I dream about evolution being true after getting some "signs" in real life

Hati

What ails them, that they turn away from the Reminder,

as if they were startled asses

fleeing -- before a lion?

Nay, every man of them desires to be -- given -- scrolls unrolled.

Zidane

Peace jonny_k,

I'll try to look into your video suggestions when I get some more time.

I do find the idea of evolution as an onging God-designed process, under God's laws, interesting. It might be how God gradually added new designs/species into His existing creation.

In the mean time, could you please answer/reply the points in my previous post first?
Link http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13244.msg171844#msg171844

Point by point

Mud (protein based or whatever) can never turn into a single cell "life."
Single cell life forms, fish, dogs, apes and dog's can't encode things into their genomes. "Lower" lifes didn't design the "eye", "heart", "arm", etc.
An African or Asian person is as much human as any of you (I say this because racists like to put that view that we're "sub-human" or less evolved/developed than them and I hope you don't believe it too). According to the biology I learnt, if we're not same "homo sapiens" then the children of cross race wouldn't be able to reproduce anymore (for example the offspirng of a horse and a donkey can't reproduct anymore...)

3.1 How are other "nations" more evolved/better than them? Comparing by the face that someone look more similar to apes would not be an evidence, right?
3.2 When I was younger, I also used to see someone looks so much like a pig, but I didn't conclude that he evolved from a pig. I'm sure you agree too.

Your human genome/body/design you're living in is designed and encoded by apes?

In addition to my previous post, somes questions i ask myself similar to the following also make be understand that there is Intelligent Design.

The complex biosphere we're living in right now, food chain, oxygen cycle, ecosystem, we're living right now, natural instinct - was clearly designed to work together in harmony - by the same designer.

5.2 The baby human just knew that it needed to suckle the milk from the mother.
5.3 The baby bird knew that it had to cry and open its mouth for food from its mother.

Lastly, what do you think after watching, if you have time, this "creationist" video
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zTXxpXOoe0

I like the dinosaur part...

May God Bless.

Peace,
Zidane.

Hati

Peace,
Respectfully.

Humans did not evolve from apes, because of the one really big proof DNA.
If we came from the apes, we need to ask ourselves this what caused the change, will it happen again and why don't today's apes change into more humans, better yet, why don't today's humans change into apes?

Glory be to our God.
God bless you all.
Peace.

Human evolution is not hinged on Ape evolution, far beyon that. God's creation is not comparable to human invention. His creation is perfect so that everything will evolve from the creation of the earth. No repairs needed.

Hati

jonny_k

Peace "zidane",

Peace jonny_k,

I'll try to look into your video suggestions when I get some more time.

JK- Yes plz do.

I do find the idea of evolution as an onging God-designed process, under God's laws, interesting. It might be how God gradually added new designs/species into His existing creation.

In the mean time, could you please answer/reply the points in my previous post first?
Link http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13244.msg171844#msg171844

Point by point

Mud (protein based or whatever) can never turn into a single cell "life."

JK- This is related to the theory of "abiogenesis" and is not part of evolution which deals only in matters once life has already started. Althoug abiogenesis is still not cplete there are some very good theories on how life started from non living minerals. One of those theories is the "clay hypothesis" which matches with the Quran
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenesis#Clay_theory
Also the discovery of RNA has been great evidence for abiogenesis since RNA can store information like DNA and also catalyze reactions like proteins (enzymes) which may have supported cellular or pre-cellular life.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenesis#.22Genes_first.22_models_the_RNA_world

Single cell life forms, fish, dogs, apes and dog's can't encode things into their genomes. "Lower" lifes didn't design the "eye", "heart", "arm", etc.

JK- Yes they can encode new things into their genomes VIA MUTATIONS AND CHANGE IN ALLELE FREQUNCY.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutation
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_drift
Single cells continue to react with their environment absorbing minerals and later other materials from life forms around them and producing a huge number of mutations all according to GOD's set laws of chemistry which then produce many features on the macro level. Then the environment selects for the beneficial ones and weeds out the non beneficial ones with every sub sequent generation. Animals/plants which have already reached a signficnt complex level then work more with things/features they already have, only occasionally showing up a new feature like the bacteria which evolved to digest nylon. Living examples of transitional forms would be
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mud_skipper
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_fish

An African or Asian person is as much human as any of you (I say this because racists like to put that view that we're "sub-human" or less evolved/developed than them and I hope you don't believe it too). According to the biology I learnt, if we're not same "homo sapiens" then the children of cross race wouldn't be able to reproduce anymore (for example the offspirng of a horse and a donkey can't reproduct anymore...)

JK- Those who support evolution are actually less racists. Who were the racists back before Darwin even came into the picture? It were the evangelical Christians who beleived Jesus was in favor of the white people. Evolution has set clear boundaries for what is human and we can do DNA testing to be sure if the creature is human or not. A creationist might look at a apparently strange creature in the jungle and say "oh thts just an ape kill him" whilst those whove studied evolution will go down into minute details to figure it out. So again evolution is by no means more racist.

3.1 How are other "nations" more evolved/better than them? Comparing by the face that someone look more similar to apes would not be an evidence, right?

JK- Exactly its DNA what counts. If there are 23 pairs of chromosmes with the fusion site at chromosome 2 then its most definitely a human no matter whether he/she may look apelike on the phenotype level i.e. in his/her body as viewed with the naked eye.

3.2 When I was younger, I also used to see someone looks so much like a pig, but I didn't conclude that he evolved from a pig. I'm sure you agree too.

JK- Exactly my point which ive explained above. Animals may look similar on the phenotype level due to convergent evolution(similar features evolved due to the animal transversing similar environemtal conditions, see http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convergent_evolution) e.g. is the platypus which has a duck like bill. However if we study it genetially well find tht bill's made of a leather like substance and not keratin as those in birds.

