Virgin Birth of Isa
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You can twist words very nicely, plus the word Abaahim implies both to father and mother, and so none are left out. Circles circles we go round and round...
You stated the following
Begining Qoute
The Quran clearly mentions Jesus's father. In surah An-Aam verse 84-87 Allah mentions names of 18 prophets at a stretch. Of these, verse 86 specifically mentions name of Isa as "?. And Zakariyya, and Yahya and Isa and Ilyas - everyone was of the righteous." After stating the names of the 18 prophets, in the very next verse 88 Allah goes on to say that688 And from among their fathers and their descendants and their brethren. And We chose them and We guided them towards the Right Path.
End QouteWhich means Jesus Father (your claim) was righteous.
Then you stated the Opposite
The verse only says that Jesus and his mother were favoured, it does not rule out a father being used to create Jesus. If the father wasn't favoured, then he wouldn't be mentioned in this verse, and he is not, so he wasn't favoured for some reason or not favoured in the way as Jesus and his mother were. Again your logic is faulty by thinking this proves a virginbirth.
Now, when you do that, you are the one who is twisting the truth and not me.
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Do not confuse not being favoured to being bad. The Jews were favoured, this doesn?t mean all the rest on earth were bad...
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)
confused
One time you say that his father was not Favored, and another time you say he was among the righteous.One time you say Abaohom means Fathers (well-established meaning), and one time you say it could be Father or Mother or both (not-well-established meaning).
Now, can you tell why I thing you are twisting the truth. yes
To closeout, your argument that jesus had a Father is not based on well-established Verses; thus, your argument is worth nothing aginest the Well-established verses that Confirm
"Jesus Virgin Birth".May God Lead you to the Truth
Salam -
Peace All
I'd suggest discussion of various takes on Jesus in the quran but if people continue to call each other fakes, & guess at what their affiliations may be, & call them names, and get mad at an alternative opinion do not be suprised if posts are promptly removed and you receive notice from the moderators that you will be banned.
Joe
Moderator
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I guess my question goes to those that rejectthe virgin birth, since for the others the answer would be obvious, my question is, as I already pointed out
"I can't recall that the Quran calls many people continually as "son of X" be it the father or the mother. I hardly think it is a question of calling him by the mothers or the fathers name, but rather of making of it such a big deal. No Moses son of X every time he is mentioned, Or Solomon, or any other. There must be a reason for it. "
Anybody can give an explanation for that? -
I guess my question goes to those that rejectthe virgin birth, since for the others the answer would be obvious, my question is, as I already pointed out
"I can't recall that the Quran calls many people continually as "son of X" be it the father or the mother. I hardly think it is a question of calling him by the mothers or the fathers name, but rather of making of it such a big deal. No Moses son of X every time he is mentioned, Or Solomon, or any other. There must be a reason for it. "
Anybody can give an explanation for that?Peace,
Because none of their mothers is the bases of a theology that made them ileh's.
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Peace,
Because none of their mothers is the bases of a theology that made them ileh's.
Do not you think she was made Ileh (the theology) because of
a) her being pregnant by the Holy Spirit (19-17 to 24) (66-12); sun
b) and because of her being the Mother of a spoken baby (17-24 & 4-171); sun
c) and because of her being the mother of a man who made dead people alive (5-110). sun
d) and because people thought she was God's Wife (6-101, 72-3) tempt
Non of the other prophets had a Mother like Jesus Mother, nor Fatherless. Thus they were not called by their mother. sun -
Do not you think she was made Ileh (the theology) because of
a) her being pregnant by the Holy Spirit (19-17 to 24) (66-12); sun
b) and because of her being the Mother of a spoken baby (17-24 & 4-171); sun
c) and because of her being the mother of a man who made dead people alive (5-110). sunPeace,
No, because they made a new form of the Isis-Horus mythology.
http//www.destiner.com/images/eg_isis&horus_egypt_fitzwilliam_museum_cambridge.gif
http//billadamantidis.com/images/icons/mary_jesus.jpg
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Peace,
No, because they made a new form of the Isis-Horus mythology.
http//www.destiner.com/images/eg_isis&horus_egypt_fitzwilliam_museum_cambridge.gif
http//billadamantidis.com/images/icons/mary_jesus.jpg
That is because people thought she was God's Wife (6-101, 72-3)
Now what is your proof from Quran that "they made a new form of the Isis-Horus mythology".
