a canon of literature before hand. If there was not a developed language that people understood and appreciated the Final revelation would not have come in that language. The Qur'an didn't perfect the Arabic language, it was already there.
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If the only evidence is "jahili poetry", this is a completely forged evidence. Many poems contain expressions specific to the quran, to the extent that some critics of the quran/islam/Muhammad claim that Muhammad collected his "quraan" from poetry. I do not imagine that peoples who wrote this amount of long poems did not write anything else. No archeological evidence of any writings in developped Arabic was found anywhere but there is evidence of simplified arabic. Even these jahili poems are claimed to have been known by heart, but no evidence that they ever existed before quraan.
As for being the reason people weep, I just wonder if this would be the normal reaction for appreciation of poetry. I believe that some people weep when they read a translation of the quran.
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I do not know, about archeological remains of Arabic literature. It seems far fetched that there were no Scribes before the Qur'an and all of a sudden there were scribes to record it...Also explain sura 96, Arabs surely are not an anomaly in reference to that sura. Obviously they didn't just know poetry. But I do not know enough about their literature pre-Qur'an, if it existed. Still its far-fetched.
I do not believe The Qur'an is poetry you misunderstood, I'm saying the people who appreciate literary value, would recognise the sublime nature of the Qur'an which is BEST conveyed in Arabic. You know that when the Qur'an is translated into other languages it loses a lot. The Arabic language has more nuances and complexity that the English language cannot convey. People can still get inspired/emotional by reading the English translation, and they would know truly the sublime nature of the Qur'an if they had experience in reading literature or poetry. An illiterate or someone who cannot read may not get that level of the Qur'an which supports my point that the Arabs must have known of literature and the nature of their language, otherwise they would not have recognised it as such beautiful revelation and may not have follow down to the knees weeping at the beauty of it.
Say Believe therein or believe not, lo! those who were given knowledge before it, when it is read unto them, fall down prostrate on their faces, adoring, Saying Glory to our Lord! Verily the promise of our Lord must be fulfilled. They fall down on their faces, weeping, and it increaseth humility in them.
17107-109The monotheists/people of the book who lived in Arabia when they heard it were stricken and knew it was from their Lord. This could be due to the voice, the quality of the language and the simplicity. All of which you recognise as a learned person. The Qur'an did not come down and all of a sudden create the definite Arabic language to convey the message. God said he revealed this as an Arabic Qur'an.
Lo! We have revealed it, a Lecture in Arabic, that ye may understand. 122
Lo! We have appointed it a Lecture, in Arabic that haply ye may understand. 433
A Lecture in Arabic, containing no crookedness, that haply they may ward off (evil). 3928Which means there IS and WAS an Arabic language before the Qur'an...
peace
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I do not know, about archeological remains of Arabic literature. It seems far fetched that there were no Scribes before the Qur'an and all of a sudden there were scribes to record it...Also explain sura 96, Arabs surely are not an anomaly in reference to that sura. Obviously they didn't just know poetry. But I do not know enough about their literature pre-Qur'an, if it existed. Still its far-fetched.
I would be surprised if Arabic was a well developped language of a people who knew how to write and had fine knowledge of poetry and literature, yet we can hardly find any documented piece of literature, not even one! Instead, we find parchement with a simple, plain language, stripped of any beauty, and mixed with Greek or other languages. Languages much older than Arabic left documents, even on stone. As for chapter 96 is it about arabs? Mind you, I did not say there was no language or people did not write, I said the language was simple, but with a great potential in the form of the root system.
Say Believe therein or believe not, lo! those who were given knowledge before it, when it is read unto them, fall down prostrate on their faces, adoring, Saying Glory to our Lord! Verily the promise of our Lord must be fulfilled. They fall down on their faces, weeping, and it increaseth humility in them.
17107-109It's the knowledge they already had knowledge of, not the letters, that made them emotional. Nothing points to them knowing arabic before.
The monotheists/people of the book who lived in Arabia when they heard it were stricken and knew it was from their Lord.
Yet we do not have any early translations of the divine books, although there were many pious people of the book (living in Arabia). What were they reading? Were they "arabs"? Or maybe they were not even in Arabia?!