Your human genome/body/design you're living in is designed and encoded by apes?

JK- The organism never consiously knows what it's encoding. This is in the SYSTEM of nature as GOD has calculated it from the beginning. And yes the 23 pairs of chromosomes in humans and all the other human traits evolved out of apelike creatures.

In addition to my previous post, somes questions i ask myself similar to the following also make be understand that there is Intelligent Design.

The complex biosphere we're living in right now, food chain, oxygen cycle, ecosystem, we're living right now, natural instinct - was clearly designed to work together in harmony - by the same designer.

JK- It was designed FROM THE BEGINNING at the big bang. GOD didnt need to intervene again and again. He calculated everything perfectly and so it evolved over time just like the starts, planets, comets etc.

5.2 The baby human just knew that it needed to suckle the milk from the mother.

JK- Yes because GOD set up a system which would evolve a baby in such a way that itd derive benefits from knowing this and thus do it. So GOD gave it that ability but He didnt need to intervene at some point in the universe and say "Oh lets give the baby another feature i havnt though off be4". Get my pt?

5.3 The baby bird knew that it had to cry and open its mouth for food from its mother.

JK- Same as above.

Lastly, what do you think after watching, if you have time, this "creationist" video
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zTXxpXOoe0

I like the dinosaur part...

May God Bless.

Peace,
Zidane.

JK- These are all young earth creationist biased claims to make the BIBLE, NOT the Quran, appear literally true which we all know its not. Beleive me i did fall into their trap ocne but ive seen wht frauds they are. This has all been answered. See
http//www.talkorigins.org/faqs/po-halos/
http//www.talkorigins.org/faqs/nri.html
If this were true unbiased scientists from all over the world wldve accepted this withut problem. GOD Bless!

Zidane

Peace jonny_k,

Wow, that's so much detail!

Thanks very much for your detailed explanations and links.

I do find it very interesting - I'll try to research through them part by part when I get time.

I was thinkiig about this mutation thing for quite a while... it didn't seem to fit into the "sudden creation" i used to fully agree with - but now I'm a truth seeker so I must be sincerely unbiased and research both ways more to see the truth and understand/learn about God's creation more.

I used to be too negative about evolution because I felt it was like "life develops itself - no God" but now I learn that it can be like "life gradually develop according to God's laws/system".

Thanks again for sharing your knowledge. bravo

May God Bless,
Zidane.

jonny_k

Peace "zidane",
Your welcome GOD Bless!

Zidane

Greetings jk,

Thanks again for sharing your knowledge. I learned a lot more from you.

However, after my short research... I'd have to say I'm not convinxed that evolution is correct. Maybe I have to learn more, but I really can't see how a single cell life-form turned into myself by mutation, natural selction and genetic drift - all the complex genome data can't just be encoded by itself/chace that it had the eye, hand, brain, heart, nervous system, etc. For me, empytiness/chance can't create/design anything.

I also describe about the "no intervention" idea below.

JK- Yes plz do.

I saw that video and firstly it made me think that we are really from apelike animals... but now I understand that it is not a problem if God Created things in a similar way. So many life is so near in the Creation. I do not, however, yet understand about its merging exactly - I would say that there's no evidence for me that it really "merged" even though it look like it merged - that virus thing also - it could be for any reason which we don't know - I don't know at least. Same as I would not say that a man looking like a pig came from a pig.

About the part he said we, and other animals had "inherited" parts in the genome that aren't used (like that virus thing or whatever) - I'd say how can he claim that he knows what is "not used"? If he can claim that then let them design a human genome themselves from ATCG if they really know what's better, what's used, what's not used in the genome.

Please tell me which verse God talks about creating single-cell life from clay then he turned it into other species... then he created the human from the evolved ape-like being.

I see

1526 And We have created man from a clay hardened and shaped.
...
1529 So when I perfect him, and blow of My Spirit in him, you shall yield to him.

JK- This is related to the theory of "abiogenesis" and is not part of evolution which deals only in matters once life has already started. Althoug abiogenesis is still not cplete there are some very good theories on how life started from non living minerals. One of those theories is the "clay hypothesis" which matches with the Quran
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenesis#Clay_theory

Please tell me which verse God talks about creating single-cell life from clay... same as above.

JK- Yes they can encode new things into their genomes VIA MUTATIONS AND CHANGE IN ALLELE FREQUNCY.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutation
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_drift
Single cells continue to react with their environment absorbing minerals and later other materials from life forms around them and producing a huge number of mutations all according to GOD's set laws of chemistry which then produce many features on the macro level. Then the environment selects for the beneficial ones and weeds out the non beneficial ones with every sub sequent generation. Animals/plants which have already reached a signficnt complex level then work more with things/features they already have, only occasionally showing up a new feature like the bacteria which evolved to digest nylon. Living examples of transitional forms would be
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mud_skipper
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_fish

After my short research on both ways, I'd like to say that I found really little sense that mutations could become beneficial/development into new species. Among others, in http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutation you suggested. Mutations are happening naturally but are almost always making things worse than the original design.

You can also see now the human beings are less strong than before... for examples, consider the humans in Petra.

Mutation and evolution are two different things

Mutation generally makes things worse - and mutation + natural selection can't design an eye from an animal with no eyes.

I think this video describes this perfectly, Especially the part about the sudden life pop-up in The Cambrian Period.
http//video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6659285782452089140&q=evolution&ei=Jh18SIXWBoe-wgOwqcxY

I now stand that mutations can't make an eye develop from a life that hasn't got an eye.

