Virgin Birth of Isa
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Yes, because they took over the Isis mythology. Circles...
Isis was a Goddess of Sun during Ancient Egyptian Time; thus the symbol of Sun that is in the top of Head (in your pictuer) refers to Goddess of Sun and her baby "Hours" and not Mary and Jesus. http//archaicgifts.com/display_item.php?item=ATE-65&refer=google_adwords&kw=isis
Moreover, Isis had a Husband and Hours had a Father.
Mary and Jesus is a Biblical and Quranic Story, and therefore we should use the Quran and Bible to understand the reason why People thought they were Gods.
Many posts that were posted in this thread, by me and others, provided Verses from Quran and Bible that showed the reason why people thought they were Gods.
Thus, God showed in the Quran why Mary was pregnant without a Male, and why Jesus had no Father; and to tell Jews that Jesus is The "Messiah" that they were waiting for.Again, please let us not mix human stories with God's book stories when speaking about Religion.
http//archaicgifts.com/display_item.php?item=ATE-65&refer=google_adwords&kw=isis
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Yes, because they took over the Isis mythology. Circles...
what is your evidence regarding the Qur'an taking over Isis mythology? besides drawing comparisons? Christianity may draw comparisons with paganism because there is a possibility paganism was fused with Gnostic Christianity so that the mob of Rome could accept it as the new religion. However you are saying Islam inherited that paganism and it exists in the Qur'an? I can draw comparisons between Brahma and Allah, or Zoroastrianism and Islam, does not mean it came from the same God or that one is copying the other. I understand though, the main reason you are against the virgin birth is because you see reoccurences with it in the Egyptian Pantheon.
But why do you deny the virgin birth based on comparisons with Christianity? which is a religion based on Christ and then link that to Islam which is a religion about GOD not any of the prophets in other words it should not matter if Jesus was born of a virgin or not. My belief is if God said he was born without a father and God said be and he was then that's that. Both of us cannot prove this, but based on what we read in the Qur'an we come to our own conclusions. If Jesus was not Born of a Virgin...what difference does that make to your religion?
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Isis was a Goddess of Sun during Ancient Egyptian Time; thus the symbol of Sun that is in the top of Head (in your pictuer) refers to Goddess of Sun and her baby "Hours" and not Mary and Jesus. http//archaicgifts.com/display_item.php?item=ATE-65&refer=google_adwords&kw=isis
Moreover, Isis had a Husband and Hours had a Father.
Mary and Jesus is a Biblical and Quranic Story, and therefore we should use the Quran and Bible to understand the reason why People thought they were Gods.
Many posts that were posted in this thread, by me and others, provided Verses from Quran and Bible that showed the reason why people thought they were Gods.
Thus, God showed in the Quran why Mary was pregnant without a Male, and why Jesus had no Father; and to tell Jews that Jesus is The "Messiah" that they were waiting for.Again, please let us not mix human stories with God's book stories when speaking about Religion.
http//archaicgifts.com/display_item.php?item=ATE-65&refer=google_adwords&kw=isis
Peace,
Saviour-gods born from a virgin and fathered by the most powerful god in their mythology is common in many cultures. The New Testament is not the Injil of Jesus, but a Hadith on how the people wanted to display Jesus years after his death, I have showed many proofs also but this is ignored.
Jesus was born to Christian standards on 25-december, this is a Sun-birthday in mythology. Jesus as being the light as displayed in the Gospel of John comes straight out of the Zend-Avesta, which already proves they saw Jesus as Mithra, the son-god of light who is the saviour of Mankind in mythology. Apollo, Mithra and Horus were all saviour-gods who were born out of a virgin, fathered by the most powerful god and were saviours to Mankind. And they were all sun gods or gods of light. In Matthew Jesus is displayed as being born in a stable, this is directly taken from the Mithra-myth. The 3 "wise-ones" visiting Jesus's birth were Persian Astrologers, again a direct reference to the Persian Mithra myth.
If you believe the Bible to be a reliable source, then this discussion is futile and we must agree to disagree.
And Soof, please read carefully, I never said the story in the Qur'an is wrong. Only the story portrayed by the Christians in the later New Testament. The common interpretation of the Quranic story on Jesus I see as wrong as we are blindly following the Christian pagan myths that tried to mix Judeo-beliefs with pagan Roman-beliefs. The Quran tries to correct the myths around Jesus, not only on the idolatry, but also on the other myths that made him to be seen as a son-god.
