Acceptable to attack innocent polytheists? / What is fitnah??
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2193 (hilal/khan)
And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with All?h) and (all and every other kind of) worship is for All?h (Alone). But if they cease let there be no transgression except against Az-Z?lim?n (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)
2193 Waqatiloohum hatta latakoona fitnatun wayakoona alddeenu lillahi fa-iniintahaw fala AAudwana illa AAala alththalimeena
It doesn't seem that the word 'zalimun' is mentioned anywhere in the transliteration , yet it is being emphasized in some translations(why?), but what is the meaning of 'zalimun'? Polytheists ?
Hilal had stated that fitnah means a disbelief in allah, but in most translations it means oppression , so which one is the right meaning ?
What does the word 'fitnah' means ? Could Anyone with good arabic knowledge help to explain it to me ?I'm having debate with an atheist on youtube and i would greatly appreciate the comments.
Peace -
Peace,
Fitna is bolded571 And they did not consider it might be a test, so they were blind and deaf. But God would have accepted the repentance from them; but many of them were still blind and deaf. God is watcher over what they do.
825 And be aware of a test that will not only afflict those of you who were wicked; and know that God is severe in retribution.
828 And know that your money and your children are a test, and that God has the greatest reward.
839 And fight them all until there is no more oppression, and so that the entire system is God?s. But if they cease, then God is watcher over what they do.
1085 They said ?In God we put our trust. Our Lord, do not make us a test for the wicked people.?
1760 And when We said to you ?Your Lord has encompassed the people.? And We did not make the vision that We showed you except as a test for the people, and tree that was cursed in the Qur?an. And We are making them fearful, but it only increases their transgression.
2135 Every soul will taste death. And We burden you with evil and good as a test, and it is to Us that you will return.
21111 ?And for all I know, it may be a test for you and an enjoyment for a while.?
2211 And from the people there is he who serves God nervously. So if good comes to him, he is content with it; and if an ordeal comes to him, he makes an about-face. He has lost this world and the Hereafter. Such is the clear loss.
So fitna does not mean "disbelief in allah" but more like trial/test/oppression.
Note the bolded
2192 And if they cease, then God is Forgiving, Merciful.
2193 And fight them so there is no more persecution, and so that the system is God?s. If they cease, then there will be no aggression except against the wicked. -
Peace,
With all due Respect,I can't remember which verse is it but it says in The Quran that we are only allowed to say to them"Accept Islam." And that's it. That's the last line but obviously those in Afghanistan simply can't see this due to their blindness.
I also spoke to one woman online and when i asked her a few questions regarding prophet Jesus, she said she had to log out. I won.
Peace.
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What about az-zalimun ? Why do some sources state 'against zalimun' instead of the wicked.
Zalimun means wicked.
See bolded235 And We said ?O Adam, reside you and your mate in the paradise, and eat from it bountifully as you both wish, and do not approach this tree, else you will be of those who did wrong.?
2124 And Abraham was tested by commands from His Lord, which he completed. He said ?I will make you a leader for the people.? He said ?And also from my progeny?? He said ?My pledge will not encompass the wicked.?
2193 And fight them so there is no more persecution, and so that the system is God?s. If they cease, then there will be no aggression except against the wicked.
528 ?If you stretch your hand to kill me, I will not stretch my hand to kill you, for I fear God, the Lord of the worlds.?
529 ?I want you to have both my sin as well as your own sin, and you will then be among the dwellers of the Fire. Such is the reward of the wicked.?652 And do not turn away those who call on their Lord at dawn and dusk seeking His presence; you are not responsible for their judgment, nor are they responsible for your judgment; if you turn them away, then you will be of the wicked.
Obviously it can include the Polytheists (as they are wrongdoers in the fact that they worship many Gods) but does not mean Polytheist.
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Zalimun means wicked.
See bolded
Obviously it can include the Polytheists (as they are wrongdoers in the fact that they worship many Gods) but does not mean Polytheist.How can worshiping many gods mean that you're a person who commit evil deeds(wrongdoers) ?
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How can worshiping many gods mean that you're a person who commit evil deeds(wrongdoers) ?
