Who are the people of the book?

[jonny_k]

Peace "farida",

That means that from among all the people of the book closest to us are the Sunni and the Shia and therefore we shoud deal with them in the best of manner?
peace

JK- You only deal with those people of the Book in the best manner who dont fight you because of your beliefs. As for those who attack you, as sunnis/shias are continuously threatening us, wer to do this
You may kill those who wage war against you, and you may evict them whence they evicted you. Oppression is worse than murder. Do not fight them at the Sacred Masjid, unless they attack you therein. If they attack you, you may kill them. This is the just retribution for those disbelievers.
You may also fight them to eliminate oppression, and to worship GOD freely. If they refrain, you shall not aggress; aggression is permitted only against the aggressors.
Do not argue with the people of the scripture (Jews, Christians, and Muslims) except in the nicest possible manner - unless they transgress - and say, "We believe in what was revealed to us and in what was revealed to you, and our god and your god is one and the same; to Him we are submitters."
Have you noted those who are plagued with hypocrisy, and how they said to their companions in disbelief AMONG the people of the scripture, "If you are evicted we will go out with you, and will never obey anyone who opposes you. If anyone fights you, we will fight on your side." GOD bears witness that they are liars.

GOD Bless!

[farida]

Peace Farida, huruf, all

Verse 320 is a good example to understand who is the group referred to as "ahl al-kitab" in contrast with "al-oummiyne".

In Arabic, one of the meanings of "ahl" is "one who is qualified for a task/job", we hear this even nowadays in sport for qualifications.

So it seems from 320 and other verses that "ahl al-kitab" is defining a group of "learned people" or "people able/qualified to read/write" in contrast with the unlearned ones. There is a big gap between these two groups in terms of knowledge, hence the scripture gives specific commands to the learned ones because they tend to abuse the other group and have higher responsibilities and capacities to influence their environment.

I think that this term "ahl al-kitab" has no religious meaning in the scripture (like pointing to Jews or Christians...), but is simply a general definition for the learned/educated people.

---

Salaam Someone,
Your explanation makes sense, since those who have received scripture are mentioned in contrast to those who are illiterate.
The intellectuals and scholars shoulder a huge responsibility and can make a huge difference with their contributions. Take for example Freud; he studied human psychology and had a great understanding of how the human minds works. Among many theories, one was that if you repeat some thing again and again people will eventually come to believe it . This finding is put into practice in advertisements and commercials designed to make those on the receiving end get this subliminal message.
He could easily have warned people ?Guard yourself? your mind is susceptible to subliminal messages anyone repeats some things again and again it will end up corrupting your understanding of the truth so make sure you work on your mind to uphold the truth and not fall into this trap. Had he done this the world would have been a very different place today.
I always believed those who possess a better understanding will be questioned what they did with this gift to them and what was the end result of that contribution?
peace

[ayman]

Peace Farida,

Your explanation makes sense, since those who have received scripture are mentioned in contrast to those who are illiterate.

Yes, this explanation makes sense. However, I don't think that what is meant is illiterate in general. Just illiterate in the language of the book. This is confirmed by 278 which refer to some of the descendents of Israel

278. And from them are "ummiyin" who don't know the book except "amani" (amani = recitation without knowing the meaning) and they are but assuming.

Peace,

Ayman

[Someone]

Peace Ayman, all

To be more specific about "ahl al-kitab", I think it describes people who know some of the laws in action in this reality, not just someone who knows the alphabet and can write his name.

I think "bani israeil" is a sub-group of "ahl al-kitab", not the Jews necessarly. "bani" comes from "bana' " which means to build. "israeil" refers to someone knowing some of the laws of this reality (the laws of the god) but is trying to do too much and adding more rules to these laws for his own gain. They show too much righteousness in public, but in reality they scheme against the others. They don't take the straight road, but take curves, ups and downs, and make every argument to divert people from the main goal.

"israeil" comes from root "sara' " ( ), and means pour out or forth , pour forth , pour out , be poured(out or forth) , pour down , fulminate , gush , flow , leak , squirt, spread.

"bani israeil would then mean "people who create diversion".

Peace,

Mohamed

[belH]

Peace Ayman, all

To be more specific about "ahl al-kitab", I think it describes people who know some of the laws in action in this reality, not just someone who knows the alphabet and can write his name.

I think "bani israeil" is a sub-group of "ahl al-kitab", not the Jews necessarly. "bani" comes from "bana' " which means to build. "israeil" refers to someone knowing some of the laws of this reality (the laws of the god) but is trying to do too much and adding more rules to these laws for his own gain. They show too much righteousness in public, but in reality they scheme against the others. They don't take the straight road, but take curves, ups and downs, and make every argument to divert people from the main goal.

"israeil" comes from root "sara' " ( ), and means pour out or forth , pour forth , pour out , be poured(out or forth) , pour down , fulminate , gush , flow , leak , squirt, spread.

"bani israeil would then mean "people who create diversion".

Peace,

Mohamed

Peace all;

Please note that Israel is Prophet Jacob, thus a name of a True Prophet. Bani Israel are Bani Jacob (The Children of Jacob). There are the Good ones and the bad ones, and therefore, you can not generalize any Atribute to them (Good or Bad).

Thanks Belalhamd for your input. I appreciate the effort to put in su many issues to help us all along, and I just noticed your signature. It is VERY good.

Now, in general and
reading the quote in conjunction with the Quran's assertion that to all peoples God sent messengers, and therefore messages,

also aya 3.20

"...
and say to the people of the book and to those who are unlearned...
"

We know that in many of the Quran ayas where the people of the Book are mentioned the speech is concerning events that were on at that moment, and referred to eople of the book at hand,

so bearing all that in mind, wouldn't it be conceivable that in fact people of the book, -the One Book, as you point out, that is, all authentic revelation- that people of the book are in fact, as opposed to unlearned, thos who got the message, that is, any recorded message, at any time or moment in history? That message, as with the gospels or torah may have been distorted in any way, but still it may there to whatever extent, and those people who follow that message in the measure they know it, wouldn't be also people of the book?

Salaam

Peace; (thank You)

Any believer should be very careful when making conclusion that are not supported by Quran (or the True Bible and Torah).
I still believe that the True Bible and Torah are gaurded as the Quran; the reason I'm saying that is God, in the Quran, never mention that the Bible and Torah are corrupted by humans, rather, He said that they are his Book, and believer should believe on them.
Any Corruption happend in the Bible or Torah or Quran is in their translated virsions.

As far as other people of the Book, beside the one we know, I can not give you an answer due to the lack of information in Quran.

May God Bless You.
Peace

Peace Farida,

Yes, this explanation makes sense. However, I don't think that what is meant is illiterate in general. Just illiterate in the language of the book. This is confirmed by 278 which refer to some of the descendents of Israel

278. And from them are "ummiyin" who don't know the book except "amani" (amani = recitation without knowing the meaning) and they are but assuming.