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Peace,
Because none of their mothers is the bases of a theology that made them ileh's.
I can't quite follow your argument. In what way does that require the insistence on saying "ibn Maryam" whenever he is named?
Non of the other prophets had a Mother like Jesus Mother, nor Fatherless. Thus they were not called by their mother. sun
Again I quote
"I can't recall that the Quran calls many people continually as "son of X" be it the father or the mother. I hardly think it is a question of calling him by the mothers or the fathers name, but rather of making of it such a big deal. No Moses son of X every time he is mentioned, Or Solomon, or any other. There must be a reason for it. "
It is not a question of mentioning the mother instead of the father or the mother or the father at all, but of making of it such a big deal, be it the father or the mother.
On the other hand if it was Mariam being a virgin what was the big deal, why in no instance is it plainly stated like Mariam, the virgin, or something to that effect?
Salaam
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Peace,
Saviour-gods born from a virgin and fathered by the most powerful god in their mythology is common in many cultures. The New Testament is not the Injil of Jesus, but a Hadith on how the people wanted to display Jesus years after his death, I have showed many proofs also but this is ignored.
Jesus was born to Christian standards on 25-december, this is a Sun-birthday in mythology. Jesus as being the light as displayed in the Gospel of John comes straight out of the Zend-Avesta, which already proves they saw Jesus as Mithra, the son-god of light who is the saviour of Mankind in mythology. Apollo, Mithra and Horus were all saviour-gods who were born out of a virgin, fathered by the most powerful god and were saviours to Mankind. And they were all sun gods or gods of light. In Matthew Jesus is displayed as being born in a stable, this is directly taken from the Mithra-myth. The 3 "wise-ones" visiting Jesus's birth were Persian Astrologers, again a direct reference to the Persian Mithra myth.
Again, your conclusions are based on non-Quranic proof; thus we will never agree.
If you believe the Bible to be a reliable source, then this discussion is futile and we must agree to disagree.
My first reliable source is the Quran, because that is what I know. But If the Bible agrees with Quran, then it is truth, which I can use to support my conclusion (nothing is wrong with that).
The Quran tries to correct the myths around Jesus, not only on the idolatry, but also on the other myths that made him to be seen as a son-god.
Agree; D
the Quran corrected the Christian's believe of thinking that Jesus and his Mothers are Gods (or Jesus is the son of God), by conferming that"Jesus had no Father" ,
"Jesus is not the Son of God",
"Mary was not God's Wife"'
"Mary was a righteous Woman and did not commit adultery"
"Jesus was created like Adam, without a Father"I hardly think it is a question of calling him by the mothers or the fathers name, but rather of making of it such a big deal. There must be a reason for it. "
I agree; and also I say that God made it a big deal in order to support that Jesus had no Father (or else God would have used it to clarify any future misunderstanding). As I said before, I use "Jesus the Son of Mary" as a strong supporting evidence for the other decisive verses that shows Jesus was created by the Holy Spirit and not a Human Father.
On the other hand if it was Mariam being a virgin what was the big deal, why in no instance is it plainly stated like Mariam, the virgin, or something to that effect?
SalaamIn verse 19-20, there is a strong proof that she was never touched by any human; this proof shows not only she was a Virgin, but also a righteous woman.
Moreover, 66-12 shows that she protected her virginity "Ahsanat Vargah".peace
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In verse 19-20, there is a strong proof that she was never touched by any human
This does not mean after that she was not either. She was not touched by a human up to her encounter with the messenger.
; this proof shows not only she was a Virgin, but also a righteous woman.
What being righteous has to do with being virgin? Married women are not righteous?
Moreover, 66-12 shows that she protected her virginity "Ahsanat Vargah".
peaceThe expression used in the qur'aan for "protecting their private parts (and not virginity) is hafaza not ahsana. From "ahsana" is derived the participle muhsana which means married or linked to marriage.
And as huruf said why doesn't the qur'aan describe her as "the virgin"? In fact in all the verses mentioning Mariam, non describes her as such.
I believe that the comparison of Isa to adam is a very significant one. If one believes that adam was created without parents, then the comparison is 0. Having one parent is nearer to having two than to having none. Adam is the name of our species. Both had the ruuh blown into their precurser before resulting in knowledgeble ceatures
adam ruh blown into bashar to create insan, who was taught the language, knowledge and wisdom
isa ruh blwon into him to create a knowledgeable messenger since he was in the womb. No other mesenger was assigned this task before his birth. -
This does not mean after that she was not either. She was not touched by a human up to her encounter with the messenger.