Lo! We have revealed it, a Lecture in Arabic, that ye may understand. 122
Lo! We have appointed it a Lecture, in Arabic that haply ye may understand. 433
A Lecture in Arabic, containing no crookedness, that haply they may ward off (evil). 3928The word you translate as (in Arabic ي is actually an adjective, meaning clear, self explanatory, expressive. From this root are derived the verbs 3araba, a3raba and 3arraba, which mean speak for, express, explain, clarify..
( ة
. . " ".
" . " .
.
. " .This verb is used in hadith literature, and is used in linguistics to mean grammatical analysis.
The quran createWhich means there IS and WAS an Arabic language before the Qur'an...
I am not contesting this...but what kind of language? It was a layman language, not a highly developped one. The quran DID create a beautiful, rich language from a marginal, underdvelopped language.
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RE People of the Book. They were mainly Jews, Christians & Sabians, as God mentions them, no? Therefore they had their Torah, or Peshitta (I'm not testifying to its validity, only stating what they may have had) and whatever scripture the Sabians had. Remember the Qur'an has geographic relevance and historic relevance even though it is for all time so it is likely God refers to these religions because they were known to the African Peninsula at that time. If the Qur'an was recited to them in Arabic, and they heard it, understood it, and reacted in they way stated in the Qur'an then they were Arabic speakers. The Qur'an was recited in Quraysh Arabic, the dialect of the Prophet. If he recited it to them in this language AND they understood the words...then they understood Arabic.
RE Arabic root.
And if We had appointed it a Lecture in a foreign tongue they would assuredly have said If only its verses were expounded? What! A foreign tongue and an Arab? - Say unto them (O Muhammad) For those who believe it is a guidance and a healing; and as for those who disbelieve, there is a deafness in their ears, and it is blindness for them. Such are called to from afar.
4144The language Arabic existed and it may have had the name Arabic. It was a language the people of Arabia RECOGNISED. Which is why God gives a counterargument What! A foreign tongue and an Arab? Inferring that the tongue Muhammad is preaching in is indeed the language of his people not an adjective or a verb, but a noun, being possessive ie belonging to the people of Arabia.
It is most probable the name of their language and their nationality is derived from the root you mentioned. God is simply reiterating the point that it is sent in Arabic to a people who had no previous knowledge, ie who's forefathers were far from the straight path. And from that point on it is also the revelation for all people, for all time, which is why it was revealed in such a pragmatic, literal language at a place that was essentially the centre of the World. There should be revelations for every community before the Qur'an. In many different languages. If we look at the Bhagavad Gita we can infer that possibly there is revelation in those Sanskrit Scriptures, but that is open to interpretation. But thanks for informing me about the Root of Arabic, its something I never knew before handshake
When referring to Arabia I am referring to the African Peninsula that encompassed Jerusalem, Mecca, Medina and was separated from India by the Arabic Sea and from Africa by the Red Sea. When the Revelation came to Muhammad he was always in Arabia, references are made to where he is throughout the Qur'an. God even swears by the City Muhammad is in and calls him a resident. Indeed if anyone came to him and heard the revelation they were in Arabia at the time. They may not have lived there but if they understood what he was preaching then clearly they spoke Arabic.
We agree on several levels, and I have learnt a few things from you so Peace.
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Peace sister Samia,
The word you translate as (in Arabic ي is actually an adjective, meaning clear, self explanatory, expressive. From this root are derived the verbs 3araba, a3raba and 3arraba, which mean speak for, express, explain, clarify..
( ة
. . " ".
" . " .
.
. " .
This verb is used in hadith literature, and is used in linguistics to mean grammatical analysis.It would be interesting to find out how the term came to mean "grammatical analysis" before Arabic "grammatical analysis" was invented by Sibaweh. Therefore, I don't think it means that.
In the great reading the form "A3RAB" is used to denote people of the wilderness in contrast to people of the city. The term is also used to mean "untouched/virgin". So it seems to have to do with wild and virgin. This is in line with your observation about the language being a layman language, i.e. an informal street language.
Ironically, Lisan Al-3arab also says the following about the meaning
. .