JK- Those who support evolution are actually less racists. Who were the racists back before Darwin even came into the picture? It were the evangelical Christians who beleived Jesus was in favor of the white people. Evolution has set clear boundaries for what is human and we can do DNA testing to be sure if the creature is human or not. A creationist might look at a apparently strange creature in the jungle and say "oh thts just an ape kill him" whilst those whove studied evolution will go down into minute details to figure it out. So again evolution is by no means more racist.

I'm not talking about what each tend to support. I'm talking about the apelike to man evolution theory shows that some races (as you described more "apelike&quot are less developed or lower than others - while we are same homo sapiens - as described by Quran
4913 O mankind, We created you from a male and female, and We made you into nations and tribes, that you may know one another. Surely, the most honorable among you in the sight of God is the most righteous. God is Knowledgeable, Expert.

JK- Exactly its DNA what counts. If there are 23 pairs of chromosmes with the fusion site at chromosome 2 then its most definitely a human no matter whether he/she may look apelike on the phenotype level i.e. in his/her body as viewed with the naked eye.

Already commented earlier above.

JK- Exactly my point which ive explained above. Animals may look similar on the phenotype level due to convergent evolution(similar features evolved due to the animal transversing similar environemtal conditions, see http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convergent_evolution) e.g. is the platypus which has a duck like bill. However if we study it genetially well find tht bill's made of a leather like substance and not keratin as those in birds.

I don't understand how this relates.

JK- The organism never consiously knows what it's encoding. This is in the SYSTEM of nature as GOD has calculated it from the beginning. And yes the 23 pairs of chromosomes in humans and all the other human traits evolved out of apelike creatures.

Already commented on this.

JK- It was designed FROM THE BEGINNING at the big bang. GOD didnt need to intervene again and again. He calculated everything perfectly and so it evolved over time just like the starts, planets, comets etc.

The idea that God wouldn't "intervene" in his creation is very against the Quran to me - especially as discussed about the "no miracles?" thread.

If God woudn't "intervene" then there is nothing as "revelation" too, so you can possibly throw away all "miracles" including the current preserved Quran, "19", science in Quran, or http//www.free-minds.org/articles/gods_system/koran.htm , etc. I can't understand that all of that just happened by "chance" like in mutation and natural selection, genetic drift.

Also if you believe God just made the Big Bang and left... so maybe there's no reason to ask ("dua&quot God for help in anything - because He won't "intervene"?

JK- Yes because GOD set up a system which would evolve a baby in such a way that itd derive benefits from knowing this and thus do it. So GOD gave it that ability but He didnt need to intervene at some point in the universe and say "Oh lets give the baby another feature i havnt though off be4". Get my pt?

Same as about "intervene" above. My point was that, God taught the baby, not the mutation.

JK- These are all young earth creationist biased claims to make the BIBLE, NOT the Quran, appear literally true which we all know its not. Beleive me i did fall into their trap ocne but ive seen wht frauds they are. This has all been answered. See
http//www.talkorigins.org/faqs/po-halos/
http//www.talkorigins.org/faqs/nri.html
If this were true unbiased scientists from all over the world wldve accepted this withut problem. GOD Bless!

I don't expect all poeple to be wrong on all things just because they're from a particular group.

As i said above, http//video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6659285782452089140&q=evolution&ei=Jh18SIXWBoe-wgOwqcxY describes it much better.

Peace & Respect.
Zidane.

jonny_k

Peace "Zidane",

Thanks again for sharing your knowledge. I learned a lot more from you.

However, after my short research... I'd have to say I'm not convinxed that evolution is correct. Maybe I have to learn more, but I really can't see how a single cell life-form turned into myself by mutation, natural selction and genetic drift - all the complex genome data can't just be encoded by itself/chace that it had the eye, hand, brain, heart, nervous system, etc. For me, empytiness/chance can't create/design anything.

JK-AGAIN you bring up chance. Natural selection is ANYTHING BUT RANDOM/CHANCE. GOD fixed the constants in the universe which allowed the basic elementary particles to SELF ASSEMBLE into stars, planets, comets and living things. Did you understand this now?

I also describe about the "no intervention" idea below.
I saw that video and firstly it made me think that we are really from apelike animals... but now I understand that it is not a problem if God Created things in a similar way. So many life is so near in the Creation. I do not, however, yet understand about its merging exactly - I would say that there's no evidence for me that it really "merged" even though it look like it merged - that virus thing also - it could be for any reason which we don't know - I don't know at least. Same as I would not say that a man looking like a pig came from a pig.

JK- NO viruses are harmful and ERVs don?t have any function NEITHER would you want them to get activated coz they can cause terrible diseases if they do and all biologists know this. They have been PROVEN to act as markers ONLY and have NO BENEFIT. So either GOD put something useless and/or harmful into our bodies or theyr there as remnants. Regarding the fusion again I need to ask you ?WHY DOES GOD, VIA THE APPARENT FUSION, MAKE IT LOOK AS IF THOUGH WE EVOLVED BUT INFACT HE CREATED US SEPARETLY? Does GOD deceive us in nature? Isnt tht total contray to the Quran which asks us to look around us to see His signs??. Again there are many other ways GOD clve created us SO THT WE LOOK ALIKE just like now, function just like now but don?t carry such a fusion. Moreover I already explained to you that just coz something looks similar as something else doesn?t ofcourse mean it evolved. Consider the koala BEAR and panda BEAR. BUT every scientists knows koalas are just conventionally named bears coz they look alike but infact they do not belong in tht category. They belong to the marsupials.

About the part he said we, and other animals had "inherited" parts in the genome that aren't used (like that virus thing or whatever) - I'd say how can he claim that he knows what is "not used"? If he can claim that then let them design a human genome themselves from ATCG if they really know what's better, what's used, what's not used in the genome.