Are saying that the Messanger was Human or God's Spirit in a form of Human?
What being righteous has to do with being virgin? Married women are not righteous?
Do not you know, from the Quran, that Jews were saying that Mary were pragnent by Committing "Fahsha", having illegal Sex with a male.
Thus, when I said a righteous woman, I ment she never committed "Zina".The expression used in the qur'aan for "protecting their private parts
I agree, but remmber you said that Mary were never touched by human up to her encounter with the messenger; thus, "Ahsant Vargaha" means nobody touched her private part (up to the messanger encounter, as you said, but I do not believe that even the Messanger did, but rather blew into her, as the Quran says)
Both had the ruuh blown into their precurser before resulting in knowledgeble ceatures
adam ruh blown into bashar to create insan, who was taught the language, knowledge and wisdom
isa ruh blwon into him to create a knowledgeable messenger since he was in the womb. No other mesenger was assigned this task before his birth.I think that debate can be done in another thread. I can call it as follow
"Did Adam have a Monkey Father and a Monkey Mother or He was created from Dust"
Untill you or Arnold create it, let us stick to the main topic of the thread. -
Peace Bel,
If Jesus is unlike me or you in that he lacked a human father, at the very least, than how is he like Adam who had no parents? Do you think Adam (the man named Adam) had parents? I ask because you stated
"Did Adam have a Monkey Father and a Monkey Mother or He was created from Dust"
So if he did come from another species and was the first of our kind is he really like Jesus since he had "a monkey father and a monkey mother"?
Joe
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Salaam Belal, all
Are saying that the Messanger was Human or God's Spirit in a form of Human?
He was a messenger to inform her of the Divine decision to have a child. Mariam was donated to the shrine to serve God, so she was not supposed to get married (something like a nun).
Do not you know, from the Quran, that Jews were saying that Mary were pragnent by Committing "Fahsha", having illegal Sex with a male.
Thus, when I said a righteous woman, I ment she never committed "Zina".I was commenting on what you wrote, not what you had in mind.
And no, the qur'an does not say that. In fact, they were telling her how honourable her family was, and called her "sister of Haroun" (Remember, Haroun was the one who cared more for their unity and traditions in the story of the Golden calf). You say this in blame for breaking traditions more than for having illegitmate pregnancy. If the jews thought she had an illegitmate child, they would have cursed her and stoned her.I agree, but remmber you said that Mary were never touched by human up to her encounter with the messenger; thus, "Ahsant Vargaha" means nobody touched her private part (up to the messanger encounter, as you said, but I do not believe that even the Messanger did, but rather blew into her, as the Quran says)
The messenger told her the Divine decision. She then "ahsanat farajaha" and God blew into the result of this "ihsaan" the baby, not into her "faraj". Verse 2191 is clear in that when it says (we blew unto her) not (unto her faraj). In both verses (the other being 6612) the action of "nafkh" is not linked to the visit of the messenger. Remember that the other time where God blew from the Spirit was unto the "bashar" to result in "adam", not unto the clay.
"Did Adam have a Monkey Father and a Monkey Mother or He was created from Dust"
Untill you or Arnold create it, let us stick to the main topic of the thread.It's clear from the qur'aan that adam was preceded by the bashar, so he had parents. If he was created from a clay, what similarities does he have with Jesus? If he did not have parents at all, he is not to be compared to anything, let alone to some one who has been carried in a womb for nine months.
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This does not mean after that she was not either. She was not touched by a human up to her encounter with the messenger.What being righteous has to do with being virgin? Married women are not righteous? The expression used in the qur'aan for "protecting their private parts (and not virginity) is hafaza not ahsana. From "ahsana" is derived the participle muhsana which means married or linked to marriage.
And as huruf said why doesn't the qur'aan describe her as "the virgin"? In fact in all the verses mentioning Mariam, non describes her as such.
I believe that the comparison of Isa to adam is a very significant one. If one believes that adam was created without parents, then the comparison is 0. Having one parent is nearer to having two than to having none. Adam is the name of our species. Both had the ruuh blown into their precurser before resulting in knowledgeble ceatures
adam ruh blown into bashar to create insan, who was taught the language, knowledge and wisdom
isa ruh blwon into him to create a knowledgeable messenger since he was in the womb. No other mesenger was assigned this task before his birth.No, what is in bold is a break of logic and does not make sense.