So it means "talking rudely". This meaning is not aligned with "clear, self explanatory, expressive" but it is aligned with "wild/untamed/untouched" and with the usage in the great reading for describing "people of the wilderness". I think that the relationship between A3RAB and 3RBY is the same as with all the forms of AF3AL and F3LY. For example, ANBAT (Nabataeans) NBTY (having to do with Nabataeans), AWThAN (idols) WThNY (having to do with idols), etc. So 3RBY would mean "having to do with the people of the wilderness". So it is the untamed and unrefined language of the people of the wilderness. It is an informal street language and not a formal language of civilization, religion, and literature.
So when we hear about the great reading being "3rby mbin" we are not hearing about it being "clear and clear". We are hearing about it being "wild/informal and clear". This is why we hear in the great reading about people at the time asking for it to be in a foreign (A3GMY) language. The formal prestige languages of religion and literature were all foreign languages at the time, Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic. However, the god sends his message in the language of the people of the messenger. The messenger was from the UMIYIN (the common people) in contrast to the people of the book who know the foreign language of the previous books. This is not a religious distinction. It is a social one of the common people against the religious and political elite. You would have the same exact situation today if the messenger came to the people of Egypt. The god would send his message in Egyptian colloquial street language and not in Classical Arabic. However, people would ask for it to be in Classical Arabic because this is perceived as the proper language of religious prestige.
The quran create
I am not contesting this...but what kind of language? It was a layman language, not a highly developped one. The quran DID create a beautiful, rich language from a marginal, underdvelopped language.This is what is amazing about the great reading. The god takes a mundane, imperfect, inconsistent and uncivilized human language and composes this beautiful, rich, consistent and powerful message. This is in itself a very powerful philosophical paradigm.
I had a discussion with Anwar about the Arabic language in this thread
http//reflekterselv.com/freemind/index.php?topic=9596565.msg168098#msg168098
It would be great if you can help Anwar out. I want to make sure that my arguments are solid by having people poke at them and try to demolish them from different angles.
Peace,
Ayman
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Salaam Ayman
According to maqaayeesul lugha , the root "3RB" has three meanings; you chose one and I chose another. Whatever is chosen leads to the fact that the word "3rabi" is a translatable word and does not mean the language we know now.
So when we hear about the great reading being "3rby mbin" we are not hearing about it being "clear and clear".
The pattern of "mubeen MuF3IL" is an active participle of the verb "abaan clarified". It does not mean "clear" but "clarifier", so it's clear and clarifier clear words (already known) and they clarify others (unknown before). It's also the explanation of "3arabi and a3jami" clear and alien.
It would be great if you can help Anwar out. I want to make sure that my arguments are solid by having people poke at them and try to demolish them from different angles.
I did have a similar discussion with Anwar
http//reflekterselv.com/freemind/index.php?topic=14531.msg152846#msg152846
(The beginning of our discussion is from page 6)
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Peace Samia,
According to maqaayeesul lugha , the root "3RB" has three meanings; you chose one and I chose another. Whatever is chosen leads to the fact that the word "3rabi" is a translatable word and does not mean the language we know now.
I agree. However, the use of the various forms of the root "3RB" in the great reading points to "wild/untamed/natural". Even in 1337, from the passages around it, we can see it is most likely referring to natural law.
The pattern of "mubeen MuF3IL" is an active participle of the verb "abaan clarified". It does not mean "clear" but "clarifier", so it's clear and clarifier clear words (already known) and they clarify others (unknown before).
Clear doesn't necessarily imply "already known". Something new can be clear too. I agree with "MuBIN", meaning clarifier or clarifying. Of course, "BaYiN" means clear.
It's also the explanation of "3arabi and a3jami" clear and alien.
I disagree. Alien or foreign is not the opposite of clear. We are having this discussion in a foreign/alien language since our native/natural language is Arabic. Yet, this discussion is clear. Notice how even in English, "AL-A3RAB", the wild/natural people are described as "the natives".
I did have a similar discussion with Anwar
http//reflekterselv.com/freemind/index.php?topic=14531.msg152846#msg152846
(The beginning of our discussion is from page 6)Sister, could you update the link because this link to the temporary URL during the forum transition is now gone.