JK- Im sorry to say but this shows you don?t have much knowledge of science. ERVs have been PROVEN to be harmful. Theyr viruses not just some ?junk? DNA where we might just say tht we don?t know its use yet. And then you bring in back that red herring that let them design something better. GOD designed us via evolutionary processes IN STAGES. He did NOT create us instantly, nor any other stuff in the universe.

Please tell me which verse God talks about creating single-cell life from clay then he turned it into other species... then he created the human from the evolved ape-like being.

I see

1526 And We have created man from a clay hardened and shaped.
...
1529 ?So when I perfect him, and blow of My Spirit in him, you shall yield to him.?

JK- You only quoted two verses and forgot to quote those which detail the stages which lead upto there. Here
O people, if you have any doubt about resurrection, (remember that) we created you from dust/minerals, and subsequently from a tiny drop, which turns into a hanging (embryo), then it becomes a fetus that is given life or deemed lifeless. We thus clarify things for you. We settle in the wombs whatever we will for a predetermined period. We then bring you out as infants, then you reach maturity. While some of you die young, others live to the worst age, only to find out that no more knowledge can be attained beyond a certain limit. Also, you look at a land that is dead, then as soon as we shower it with water, it vibrates with life and grows all kinds of beautiful plants.

Now where does the Quran say that we started out as adults?

Is it not a fact that there was a time when the human being was something not worth to be mentioned?

Some might interpret this as ?sperm? but don?t forget GOD did MENTION that already in the Quran.

He is the One who CREATED you in STAGES.
And GOD germinated you from the earth like plants.

Please tell me which verse God talks about creating single-cell life from clay... same as above.

JK- Explained above.

After my short research on both ways, I'd like to say that I found really little sense that mutations could become beneficial/development into new species. Among others, in http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutation you suggested. Mutations are happening naturally but are almost always making things worse than the original design.

JK- NO theyr NEUTRAL most of the time. Then yes there are many harmful ones but just like you ALMOST. Those little beneficial mutations every now and then allow the ntural environment to select it and pass it onto the next generation. It?s as simple as that and I gave you an example of a bacteria adapting to consume nylon, a feature previously unavailable.

You can also see now the human beings are less strong than before... for examples, consider the humans in Petra.

JK- Humans have not shown to be overall less strong. This is another myth. Infact science and medicine improved our lives. 2ndly even if it were so it could be as a result of human behaviour. If for example we become lazy and only use cars and other vehicles to travel we might not be as strong anymore. Evolution can GO IN ANY DIRECTION. GOD also says that if we do not obey Him Hed substitute us with others
If He wills, He can annihilate you, O people, and substitute others in your place. GOD is certainly able to do this.
Do you not realize that GOD has created the heavens and the earth for a specific purpose? If He wills, He can remove you, and substitute a new creation in your place.

Mutation and evolution are two different things

JK- Mutation IS A PART OF evolution. Again this shows you need to do much more research.

Mutation generally makes things worse - and mutation + natural selection can't design an eye from an animal with no eyes.

JK- This is just plain silly. Eyes don?t just popup suddenly. First theyr simple photosensitive cells and those can via mutations and natural selection gradually, according to GOD?s fixed laws, evolve into perfectly functional and complex eyes.

I think this video describes this perfectly, Especially the part about the sudden life pop-up in The Cambrian Period.
http//video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6659285782452089140&q=evolution&ei=Jh18SIXWBoe-wgOwqcxY

JK- Another confusion. Cambrian life didnt just POPUP within 2nds. Yes it evolved relatively FAST during tht period as compared to other time periods but spanning also many 10s of millions of yrs. Read
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambrian_Explosion
http//www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CC/CC300.html
Creationists do a lot of quote mining on the Cambrian issue
http//www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CC/CC300.html
The reason why we suddenly see some significant changes in the phenotype is punctuated equilibrium as opposed to continuous gradual change here
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punctuated_equalibrium

I now stand that mutations can't make an eye develop from a life that hasn't got an eye.

JK- http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye#Evolution_of_eyes
You need to do alot more reading on the topic of evolution as creationists have apparently induced in you the same lies as they once did with me.

I'm not talking about what each tend to support. I'm talking about the apelike to man evolution theory shows that some races (as you described more "apelike&quot are less developed or lower than others - while we are same homo sapiens - as described by Quran
4913 O mankind, We created you from a male and female, and We made you into nations and tribes, that you may know one another. Surely, the most honorable among you in the sight of God is the most righteous. God is Knowledgeable, Expert.

JK- This is not true either. Check ?punctuated equilibrium? above and see that the changes are not continuously gradual. The last ape-like ancesters had accumulated mutations in their genotype and then the next generation gave rise to what can perfectly be termed as humans. After that it?s all humans and today we can easily tell what is human thanks to DNA analysis. NO RACES are considered lower than others by evolution because theyr ALL CLASSIFIED AS HUMAN BY EVOLUTIONARY BIOLOGISTS AND PALAENTOLOGISTS.

Already commented earlier above.

JK- Also see above.

I don't understand how this relates.

JK- I was agreeing with you saying that just because things look similar on the phenotype level theyr not necessarily related. IT?S THE GEENTIC SIMILARITIES, VESTIGIAL HOMOLOGY i.e. SAME ORGANS WHICH HAVE LESS FUNCTION IN NEWER SEPCIES AS COMPARED TO OLDER ONES, JUNK DNA AND TRANSPOSONS, ERVs and CHROMOSME FUSION. All these features show that all life is related i.e. shares a common ancestor and they?ve not just to do with mere similarities. Try to understand this.