Peace
The reason is because there is only 1 God. So they are worshiping falsehood. That does not mean we have to make war against all the Polytheists or oppress them, it just means in the hereafter they have to answer before God as to why they chose to ascribe partners. -
Peace
The reason is because there is only 1 God. So they are worshiping falsehood. That does not mean we have to make war against all the Polytheists or oppress them, it just means in the hereafter they have to answer before God as to why they chose to ascribe partners.But if the 'polytheists' cease let there be no transgression except against the polytheists
If you were to translate az-zalimun as polytheist in this case, that wouldn't really make sense so i believed az-zalimun only means wrongdoers which could be anybody including the hypocritical muslims themselves,right ?
wrongdoing an action that fails to conform to standards of law or morality
The polytheists doesn't have to be wrongdoers if they followed the universal morality, i would categorize the goods ones as 'false-believers' rather than wrongdoers. -
But if the 'polytheists' cease let there be no transgression except against the polytheists
If you were to translate az-zalimun as polytheist in this case, that wouldn't really make sense so i believed az-zalimun only means wrongdoers which could be anybody including the hypocritical muslims themselves,right ?
wrongdoing an action that fails to conform to standards of law or morality
The polytheists doesn't have to be wrongdoers if they followed the universal morality, i would categorize the goods ones as 'false-believers' rather than wrongdoers.Yes I agree its obvious that Az-Zalimun does not refer to Polytheists in this situation but to people who are causing trouble to the believers. If you read the chapter as a whole you get a clearer picture who its talking about
2190 And fight in the cause of God against those who fight you, but do not transgress, God does not like the aggressors.
2191 And kill them wherever you find them, and expel them from where they expelled you, and know that persecution is worse than being killed. And do not fight them at the Sacred Temple unless they fight you in it; if they fight you then kill them, thus is the reward of the disbelievers.
2192 And if they cease, then God is Forgiving, Merciful.
2193 And fight them so there is no more persecution, and so that the system is God?s. If they cease, then there will be no aggression except against the wicked. -
Peace all
The "Zalemoon" Arabic root word is Zalm.
Zalem is the opposite of Fair (Just), thus, it means Unjust or Unfair.
What constitute Just and Unjust is the Law, and therefore, any thing against the Law is Unjust.
The Zalemoon are the people who are acting in a way that transgress God?s Law that are written in the Books.The Fetna Root Word is ?Faatean?, which means something that is Beautiful that makes people attract to it (like it). Thus, Fetna is something that attracts people.
The Word Fetna can be used in a Good way or in a Bad way. For example, I?m Maftoon by The Quran (I?m attracted to Quran). Or, I?m Maftoon (attracted) to something that would make me disobey God (a Women, Wealth, Children), either Intentionally or Unintentionally (not knowing, deceived).
Thus, the people in the Verse were deceiving others intentionally away from God?s book (one meaning), or were deceiving others to fight and Kill God?s Messenger (making people attracted to fight the Prophet)And God Knows Better.
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What about mujrimoon ? I found out that it means 'criminal', if so then what is the difference between zalimun and mujrimun ? zalimun = evil-doers , mujrimoon = criminals (therefore evil-doers too?)
I'm sorry for the trouble, but is there a good website that allows me to search for the meaning of an arabic word using its phonetical form such as 'zalimun, fitna etc'.
Peace
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What about mujrimoon ? I found out that it means 'criminal', if so then what is the difference between zalimun and mujrimun ? zalimun = evil-doers , mujrimoon = criminals (therefore evil-doers too?)
Peace,
God calls the Zalimun "Kafron", "Fasikoon", "Moujrimoon", "Moshrikoon" and many other names; the same with Momenoon (belivers), God calls them Mohtadoon, Salehoon.I'm sorry, I do not know any websit that I can refer you to, but please feel free to ask in Free Mind, there are many knowledgable people in Arabic.
Peace
Peace
Peace -
Peace,
Many of the verses in chapter 9 are very confusing to me.
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Peace,
Many of the verses in chapter 9 are very confusing to me.
That is so interesting to me, I've never been confused by the Qur'an at all. According to the Qur'an, your confusion is ultimately coming from God and God's responsibility.
www.islamawakened.com/quran has multiple translations for each verse and other things if that helps.