Peace,

Ayman

Peace Ayman,

I agree; and I add that their are Millions of those in the People of Quran. But we still have to call them the people of the Book.
Please note that the true believers are people of the Book, as well.

Peace "farida",

JK- Do you disagree that

1. The Quran is to be the only source of religious guidance and wer not to take any hadith besides it as religious or Divine law?
2. Hadith are full of nonsense and barbaric laws?
3. Shariah is one of the few surviving most violent laws on the planet?
   If not then your not disagreeing with me on everything after all. Youve probably just been angered because of my view on Palestine. Well sorry ive my views and we may not agree on everything but to say we disagree on everything would be ridiculous. GOD Bless!

The disagreement is in many issues, and one of them your disbelieving in 9-128 & 129.
(Please let us not make this thread about Code 19)

[jonny_k]

Peace "belalhammad",
Please don't confuse the Bible with the Gospel, Torah, Psalms and the other Books of GOD. The Bible has NEVER been authorized by GOD. It is a collection which CLAIMS to contain the aforementioned books although theres no evidence for that either. Most importantly the Bible contains sub books like leviticus and deuteronomy which contains very absurd and vile laws like stoning adulterers and killing homosexuals etc. GOD Bless!

[unknownuser]

Peace "belalhammad",
Please don't confuse the Bible with the Gospel, Torah, Psalms and the other Books of GOD. The Bible has NEVER been authorized by GOD. It is a collection which CLAIMS to contain the aforementioned books although theres no evidence for that either. Most importantly the Bible contains sub books like leviticus and deuteronomy which contains very absurd and vile laws like stoning adulterers and killing homosexuals etc. GOD Bless!

Salam,
Johnny k those are your words?.

IF you read the previous scripture in THEIR ORIGINAL LANGUAGE you would KNOW that the previous scriptures ARE from ALLAH.

Often times there are people who insist on reading the Quran in Arabic and then settle for a mistranslated version of the previous scripture.

Therefore I repeat
You MUST read ALL scripture in the ORIGINAL languages and then you will KNOW that it is revealation.

But the authority on the Subject is ALWAYS ALLAH so, Let's see what is written in the Quran

1. Previous scripture is REVELATION from ALLAH

33
He has revealed to you the Book with truth, verifying that which is before it, and He revealed the Tavrat and the Injeel aforetime, a guidance for the people, and He sent the Furqan.

543
And how do they make you a judge and they have the Taurat wherein is Allah's judgment? Yet they turn back after that, and these are not the believers.

544
Surely We revealed the Taurat in which was guidance and light; with it the prophets who submitted themselves (to Allah) judged (matters) for those who were Jews, and the masters of Divine knowledge and the doctors, because they were required to guard (part) of the Book of Allah, and they were witnesses thereof; therefore fear not the people and fear Me, and do not take a small price for My communications; and whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed, those are they that are the unbelievers.

545
And We prescribed to them in it that life is for life, and eye for eye, and nose for nose, and ear for ear, and tooth for tooth, and (that there is) reprisal in wounds; but he who foregoes it, it shall be an expiation for him; and whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed, those are they that are the unjust.

546
And We sent after them in their footsteps Isa, son of Marium, verifying what was before him of the Taurat and We gave him the Injeel in which was guidance and light, and verifying what was before it of Taurat and a guidance and an admonition for those who guard (against evil).

547
And the followers of the Injeel should have judged by what Allah revealed in it; and whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed, those are they that are the transgressors.

548
And We have revealed to you the Book with the truth, verifying what is before it of the Book and a guardian over it, therefore judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and do not follow their low desires (to turn away) from the truth that has come to you; for every one of you did We appoint a law and a way, and if Allah had pleased He would have made you (all) a single people, but that He might try you in what He gave you, therefore strive with one another to hasten to virtuous deeds; to Allah is your return, of all (of you), so He will let you know that in which you differed;

2. YOU follow NO GOOD until you Keep up the Torah and Injeel

568
Say O followers of the Book! you follow no good till you keep up the Taurat and the Injeel and that which is revealed to you from your Lord; and surely that which has been revealed to you from your Lord shall make many of them increase in inordinacy and unbelief; grieve not therefore for the unbelieving people.

The ones who are GUIDED?.BELIEVE in what was revealed BEFORE?THIS is how we know who is guided as said in al baqarah....

24
And who believe in that which has been revealed to you and that which was revealed before you and they are sure of the hereafter.

And this is what is said of those who do NOT believe in previous revelation?..

4136
O you who believe! believe in Allah and His Messenger and the Book which He has revealed to His Messenger and the Book which He revealed before; and whoever disbelieves in Allah and His angels and His messengers and the last day, he indeed strays off into a remote error.

625
The likeness of those who were charged with the Taurat, then they did not observe it, is as the likeness of the ass bearing books, evil is the likeness of the people who reject the communications of Allah; and Allah does not guide the unjust people.

566
And if they had kept up the Taurat and the Injeel and that which was revealed to them from their Lord, they would certainly have eaten from above them and from beneath their feet there is a party of them keeping to the moderate course, and (as for) most of them, evil is that which they do

The common claim is that previous scripture has been lost or altered.

Those who make such claims are also claiming that THEY DISBELIEVE in the Quran when we are TOLD to uphold previous scripture.

I have given several verses as evidence regarding previous scripture. However, there ARE MANY MORE.

Allah clearly states that HE KNOWS BEST what is in the Heavens and the EARTH (that would include knowing that previous scriptures are STILL here for us to UPHOLD as COMMANDED).?

1755
And your Lord best knows those who are in the heavens and the earth; and certainly We have made some of the prophets to excel others, and to Dawood We gave a scripture.

Salam,
Arnab

[belH]

Salam,
Johnny k those are your words?.

IF you read the previous scripture in THEIR ORIGINAL LANGUAGE you would KNOW that the previous scriptures ARE from ALLAH.

Often times there are people who insist on reading the Quran in Arabic and then settle for a mistranslated version of the previous scripture.

Therefore I repeat
You MUST read ALL scripture in the ORIGINAL languages and then you will KNOW that it is revealation.

But the authority on the Subject is ALWAYS ALLAH so, Let's see what is written in the Quran

1. Previous scripture is REVELATION from ALLAH

33
He has revealed to you the Book with truth, verifying that which is before it, and He revealed the Tavrat and the Injeel aforetime, a guidance for the people, and He sent the Furqan.

543
And how do they make you a judge and they have the Taurat wherein is Allah's judgment? Yet they turn back after that, and these are not the believers.