If I say to you "The likeness of my sister and the likeness of myself are the same We both come from our Parents" That is NOT a null comparison. I may be male while my sister is female. I may be older, I may have a lighter skin tone, this does not contradict the statement however. Because the context is given. I am in likeness with my sister in this SPECIFIC case we both come from our Parents. Seriously, rethink the logic of the statement.
Now with Jesus and Adam the likeness is this
Verily, in the sight of God, the nature of Jesus is as the nature of Adam, whom He created out of dust and then said unto him, "Be" ? and he is.
359This does not mean that both Jesus and Adam were born outside of the womb nor does it mean they were both born of no parents. The likeness is ONLY this whom He created out of dust and then said unto him, "Be" ? and he is. This is the context that God is referring to. He is not telling you they are exactly alike but only in this matter. We know through reading the Qur'an that all man after Adam are created from spurting fluid i.e. they came from a Father. Now if God does not mention that Jesus was created from spurting fluid and makes a specific reference to ADAM who also was not created from sperm and joins them in likeness on this matter ALONE, the simple conclusion can be drawn that Jesus did not have a father. In other words there are only two ways in which man so far has been created"Dust" and Fertilisation. If Jesus was made from Dust he was not made from Sperm. Linking it together we can conclude he did not have a Father, therefore Mary was not impregnated by a Man. God said BE and he was.
However we are ALL made from dust because we ALL descend from Adam who was made from dust. So through our ancestors all the way up to Adam we see our origin was indeed "dried clay"/"dust".
Peace
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Salaam Soof
I am referring to the creation of both Jesus and adam, just as you understand. The difference is that you believe in a man called Adam whom God moulded form clay and then said to him Be! and he was.
Even with this imagination, nowhere does God tell us that He said to Jesus Be and he was. So, don't take the creation literally from one verse. Scan all the verses on creation and link the dots. This (Be and it is) applies to all God's creation, even me and you. So this is really not specific to adam nor to Jesus.
The comparison of a hman being born by just a female is not as miraculous as creating someone from no parents (in fact, this is possible now through cloning). Therefore to make it a correct comparison, both must be created in the same way from 2 parents, from one parent or from no parents at all.
We already learn from the qur'aan that adam was preceeded by (bashar) and that God blew unto the bashar and the result was adam. This is the comparison of the (creation) of adam and Jesus blow unto the one >>get man who speaks; blow unto Jesus>> get a baby that speaks.However we are ALL made from dust because we ALL descend from Adam who was made from dust
And analogically, we are ALL made from (spurting fluid) because we ALL descend from adam who was made from spurting fluid/sperms
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I have gone back to read Al3imraan and I am more and more won by the feeling that the whole thing revolves about the consciousness of God, the depth of that consciousness and the power to transmit it to others by God's will; that Maryam is the perfect incarnation of the muslim who gives up her destiny to God's will without reservation and no matter what; that Jesus and Adam are alike in that they were imbued (blown) the consciousness of God and the power to transmit that consciousness to others, that we all can give birth without a father to that consciousness if we just open ourselves to the will of Good. 3isa is the son of Maryam, because she gave birth to what God willed. She was conscious of only God. We all, men and women, can give birth to what God wills to do trough us.
Virginity, birds out clay, blindness, leper cured... all those wonders are just language, language with which we are told that it is the consciousness and total submission to God that will deliver us from blindness to truth, from the leprosy of ignorance, from hunger for truth, from being trapped on earth; that will turn us from dust into birds that fly to their Lord and home.
What is the importance of somebody being born through one or other procedure? Does that matter?
That is not important, what is important is that we submit to God and let Him use us to give birth to whatever He wills. His will matters, ours doesn't. That Mary gave virgin birth? We all will give virgin birth to whatever God wants to do trough us if we submit without keeping anything back. Virgin birth is not a flesh fact, it is aspiritual fact.
May be the inconclusiveness of what is stated in the Quran on that count is meant to lead us away from the outward trappings to the core of the matter, which is Maryamhood, that is, perfect, untainted, untouched submission, so that the Be through us is possible, and we Serve Our Creator, our only reason of being.
Salaam
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Peace Bel,
If Jesus is unlike me or you in that he lacked a human father, at the very least, than how is he like Adam who had no parents? Do you think Adam (the man named Adam) had parents? I ask because you stated
So if he did come from another species and was the first of our kind is he really like Jesus since he had "a monkey father and a monkey mother"?