Here is something I posted earlier elsewhere on the subject to someone claiming Islam was promoting killing
"This is kind of pointless for me to do, but it is just so that other people might have more information on the topic. Once again, I do not find it an effective technique to try to convince Muslims to kill everyone by these verses, but instead to urge them not to kill by using what they already believe in. I find it counter-productive to try to make them absolutely convinced they are supposed to kill us, that is really not a good idea to promote to them I think. I know your intentions are different, your intentions are to convince other people that it is so violent that they must stay away from it, but instead what it might be used for is convincing Muslims, of which there are billions, to go about killing, and to do so is really a bad strategy. The correct strategy in my view is to use what they already accept and believe in to make moderate their actions.
2189-
THEY WILL ASK thee about the new moons. Say "They indicate the periods for mankind, including the pilgrimage." However, piety does not consist in your entering houses from the rear, but truly pious is he who is conscious of God. Hence, enter houses through their doors, and remain conscious of God, so that you might attain to a happy state.Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors.
And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.
But if they desist-behold, God is much-forgiving, a dispenser of grace.
Hence, fight against them until there is no more oppression and all worship is devoted to God alone; but if they desist, then all hostility shall cease, save against those who do wrong.
Fight during the sacred months if you are attacked for a violation of sanctity is just retribution. Thus, if anyone commits aggression against you, attack him just as he has attacked you - but remain conscious of God, and know that God is with those who are conscious of Him.
And spend in God's cause, and let not your own hands throw you into destruction; and persevere in doing good behold, God loves the doers of good.
(the word that seems to be used is "fitna"
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fitna_(word)
2241-
And the divorced women, too, shall have maintenance in a goodly manner this is a duty for all who are conscious of God.In this way God makes clear unto you His messages, so that you might use your reason.
ART THOU NOT aware of those who forsook their homelands in their thousands for fear of death-whereupon God said unto them, "Die," and later brought them back to life? Behold, God is indeed limitless in His bounty unto man -but most people are ungrateful.
Fight, then, in God's cause, and know that God is all-hearing, all-knowing.
Who is it that will offer up unto God a goodly loan, which He will amply repay, with manifold increase? For, God takes away, and He gives abundantly; and it is unto Him that you shall be brought back.
Art thou not aware of those elders of the children of Israel, after the time of Moses, how they said unto a prophet of theirs, "Raise up a king for us, we shall fight in God's cause"? Said he "Would you, perchance, refrain from fighting if fighting is ordained for you?" They answered "And why should we not fight in God's cause when we and our children have been driven from our homelands?" Yet, when fighting was ordained for them, they did turn back, save for a few of them; but God had full knowledge of the evildoers.
And their prophet said unto those elders "Behold, now God has raised up Saul to be your king." They said "How can he have dominion over us when we have a better claim to dominion than he, and he has not been endowed with abundant wealth?" replied "Behold, God has exalted him above you, and endowed him abundantly with knowledge and bodily perfection. And God bestows His dominion upon whom He wills for God is infinite, all-knowing."
And their prophet said unto them "Behold, it shall be a sign of his dominion that you will be granted a heart endowed by your Sustainer with inner peace and with all that is enduring in the angel-borne heritage left behind by the House of Moses and the House of Aaron. Herein, behold, there shall indeed be a sign for you if you are believers."
And when Saul set out with his forces, he said "Behold, God will now try you by a river he who shall drink of it will not belong to me, whereas he who shall refrain from tasting it - he, indeed, will belong to me; but forgiven shall be he who shall scoop up but a single handful." However, save for a few of them, they all drank of it. And as soon as he and those who had kept faith with him had crossed the river, the others said "No strength have we today against Goliath and his forces!" those who knew with certainty that they were destined to meet God, replied "How often has a small host overcome a great host by God's leave! For God is with those who are patient in adversity."
And when they came face to face with Goliath and his forces, they prayed "O our Sustainer! Shower us with patience in adversity, and make firm our steps, and succour us against the people who deny the truth!"
