Quran inheritance mistake
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Dear Nun de Plume,
As I was going over your posts to solve the mystery of kalalatan, I wanted to ask you why/on what basis you use 412 and not 4176 to determine the share of the sister in a scenario with 1 sister, 1 mother
How do you distinguish between the siblings' share in 412 and 4176?
Peace,
Onur -
Dear Nun de Plume,
As I was going over your posts to solve the mystery of kalalatan, I wanted to ask you why/on what basis you use 412 and not 4176 to determine the share of the sister in a scenario with 1 sister, 1 mother
How do you distinguish between the siblings' share in 412 and 4176?
Peace,
OnurHello Onur -- hope all is well.
4176 only deals with how to distribute 1/3 (if parent/s alive) or the whole if no parents amongst 2+ siblings
Case mother, sister (does not involve 2+ siblings, use 412)
1 - 1/6 sister = 5/6 mother412...and if (he) was/is a man to be inherited kalalatan (without child) or a woman (wife), and for him (is) a brother, or a sister, so for each one from them (B) the 1/6, so if they were more than that, so they are partners in the 1/3
IF 1 sister 1/6 from total inheritance
IF 1 brother 1/6 from total inheritance
IF 2+ siblings they all together get 1/3 from total inheritance (see 4176 on how to distribute)4176 They ask your opinion/clarification , say "God decrees/decides in alkalalati, if (a) man/human died, not for him (without) a child, and for him (is) a sister, so for her half what he left, and he inherits her if (there) was not for her a child??
Case mother, sister, brother (2+ siblings thus 1/3 is used from 412)
1 ? 1/3 (sister + brother share from 412) = 2/3 mothersister gets 1/2 of 1/3 as does the brother else without a parent they each get 1/2 of the whole.
Refer to the prior template...
Here is a recap of inheritance verses with no contradictions, surpluses, etc., along with attached pdf and cases examples.
Peace
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Hi Nun,
The last sentence of 4176 indeed concerns how to distribute in a case when the al kalalati has more than two siblings. But the first part involving "she gets 1/2" and "he inherits her" precedes and is independent of the condition (more than two siblings) Which still leaves me with the puzzle of what the sister of the alkalalati gets, 1/2(4176) or 1/6(412) in a case with parents(assuming that we accept kalalatan=childless and spouseless) -
Hi Onur,
412 stipulates case for 1 sister OR 1 brother ? they get 1/6 from total inheritance.
Else IF 2 or more they get 1/3 which is divided according to 4176
4176 "she gets 1/2" and "he inherits her" is case for 2 siblings; 1 sister + 1 brother.
The above cannot be the case IF only 1 sibling for that case has already been given in 412
Therefore...
Case sister; brother; mother; father
1 ? 1/3 (sister + brother from 412) = 2/3 (1/6 mother + 1/2 father)Thus sister gets ? * (1/3) or 1/6 as does the brother while parents get the rest.
Why spouseless?
Salaam Samia,
It?s stated that the kalalatan man in 412 has no woman (i.e. spouse)
Likewise, the alkalalati person in 4176 must also be spouseless if terms are same.
4176 They ask your clarification, say "God decrees in alkalalati, if (a) human died....
Qur?an gives the definition ? in 412 kalalatan is spouseless and 4176 childless. Thus if we combine the two descriptions, closest translation for kalalatan would be a ?loner? person unmarried and childless.
Peace
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Salaam Nun
Thank you for the replyAre you sure it's not
If a man, or a woman, inherited as a kilala?
This means "man" in this verse is gendered, and not generic.
That's because generalization here does not apply. If he has a wife, she will inherit 25% of his inheritance and if she has a husband he inherits 1/2 (when there are no children) and this case is explained in the beginning of the verse.
More over, the definition given for kilala is that a man (here is genderic) who dies leaving no children. It did not say (nor a wife).
The definition -
Hi Samia,
Please solve according to your understanding...
Case wife, sister, brother
I have it the wife gets the whole inheritance and siblings get nothing since 412 and 4176 are not applicable being there is a spouse same as if the person had children which they would also get the whole thing.
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Hi Nun,
I do not see from a literal reading of 4176 that the brother and the sister need to be together.
I think that 4176 reads as follows if an alkalalati man dies and has a sister, she gets 1/2 and if an alkalalati woman dies and has a brother, he "inherits her". There is no indication that the sister of the alkalalati man has also a brother.
How do you infer that the siblings in the first part of 4176 are 1 brother AND 1 sister? From what I can see, there is no explicit or implicit reference to this AND. -
Hi Onur,
Good observation...
412 sister gets 1/6
4176 sister gets 1/2It appears the above is a quagmire unless alkalalati in 4176 is fatherless.