544
Surely We revealed the Taurat in which was guidance and light; with it the prophets who submitted themselves (to Allah) judged (matters) for those who were Jews, and the masters of Divine knowledge and the doctors, because they were required to guard (part) of the Book of Allah, and they were witnesses thereof; therefore fear not the people and fear Me, and do not take a small price for My communications; and whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed, those are they that are the unbelievers.

545
And We prescribed to them in it that life is for life, and eye for eye, and nose for nose, and ear for ear, and tooth for tooth, and (that there is) reprisal in wounds; but he who foregoes it, it shall be an expiation for him; and whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed, those are they that are the unjust.

546
And We sent after them in their footsteps Isa, son of Marium, verifying what was before him of the Taurat and We gave him the Injeel in which was guidance and light, and verifying what was before it of Taurat and a guidance and an admonition for those who guard (against evil).

547
And the followers of the Injeel should have judged by what Allah revealed in it; and whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed, those are they that are the transgressors.

548
And We have revealed to you the Book with the truth, verifying what is before it of the Book and a guardian over it, therefore judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and do not follow their low desires (to turn away) from the truth that has come to you; for every one of you did We appoint a law and a way, and if Allah had pleased He would have made you (all) a single people, but that He might try you in what He gave you, therefore strive with one another to hasten to virtuous deeds; to Allah is your return, of all (of you), so He will let you know that in which you differed;

2. YOU follow NO GOOD until you Keep up the Torah and Injeel

568
Say O followers of the Book! you follow no good till you keep up the Taurat and the Injeel and that which is revealed to you from your Lord; and surely that which has been revealed to you from your Lord shall make many of them increase in inordinacy and unbelief; grieve not therefore for the unbelieving people.

The ones who are GUIDED?.BELIEVE in what was revealed BEFORE?THIS is how we know who is guided as said in al baqarah....

24
And who believe in that which has been revealed to you and that which was revealed before you and they are sure of the hereafter.

And this is what is said of those who do NOT believe in previous revelation?..

4136
O you who believe! believe in Allah and His Messenger and the Book which He has revealed to His Messenger and the Book which He revealed before; and whoever disbelieves in Allah and His angels and His messengers and the last day, he indeed strays off into a remote error.

625
The likeness of those who were charged with the Taurat, then they did not observe it, is as the likeness of the ass bearing books, evil is the likeness of the people who reject the communications of Allah; and Allah does not guide the unjust people.

566
And if they had kept up the Taurat and the Injeel and that which was revealed to them from their Lord, they would certainly have eaten from above them and from beneath their feet there is a party of them keeping to the moderate course, and (as for) most of them, evil is that which they do

The common claim is that previous scripture has been lost or altered.

Those who make such claims are also claiming that THEY DISBELIEVE in the Quran when we are TOLD to uphold previous scripture.

I have given several verses as evidence regarding previous scripture. However, there ARE MANY MORE.

Allah clearly states that HE KNOWS BEST what is in the Heavens and the EARTH (that would include knowing that previous scriptures are STILL here for us to UPHOLD as COMMANDED).?

1755
And your Lord best knows those who are in the heavens and the earth; and certainly We have made some of the prophets to excel others, and to Dawood We gave a scripture.

Salam,
Arnab

Peace everyone
Thank you Arnab for your post, which I agree with 100%.

I saw a version of the Bible that were being sold in Islamic Book Store called The Gospel of Barnabas. Please check the link which has this virsion; moreover, please Google Barnabas (or the Gospel of Barnabas) to get more information. (Prophet Mohamed is mentioned in this Virsion); I do not have any information about it or if it is the right bible or not; please do your search and let me know what do you think.
May God Bless
Peace
http//www.esnips.com/doc/cd010fbe-a280-4278-b11d-6f868c30e080/The-Gospel-of-Barnabas

[Someone]

Peace belalhammad,

Please note that Israel is Prophet Jacob

Can you please provide a proof for this claim?

And I am not saying that only the Jews are "bani israel" nor that all the Jews are "bani israel". In fact, I think that there are "bani israeil" in every community, there are those that are knowledgeables but choose to deceive people for personal gain.

This is true even for the budhist; the villagers provide food for their monks for free, so the monks end up living a much more confortable life than the villagers.

Same for Sunnis, Chiites, Christian.... you always find a minority of knowlegeable people trying to abue the unlearned majority.

---

[belH]

Peace belalhammad,

Can you please provide a proof for this claim?

(&#65279

All food was lawful to the Children of Israel, except what Israel made unlawful for himself before the Torah was revealed. Say "Bring ye the Torah and study it if ye be men of truth." (3-93)

Here, God is saying that Israel, before the Torah was revealed, made certain Food unlawful for himself (for a reason that was not revealed in Quran); due to that the Children of Israel followed the Suna of is Israel and made the Food Unlawful (Haram).

(&#65279
Those were some of the prophets on whom Allah did bestow His Grace of the posterity of Adam, and of those whom We carried (in the Ark) with Noah, and of the posterity of Abraham and Israel of those whom We guided and chose; whenever the Signs of (Allah) Most Gracious were rehearsed to them, they would fall down in prostrate adoration and in tears. (19-5

Here, God is saying that he bestow his Grace on Israel. Moreover, Israel had Seed (big Family) of Humans

And I am not saying that only the Jews are "bani israel" nor that all the Jews are "bani israel". In fact, I think that there are "bani israeil" in every community, there are those that are knowledgeables but choose to deceive people for personal gain.

There are the Jews, Christain, and Moslem of Bni Israel.
Please if you need more information, read the following (it is a study about Bni Israel)
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=16684.0

[jonny_k]

Peace "arnab",

Salam,
Johnny k those are your words?.

IF you read the previous scripture in THEIR ORIGINAL LANGUAGE you would KNOW that the previous scriptures ARE from ALLAH.

Often times there are people who insist on reading the Quran in Arabic and then settle for a mistranslated version of the previous scripture.

Therefore I repeat
You MUST read ALL scripture in the ORIGINAL languages and then you will KNOW that it is revealation.

But the authority on the Subject is ALWAYS ALLAH so, Let's see what is written in the Quran

1. Previous scripture is REVELATION from ALLAH

33
He has revealed to you the Book with truth, verifying that which is before it, and He revealed the Tavrat and the Injeel aforetime, a guidance for the people, and He sent the Furqan.

543
And how do they make you a judge and they have the Taurat wherein is Allah's judgment? Yet they turn back after that, and these are not the believers.

544
Surely We revealed the Taurat in which was guidance and light; with it the prophets who submitted themselves (to Allah) judged (matters) for those who were Jews, and the masters of Divine knowledge and the doctors, because they were required to guard (part) of the Book of Allah, and they were witnesses thereof; therefore fear not the people and fear Me, and do not take a small price for My communications; and whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed, those are they that are the unbelievers.

545
And We prescribed to them in it that life is for life, and eye for eye, and nose for nose, and ear for ear, and tooth for tooth, and (that there is) reprisal in wounds; but he who foregoes it, it shall be an expiation for him; and whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed, those are they that are the unjust.