And thereupon, by God's leave, they routed them. And David slew Goliath; and God bestowed upon him dominion, and wisdom, and imparted to him the knowledge of whatever He willed. And if God had not enabled people to defend themselves against one another, corruption would surely overwhelm the earth but God is limitless in His bounty unto all the worlds.
THESE are God's messages We convey them unto thee, setting forth the truth-for, verily, thou art among those who have been entrusted with a message.
Some of these apostles have We endowed more highly than others among them were such as were spoken to by God , and some He has raised yet higher.' And We vouchsafed unto Jesus, the son of Mary, all evidence of the truth, and strengthened him with holy inspiration. And if God had so willed, they who succeeded those would not have contended with one another after all evidence of the truth had come to them; but they did take to divergent views, and some of them attained to faith, while some of them came to deny the truth. Yet if God had so willed, they would not have contended with one another but God does whatever He wills.
What exactly is there to be afraid of? The Qur'an is an easy book to use to control Muslim behavior, which is its use and intention.
2215-
THEY WILL ASK thee as to what they should spend on others. Say "Whatever of your wealth you spend shall be for your parents, and for the near of kin, and the orphans, and the needy, and the wayfarer; and whatever good you do, verily, God has full knowledge thereof."FIGHTING is ordained for you, even though it be hateful to you; but it may well be that you hate a thing the while it is good for you, and it may well be that you love a thing the while it is bad for you and God knows, whereas you do not know.
They question thee (O Muhammad) with regard to warfare in the sacred month. Say Warfare therein is a great (transgression), but to turn (men) from the way of Allah, and to disbelieve in Him and in the Inviolable Place of Worship, and to expel His people thence, is a greater with Allah; for persecution is worse than killing. And they will not cease from fighting against you till they have made you renegades from your religion, if they can. And whoso becometh a renegade and dieth in his disbelief such are they whose works have fallen both in the world and the Hereafter. Such are rightful owners of the Fire they will abide therein.
Lo! those who believe, and those who emigrate (to escape the persecution) and strive in the way of Allah, these have hope of Allah's mercy. Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
They question thee about intoxicants and games of chance. Say In both is great harm, and (some) utility for men; but the harm of them is greater than their usefulness. And they ask thee what they ought to spend. Say that which is superfluous. Thus Allah maketh plain to you (His) revelations, that haply ye may reflect.
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When Allah said "O Jesus! Indeed, I (will) take you and raise you to Myself and purify you from those who disbelieve, and I will make those who follow you superior (to) those who disbelieve on (the) Day (of) Resurrection. Then to Me (is) your return and I will judge between you about what you were differing."And as for those who are bent on denying the truth, I shall cause them to suffer a suffering severe in this world and in the life to come, and they shall have none to succour them;
And as for those who believe and do good works, He will pay them their wages in full. Allah loveth not wrong-doers.
THIS MESSAGE do We convey unto thee, and this tiding full of wisdom
Verily, in the sight of God, the nature of Jesus is as the nature of Adam, whom He created out of dust and then said unto him, "Be" - and he is.
the truth from thy Sustainer; be not, then, among those who waiver.
Why are you afraid when God says he will punish those who do evil and create mischief? Do you consider yourself a disbeliever in God who does evil? If not, you have nothing to fear but God. It isn't much different from
Luke 125
But I will show you whom you should fear Fear him who, after your body has been killed, has authority to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him.Matthew 1028
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.Hebrews 1031
It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
3134-
And vie with one another to attain to your Sustainer's forgiveness and to a paradise as vast as the heavens and the earth, which has been readied for the God-consciouswho spend in time of plenty and in time of hardship, and hold in check their anger, and pardon their fellow-men because God loves the doers of good;
and who, when they have committed a shameful deed or have sinned against themselves, remember God and pray that their sins be forgiven - for who but God could forgive sins? - and do not knowingly persist in doing whatever they may have done.
These it is who shall have as their reward forgiveness from their Sustainer, and gardens through which running waters flow, therein to abide and how excellent a reward for those who labour!
WAYS of life have passed away before your time. Go, then, about the earth and behold what happened in the end to those who gave the lie to the truth
this a clear lesson unto all men, and a guidance and an admonition unto the God-conscious.