Thanks and peace,
Ayman
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A slight digression so I apologize in advance - mods, if you want to fork (branch) this discussion, please do so,
Judging by the terminology used in this thread, I am guessing this discussion may have triggered around some elements in the Text of the Poets (surat-ush-shu'araa)? What I would want to know is why does the mention of poets pop out all of a sudden in the chapter? Any insight would be appreciated by both bro Ayman and sis Samia.
PS to bro Ayman I understand the "decent of the 'devils' upon fabricators" symbolism in comparison to the "revelation", but is the Quran somehow alleging that it is the divine/supernatural counterpart of human poetry? And why would the poets be followed by the deceived... is poetry a bad thing? If it were poetry in those times, was it being composed in the nomadic language (lisaan il-3rab) which is very likely, such as what we know from the hymn of Qaniya. Perhaps folks in the pagan/sabian population may have known it at that time...
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Word AL-Qur'an as A proper noun, that we know today could not have exsisted at that time. Based on Jezm/Sukoon concept this is a phrase meaning
Al="the"
Qur, is next word, not Qura as there is Jezm on Ra= One establish(usually used for one with authority)
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume7/00000027.pdf
Aan= I
Hence meaning of phrase should "The one I established".
Badar Kanwar MD., FCCP.
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Peace Badar,
Word AL-Qur'an as A proper noun, that we know today could not have exsisted at that time. Based on Jezm/Sukoon concept this is a phrase meaning
Al="the"
Qur, is next word, not Qura as there is Jezm on Ra= One establish(usually used for one with authority)
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume7/00000027.pdf
Aan= I
Hence meaning of phrase should "The one I established".The form QuR'AN is of the form Fu3LAN, which is a fairly common form in the Arabic language. The Q, R and the Hamza are the strong letters of the root. Its root is not QRR or QUR (I don't even think that such root exists), otherwise it would have been the non-existent words QuRRAN or QaWRAN without a Hamza. It is an intensified noun form like, for example, SuLTAN (intense authority). So the word QuR'AN means intense reading. The Arabic for I is ANA not AAN, although some vernaculars particularly in rural Egypt have it as AANI and it is never attached to another word (exactly like the English "I" is never attached to another word).
1778 and many other passages make it clear that the word "QuR'AN" is a common noun that simply means something like "intense reading/recitation"
017.078
YUSUFALI Establish regular prayers - at the sun's decline till the darkness of the night, and the morning prayer and reading for the prayer and reading in the morning carry their testimony.
PICKTHAL Establish worship at the going down of the sun until the dark of night, and (the recital of) the Qur'an at dawn. Lo! (the recital of) the Qur'an at dawn is ever witnessed.
SHAKIR Keep up prayer from the declining of the sun till the darkness of the night and the morning recitation; surely the morning recitation is witnessed.
KHALIFA You shall observe the Contact Prayer (Salat) when the sun declines from its highest point at noon, as it moves towards sunset. You shall also observe (the recitation of) the Quran at dawn. (Reciting) the Quran at dawn is witnessed.Out of the above translations, Shakir's is the most accurate. This is why he didn't have to put anything in parentheses. Other translators had to put "recital/recitation" in parentheses because "Quran at dawn" is meaningless nonsense.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Maxq,
A slight digression so I apologize in advance - mods, if you want to fork (branch) this discussion, please do so,
Judging by the terminology used in this thread, I am guessing this discussion may have triggered around some elements in the Text of the Poets (surat-ush-shu'araa)? What I would want to know is why does the mention of poets pop out all of a sudden in the chapter? Any insight would be appreciated by both bro Ayman and sis Samia.
PS to bro Ayman I understand the "decent of the 'devils' upon fabricators" symbolism in comparison to the "revelation", but is the Quran somehow alleging that it is the divine/supernatural counterpart of human poetry? And why would the poets be followed by the deceived... is poetry a bad thing? If it were poetry in those times, was it being composed in the nomadic language (lisaan il-3rab) which is very likely, such as what we know from the hymn of Qaniya. Perhaps folks in the pagan/sabian population may have known it at that time...I think that you need to ask what faculty or part of the human psyche poets use to compose poems? You will find the clear answer there. This has nothing to do with the particular time, language or style that they compose it in.
Peace,
Ayman