Joe
Peace,
God created Adam by Be-And-It-is Method; and created Isa by the same method. Non of them (Adam and Isa) were created by a common way (Male and Female).
I do not believe and never believed that Adam had a Father or Mother (Monkey or Human), but Samia and Arnold (and other) think that way.
To talk about this issue, we need to start another thread (as I suggested to Samia).And no, the qur'an does not say that. In fact, they were telling her how honourable her family was, and called her "sister of Haroun" (Remember, Haroun was the one who cared more for their unity and traditions in the story of the Golden calf). You say this in blame for breaking traditions more than for having illegitmate pregnancy. If the jews thought she had an illegitmate child, they would have cursed her and stoned her.
(
That they rejected Faith that they uttered against Mary a grave false charge. (4-156)( (At length she brought the (babe) to her people, carrying him (in her arms). they said "O Mary! truly an amazing thing hast thou brought! (27) "O sister of Aaron! thy father was not a man of evil, nor thy mother a woman unchaste!" (19-2
and if The baby did not speak, they would have stonned her( ( (
But she pointed to the babe. They said "How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle?" (29) He said "I am indeed a servant of Allah He hath given me revelation and made me a prophet; (30) "And He hath made me Blessed wheresoever I be, and hath enjoined on me Prayer and Charity as long as I live; (19-31)Salaam Soof
Even with this imagination, nowhere does God tell us that He said to Jesus Be and he was.
Samia, I would like to share with you and everybody another Signs from the Quran regarding Jesus Birth without a Father.
There are two true stories, in the Quran, about Zakaria and Mary in Chapter 3 as followIn the Case of Zakaria
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While he was standing in prayer in the chamber, the angels called unto him "Allah doth give thee glad tidings of Yahya, witnessing the truth of a Word from Allah and (be besides) noble, chaste, and a Prophet of the company of the righteous." (3-39)In the Case of Mary
(٥
Behold! the angels said "O Mary! Allah give thee glad tidings of a Word from Him his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary held in honor in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah. (45)Conclusion
Both Zakaria and Mary were given glad tidings by the Angels.
Zakaria was about a Son by the name of Yahia and Mary a Son by the name of Jesus.
Yahia witnessing (Believing) the truth of a Word from Allah.
Jesus is a Word of Allah. Thus, Yahia will be a believer and witness of Jesus.In the Case of Zakaria
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He said "O my Lord! how shall I have a son, seeing I am very old, and my wife is barren? He said (the Angel) "Doth Allah do what he willth (wants, wishes)." (3-40)In the Case of Mary
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She said "O my Lord! how shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?" He said (the Angel) "Doth Allah createth what He willeth (wants, wishes); when He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it `Be', and it is! (47)Conclusion
Zakaria said ?how can I have a Son when a) I?m an Old Man, b) My Wife is Barren (can?t have a baby).
Mary said ?how can I have a Son when a) No Men has Touched Me.
The Angel answered Zakaria by Saying ?Allah DO What He Wishes?
The Angel answered Mary by Saying ?Allah CREATES What He Wishes by using BE-AND- IT-IS? METHOD. (it is the same method he Created Adam with)THESE ARE TRUE SIGNS FROM YOUR LORD, IF YOU WISH, BELIEVE OR DISBLIEVE.
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Peace Bel
This is actually a general method for anything God does .
Joe
Peace
You are right, every thing are created by the same method. When we ask how Jesus was created without a Father? The answer is "BE-AND-IT-IS" Method.
Why Jesus is like Adam, in the way they were created?
My answer is both had no Father, and both were created by the "BE-AND-IT-IS" Method.
Why God used Adam as an example of Jesus creation? The answer is"NO HUMAN WAS CREATED WITHOUT A FATHER EXCEPT ADAM & JESUS"
peace
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Peace Bel,
The answer is "BE-AND-IT-IS" Method.
Okay.
Why Jesus is like Adam, in the way they were created?
My answer is both had no Father, and both were created by the "BE-AND-IT-IS" Method.You agreed that everything is created in the same method so if you will make the comparison between Jesus and Adam with that method then it should correspond to you, me, and everyone else since we just agreed that this method is not just one used with Jesus and Adam.