Be not, then, faint of heart, and grieve not for you are bound to rise high if you are believers.
If misfortune touches you, similar misfortune has touched people as well; for it is by turns that We apportion unto men such days and to the end that God might mark out those who have attained to faith, and choose from among you such as bear witness to the truth - since God does not love evildoers -
and that God might render pure of all dross those who have attained to faith, and bring to nought those who deny the truth.
Do you think that you could enter paradise unless God takes cognizance of your having striven hard , and takes cognizance of your having been patient in adversity?
For, indeed, you did long for death before you came face to face with it; and now you have seen it with your own eyes!
AND MUHAMMAD is only an apostle; all the apostles have passed away before him if, then, he dies or is slain, will you turn about on your heels? But he that turns about on his heels can in no wise harm God - whereas God will requite all who are grateful .
And no human being can die save by God's leave, at a term pre-ordained. And if one desires the rewards of this world, We shall grant him thereof; and if one desires the rewards of the life to come, We shall grant him thereof; and We shall requite those who are grateful .
And how many a prophet has had to fight , followed by many God-devoted men and they did not become faint of heart for all that they had to suffer in God's cause, and neither did they weaken, nor did they abase themselves , since God loves those who are patient in adversity;
and all that they said was this "O our Sustainer! Forgive us our sins and the lack of moderation in our doings! And make firm our steps, and succour us against people who deny the truth!" -
whereupon God granted them the rewards of this world, as well as the goodliest rewards of the life to come for God loves the doers of good.
O YOU who have attained to faith! If you pay heed to those who are bent on denying the truth, they will cause you to turn back on your heels, and you will be the losers.
Nay, but God alone is your Lord Supreme, and His is the best succour.
Into the hearts of those who are bent on denying the truth We shall cast dread in return for their ascribing divinity, side by side with God, to other beings - for which He has never bestowed any warrant from on high; and their goal is the fire - and how evil that abode of evildoers!
(is this what is happening to you? is this what is happening to the people who fear this stuff? I don't know, I'm just wondering, because I feel no dread concerning these things but I also don't ascribe divinity side by side with God to anything other than God alone)
God verily made good His promise unto you when ye routed them by His leave, until (the moment) when your courage failed you, and ye disagreed about the order and ye disobeyed, after He had shown you that for which ye long. Some of you desired the world, and some of you desired the Hereafter. Therefore He made you flee from them, that He might try you. Yet now He hath forgiven you. God is a Lord of Kindness to believers.
when you fled, paying no heed to anyone, while at your rear the Apostle was calling out to you - wherefore He requited you with woe in return for woe, so that you should not grieve over what had escaped you, nor over what had befallen you for God is aware of all that you do.
Then, after this woe, He sent down upon you a sense of security, an inner calm which enfolded some of you, whereas the others, who cared mainly for themselves, entertained wrong thoughts about God - thoughts of pagan ignorance - saying, "Did we, then, have any power of decision ?" Say "Verily, all power of decision does rest with God" - they are trying to conceal within themselves that which they would not reveal unto thee, saying, "If we had any power of decision, we would not have left so many dead behind." Say "Even if you had remained in your homes, those whose death had been ordained would indeed have gone forth to the places where they were destined to lie down." And so that God might put to a test all that you harbour in your bosoms, and render your innermost hearts pure of all dross for God is aware of what is in the hearts .
(As for) those of you who turned back on the day when the two armies met, only the Shaitan sought to cause them to make a slip on account of some deeds they had done, and certainly God has pardoned them; surely God is Forgiving, Forbearing.
O you who have attained to faith! Be not like those who are bent on denying the truth and say of their brethren after having set out on a journey to faraway places or gone forth to war, "Had they but remained with us, they would not have died," or, "they would not have been slain" - for God will cause such thoughts to become a source of bitter regret in their hearts, since it is God who grants life and deals death. And God sees all that you do.
And if indeed you are slain or die in God's cause, then surely forgiveness from God and His grace are better than all that one could amass
for, indeed, if you die or are slain, it will surely be unto God that you shall be gathered.