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Yes, because they took over the Isis mythology. Circles...
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Yes, because they took over the Isis mythology. Circles...
Isis was a Goddess of Sun during Ancient Egyptian Time; thus the symbol of Sun that is in the top of Head (in your pictuer) refers to Goddess of Sun and her baby "Hours" and not Mary and Jesus. http//archaicgifts.com/display_item.php?item=ATE-65&refer=google_adwords&kw=isis
Moreover, Isis had a Husband and Hours had a Father.
Mary and Jesus is a Biblical and Quranic Story, and therefore we should use the Quran and Bible to understand the reason why People thought they were Gods.
Many posts that were posted in this thread, by me and others, provided Verses from Quran and Bible that showed the reason why people thought they were Gods.
Thus, God showed in the Quran why Mary was pregnant without a Male, and why Jesus had no Father; and to tell Jews that Jesus is The "Messiah" that they were waiting for.Again, please let us not mix human stories with God's book stories when speaking about Religion.
http//archaicgifts.com/display_item.php?item=ATE-65&refer=google_adwords&kw=isis
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Yes, because they took over the Isis mythology. Circles...
what is your evidence regarding the Qur'an taking over Isis mythology? besides drawing comparisons? Christianity may draw comparisons with paganism because there is a possibility paganism was fused with Gnostic Christianity so that the mob of Rome could accept it as the new religion. However you are saying Islam inherited that paganism and it exists in the Qur'an? I can draw comparisons between Brahma and Allah, or Zoroastrianism and Islam, does not mean it came from the same God or that one is copying the other. I understand though, the main reason you are against the virgin birth is because you see reoccurences with it in the Egyptian Pantheon.
But why do you deny the virgin birth based on comparisons with Christianity? which is a religion based on Christ and then link that to Islam which is a religion about GOD not any of the prophets in other words it should not matter if Jesus was born of a virgin or not. My belief is if God said he was born without a father and God said be and he was then that's that. Both of us cannot prove this, but based on what we read in the Qur'an we come to our own conclusions. If Jesus was not Born of a Virgin...what difference does that make to your religion?
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Isis was a Goddess of Sun during Ancient Egyptian Time; thus the symbol of Sun that is in the top of Head (in your pictuer) refers to Goddess of Sun and her baby "Hours" and not Mary and Jesus. http//archaicgifts.com/display_item.php?item=ATE-65&refer=google_adwords&kw=isis
Moreover, Isis had a Husband and Hours had a Father.
Mary and Jesus is a Biblical and Quranic Story, and therefore we should use the Quran and Bible to understand the reason why People thought they were Gods.
Many posts that were posted in this thread, by me and others, provided Verses from Quran and Bible that showed the reason why people thought they were Gods.
Thus, God showed in the Quran why Mary was pregnant without a Male, and why Jesus had no Father; and to tell Jews that Jesus is The "Messiah" that they were waiting for.Again, please let us not mix human stories with God's book stories when speaking about Religion.
http//archaicgifts.com/display_item.php?item=ATE-65&refer=google_adwords&kw=isis
Peace,
Saviour-gods born from a virgin and fathered by the most powerful god in their mythology is common in many cultures. The New Testament is not the Injil of Jesus, but a Hadith on how the people wanted to display Jesus years after his death, I have showed many proofs also but this is ignored.
Jesus was born to Christian standards on 25-december, this is a Sun-birthday in mythology. Jesus as being the light as displayed in the Gospel of John comes straight out of the Zend-Avesta, which already proves they saw Jesus as Mithra, the son-god of light who is the saviour of Mankind in mythology. Apollo, Mithra and Horus were all saviour-gods who were born out of a virgin, fathered by the most powerful god and were saviours to Mankind. And they were all sun gods or gods of light. In Matthew Jesus is displayed as being born in a stable, this is directly taken from the Mithra-myth. The 3 "wise-ones" visiting Jesus's birth were Persian Astrologers, again a direct reference to the Persian Mithra myth.
If you believe the Bible to be a reliable source, then this discussion is futile and we must agree to disagree.