The idea that God wouldn't "intervene" in his creation is very against the Quran to me - especially as discussed about the "no miracles?" thread.

JK- 1st id like to point out that even sunnis/shia admit that GOD didn?t create the stars, earth, sun, moon spontaneously. 2ndly miracle interoretation of the Quran is nonsense as explained by brother Arnold. Plz read G.A Pervez or Dr. Shabbir?s translations and see the difference. Remember they did not invent any meanings but used classical Arabic dictionaries to understand the Quran which is obviously more accurate than using biased and modern Arabic to interpret the Quran. 3rdly GOD intervening every now and then IS NOT A MIRACLE in except in the opinion of perhaps creationists. Any rational men would not appreciate a god creating via such interventions because it means He needed to think before creating something new. Otherwise why wouldn?t He just setup laws which would automatically result in the creation of the beings at their appropriate time? THIS infact is A REAL MIRACLE. Ill give you an example here. Consider two engineers. One designs an aeroplane by assembling it piece by piece. He intervenes every now and then to add an additional feature. THE OTHER calculates everything in advance and then tosses out particles into space that they SELF ASSEMBLE INTO A PLANE and it AUTOMATIICALLY attains the required features over time. Do you now see how miraculous and exciting evolution really is?

If God woudn't "intervene" then there is nothing as "revelation" too, so you can possibly throw away all "miracles" including the current preserved Quran, "19", science in Quran, or http//www.free-minds.org/articles/gods_system/koran.htm , etc. I can't understand that all of that just happened by "chance" like in mutation and natural selection, genetic drift.

JK- Again and again you say ?chance, chance, chance?. Its not chance. It was all calculated by GOD in advance and the system is running.

Also if you believe God just made the Big Bang and left... so maybe there's no reason to ask ("dua&quot God for help in anything - because He won't "intervene"?

JK- GOD makes it clear in the Quran that only those prayers are accepted which are ALREADY in accordance with GOD?s Will.
And he(Jacob) said, "O my sons, do not enter from one door; enter through separate doors. However, I cannot save you from anything that is predetermined by GOD. To GOD belongs all judgments. I trust in Him, and in Him shall all the trusters put their trust."

Nothing happens to you except in accordance with GOD's will?
Whatever you will is in accordance with GOD's will. GOD is Omniscient, Wise.

Thus prayer if done ITSELF is in accordance with GOD?s Will and not separate. This shows you havnt read or understood the Quran properly.

Same as about "intervene" above. My point was that, God taught the baby, not the mutation.

JK- Mutation is just one part of the Divinely created process which lead to the baby as explained many times above.

I don't expect all poeple to be wrong on all things just because they're from a particular group.

As i said above, http//video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6659285782452089140&q=evolution&ei=Jh18SIXWBoe-wgOwqcxY describes it much better.

JK- I hope after going through the details above in this post youll see why this video does not convey the truth. Creationists are mostly only evangelical Christians and ?Muslims? later copied from their sites. Ever wondered why no other scientists(and thts 99.9% of them) support creationism no matter what part of the world they come from? So either they are all wrong and evangelical Christianity(Note Catholics accepted evolution) is right or they, the independent scientists are right and the evangelicals are wrong once again as they are on so many issues. GOD Bless!

Zidane

Peace jk,

Thanks again for your detailed reply. I'll try to research through them when I can.

I'd just like to say that I talked about "chance" because there's so many versions of evolution out there, from what i was reading it's always talking about random change working for mutation then natural selection selects the fittest - but your version is "God calculated" them since the start of the universe - so I was not understanding your theory well on this.

As for now, after reading your reply, many things you say still don't make sense to me. Perhaps I'll try to do more research on this in the future - thanks for help explaining in detail about how you understand.

Also, I'm sure you know this - but I like to say this to be moderate on such issues, no matter a person understands the "no miracles/intervention" way or the miracle way - we can still be good people who believe in God alone. I see this as an extra topic. Even if I'm wrong or right, I don't see understanding this "how" God actually created things as essential to being a successful servant of God (I'm sure many believers with the various prophets didn't read charls darwin's theory in their lives or understand RNAs or whatever you're saying...) - since it's not that clear in the Quran (for readers like me, perhaps) about the details as such.

As for what I have knowledge of, I must say the points you say about the Quran supporting evolution is not clear to me

Peace "Zidane",
JK-AGAIN you bring up chance. Natural selection is ANYTHING BUT RANDOM/CHANCE. GOD fixed the constants in the universe which allowed the basic elementary particles to SELF ASSEMBLE into stars, planets, comets and living things. Did you understand this now?

Sure natural selection is not chance, but I was talking about mutations.

JK- NO viruses are harmful and ERVs dont have any function NEITHER would you want them to get activated coz they can cause terrible diseases if they do and all biologists know this. They have been PROVEN to act as markers ONLY and have NO BENEFIT. So either GOD put something useless and/or harmful into our bodies or theyr there as remnants. Regarding the fusion again I need to ask you WHY DOES GOD, VIA THE APPARENT FUSION, MAKE IT LOOK AS IF THOUGH WE EVOLVED BUT INFACT HE CREATED US SEPARETLY? Does GOD deceive us in nature? Isnt tht total contray to the Quran which asks us to look around us to see His signs?. Again there are many other ways GOD clve created us SO THT WE LOOK ALIKE just like now, function just like now but dont carry such a fusion. Moreover I already explained to you that just coz something looks similar as something else doesnt ofcourse mean it evolved. Consider the koala BEAR and panda BEAR. BUT every scientists knows koalas are just conventionally named bears coz they look alike but infact they do not belong in tht category. They belong to the marsupials.