And it was by God's grace that thou didst deal gently with thy followers for if thou hadst been harsh and hard of heart, they would indeed have broken away from thee. Pardon them, then, and pray that they be forgiven. And take counsel with them in all matters of public concern; then, when thou hast decided upon a course of action, place thy trust in God for, verily, God loves those who place their trust in Him.If God assists you, then there is none that can overcome you, and if He forsakes you, who is there then that can assist you after Him? And on God should the believers rely.
And it is not attributable to a prophet that he should act unfaithfully; and he who acts unfaithfully shall bring that in respect of which he has acted unfaithfully on the day of resurrection; then shall every soul be paid back fully what it has earned, and they shall not be dealt with unjustly.
Is then he who strives after God's goodly acceptance like unto him who has earned the burden of God's condemnation and whose goal is hell? - and how vile a journey's end!
They are on different levels in the sight of God; for God sees all that they do.
Indeed, God bestowed a favour upon the believers when he raised up in their midst an apostle from among themselves, to convey His messages unto them, and to cause them to grow in purity, and to impart unto them the divine writ as well as wisdom - whereas before that they were indeed, most obviously, lost in error.
What! when a misfortune befell you, and you had certainly afflicted (the unbelievers) with twice as much, you began to say Whence is this? Say It is from yourselves; surely God has power over all things.
That which befell you, on the day when the two armies met, was by permission of God; that He might make distinct the true believers;
and mark out those who were tainted with hypocrisy and, when they were told, "Come, fight in God's cause" - or, "Defend yourselves" - answered, "If we but knew fight, we would indeed follow you." Unto apostasy were they nearer on that day than unto faith, uttering with their mouths something which was not in their hearts, the while God knew fully well what they were trying to conceal
they who, having themselves held back said of their brethren, "Had they but paid heed to us, they would not have been slain." Say "Avert, then, death from yourselves, if what you say is true!"
Think not of those who are slain in Allah's way as dead. Nay, they live, finding their sustenance in the presence of their Lord;
glad for what God gave them of His grace. And rejoice at the good tidings for those who have not yet joined them from behind them. There will be neither fear in them, nor will they feel remorse.
They rejoice at the good tidings of the divine blessing from God and His grace and that God will not waste the compensation of the ones who believe,
those who responded to God and the Messenger after wounds lit on them. For those of them who did good among them and were Godfearing, there is a sublime compensation.
Those to whom humanity said Truly, humanity has gathered against you, so dread them, but it increased them in belief and they said God is enough for us. And how excellent is He, The Trustee.
- and returned with God's blessings and bounty, without having been touched by evil for they had been striving after God's goodly acceptance - and God is limitless in His great bounty.
It is only Satan who frightens you with his protectors. So fear them not, but fear Me if you had been ones who believe.
And be not grieved by those who vie with one another in denying the truth verily, they can in no wise harm God. It is God's will that they shall have no share in the life to come; and tremendous suffering awaits them.
Verily, they who have bought a denial of the truth at the price of faith can in no wise harm God, whereas grievous suffering awaits them.
And they should not think - they who are bent on denying the truth - that Our giving them rein is good for them We give them rein only to let them grow in sinfulness; and shameful suffering awaits them.
It is not God's will to abandon the believers to your way of life to that end He will set apart the bad from the good. And it is not God's will to give you insight into that which is beyond the reach of human perception but God elects whomsoever He wills from among His apostles. Believe, then, in God and His apostles; for if you believe and are conscious of Him, a magnificent requital awaits you.
And let not those who hoard up that which God hath bestowed upon them of His bounty think that it is better for them. Nay, it is worse for them. That which they hoard will be their collar on the Day of Resurrection. God's is the heritage of the heavens and the earth, and God is Informed of what ye do.
Allah has certainly heard the saying of those who said Surely Allah is poor and we are rich. I will record what they say, and their killing the prophets unjustly, and I will say Taste the chastisement of burning.
This is on account of that which your own hands have sent before (you to the judgment). Allah is no oppressor of (His) bondmen.
As for those who maintain, "Behold, God has bidden us not to believe in any apostle unless he comes unto us with burnt offerings" - say "Even before me there came unto you apostles with all evidence of the truth, and with that whereof you speak why, then, did you slay them, if what you say is true?"