Then you say they both had no father. Do you believe Adam had no mother, or that he too had a mother? If you are going to make a comparison between them that they both have no father than it ends there if Adam has no mother but Jesus does. One had at least one biological parent. Also, as I mentioned above, if we like Jesus and Adam are also created by this method and destroyed thereby, than it no longer becomes a unique situation for Jesus and Adam and then Jesus and Adam become less alike, Adam as far from Jesus as Jesus is from us if Jesus had one parent and Adam had none. This is all speculation because you must confirm your positions before we can move on from here and try and clear up any contraditions.
"NO HUMAN WAS CREATED WITHOUT A FATHER EXCEPT ADAM & JESUS"
Did Adam also have a mother? If so how do you know that? If not than Adam was like no other human, including Jesus, because he had no parents.
Than that leaves the question, what really is the similitude between the two?
Joe
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Peace Bel,
Okay.
You agreed that everything is created in the same method so if you will make the comparison between Jesus and Adam with that method then it should correspond to you, me, and everyone else since we just agreed that this method is not just one used with Jesus and Adam.
Then you say they both had no father. Do you believe Adam had no mother, or that he too had a mother? If you are going to make a comparison between them that they both have no father than it ends there if Adam has no mother but Jesus does. One had at least one biological parent. Also, as I mentioned above, if we like Jesus and Adam are also created by this method and destroyed thereby, than it no longer becomes a unique situation for Jesus and Adam and then Jesus and Adam become less alike, Adam as far from Jesus as Jesus is from us if Jesus had one parent and Adam had none. This is all speculation because you must confirm your positions before we can move on from here and try and clear up any contraditions.
Joe
AS I said to Tay before
If God did not reveal the decisive verses that show the story of the Spirit that came to Mary and Blew in her to make here pregnant, then you are right; but because of such verses, I'm entitled to use them as very important supporting evidences.
I will say again, if it were not for the desicive verses that tell us about how Jesus was created by God Spirit, and when Mary Said that How can she have a baby when no men touched her, then using the Adam and Jesus creation example would be usless.
But because of these verses, I can use it as a very strong proof to support Jesus creation without a Father.
But if you choose to use it as a supporting proof that Jesus had a Father, then you are committing the Sin of using non-well-established verses to cancel out well-established verses.If not than Adam was like no other human, including Jesus, because he had no parents.
Than that leaves the question, what really is the similitude between the two?
Joe
Adam is not like any other human, therefore, God never said that Adam creation is like an example of any human creation (including Jesus).
But when God wanted to give example of a creation like Jesus creation, He used the only example of human that had no Father--Adam (the only similar example of creation).
By the way why you ignored to comment on my other proof
There are two true stories, in the Quran, about Zakaria and Mary in Chapter 3 as follow
In the Case of Zakaria
(٩
While he was standing in prayer in the chamber, the angels called unto him "Allah doth give thee glad tidings of Yahya, witnessing the truth of a Word from Allah and (be besides) noble, chaste, and a Prophet of the company of the righteous." (3-39)In the Case of Mary
(٥
Behold! the angels said "O Mary! Allah give thee glad tidings of a Word from Him his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary held in honor in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah. (45)Conclusion
Both Zakaria and Mary were given glad tidings by the Angels.
Zakaria was about a Son by the name of Yahia and Mary a Son by the name of Jesus.
Yahia witnessing (Believing) the truth of a Word from Allah.
Jesus is a Word of Allah. Thus, Yahia will be a believer and witness of Jesus.In the Case of Zakaria
(٠
He said "O my Lord! how shall I have a son, seeing I am very old, and my wife is barren? He said (the Angel) "Doth Allah do what he willth (wants, wishes)." (3-40)In the Case of Mary
(٦ (٧
She said "O my Lord! how shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?" He said (the Angel) "Doth Allah createth what He willeth (wants, wishes); when He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it `Be', and it is! (47)Conclusion
Zakaria said ?how can I have a Son when a) I?m an Old Man, b) My Wife is Barren (can?t have a baby).
Mary said ?how can I have a Son when a) No Men has Touched Me.
The Angel answered Zakaria by Saying ?Allah DO What He Wishes?
The Angel answered Mary by Saying ?Allah CREATES What He Wishes by using BE-AND- IT-IS? METHOD. (it is the same method he Created Adam with)THESE ARE TRUE SIGNS FROM YOUR LORD, IF YOU WISH, BELIEVE OR DISBLIEVE.
peace
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Salaam Bilal, all
Please do not treat us (who do not agree with your rendition on this subject) as idle people who have much time on their hands and just want to argue. I know you did not say that explicitly, but everytime I read a post by you, I feel intimidated. Maybe it's just me.