JK- Im sorry to say but this shows you dont have much knowledge of science. ERVs have been PROVEN to be harmful. Theyr viruses not just some junk DNA where we might just say tht we dont know its use yet. And then you bring in back that red herring that let them design something better. GOD designed us via evolutionary processes IN STAGES. He did NOT create us instantly, nor any other stuff in the universe.

Yes, perhaps I have really little knowledge of science. With my little knowledge of sceince as you say, things that look similar don't make sense that they came from each other. The ERV parts in the genome of humans are harmful? So we are all infected? - The viruses themselves are, but not the part that looks like them in our genome. Surely God doesn't deceive, but people can get deceived like the BEAR thing you say - people with less science like me thought that it looked like a bear so they called it so.

JK- You only quoted two verses and forgot to quote those which detail the stages which lead upto there. Here
O people, if you have any doubt about resurrection, (remember that) we created you from dust/minerals, and subsequently from a tiny drop, which turns into a hanging (embryo), then it becomes a fetus that is given life or deemed lifeless. We thus clarify things for you. We settle in the wombs whatever we will for a predetermined period. We then bring you out as infants, then you reach maturity. While some of you die young, others live to the worst age, only to find out that no more knowledge can be attained beyond a certain limit. Also, you look at a land that is dead, then as soon as we shower it with water, it vibrates with life and grows all kinds of beautiful plants.

Now where does the Quran say that we started out as adults?

Is it not a fact that there was a time when the human being was something not worth to be mentioned?

Some might interpret this as sperm but dont forget GOD did MENTION that already in the Quran.

He is the One who CREATED you in STAGES.
And GOD germinated you from the earth like plants.

Maybe I didn't forget, but those verses are, to me, talking about the development stages of the embryo which is a clear miracle of the quran explained in other verses. 761 isn't just sperm to me, it's anytime when you're not born yet. You think saying 761 to Muhammad himself and the believers with him and they would understand it as the darwinian ape-like animals? Maybe they know much less than you, but it doesn't mean they're wrong.

I still don't see how these verses support the idea of evolution

5514 He created the human from a clay, like pottery.
1526 And We have created man from a clay hardened and shaped.
1529 So when I perfect him, and blow of My Spirit in him, you shall yield to him.

JK- Explained above.
JK- NO theyr NEUTRAL most of the time. Then yes there are many harmful ones but just like you ALMOST. Those little beneficial mutations every now and then allow the ntural environment to select it and pass it onto the next generation. Its as simple as that and I gave you an example of a bacteria adapting to consume nylon, a feature previously unavailable.

JK- This is just plain silly. Eyes dont just popup suddenly. First theyr simple photosensitive cells and those can via mutations and natural selection gradually, according to GODs fixed laws, evolve into perfectly functional and complex eyes.

So photosensitive celss are developed by mutations? Show me a living example.
The http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye#Evolution_of_eyes doesn't make any concrete evidence to me.
But how does it make a new design of organs from mutations? Show me a true example. I know little.

JK- 1st id like to point out that even sunnis/shia admit that GOD didnt create the stars, earth, sun, moon spontaneously. 2ndly miracle interoretation of the Quran is nonsense as explained by brother Arnold. Plz read G.A Pervez or Dr. Shabbirs translations and see the difference. Remember they did not invent any meanings but used classical Arabic dictionaries to understand the Quran which is obviously more accurate than using biased and modern Arabic to interpret the Quran. 3rdly GOD intervening every now and then IS NOT A MIRACLE in except in the opinion of perhaps creationists. Any rational men would not appreciate a god creating via such interventions because it means He needed to think before creating something new. Otherwise why wouldnt He just setup laws which would automatically result in the creation of the beings at their appropriate time? THIS infact is A REAL MIRACLE. Ill give you an example here. Consider two engineers. One designs an aeroplane by assembling it piece by piece. He intervenes every now and then to add an additional feature. THE OTHER calculates everything in advance and then tosses out particles into space that they SELF ASSEMBLE INTO A PLANE and it AUTOMATIICALLY attains the required features over time. Do you now see how miraculous and exciting evolution really is?
JK- Again and again you say chance, chance, chance. Its not chance. It was all calculated by GOD in advance and the system is running.
JK- GOD makes it clear in the Quran that only those prayers are accepted which are ALREADY in accordance with GODs Will.
And he(Jacob) said, "O my sons, do not enter from one door; enter through separate doors. However, I cannot save you from anything that is predetermined by GOD. To GOD belongs all judgments. I trust in Him, and in Him shall all the trusters put their trust."

Nothing happens to you except in accordance with GOD's will
Whatever you will is in accordance with GOD's will. GOD is Omniscient, Wise.

Thus prayer if done ITSELF is in accordance with GODs Will and not separate. This shows you havnt read or understood the Quran properly

Yes, maybe I haven't read the quran "properly" in your way enough to understand that Jesus was born with a father or the sea didn't separate before moses or Abraham was not miraculously saved by God by cooling the fire, as in the "no miracles way". I remember discussing this with Arnold in the "no miracles?" thread. I respect your views but I can't see true to me it yet.

How does revelation work then? If it's not a miracle then Muhammad just wrote it up? So, the Quran is not a miracle?
Why isn't the quran changed much like the other books? ...But the hadith changed instead.
114 is not devisible by 19? ... All of this mathematical evidence is not showing a miracle by God's design of the Quran? http//www.19.org/index.php?id=14,31,0,0,1,0

Miracles show that the prophets are from God, like Moses throwing the staff and it became a snake in truth - while magic is falsehood so the magicians realize that the power that changed that staff is a miracle - the power of the creator himself. There are so many instances in the Quran of so many miracles that God showed as signs.

I do read the QXP as I learned a lot from its relevancy of continuing verses (and I developed a mobile software version of it as requested by brother "Max" too.) - but not its part about evolution yet.