And if they give thee the lie - even so, before thy time, have apostles been given the lie when they came with all evidence of the truth, and with books of divine wisdom, and with light-giving revelation.
Every human being is bound to taste death but only on the Day of Resurrection will you be requited in full - whereupon he that shall be drawn away from the fire and brought into paradise will indeed have gained a triumph for the life of this world is nothing but an enjoyment of self-delusion.
You shall most certainly be tried in your possessions and in your persons; and indeed you shall hear many hurtful things from those to whom revelation was granted before your time, as well as from those who have come to ascribe divinity to other beings beside God. But if you remain patient in adversity and conscious of Him - this, behold, is something to set one's heart upon.
http//www.islamawakened.com/quran has multiple translations for each verse of the Qur'an plus some other nifty things, so what I do is I go look up the verse you mention and go a little behind it and then also after it to give it its proper positioning and also to see what else it says.
Personally, I find nothing objectionable in what has been shown so far, nor do I deem it as threatening me in the least bit. I'm one who believes in God alone as the sole power, who is like nothing at all, and I do not ascribe false things to God or partners with God in God's power and authority. So none of the things the Qur'an is saying threaten me in the least bit. For someone like me, who is a strict monotheist who believes in the unseen, it repeatedly affirms me and promises me great rewards, so why should I be insulted by a book that is complimenting me and also speaking out against the same people who say false things that I too try to correct?
What I find so fascinating is how people are so afraid of the Qur'an and Islam and reject it so violently, as if they want to be identified with the disbelievers of God and consider themselves disbelievers who ascribe partners to God? Why do they take that position? Why does the book feel like a book of compliments to me, while to them it seems like insults? I find that so strange and interesting, that it bolsters and affirms me, yet they take offense? Does it mean they really are those who ascribe divinity to other than God alone, are they really those people it is talking against?"
"Really? I'm pretty sure I provided lots of context by giving the verses around a few examples, did you read those or you just don't feel like it? That is alright, you have no need to read it, because your mission is clear. The Muslims are bad people and the religion of Islam is evil, period. That is your message, and that is what you are trying to say, yes?
I told you first that it is not a useful or effective strategy. You disregard that because you are set on this mission, even though the strategy is not going to accomplish much in my opinion, except make haters more hateful, and possibly convince Muslims to kill, congratulations, what kind of an accomplishment is that?
I showed those verses clearly, it does not say to attack people or begin hostilities, I don't appreciate being mocked if that is what you were trying to do by saying I might not have comprehended.
You made the claim that people were "violently expelled", and I was trying to tell you that according to these "histories" that you seem to enjoy, that was not the case when Muhammed's army took over Mecca. I gave specific parameters for what I am saying.
So are you here to spread hate? Of course, but I urge you then to please spread hate with more purity, that is, be flat out hateful. I approve of that more.
Say what you feel. You despise the Muslims because they are ugly, brutish, dirty, dark skinned, vile, savages (as the television depicts today as well or "confirms", they are the worst people in existence, they rape babies day and night, their religion commands them to rape babies every moment of their existence, etc etc. Go for it! Why should you be shy? I'm asking you to be pure in your hatred and go all out.
Meanwhile, my strategy is different. Instead of convincing people to hate other people, and instead of convincing Muslims that they deserve to be hated and that their books that they believe in command them to kill us all, I will use the words they choose to believe in to try to convince them otherwise.
My strategy, in my view, is far more effective and intelligent than yours when played out. I know your ultimate dream is the eradication of Islam and possibly the eradication of all the Muslims too or at least their abandonment of Islam if not utterly killing them all, but since that reality is not very realistic, I deal with actual sensible strategies.
So what will actually happen with your efforts, is that if they succeed at anything, they will succeed in making people more hateful in their feeling, and usually that follows with hateful behavior, and that follows with the Muslims feeling more alienated, and though you want the Muslims to throw out their books, they may actually take what you are saying as true and say "Hm, yes, he has a point, we should kill them". Good job. You have just urged people on to murder by convincing them their books tell them to do it and even urged their enemies to become more hateful seeming. Do you understand?