I, for example, look at it from many points meaning of words , implication or/and significance of the "virginity" understanding, as well as from the most important point, because it's the least subjective and the most direct the comparison between adam and Jesus. Maybe this IS the difference between you and the opponents. If you believe adam is us, and not a prehistoric man created suddenly, then the comparison will make Jesus a man created just like everyone of us. Then all other problems linked to meanings of words will fall into prespective. Otherwise, I do not see any meaning for this discussion and we would better start from (how was adam created?).
And just off-topic I do not understand why a virgin pregnant woman is to be considered a miracle and sign of purity, as if God did not creat us in pairs in order to keep each other's company. As for virgin pregnants, I personally knew, first hand, three cases, and many people I know knew at least one, thanks to the female genital mutulation. As for being pregnant without being touched by a man, and of course be a virgin (if the woman so wishes), this is now possible through artificial insimination; and a complete no-man-in-any-form pregnancy can be realized through cloning. Al these ways of conceiving are defective in a way or another, so why would Jesus be born without a father? Is it a sign that fathers are not important and that we can just dispose of them, and still give birth to prophets. Maybe this is the hidden message. I would not mind then She was virgin yay
The other problem of thinking along this understanding is what traditionalists concluded Mary never menstruated! Why, they argue, would she need something she would never use? A womb was all she needed. I will go why a womb? If God can creat a child without a sperm, He can without a womb...Then after a short thought, I will go and why a woman then? Why not use the method Be and he is, just like the creation of Adam? Only then, can we say that the example of Jesus is like the example of Adam.
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I think that the way things happened for Mariam must have been atypical, not kosher, and difficult for her, probably with a lot of gossip and incredulity as to "how she got pregnant" from what the Quran says, which is why her submission in accepting her lot was modelic and an inspiration for all all muslims. On the "how", not being touched by male, I also tend to think that it was "natural", although atypical, may be unique, but still "natural". Also if you are to produce matter, a material means must be there. Matter itself is miraculous, the fact of "being" is miracolous, so I cannot see that a material means is less miraculous than a way where you think there appears something when there was nothing. Every moment the universe goes on is miraculous because everything could not be instead of being. So I really do not care much as to the the technical part of it. I am sure it is there and it is efficient. It is the sense and significance of it all that should touch us.
Also, I do not think that 3isa really spoke with full words like older persons being a new born. The fact that he was there, and may be the way he was must have spoken to people's hearts, and his mothers faith and submission must have made the baby "speak" that way, specially since from Maryams family side there was so much piety and trust in God.
Again, it is as a spiritual language I think that the whole is best understood... Finally, that God can create averything and anything anytime anywhere we already know and take for granted. So the creation of 3isa by itself does't say anything new, so what is the particular thing God is showing us with this hadith or with these hadith series?
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I think the main reason for the comparison between Jesus and Adam is to emphasise that Jesus is a man just like us and not Godly like the Christians believe. I believe Mary is a sign for people in the sense that she was chaste and she kept her honour, she was not led astray by temptation and observed God's limits. God is telling us that chastity is what he wants for the believers until they marry, he used Mary as an example of a chaste believer (God always uses examples of pious people in the Qur'an for us to learn from) who gave birth to Jesus. Whether she was a VIRGIN when she gave birth to Jesus or not is not important to the whole message of the Qur'an and the parable of Jesus. It is only important when people are trying to assert his Godliness or the miracle of his birth. It may have been miraculous, it may have been a virgin birth but the message of Jesus in the Qur'an and the example of chastity in Mary does not change if Jesus was born of a virgin or not, therefore it does not matter.
This is probably why it is ambiguous. Because people try and read meanings into sentences and draw out long and unnecessary points that detract from the message of the Qur'an. What is clear is that Mary was chaste and honourable (God also refers to MALES being chaste and honourable as well greatest example being Joseph) and that Jesus was a mortal messenger who performed miracles by God's leave AND was taught the Gospel. These are the clear facts. God tells us to hold fast to the cornerstones of the book, i.e the non-ambiguous points and take the best meaning out of the ambiguous. But when the ambiguity of a statement does not effect the overall message then it is not necessary to take any meaning out of it. Maybe it is more simple than we make out.
Peace