Sorry if i went off-topic.

Peace,
Zidane.

Zidane

Greetings Jk,

My apology, I admit that I got driven away last time again, and went off-topic.

This video, http//youtube.com/watch?v=8FGYzZOZxMw&feature=related you suggested, after a bit more sincrerity and the re-explanation/clarification about centromeres and telomeres i forgot mostly about, here
http//youtube.com/watch?v=8FGYzZOZxMw&feature=related

It's too clear, concrete evidence for me to not see that perhaps that's how life really is designed by God.

I, from what I learnt until now, sincerely, say that it's irrefutable about common ancestry.

It's just too clear as when I first found-out about quran-alone or 19, having said that, I still firmly understand, believe in miracles though.

I need to take my time to learn more, investigate carefully.

Thanks for your patience. )

Peace,
Zidane.

jonny_k

Peace jk,

Thanks again for your detailed reply. I'll try to research through them when I can.

I'd just like to say that I talked about "chance" because there's so many versions of evolution out there, from what i was reading it's always talking about random change working for mutation then natural selection selects the fittest - but your version is "God calculated" them since the start of the universe - so I was not understanding your theory well on this.

JK- All evolution scientists agree that the universe is ?fine tuned? so that life could evolve here on earth. Atheist scientists don?t disagree with that but they say that it coudlve been 1 out of many universes which just happened to be so etc. Most theistic evolutionists argue that this is spaced on mere speculation. I myself consider the existence of infinite universes inevitable AND ALSO the existence of GOD. To understand this you can read my posts where I prove the existence of GOD
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13448.msg113187#msg113187
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13807.0
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=16078.30 onwards
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=15072.msg145172#msg145172 onwards

As for now, after reading your reply, many things you say still don't make sense to me. Perhaps I'll try to do more research on this in the future - thanks for help explaining in detail about how you understand.

JK- Your welcome. I was just as reluctant as you back only two/three years. Here read these posts opf mine from the past. Now I laugh at them
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13378.msg112136#msg112136

Also, I'm sure you know this - but I like to say this to be moderate on such issues, no matter a person understands the "no miracles/intervention" way or the miracle way - we can still be good people who believe in God alone. I see this as an extra topic. Even if I'm wrong or right, I don't see understanding this "how" God actually created things as essential to being a successful servant of God (I'm sure many believers with the various prophets didn't read charls darwin's theory in their lives or understand RNAs or whatever you're saying...) - since it's not that clear in the Quran (for readers like me, perhaps) about the details as such.

JK- I believe I quoted verses in my previous posts showing that everything happens in ACCORDANCE WITH GOD?S WILL so it?s not necessary for Him to intervene and correct things. Regarding Charle?s Darwin he was NOT the 1st to discover evolution. Ibn-e-Khaldoon, a famous Muslim scholar, discovered this 500 years before Darwin was even born. I quote from his book al-muqaddimah(pg 74-75)
"This world with all the created things in it has a certain order and solid construction. It shows nexuses between causes and things caused, combinations of some parts of creation with others, and transformations of some existent things into others, in a pattern that is both remarkable and endless."
"One should then take a look at the world of creation. It started out from the minerals and progressed, in an ingenious, gradual manner, to plants and animals. The last stage of minerals is connected with the first stage of plants, such as herbs and seedless plants. The last stage of plants, such as palms and vines, is connected with the first stage of animals, such as snails and shellfish which have only the power of touch. The word 'connection' with regard to these created things means that the last stage of each group is fully prepared to become the first stage of the newest group."
"The animal world then widens, its species become numerous, and, in a gradual process of creation, it finally leads to man, who is able to think and reflect. The higher stage of man is reached from the world of monkeys, in which both sagacity and preception are found, but which has not reached the stage of actual reflection and thinking. At this point we come to the first stage of man. This is as far as our (physical) observation extends."

As for what I have knowledge of, I must say the points you say about the Quran supporting evolution is not clear to me

Sure natural selection is not chance, but I was talking about mutations.

JK- So what if one part of evolution is random. AND I must tell you at this point that the mutations which occur ONLY APPEAR random because we cannot exactly know the reason as to why and when certain mutations happen. But even mutations occur within NATURAL, i.e. DIVINE SET limits, i.e. the laws of chemistry.

Yes, perhaps I have really little knowledge of science. With my little knowledge of sceince as you say, things that look similar don't make sense that they came from each other. The ERV parts in the genome of humans are harmful? So we are all infected? - The viruses themselves are, but not the part that looks like them in our genome. Surely God doesn't deceive, but people can get deceived like the BEAR thing you say - people with less science like me thought that it looked like a bear so they called it so.

JK- YES we all have ERVs inside our bodies INHERITED genetically which are INACTIVE though at the moment. The viruses are THERE and should they get activated it could be a disaster but normally they don?t. If you don?t know this please read up on ERVs
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endogenous_retrovirus
http//talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section4.html#retroviruses

Maybe I didn't forget, but those verses are, to me, talking about the development stages of the embryo which is a clear miracle of the quran explained in other verses. 761 isn't just sperm to me, it's anytime when you're not born yet. You think saying 761 to Muhammad himself and the believers with him and they would understand it as the darwinian ape-like animals? Maybe they know much less than you, but it doesn't mean they're wrong.

JK- Yes and the Quran says we were embryos before we were adults. NOWHERE does it say we started out as adults. That?s my whole point. AND INDEED early Islamic scholars did understand that man evolved from apelike creatures. Please check the reference I gave above of Ibn-e-Khaldoon. ?Muslims? later took creationist idead from evangelical Christians.