546
And We sent after them in their footsteps Isa, son of Marium, verifying what was before him of the Taurat and We gave him the Injeel in which was guidance and light, and verifying what was before it of Taurat and a guidance and an admonition for those who guard (against evil).

547
And the followers of the Injeel should have judged by what Allah revealed in it; and whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed, those are they that are the transgressors.

548
And We have revealed to you the Book with the truth, verifying what is before it of the Book and a guardian over it, therefore judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and do not follow their low desires (to turn away) from the truth that has come to you; for every one of you did We appoint a law and a way, and if Allah had pleased He would have made you (all) a single people, but that He might try you in what He gave you, therefore strive with one another to hasten to virtuous deeds; to Allah is your return, of all (of you), so He will let you know that in which you differed;

2. YOU follow NO GOOD until you Keep up the Torah and Injeel

568
Say O followers of the Book! you follow no good till you keep up the Taurat and the Injeel and that which is revealed to you from your Lord; and surely that which has been revealed to you from your Lord shall make many of them increase in inordinacy and unbelief; grieve not therefore for the unbelieving people.

The ones who are GUIDED?.BELIEVE in what was revealed BEFORE?THIS is how we know who is guided as said in al baqarah....

24
And who believe in that which has been revealed to you and that which was revealed before you and they are sure of the hereafter.

And this is what is said of those who do NOT believe in previous revelation?..

4136
O you who believe! believe in Allah and His Messenger and the Book which He has revealed to His Messenger and the Book which He revealed before; and whoever disbelieves in Allah and His angels and His messengers and the last day, he indeed strays off into a remote error.

625
The likeness of those who were charged with the Taurat, then they did not observe it, is as the likeness of the ass bearing books, evil is the likeness of the people who reject the communications of Allah; and Allah does not guide the unjust people.

566
And if they had kept up the Taurat and the Injeel and that which was revealed to them from their Lord, they would certainly have eaten from above them and from beneath their feet there is a party of them keeping to the moderate course, and (as for) most of them, evil is that which they do

The common claim is that previous scripture has been lost or altered.

Those who make such claims are also claiming that THEY DISBELIEVE in the Quran when we are TOLD to uphold previous scripture.

I have given several verses as evidence regarding previous scripture. However, there ARE MANY MORE.

Allah clearly states that HE KNOWS BEST what is in the Heavens and the EARTH (that would include knowing that previous scriptures are STILL here for us to UPHOLD as COMMANDED).?

1755
And your Lord best knows those who are in the heavens and the earth; and certainly We have made some of the prophets to excel others, and to Dawood We gave a scripture.

Salam,
Arnab

JK- Ok if you say that the Bible in it's original language is from GOD then would you accept this
Leviticus 2010
" 'If a man commits adultery with another man's wife?with the wife of his neighbor?both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death.
Leviticus 2013
" 'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

This is translated from the original hebrew from Leviticus. There are many more in this book of the Bible and deuteronomy and others. Will you accept this as he Word or inspiration of GOD?
The true part of GOD' Word is always numerically structured or coded. Indeed parts of the Bible are and we can accept those verses as Divinely inspired but not the book called Bible. You can compare the Bible to the mushaf(book into which claims t contain the Quran) perhaps then itd be clear. GOD Bless!

[unknownuser]

Peace "arnab",

JK- Ok if you say that the Bible in it's original language is from GOD then would you accept this
Leviticus 2010
" 'If a man commits adultery with another man's wife?with the wife of his neighbor?both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death.
Leviticus 2013
" 'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

It does NOT say put to death. IT DOES say die the death. That is not an ordinance upon people to carry out such punishment. IT is what will result from their crime. The same thing was told to Adam when he was expelled from jannah. And obviously he did not immediately die nor did someone kill him. So, you need to understand HEBREW if you want to ACCURATELY scrutinize the Torah.

This is translated from the original hebrew from Leviticus.

That means nothing to me that you think a translation is accurate. What if someone who was non-muslim brought you a Yusuf Ali translation of the Quran and insisted that it was from the original Arabic and the verse was mistranslated. brickwall

You cannot understand the Torah without reading it in Hebrew just as you cannot understand the Quran without reading it in Arabic. You have to read scripture in the original languages.

There are many more in this book of the Bible and deuteronomy and others. Will you accept this as he Word or inspiration of GOD?

I think I've already answered this several times. Just because you do not get the answer you want does not mean the answer will change if you keep asking me.

Salam,
Arnab

[jonny_k]

Peace "arnab",

It does NOT say put to death. IT DOES say die the death. That is not an ordinance upon people to carry out such punishment. IT is what will result from their crime. The same thing was told to Adam when he was expelled from jannah. And obviously he did not immediately die nor did someone kill him. So, you need to understand HEBREW if you want to ACCURATELY scrutinize the Torah.

JK- Ok here i quote some more verses just from Leviticus

If a man has sex with his father's wife, kill them both. 2011

If a man "lies" with his daughter-in-law, then both must be killed. 2012

If you "lie" with your wife and your mother-in-law (now that sounds fun!), then all three of you must be burned to death. 2014

If a man or woman "lie with a beast" both the person and the poor animal are to be killed. 2015-16

People with "familiar spirits" (witches, fortune tellers, etc.) are to be stoned to death. 2027

So these are not just consequences as you can see from the keywords. And the list of absurdities goes on

A priest's daughter who "plays the whore" is to be burned to death. 219

God gives detailed instructions for performing ritualistic animal sacrifices. such bloody rituals must be important to God, judging from the number of times that he repeats their instructions. Indeed the entire first nine chapters of Leviticus can be summarized as follows Get an animal, kill it, sprinkle the blood around, cut the dead animal into pieces, and burn it for a "sweet savor unto the Lord." Chapters 1 - 9

"Flay the burnt offering; cut it into pieces." 16

Burn the head, fat, and entrails for "a sweet savour unto the Lord." 18-9

"Kill it and sprinkle blood round about." 111, 32, 38, 313

"Cut it into pieces and burn it for a sweet savour unto the Lord." 112-13

"Wring off its head and burn it." 115

"For a sweet savour unto the Lord." 117

"Part it in pieces... it is a meat offering." 26

"It is a thing most holy of the offerings of the LORD made by fire." 210

What to do with the fat, kidneys, and liver of your burnt offerings. 33-4, 39-10, 314-16

"Kill the bullock before the Lord and take of the bullock's blood." 44

"The priest shall dip his finger in the blood and sprinkle the blood seven times before the Lord." 46, 417

"Pour all the blood at the bottom of the altar." 47

What to do with the fat, kidneys, liver, skin, head, entrails, and dung from your burnt offerings. 48-11