IF spouseless/childless kalalatan (i.e. loner)
412...and if (he) was/is a man to be inherited kalalatan (without child) or a woman (wife), and for him (is) a brother, or a sister, so for each one from them the 1/6, so if they were more than that, so they are partners in the 1/3Case sister, father
1 ? 1/6 sister = 5/6 fatherIF fatherless/spouseless/childless alkalalati (the loner)
4176 They ask your opinion/clarification , say "God decrees/decides in alkalalati, if (a) man/human died, not for him (without) a child, and for him (is) a sister, so for her half what he left, and he inherits her if (there) was not for her a child, and if they were two, so to them the two thirds from what he left, and if they were brothers (siblings) men and women, so to the male equal/alike (the) share (of) the two females, God clarifies for you that (E) you (not) be misguided, and God is with everything knowledgeable.Case sister, mother
1 ? ? sister = ? motherThe above is the only thing which makes sense in that 411-12 starts with children, then spouses, then parents, and finally how to deal with childless/spouseless and fatherless loner.
I"ll need to re-visit and check everything again -- this God math is perplexing.
peace
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Hi Nun,
I agree that there must be a differentiation betwen the kalalatan in 412 and 4176. Otherwise, we have different shares for the same cases.(Samia that is the problem that we are trying to solve. That is why we are trying to come up with multiple definitions for kalalatan)
Your proposal is a possibility. Unfortunately, all we can do is to guess and use logic to differentiate between the share of siblings for 412 and 4176.
I want to ask you the following. In your solution to a case with 1 sister, 1 mother why did you not use 1/6 for the mother which is specified in 411 as her share if the deceased has siblings?(father's share in a case with siblings is not specified. this is food for thought)
Onur -
Hi Onur,
I have it thus for parents and siblings...
411
...and to his PARENTS, to each one from them the 1/6 from what he left, if for him was a child,
?so if (there) was not for him a child, and his parents inherited him, so to his mother the 1/3,
?so if brothers/brethren were for him, so to his mother the 1/6,IF both parents alive, mother?s share is fixed at 1/3
1 ? 1/3 mother = 2/3 fatherIF brothers/brethren ikhwatun mother?s share fixed at 1/6
IF no father or brothers/brethren ikhwatun, mother?s share is variable.
412
IF childless/spouseless kalalatan
...and if (he) was/is a man to be inherited kalalatan (without child) or a woman (wife), and for him (is) a brother, or a sister, so for each one from them the 1/6, so if they were more than that, so they are partners in the 1/3IF brother, mother, father
411?so if brothers/brethren were for him, so to his mother the 1/6
412?and for him (is) a brother, or a sister, so for each one from them the 1/6
1 ? 1/6 brother ? 1/6 mother = 2/3 fatherIF 2+ brothers, mother, father
411?so if brothers/brethren were for him, so to his mother the 1/6
412?so if they were more than that, so they are partners in the 1/3
1 ? 1/3 brothers ? 1/6 mother = 1/2 fatherIF sister, mother, father
411?so if (there) was not for him a child, and his parents inherited him, so to his mother the 1/3,
412?and for him (is) a brother, or a sister, so for each one from them the 1/6
1 ? 1/6 sister ? 1/3 mother = ? fatherIF 2+ sisters, mother, father
411?so if (there) was not for him a child, and his parents inherited him, so to his mother the 1/3,
412?so if they were more than that, so they are partners in the 1/3
1 ? 1/3 sisters ? 1/3 mother = 1/2 fatherIF 2+ siblings mixed, mother, father
411?so if brothers/brethren were for him, so to his mother the 1/6
412?so if they were more than that, so they are partners in the 1/3
1 ? 1/3 siblings ? 1/6 mother = ? fatherIF fatherless/childless/spouseless alkalalati
4176
They ask your opinion/clarification , say "God decrees/decides in alkalalati, if (a) man/human died, not for him (without) a child, and for him (is) a sister, so for her half what he left, and he inherits her if (there) was not for her a child, and if they were two, so to them the two thirds from what he left, and if they were brothers/brethren men and women, so to the male equal/alike (the) share (of) the two females, God clarifies for you that you (not) be misguided, and God is with everything knowledgeable.IF 1+ brothers, mother
411?so if brothers/brethren were for him, so to his mother the 1/6
1 ? 1/6 mother = 5/6 brothersIF sister, mother
4176 ?and for him (is) a sister, so for her half what he left
1 ? ? sister = ? motherIF 2 sisters, mother
4176 ?and if they were two, so to them the two thirds from what he left
1 ? 2/3 sisters = 1/3 mother
1st sister 1/3
2nd sister 1/3IF 2+ siblings mixed, mother
411?so if brothers/brethren were for him, so to his mother the 1/6
4176?and if they were brothers/brethren (siblings) men and women, so to the male equal/alike (the) share (of) the two females
1 ? 1/6 mother = 5/6 siblings -
Hi Nun, this looks plausible to me. In your view, what 4176 does is that it expands the definition of kalalatan to include "fatherless" and thus increase the share of the siblings. This makes sense. I will however try to investigate the issue further to see if there are any flaws. Thanks
Onur -
Hello Nun,
I think you are right that in a case when the deceased is a kalalatan(spouseless and childless) we should use 412 for the share of the siblings if the kalalatan has a father. If we had used 4176 for the share of siblings when there is a father we would be unable to solve a case with many mixed siblings and a father for we would have an equation with two unknowns(father's share when there are siblings is not specified and 4176 does not fix the share of siblings which would leave us with two unknowns) Therefore, in that case siblings should share the 1/3 and the father gets the remainder 2/3.