And Soof, please read carefully, I never said the story in the Qur'an is wrong. Only the story portrayed by the Christians in the later New Testament. The common interpretation of the Quranic story on Jesus I see as wrong as we are blindly following the Christian pagan myths that tried to mix Judeo-beliefs with pagan Roman-beliefs. The Quran tries to correct the myths around Jesus, not only on the idolatry, but also on the other myths that made him to be seen as a son-god.
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Peace,
Because none of their mothers is the bases of a theology that made them ileh's.
I can't quite follow your argument. In what way does that require the insistence on saying "ibn Maryam" whenever he is named?
Non of the other prophets had a Mother like Jesus Mother, nor Fatherless. Thus they were not called by their mother. sun
Again I quote
"I can't recall that the Quran calls many people continually as "son of X" be it the father or the mother. I hardly think it is a question of calling him by the mothers or the fathers name, but rather of making of it such a big deal. No Moses son of X every time he is mentioned, Or Solomon, or any other. There must be a reason for it. "
It is not a question of mentioning the mother instead of the father or the mother or the father at all, but of making of it such a big deal, be it the father or the mother.
On the other hand if it was Mariam being a virgin what was the big deal, why in no instance is it plainly stated like Mariam, the virgin, or something to that effect?
Salaam
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Peace,
Saviour-gods born from a virgin and fathered by the most powerful god in their mythology is common in many cultures. The New Testament is not the Injil of Jesus, but a Hadith on how the people wanted to display Jesus years after his death, I have showed many proofs also but this is ignored.
Jesus was born to Christian standards on 25-december, this is a Sun-birthday in mythology. Jesus as being the light as displayed in the Gospel of John comes straight out of the Zend-Avesta, which already proves they saw Jesus as Mithra, the son-god of light who is the saviour of Mankind in mythology. Apollo, Mithra and Horus were all saviour-gods who were born out of a virgin, fathered by the most powerful god and were saviours to Mankind. And they were all sun gods or gods of light. In Matthew Jesus is displayed as being born in a stable, this is directly taken from the Mithra-myth. The 3 "wise-ones" visiting Jesus's birth were Persian Astrologers, again a direct reference to the Persian Mithra myth.
Again, your conclusions are based on non-Quranic proof; thus we will never agree.
If you believe the Bible to be a reliable source, then this discussion is futile and we must agree to disagree.
My first reliable source is the Quran, because that is what I know. But If the Bible agrees with Quran, then it is truth, which I can use to support my conclusion (nothing is wrong with that).
The Quran tries to correct the myths around Jesus, not only on the idolatry, but also on the other myths that made him to be seen as a son-god.
Agree; D
the Quran corrected the Christian's believe of thinking that Jesus and his Mothers are Gods (or Jesus is the son of God), by conferming that"Jesus had no Father" ,
"Jesus is not the Son of God",
"Mary was not God's Wife"'
"Mary was a righteous Woman and did not commit adultery"
"Jesus was created like Adam, without a Father"I hardly think it is a question of calling him by the mothers or the fathers name, but rather of making of it such a big deal. There must be a reason for it. "
I agree; and also I say that God made it a big deal in order to support that Jesus had no Father (or else God would have used it to clarify any future misunderstanding). As I said before, I use "Jesus the Son of Mary" as a strong supporting evidence for the other decisive verses that shows Jesus was created by the Holy Spirit and not a Human Father.
On the other hand if it was Mariam being a virgin what was the big deal, why in no instance is it plainly stated like Mariam, the virgin, or something to that effect?
SalaamIn verse 19-20, there is a strong proof that she was never touched by any human; this proof shows not only she was a Virgin, but also a righteous woman.
Moreover, 66-12 shows that she protected her virginity "Ahsanat Vargah".peace
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In verse 19-20, there is a strong proof that she was never touched by any human
This does not mean after that she was not either. She was not touched by a human up to her encounter with the messenger.
; this proof shows not only she was a Virgin, but also a righteous woman.
What being righteous has to do with being virgin? Married women are not righteous?
Moreover, 66-12 shows that she protected her virginity "Ahsanat Vargah".
peaceThe expression used in the qur'aan for "protecting their private parts (and not virginity) is hafaza not ahsana. From "ahsana" is derived the participle muhsana which means married or linked to marriage.