"The bullock shall be killed before the Lord." 414

"Kill it and pour out the blood." 424-25

"Slay it for a sin offering, pour out the blood, and burn the fat for a sweet savour unto the Lord." 429-31

Slay it for a sin offering, put the blood on your finger, and pour out the blood at the bottom of the altar. 433-34

Wringing off the heads of pigeons for God. 58-9

Kill the sin offering before the Lord. "It is most holy." 625

The holy law of trespass offering Find an animal; kill it; sprinkle the blood around; offer God the fat, rump, kidneys, and caul; burn and eat it in the holy place, for "it is most holy." 71-6

The priest must sprinkle the blood of the peace offerings. 714

Be careful what you eat during these animal sacrifices. Don't eat fat or blood -- these are for God. (And he doesn't like to share!) 718-27

God gives instructions for "wave offerings" and "heave offerings." He says these offerings are to be made perpetually "by a statute for ever." Have you made your heave offering today? 730-36

Moses does it all for God. First he kills an animal; wipes the blood on Aaron's ears, thumbs, and big toes. Then he sprinkles blood round about and waves the guts before the Lord. Finally he burns the whole mess for "a sweet savour before the Lord." 814-32

More killing, sprinkling of blood, waiving animal parts, and burning carcasses "before the Lord." 92-21

Kill the calf, dip your finger in the blood, sprinkle the blood round about, burn the fat and entrails, and wave the breast for a wave offering before the Lord. 98-21

Two of the sons of Aaron "offered strange fire before the Lord" and "there went out fire from the Lord, and devoured them, and they died before the Lord." 101-3

If priests misbehave at the tabernacle by uncovering their heads, tearing their clothes, leaving with holy oil on them, or by drinking "wine or strong drink", then God will kill them and send his wrath on "all the people." 106-9

After a woman gives birth, a priest must kill a lamb, pigeon, or dove as a sin offering. This is because having children is sinful and God likes it when things are killed for him. 126-8

God's law for lepers Get two birds. Kill one. Dip the live bird in the blood of the dead one. Sprinkle the blood on the leper seven times, and then let the blood-soaked bird fly off. Next find a lamb and kill it. Wipe some of its blood on the patient's right ear, thumb, and big toe. Sprinkle seven times with oil and wipe some of the oil on his right ear, thumb and big toe. Repeat. Finally kill a couple doves and offer one for a sin offering and the other for a burnt offering. 142-32

God "put the plague of leprosy" into the houses of the Canaanites. 1434

God explains the use of scapegoats. It goes like this Get two goats. Kill one. Wipe, smear, and sprinkle the blood around seven times. Then take the other goat, give it the sins of all the people, and send it off into the wilderness. 166-28

Sprinkle the blood and burn the fat for a sweet savour unto the Lord. 176

If you upset God, he'll cause the land to vomit you out. 1825

"Whosoever shall commit any of these abominations ... shall be cut off from among their people." 1829, 198

Don't eat sacrifices on the third day or God will cut you off from among your people. 196-8

Kill anyone who "gives his seed" to Molech. If you refuse, God will cut you and your family off. 202-5

"For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall surely be put to death." Couldn't we try spanking first? 209

God gives us more instructions on killing and burning animals. I guess the first nine chapters of Leviticus wasn't enough. He says we must do this because he really likes the smell -- it is "a sweet savour unto the Lord." 2312-14, 18

Don't do any work on the day of atonement or God will destroy you. 2329-30

A man curses and blasphemes while disputing with another man. Moses asks God what to do about it. God says that the whole community must stone him to death. "And the children of Israel did as the Lord and Moses commanded." 2410-23

Anyone who blasphemes or curses shall be stoned to death by the entire community. 2416

God tells the Israelites to make slaves out of their neighbors and their families. The "heathens" and "strangers" are to be their possessions forever. 2544-46

God tells the Israelites to "chase" their enemies and make them "fall before you by the sword." He figures five of the Israelites will be able to "chase" a hundred of their enemies, and a hundred will be able to "put ten thousand to flight." 267-8

God describes the torments that he has planned for those who displease him. The usual stuff plagues, burning fevers that will consume the eyes, etc. but he reserves the worst for the little children. He says "ye shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it," "I will send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your children," and "ye shall eat the flesh of your sons and daughters." 2616-39

All "devoted" things (both man and beast) "shall surely be put to death." 2728-29

That means nothing to me that you think a translation is accurate. What if someone who was non-muslim brought you a Yusuf Ali translation of the Quran and insisted that it was from the original Arabic and the verse was mistranslated. brickwall

JK- Ok lets see how much of the above verses you can prove have not been translated correctly and then we can talk. Clerarly theres alot of nonsense in the hebrew bible too so it cannot be containing the true torah or gospel or psalms. Experts on hebrew language agree that the Bible books have many versions and they are by no means similar in all ways.

You cannot understand the Torah without reading it in Hebrew just as you cannot understand the Quran without reading it in Arabic. You have to read scripture in the original languages.

JK- As i said lets start doing that then and see how much accurate the current Hebrew Bible is.

There are many more in this book of the Bible and deuteronomy and others. Will you accept this as he Word or inspiration of GOD?

JK- NO i will not. It would be a defamation of GOD is i did so. Infact much of the hadith are derived from the Bible. Where do you think the command of stoning married adulterers comes from if not from the Bible? Infact the following article proofs that much of the absurdities in hadith are plagiarized from the Bible
http//y19.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=51

I think I've already answered this several times. Just because you do not get the answer you want does not mean the answer will change if you keep asking me.

Salam,
Arnab

JK- Ok lets have a discussion on what i mentioned above. REALLY i can see you have alot of misconceptions. Secular Scholars of the Bible have already studied it IN HEBREW and discredited it. It surprises me that you insist that the Hebrew Bible is the true Word of GOD. GOD Bless!

[jonny_k]

Peace again "arnab",

Here is a list of more absurdities from the book of Deuteronomy and your welcome to point out the mistakes in translation again if you can

God gave the Moabites and the Ammonites special protection since they were the descendents of Lot's drunken, incestuous affair with his daughters (Gen.1930-3. 29, 19

"A land of giants giants dwelt therein in old time." (They must have been much more common back then.) 210-11, 20-21

Og, the king of the giants, was a tall man, even by NBA standards. His bed measured 9 by 4 cubits (13.5 feet long and 6 feet wide). 311

Comment We have solid evidence from palaentology that clearly shows no hominid fossils larger than us.