As a general rule, to find the share of the siblings of the kalalatan we should use 412 if there is a father and 4176 if there is no father. That is the critera to distinguish 412 and 4176 for the share of siblings. We need a general rule for logic and consistency.
I also think that when a kalalatan dies and leaves siblings together with a mother we should always use the share 1/6 for the mother because 411 gives a fixed share of 1/6 for the mother of a deceased kalalatan with siblings. For example, I do not agree with your solution for 1 mother, 1 sister. In that case, the mother should get 1/6 and the sister should get 1/2(consistent with the general rule, we use 4176 for the share of the sister who has no father)
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Hello Onur,
I also think that when a kalalatan dies and leaves siblings together with a mother we should always use the share 1/6 for the mother because 411 gives a fixed share of 1/6 for the mother of a deceased kalalatan with siblings. For example, I do not agree with your solution for 1 mother, 1 sister. In that case, the mother should get 1/6 and the sister should get 1/2(consistent with the general rule, we use 4176 for the share of the sister who has no father)
Good that we have a consensus.
Now as to the case with mother and sister...
411
...and to his PARENTS, to each one from them the 1/6 from what he left, if for him was a child,
?so if (there) was not for him a child, and his parents inherited him, so to his mother the 1/3,
?so if brothers/brethren were for him, so to his mother the 1/6,IF child = false
IF both parents alive = false
IF brothers/brethren = falseTherefore, the mother's share is not specified and dependent on sister...
4176
They ask your opinion/clarification , say "God decrees/decides in alkalalati, if (a) man/human died, not for him (without) a child, and for him (is) a sister, so for her half1 - 1/2 sister = 1/2 mother
In addition, if mother's share was 1/6 then there would also be 1/3 excess.
1 - 1/2 sister - 1/6 mother = 1/3
Peace
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Hello again,
I took "mother's share is 1/6 if there are siblings" to mean that if the deceased has sibling(s) then mother's share is 1/6. One sibling or many siblings(I think that the word used in the verse includes both male and female siblings)... The same with "if the deceased has children.... wife's/husband's/parents' is X " meaning if the deceased has any child(ren), one or many..... Apparently you take mother's share 1/6 when there are many siblings and not just one. If someone asks me " Do you have siblings?" I could answer, " Yes, I have a brother/sister" There is no need to take the expression mean only plural- that would be too strictly literal.
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Hi -
The word used ikhwatun is plural
If someone asks do you have siblings, the proper answer is ? No, I have a sibling.
The definition is precisely stated and defined within the text...
4176?and if they were brothers/brethren (siblings) men and women
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Unfortunately, throughout all this discussion on inheritance and especially on the share of siblings of kalalatin, I have the impression that we do more arbitrary guesswork to save the Quran from inconsistencies than well grounded logical reasoning. I hope that this issue of inheritance will not lead me to unbelief.
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Unfortunately, throughout all this discussion on inheritance and especially on the share of siblings of kalalatin, I have the impression that we do more arbitrary guesswork to save the Quran from inconsistencies than well grounded logical reasoning. I hope that this issue of inheritance will not lead me to unbelief.
If you look for inconsistencies you'll "reason" to unbelief and find them everywhere...
Look at all the ayat (verses, proofs, evidences, signs, etc.)
Look at the meticulous structure of Quran ? straight forward math.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=16442.msg175363#msg175363
Surah... #Verses... S+V... 57 Even... 57 Odd
1............7...............8............8.............
2..........286..........288..........288..........
3..........200..........203.....................20 3
....
110..........3..........113.....................11 3
111..........5..........116..........116..........
112..........4..........116..........116..........
113..........5..........118..........118..........
114..........6..........120..........120..........6555.......6236....12791........6236......6555
6236 6555 12791 = 19 x 328245026989
Look at the world around you and billions astonishing species each a work of art.
Peace
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As you must have realized by now, I do not intentionally look for inconsistencies. My only intention is to have clear, consistent and rational answers to problems. I sincerely wish to have a rational faith compatible with science, math, common sense, human rights and justice etc. I have the suspicion though that some parts of the verses on inheritance are not original to Quran and may have been added later. Maybe future researchers can hopefully clarify this.
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I have the suspicion though that some parts of the verses on inheritance are not original to Quran and may have been added later. Maybe future researchers can hopefully clarify this.
159 That We, We descended the reminder/remembrance, and that We (are) for it, protectors/guards.
Nothing to clarify that would be a contradiction same as this sentence...
If someone asks me " Do you have siblings?" I could answer, " Yes, I have a brother/sister"