And as huruf said why doesn't the qur'aan describe her as "the virgin"? In fact in all the verses mentioning Mariam, non describes her as such.
I believe that the comparison of Isa to adam is a very significant one. If one believes that adam was created without parents, then the comparison is 0. Having one parent is nearer to having two than to having none. Adam is the name of our species. Both had the ruuh blown into their precurser before resulting in knowledgeble ceatures
adam ruh blown into bashar to create insan, who was taught the language, knowledge and wisdom
isa ruh blwon into him to create a knowledgeable messenger since he was in the womb. No other mesenger was assigned this task before his birth. -
This does not mean after that she was not either. She was not touched by a human up to her encounter with the messenger.
Are saying that the Messanger was Human or God's Spirit in a form of Human?
What being righteous has to do with being virgin? Married women are not righteous?
Do not you know, from the Quran, that Jews were saying that Mary were pragnent by Committing "Fahsha", having illegal Sex with a male.
Thus, when I said a righteous woman, I ment she never committed "Zina".The expression used in the qur'aan for "protecting their private parts
I agree, but remmber you said that Mary were never touched by human up to her encounter with the messenger; thus, "Ahsant Vargaha" means nobody touched her private part (up to the messanger encounter, as you said, but I do not believe that even the Messanger did, but rather blew into her, as the Quran says)
Both had the ruuh blown into their precurser before resulting in knowledgeble ceatures
adam ruh blown into bashar to create insan, who was taught the language, knowledge and wisdom
isa ruh blwon into him to create a knowledgeable messenger since he was in the womb. No other mesenger was assigned this task before his birth.I think that debate can be done in another thread. I can call it as follow
"Did Adam have a Monkey Father and a Monkey Mother or He was created from Dust"
Untill you or Arnold create it, let us stick to the main topic of the thread. -
Peace Bel,
If Jesus is unlike me or you in that he lacked a human father, at the very least, than how is he like Adam who had no parents? Do you think Adam (the man named Adam) had parents? I ask because you stated
"Did Adam have a Monkey Father and a Monkey Mother or He was created from Dust"
So if he did come from another species and was the first of our kind is he really like Jesus since he had "a monkey father and a monkey mother"?
Joe
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Salaam Belal, all
Are saying that the Messanger was Human or God's Spirit in a form of Human?
He was a messenger to inform her of the Divine decision to have a child. Mariam was donated to the shrine to serve God, so she was not supposed to get married (something like a nun).
Do not you know, from the Quran, that Jews were saying that Mary were pragnent by Committing "Fahsha", having illegal Sex with a male.
Thus, when I said a righteous woman, I ment she never committed "Zina".I was commenting on what you wrote, not what you had in mind.
And no, the qur'an does not say that. In fact, they were telling her how honourable her family was, and called her "sister of Haroun" (Remember, Haroun was the one who cared more for their unity and traditions in the story of the Golden calf). You say this in blame for breaking traditions more than for having illegitmate pregnancy. If the jews thought she had an illegitmate child, they would have cursed her and stoned her.I agree, but remmber you said that Mary were never touched by human up to her encounter with the messenger; thus, "Ahsant Vargaha" means nobody touched her private part (up to the messanger encounter, as you said, but I do not believe that even the Messanger did, but rather blew into her, as the Quran says)
The messenger told her the Divine decision. She then "ahsanat farajaha" and God blew into the result of this "ihsaan" the baby, not into her "faraj". Verse 2191 is clear in that when it says (we blew unto her) not (unto her faraj). In both verses (the other being 6612) the action of "nafkh" is not linked to the visit of the messenger. Remember that the other time where God blew from the Spirit was unto the "bashar" to result in "adam", not unto the clay.
"Did Adam have a Monkey Father and a Monkey Mother or He was created from Dust"
Untill you or Arnold create it, let us stick to the main topic of the thread.It's clear from the qur'aan that adam was preceded by the bashar, so he had parents. If he was created from a clay, what similarities does he have with Jesus? If he did not have parents at all, he is not to be compared to anything, let alone to some one who has been carried in a womb for nine months.