God's favorite people will never be infertile (neither will their cows!) and will never get sick. (God will send infertility and diseases on the other guys.) 714-15

God will send hornets to kill your enemies, "for the Lord thy God is among you, a mighty God and terrible." 720-23

After God instructs the Israelites to mercilessly slaughter all the strangers that they encounter (Dt.72, 16), he tells them to "love ye therefore the stranger for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt." 1019

Stone to death blasphemers, Sabbath breakers, and disobedient sons 1232

Don't "make any baldness between your eyes for the dead." 141

This verse mistakenly says that the hare chews its cud which they dont and you can ask any scientist. 147-8

Don't eat any seafood unless it has fins and scales. Oysters, clams, crabs, and lobsters are "unclean" and shouldn't be eaten. 1410

To the biblical God, a bat is just an another unclean bird. 1411, 18

Don't eat any dead animals that you find lying around. But it's okay to give it to strangers or sell it to foreigners. And don't boil a kid (young goat) is its mother's milk. 1421

If you find a dead body and don't know the cause of death, then get all the elders together, cut off the head of a heifer, wash your hands over its body, and say our hands have not shed this blood. (That'll do it!) 211-8

Hang on trees the bodies of those who are "accursed of God." They make nice decorations. 2122

Women are not to wear men's clothing -- it's an "abomination unto the Lord." 225

"Thou shalt not plow with an ox and an ass together" or wear wool and linen together in the same garment. But "thou shalt make thee fringes upon the four quarters of thy vesture." 2210-12

You can't go to church if your testicles are damaged or your penis has been cut off. 231

God won't let bastards attend church. Neither can the sons or daughters of bastards "even to the tenth generation." So if you plan to attend church next Sunday be ready to prove that your genitals are intact and don't forget your birth certificate and genealogical records for at least the last ten generations. Don't laugh. This stuff is important to God. 232

God gives us instructions for defecating. He says to carefully cover up all feces "for the Lord walketh in the midst of thy camp." (You wouldn't want the divine foot to step in your shit, would you?) 2312-14

Remarrying your former wife after divorcing her is an abomination to the Lord. 244

If a man dies without having a child, his brother shall "go in unto" his dead brother's wife. If he refuses, the dead man's wife is to loosen his shoe and spit in his face. 255-10

If two men fight and the wife of one grabs the "secrets" of the other, "then thou shalt cut off her hand" and "thy eye shall not pity her." 2511-12

"I have not ... given ought thereof for the dead.
Don't worry God. I haven't offered any food to dead people. 2614

"The stranger that is within thee shall get up above thee very high; and thou shalt come down very low ... he shall be the head, and thou shalt be the tail." 2843-44

The shoes and clothing of the Israelites didn't wear out even after wandering in the wilderness for forty years. They just don't make them like they used to! 295

God will circumcise your heart and "the heart of thy seed." 306

When Moses was 120 years old he could no longer "go out and come in." Yet just a little later (Dt.347) we are told that "his eye was not dim, nor his natural forces abated." 311-2

"Their wine is the poison of dragons." I wonder what genus and species the bible is referring to when it mentions dragons. 3233

Joseph's "horns are like the horns of a unicorn." 3317

Moses, the alleged author of the Pentateuch, describes his own death and burial. 345

GOD Bless!

[jonny_k]

Peace "arnab",
Here again is a list of more vile statements from the same book of Deuteronomy. Again your welcome to point out the faults in translation IF any.

"The Lord destroyed them before them" -- the general treatment of the people who were supposedly displaced by the Israelites. 221-22

All nations shall be terrorized by the followers of Yahweh. 225

At God's instructions, the Israelites "utterly destroyed the men, women, and the little ones" leaving "none to remain." 233-36

The Israelites, with God's help, kill all the men, women, and children of every city. 33-6

If someone makes an image of anything (like a bird or flower) then God will destroy the entire nation. 425-26

If you worship the wrong god, God will get jealous and kill you. 615

God instructs the Israelites to kill, without mercy, all the inhabitants (strangers) of the land that they conquer. 72

If you do show any mercy to such strangers, "give your daughters to any of them, or "take" any of their daughters, then you'll get God so angry that he'll "destroy thee suddenly." 74

God commands his people to "consume all the people which the Lord thy God shall deliver thee; thine eye shall have no pity on them." 716

God is "a consuming fire" that destroys people. 93

"The blood of sacrifices shall be poured out ... and thou shalt eat the flesh." Isn't this the sort of thing that Satanists are accused of doing? 1227

After God kills those of other faiths, be sure to reject their beliefs and do not learn about them. Otherwise God will have to kill you too. 1230

Prophets and dreamers are to be executed if they say or dream the wrong things. 131-5

If your brother, son, daughter, wife, or friend tries to get you to worship another god, "thou shalt surely kill him, thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death." 136-10 (Here the verse is clearly a COMMAND and not just a consequence or explain using the exact Hebrew terms)

If you hear of a city where another god is worshiped, then destroy everyone in the city (even the cattle) and burn it down. (Watch out Salt Lake!) 1312-16

Kill everyone who has religious beliefs that are different from your own. 172-7

Anyone who will not listen to a priest or a judge must be executed. 1712-13

False prophets are to be (you guessed it) executed. How do you know who is a false prophet? By whether or not their predictions come true. (Watch out Jehovah's Witnesses!) 1820

Murderers and perjurers are to be executed -- "and thine eye shall not pity" them. 1911-13, 18-21

"And thine eye shall not pity. Life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot." 1921

In the cities that god "delivers into thine hands" you must kill all the males (including old men, boys, and babies) with "the edge of the sword .... But the women ... shalt thou take unto yourself." 2013

"But of the cities ... which the Lord thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth." Kill the old men and women, the sick and the dying, the blind and the lame, pregnant mothers, nursing mothers, infants, toddlers, and babies. 2016

If you have a "stubborn and rebellious son," then you and the other men in your neighborhood "shall stone him with stones that he die." 2118-21

If a man marries, then decides that he hates his wife, he can claim she wasn't a virgin when they were married. If her father can't produce the "tokens of her virginity" (bloody sheets), then the woman is to be stoned to death at her father's doorstep. 2213-21

If a betrothed virgin is raped in the city and doesn't cry out loud enough, then "the men of the city shall stone her to death." 2223-24

Legal disputes are settled by a judge who determines guilt or innocence. No lawyers or jury are needed. 251-3

If two men fight and the wife of one grabs the "secrets" of the other, "then thou shalt cut off her hand" and "thine eye shall not pity her." 2511-12

"Thou shalt begat sons and daughters, but thou shall not enjoy them; for they shall go into captivity." 2841

"All these curses shall come upon thee ... and upon thy seed for ever." 2848-49

"The tender and delicate woman" will be forced to eat her own children "that cometh out from between her feet." 2856-57

Moses tells the people that God will destroy all the inhabitants of the lands that they pass through. 313

When God gets mad -- watch out! He'll starve you to death, burn you with fire, and send vicious beasts to devour you. He'll "destroy both the young man and the virgin, the suckling also with the man of gray hairs." Not even the helpless and innocent are spared by this psychotic God. 3221-26

God says, "To me belongeth vengeance, and recompense ... for the day of their destruction is at hand." 3235

God says, "I kill ... I wound ... I will make my arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh." Someone should take his sword and arrows away, at least until he's feeling better. 3239-43

GOD Bless!