Now look at my strategy? Show them verses which moderate the behavior, make it defensive and show them how it says not to begin hostilities etc, and manipulate them by the linguistic framework they already believe in, rather than trying to strip it off of them and offering them something entirely new or alien to them.
Do you really think your strategy is as effective as mine in this reality? Do you really think you will end the Muslims?"
"Yeah, it sounds bad right, sounds like a problem (I'm responding to both simultaneously), but it is actually what all communication is. All communication, even the most "innocent" seeming, is a form of mind control and mental manipulation.
If say to you, even a single word, "dog" you will think of a dog in some form to understand the word I'm using, I am attempting to control your mind and control the simulations you make in your mind. If I say the lizard walked on the road, you will imagine some form of that in order to understand what I'm saying, and I have successfully had an effect on you, I have produced something which (though not as precisely as one might like) has controlled your mind to produce a simulation.
So "ohhh no its manipulation, its coercion" is the talk of people who have silly emotional responses to words they have been brainwashed to think are bad, while all the while they work tirelessly to brainwash each other with their own beliefs. Why? Because it comforts them to produce more people who think like themselves probably.
Now, your "truth" is not verifiable in any scientific way or way that can be witnessed, nor is it necessarily "true" by any academic standards, when it comes to how someone intended something, what someone long dead actually did based on things written centuries later, and whatever other rubbish one might try to coerce or manipulate others to believe.
So knowing now that all communication is such, why would we not use communication to urge people to do what is good rather than convince them that they should do what is bad?
Certain people choose a certain "linguistic framework" to abide by, this means a common collection of words and a framework that they approve, for any number of reasons. Your linguistic frameworks are "Christian" themed. Their linguistic frameworks are "Muslim themed". Atheists have their own preferential linguistic frameworks, where certain terms mean certain things to them or they are sensitive about certain things. Using whatever "language" a person prefers, one should urge them to do good, not to convince them to do evil or insist that they must do evil because what they believe to be God told them to.
Firstly, you deny the "facts" regarding those verses, and continue to insist that Islam is supposed to be a killing machine. How are you helping? You're an accomplice then to all the terrorists yourself by urging them on. Those are just words in a book, and words in a book that people believe are tools that should be used to encourage them towards good and moderating their behavior. I have used the book effectively for that, and I have shown the verses to moderate their actions so that they are not aggressors nor begin hostilities and there are many more moderating verses. I am using the book effectively to encourage good out of the people who prefer it. I use the Bible in the same way.
All communication is mind control,
That is what you are doing,
that is what I am doing,
Whatever you say to me is an attempt to produce things in my mind, and produce a reaction or resulting simulation,
the same goes for me,
so knowing that,
Why should we not use language and the things that people prefer and believe in
To encourage them to produce good results rather than convince them that they should be producing bad results.
It is counter productive to urge them on and convince them to kill and harm, and what you are doing is not only "dishonest" because it really doesn't even urge them on to just go on a killing spree as I showed, but you are working to convince people that it does, and even if it does, you are not doing anything good by trying to make it appear that way and working against my attempts at trying to moderate their beliefs and encourage better behavior even by what they believe in (which is more effective than giving them some Communist Materialist pamphlet that is alien to them and convincing them of that instead since they don't already believe in it so it would be much harder work)."
"You may not be racist, but a whole lot of people are racist. Sorry if "make it" was misunderstood there. Its a sentence in a book of words, and to me it actually clearly is defensive in nature, you don't believe that it is, I am saying that it should be made that way to those who don't believe that it is, but to me it is clearly defensive when it says "begin not hostilities" "be not aggressors" "Allah does not love aggressors" it appears clear as day, but of course since you can not see that nor do you believe that, I am saying it is more effective to interpret it that way and more in our cause of peace and moderating beliefs, and does not thus urge people to go on killing sprees, meanwhile you appear to be trying your best to "expose" what you believe is the "truth" and convince Muslims that the book they take as the Words of God are asking them to go on a killing spree, when it isn't, but you insist it is, and wish to convince them of it too, which is an extremely bad thing to do and potentially harmful leading to harmful results."