I still don't see how these verses support the idea of evolution

5514 He created the human from a clay, like pottery.
1526 And We have created man from a clay hardened and shaped.
1529 ?So when I perfect him, and blow of My Spirit in him, you shall yield to him.?

JK- Ofcourse they do since they clearly state tht tht we came from minerals/dust initially, then more stages , then embryo, then infants AND ONLY AFTER ALL THAT ADULTS. The verse which says ?We germinated you from the earth like plants? is particularly clear and significantly refers to the phylogenetic tree of life
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phylogenetic_tree

So photosensitive celss are developed by mutations? Show me a living example.
The http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye#Evolution_of_eyes doesn't make any concrete evidence to me.
But how does it make a new design of organs from mutations? Show me a true example. I know little.

JK- The human eye CLEARLY evolved under evolutionary constraints. If that were not the case we wouldn?t have a blind spot. That?s not to show that GOD couldn?t design better BUT in order for Him to show that everything has a common ancestor, thus proving there is only One God for all, such is necessary otherwise like you said one can always say similar deisgn doesn?t mean evolution. Most importantly similar design doesn?t even mean commo designer as other designers cldve copied some part from the other and integrated that along with other features. Read these
http//wiki.cotch.net/index.php/Eye
http//wiki.cotch.net/index.php/The_eye_is_too_complex_to_have_evolved
http//wiki.cotch.net/index.php/What_use_is_half_an_eye%3F
http//wiki.cotch.net/index.php/Darwin_on_evolution_of_the_eye
Also what do you mean show me a true example? If bacteria can evolve to digest nylon which is a completely new trait and small changes can accumulate to give big changes over time what is the problem with eyes evolving and the structure of our eyes clearly shows that it evolved from simpler life forms? GOD has made it evident from the structures in nature that we evolved and were not created directly. It?s that simple.

Yes, maybe I haven't read the quran "properly" in your way enough to understand that Jesus was born with a father or the sea didn't separate before moses or Abraham was not miraculously saved by God by cooling the fire, as in the "no miracles way". I remember discussing this with Arnold in the "no miracles?" thread. I respect your views but I can't see true to me it yet.

JK- Youll need to delve more into classical Arabic and get out of the traditional interpretations influenced by modern Arabic and once again, I cant say this enough, EVANGELICAL Christianity.

How does revelation work then? If it's not a miracle then Muhammad just wrote it up? So, the Quran is not a miracle?
Why isn't the quran changed much like the other books? ...But the hadith changed instead.
114 is not devisible by 19? ... All of this mathematical evidence is not showing a miracle by God's design of the Quran? http//www.19.org/index.php?id=14,31,0,0,1,0

JK- So your saying that the Quran could not have designed by GOD via evolution as well? Does GOD need to intervene to bring about the Quran or could He have set the right timing in advance as to where and when the Quran would be revealed? Think about that.

Miracles show that the prophets are from God, like Moses throwing the staff and it became a snake in truth - while magic is falsehood so the magicians realize that the power that changed that staff is a miracle - the power of the creator himself. There are so many instances in the Quran of so many miracles that God showed as signs.

JK- These if they really meant what you just said would be absolutely useless to mention to us now unless theyd be repeatable which they arnt. How do such kind of ?miracles? help us? Also if I saw something like tht happen today I, to be honest, wldnt be impressed rather id say something is wrong. Because why does GOD need to suddenly show a refreshing sign out of this universe indicating that He didn?t know humans wld become so stubborn in advance so He needed to intervene? The real miracle is IN THE SYSTEM created by GOD and it is in continuous operation.

I do read the QXP as I learned a lot from its relevancy of continuing verses (and I developed a mobile software version of it as requested by brother "Max" too.) - but not its part about evolution yet.

Sorry if i went off-topic.

Peace,
Zidane.

JK- Ok maybe in the future. GW, youll understand evolution enough to accept it. Keep reading. GOD Bless!

jonny_k

Peace "zidane",

Greetings Jk,

My apology, I admit that I got driven away last time again, and went off-topic.

This video, http//youtube.com/watch?v=8FGYzZOZxMw&feature=related you suggested, after a bit more sincrerity and the re-explanation/clarification about centromeres and telomeres i forgot mostly about, here
http//youtube.com/watch?v=8FGYzZOZxMw&feature=related

It's too clear, concrete evidence for me to not see that perhaps that's how life really is designed by God.

JK- So are you beginning to accept common descent and evolution now?

I, from what I learnt until now, sincerely, say that it's irrefutable about common ancestry.

JK- So you agree that now theres clear evidence for common decent?

It's just too clear as when I first found-out about quran-alone or 19, having said that, I still firmly understand, believe in miracles though.

I need to take my time to learn more, investigate carefully.

Thanks for your patience.

Peace,
Zidane.

JK- You can beleive in "miracles" but believe me the real miracle are already integrated by GOD into the natural world. GOD Bless!

Zidane

Greetings again JK,

Thanks so much for all your patience and information you're providing, I really plan to go through them!

I understand what you mean about man from clay verses now - God didn't say immediately or exactly how in each stage...

I really admit the concrete evidence about common descent now, and evolution probably as God's process in Creation. Especially after that chromosome merge video.

As for the miracles discussion, I would just say that I can't see it that way from what I understand now.

In any sense, a revelation is a clear miracle to me. The preservation of the Quran, 19, self-reference count, symmetry, etc... as I posted are clear miracles/signs too.

Laws of God are on us, not on God - he is capable of all things - I wouldn't call his signs or help or revelations as intervention.

Anyway, thanks so much for the eye-opener on common ancestry! bravo

May God Bless.

Peace,
Zidane.

jonny_k

Peace "zidane",
Your welcom. GOD Bless!