[jonny_k]

Peace "arnab",
Here look at this clear verse
Leviticus 2416
'Moreover, the one who blasphemes the name of the LORD shall surely be put to death(ok consequence maybe argued upto here but then...); all the congregation shall certainly stone him. The alien as well as the native, when he blasphemes the Name, shall be put to death.

So it is clear that this is a command the "faithful" congregation to carry out. GOD Bless!

[unknownuser]

Peace "arnab",

JK- Ok here i quote some more verses just from Leviticus

If a man has sex with his father's wife, kill them both. 2011

If a man "lies" with his daughter-in-law, then both must be killed. 2012

If you "lie" with your wife and your mother-in-law (now that sounds fun!), then all three of you must be burned to death. 2014

If a man or woman "lie with a beast" both the person and the poor animal are to be killed. 2015-16

People with "familiar spirits" (witches, fortune tellers, etc.) are to be stoned to death. 2027

So these are not just consequences as you can see from the keywords. And the list of absurdities goes on

A priest's daughter who "plays the whore" is to be burned to death. 219

God gives detailed instructions for performing ritualistic animal sacrifices. such bloody rituals must be important to God, judging from the number of times that he repeats their instructions. Indeed the entire first nine chapters of Leviticus can be summarized as follows Get an animal, kill it, sprinkle the blood around, cut the dead animal into pieces, and burn it for a "sweet savor unto the Lord." Chapters 1 - 9

"Flay the burnt offering; cut it into pieces." 16

Burn the head, fat, and entrails for "a sweet savour unto the Lord." 18-9

"Kill it and sprinkle blood round about." 111, 32, 38, 313

"Cut it into pieces and burn it for a sweet savour unto the Lord." 112-13

"Wring off its head and burn it." 115

"For a sweet savour unto the Lord." 117

"Part it in pieces... it is a meat offering." 26

"It is a thing most holy of the offerings of the LORD made by fire." 210

What to do with the fat, kidneys, and liver of your burnt offerings. 33-4, 39-10, 314-16

"Kill the bullock before the Lord and take of the bullock's blood." 44

"The priest shall dip his finger in the blood and sprinkle the blood seven times before the Lord." 46, 417

"Pour all the blood at the bottom of the altar." 47

What to do with the fat, kidneys, liver, skin, head, entrails, and dung from your burnt offerings. 48-11

"The bullock shall be killed before the Lord." 414

"Kill it and pour out the blood." 424-25

"Slay it for a sin offering, pour out the blood, and burn the fat for a sweet savour unto the Lord." 429-31

Slay it for a sin offering, put the blood on your finger, and pour out the blood at the bottom of the altar. 433-34

Wringing off the heads of pigeons for God. 58-9

Kill the sin offering before the Lord. "It is most holy." 625

The holy law of trespass offering Find an animal; kill it; sprinkle the blood around; offer God the fat, rump, kidneys, and caul; burn and eat it in the holy place, for "it is most holy." 71-6

The priest must sprinkle the blood of the peace offerings. 714

Be careful what you eat during these animal sacrifices. Don't eat fat or blood -- these are for God. (And he doesn't like to share!) 718-27

God gives instructions for "wave offerings" and "heave offerings." He says these offerings are to be made perpetually "by a statute for ever." Have you made your heave offering today? 730-36

Moses does it all for God. First he kills an animal; wipes the blood on Aaron's ears, thumbs, and big toes. Then he sprinkles blood round about and waves the guts before the Lord. Finally he burns the whole mess for "a sweet savour before the Lord." 814-32

More killing, sprinkling of blood, waiving animal parts, and burning carcasses "before the Lord." 92-21

Kill the calf, dip your finger in the blood, sprinkle the blood round about, burn the fat and entrails, and wave the breast for a wave offering before the Lord. 98-21

Two of the sons of Aaron "offered strange fire before the Lord" and "there went out fire from the Lord, and devoured them, and they died before the Lord." 101-3

If priests misbehave at the tabernacle by uncovering their heads, tearing their clothes, leaving with holy oil on them, or by drinking "wine or strong drink", then God will kill them and send his wrath on "all the people." 106-9

After a woman gives birth, a priest must kill a lamb, pigeon, or dove as a sin offering. This is because having children is sinful and God likes it when things are killed for him. 126-8

God's law for lepers Get two birds. Kill one. Dip the live bird in the blood of the dead one. Sprinkle the blood on the leper seven times, and then let the blood-soaked bird fly off. Next find a lamb and kill it. Wipe some of its blood on the patient's right ear, thumb, and big toe. Sprinkle seven times with oil and wipe some of the oil on his right ear, thumb and big toe. Repeat. Finally kill a couple doves and offer one for a sin offering and the other for a burnt offering. 142-32

God "put the plague of leprosy" into the houses of the Canaanites. 1434

God explains the use of scapegoats. It goes like this Get two goats. Kill one. Wipe, smear, and sprinkle the blood around seven times. Then take the other goat, give it the sins of all the people, and send it off into the wilderness. 166-28

Sprinkle the blood and burn the fat for a sweet savour unto the Lord. 176

If you upset God, he'll cause the land to vomit you out. 1825

"Whosoever shall commit any of these abominations ... shall be cut off from among their people." 1829, 198

Don't eat sacrifices on the third day or God will cut you off from among your people. 196-8

Kill anyone who "gives his seed" to Molech. If you refuse, God will cut you and your family off. 202-5

"For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall surely be put to death." Couldn't we try spanking first? 209

God gives us more instructions on killing and burning animals. I guess the first nine chapters of Leviticus wasn't enough. He says we must do this because he really likes the smell -- it is "a sweet savour unto the Lord." 2312-14, 18

Don't do any work on the day of atonement or God will destroy you. 2329-30

A man curses and blasphemes while disputing with another man. Moses asks God what to do about it. God says that the whole community must stone him to death. "And the children of Israel did as the Lord and Moses commanded." 2410-23

Anyone who blasphemes or curses shall be stoned to death by the entire community. 2416

God tells the Israelites to make slaves out of their neighbors and their families. The "heathens" and "strangers" are to be their possessions forever. 2544-46

God tells the Israelites to "chase" their enemies and make them "fall before you by the sword." He figures five of the Israelites will be able to "chase" a hundred of their enemies, and a hundred will be able to "put ten thousand to flight." 267-8

God describes the torments that he has planned for those who displease him. The usual stuff plagues, burning fevers that will consume the eyes, etc. but he reserves the worst for the little children. He says "ye shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it," "I will send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your children," and "ye shall eat the flesh of your sons and daughters." 2616-39

All "devoted" things (both man and beast) "shall surely be put to death." 2728-29

Salam,

I'm going to paste what I wrote in another thread here because it is requires a similiar answer (http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9596859.msg174548#msg17454

These are verdicts/sentences/penalties. We are told the same thing in the Quran. These are the outermost verdicts that we are allowed to use in a matter.

543

Surely We revealed the Taurat in which was guidance and light; with it the prophets who submitted themselves (to Allah) judged (matters) for those who were Jews, and the masters of Divine knowledge and the doctors, because they were required to guard (part) of the Book of Allah, and they were witnesses thereof; therefore fear not the people and fear Me, and do not take a small price for My communications; and whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed, those are they that are the unbelievers.

545

And We prescribed to them in it that life is for life, and eye for eye, and nose for nose, and ear for ear, and tooth for tooth, and (that there is) reprisal in wounds; but he who foregoes it, it shall be an expiation for him; and whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed, those are they that are the unjust.

The Quran acknowledges those are the judgments that were outlined in the Torah. Just because those are allowed in an extreme case, IT does not mean that YOU HAVE TO give that Judgement. IT means that is the utmost extent of the judgments that you can give according to each crime. There are many times when beni Isreal did ATROCIOUS things and by all rights they could have been punished accordingly but Allah forgave them.
Many of the prophets after the Torah period spoke out about the way the Isrealites were automatically going to extremes and forgetting to be merciful. Even, Isa spoke about this frequently.

At the end of the verses we are told that who does not judge by what Allah revealed they are the unjust.

Here is an example of some verses that indicate forgiveness (the translation is faulty and inaccurate but you this is just to give you the idea...also these are not the only verses regarding mercy and forgiveness-obviously)

Num 1522 And when ye shall err, and not observe all these commandments, which the LORD hath spoken unto Moses,
Num 1523 even all that the LORD hath commanded you by the hand of Moses, from the day that the LORD gave commandment, and onward throughout your generations;
Num 1524 then it shall be, if it be done in error by the congregation, it being hid from their eyes, that all the congregation shall offer one young bullock for a burnt-offering, for a sweet savour unto the LORD - with the meal-offering thereof, and the drink-offering thereof, according to the ordinance - and one he-goat for a sin-offering.
Num 1525 And the priest shall make atonement for all the congregation of the children of Israel, and they shall be forgiven; for it was an error, and they have brought their offering, an offering made by fire unto the LORD, and their sin-offering before the LORD, for their error.
Num 1526 And all the congregation of the children of Israel shall be forgiven, and the stranger that sojourneth among them; for in respect of all the people it was done in error.
Num 1527 And if one person sin through error, then he shall offer a she-goat of the first year for a sin-offering.
Num 1528 And the priest shall make atonement for the soul that erreth, when he sinneth through error, before the LORD, to make atonement for him; and he shall be forgiven,
Num 1529 both he that is home-born among the children of Israel, and the stranger that sojourneth among them ye shall have one law for him that doeth aught in error.

Also Deuteronomy (27-30) effectively outlines the "blessing and the curse" so that one understands that God is always merciful and forgiving if you turn to him but wrathful if you turn away from him and his commandments.

JK- Ok lets see how much of the above verses you can prove have not been translated correctly and then we can talk.

Are you kidding me?
You want me to translate and teach you hebrew in all of those verses. OF course there are many mis-translations and misconceptions.

What would you do if a non-muslim who did not understand a word of Arabic gave you a list (such as above) from Surah Al-Baqarah and asked you to explain them and the mistranslations in one sitting....and demanded all the answers at once. It's impossible.

Now, if you want to be reasonable....pick a verse. ONE verse at a time and we can go through them one at a time. I will be happy to explain them to you. But don't be unreasonable.

Clerarly theres alot of nonsense in the hebrew bible too so it cannot be containing the true torah or gospel or psalms. Experts on hebrew language agree that the Bible books have many versions and they are by no means similar in all ways.

So-called Experts on the Quran say similiar things that are NOT true. They pick it apart often. Does that mean its true? No it does not.

JK- Ok lets have a discussion on what i mentioned above. REALLY i can see you have alot of misconceptions. Secular Scholars of the Bible have already studied it IN HEBREW and discredited it. It surprises me that you insist that the Hebrew Bible is the true Word of GOD. GOD Bless!

There are also people who have read the Quran and "discredited" it. That means nothing to me. One is either in submission to Allah or one listens to nonsense.

I read the Tanakh, the Injeel and Quran in the original languages. I know what I read. There are no misconceptions/misunderstandings/inaccuracies in the original languages.

Salam,
Arnab

[jonny_k]

Peace "arnab",
The message of the Quran is very different. Yes it allows eye for and eye etc BUT THTS THE MAXIMUM and forgiveness is better. But the Bible states that blasphemers be killed just because they worship a different god or worship false gods where the Quran provides freedom of religion/ideology. If it were not for the Bible hadith might have never appeared and sunnis/shias would have never have these violent laws with them. They all make the statement that those are continuations OF THE LAW OF MOSES. Is this all coincidence? I dont think so. Here check this out
http//y19.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=51
You can clearly identify the pattern. GOD Bless!

[jonny_k]

Peace "arnab",
Lets start with these two verses from Leviticus

2014 And if a man take a wife and her mother, it is wickedness they shall be burnt with fire, both he and they; that there be no wickedness among you.

2027 A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death they shall stone them with stones their blood shall be upon them.

GOD Bless!

[unknownuser]

Peace "arnab",
Lets start with these two verses from Leviticus

These are the OUTERMOST EXTREMES that one can take, as I've said before.

2014 And if a man take a wife and her mother, it is wickedness they shall be burnt with fire, both he and they; that there be no wickedness among you.

2027 A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death they shall stone them with stones their blood shall be upon them.

GOD Bless!

What is it that you don't understand?

Probably the fact that these are the OUTER LIMITS that can be taken.

4171
"O followers of the Book! do not exceed the limits in your religion...."

Notice the words "do not exceed the limits?"

Also, remember that MANY PROPHETS came after TORAH that URGED beni Isreal not TO BE QUICK TO JUDGE AND ISSUE PENALTIES such as above?

The TORAH is the LAW and PUNISHMENT after something has been witnessed, presented, judged etc....

Don't look at the Torah as if it is the last word.
It is not.

After the TORAH many prophets came including ISA

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And when Isa came with clear arguments he said I have come to you indeed with wisdom, and that I may make clear to you part of what you differ in; so be careful of (your duty to) Allah and obey me

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And authenticating what is present with me of the Torah, and to make lawful some of that which was forbidden to you; and I have come to you with a sign from your Lord, so be aware of God and obey me."

There are verses regarding punishment that are similiar within the Quran. Do you think the Quran is free from shocking punishments to be given to people in extreme cases? Surely, you are aware of these. IT is no different in the Torah.

Salam,
Arnab