The 5 stages of a Muslim turning Quran Aloner

Samia

Questioning of sharia laws (but not of rituals and hadith)
Questioning of hadith (but not of rituals)
Questioning of rituals (but not of existence of those rituals, merely a revision of them)
Questioning of the very existence of rituals (including Mecca itself)
Questioning the existence of historical personalities (like nabis and rasul).

These are roughly the stages I went through, with a slight difference in stage 1 and stage 5.
I would say I had a pre stage 1 from a very young age questioning customs and traditions (not hadith). Later, when I started questioning hadith itself, I found in it the basis for those customs and traditions. In beteen was the stage 1.

Stage 5 I do not question the existence of historical personalities such as nabi and rasool, simply because the quraan tells us about them. However, I do not think that this is what meant by "believing in His messengers" but "believing in His MESSAGES". The word "rasool" also means message. Moreover, God says that He did not tell us about all the messenger, and at the same time we are not supposed to differentiate between the messengers. How can I believe "equally" in the existence of messengers I was not told about?

huruf

Regarding the Prophets I think we are being to I-centric. The messengers are all the same even if we do not see them. They know, God knows, we... what does it matter... we may be also know there are all the same, because the are one, all the messengers are one, because one is the message, and the messenger knows that the message is one, and therefore doesn't see Himself as apart from this unit of messengership, add to that they are humble, so the problem, if there is one, is there is a not in them but in us.

Precisely, because they are one, it doesn't matter if we speak about 3isa or Abraham or any unknown (to us) messenger, through any one we think we are acknowledging all of them. They are not distinguishable, which is why we may not know of many -and there must have been very many if they were sent to all peoples and to the jinns- and that is also why we do not need to know too many particulars about any (which foot the shoed first, or things like that), if it is not to highlight some part of the message.

Salaam

Wakas

peace Layth,

Now, the Quran tells us that people who deny the messengers have gone astray.

I dont think it is possible that one can deny the messenger AND accept the message, thus it is likely you have misunderstood what stage 5 means. It is not my list so I cant be certain what it means either.

Therefore, there is a clear contradiction between what you suggest are signs of enlightenment and what the Quran describes as going astray.

What I suggest? I suggest re-reading my posts.

Katara

Dear Wakas,

There is no strawman argument here. Let us discusus what you actually said

Now, the Quran tells us that people who deny the messengers have gone astray.

Basically, it means the different stages a Muslim who turns to the "Quran Alone" view goes though on their journey of increasing knowledge/discovery, with stage 5 being the highest level

Questioning the existence of historical personalities (like nabis and rasul).

Questioning doesn't automatically means denying.
Rejection can come after questioning, but not all the time.

Layth

Peace Katara,

Questioning doesn't automatically means denying.
Rejection can come after questioning, but not all the time.

I agree with your comment. But my problem with this list was not the questioning aspect, but questioning the Quran`a authenticity on the subject which is what is being implied from point # 5

Questioning of sharia laws (but not of rituals and hadith)
Questioning of hadith (but not of rituals)
Questioning of rituals (but not of existence of those rituals, merely a revision of them)
Questioning of the very existence of rituals (including Mecca itself)
Questioning the existence of historical personalities (like nabis and rasul).

You see, if you already have questioned/rejected the hadiths as per point # 2, then the only source left for you to draw information from is th Quran. Therefore, if, by point # 5 you are questioning the existence of the prohets/messengers, that means you are doing so based on what has been written in the Quran - which is questiong/doubting God`s rendition of these accounts.

It may be I am misunderstanding the meaning of point # 5, however, no alternative understanding has been provided.

It is not my list so I cant be certain what it means either.

Wakas

peace Layth, all,

I would think it means something along the lines of the messengers being beyond our concern, i.e. scope of verification, i.e. we cant verify them we can only verify the message. It is probably related to the previous stage of de-emphasising historical places and stage 5 is de-emphasising historical personalities.

I cannot be sure.

When I originally recalled the list, I thought stage 5 was "demeccafication".

sarah2505

Ha ha. Funny list, but a little inaccurate, I think. 1 and 2 are false for me, and as for 5, I never took much interest in them beyond the descriptions of what they did e.g. Partin seas(Moses), dreamin (Joseph). I don't think no.5 can actually be called the highest stage.
Peace
Sarah

Katara

I would say the highest stage of the process ("muslim" turning "Quran Alone&quot is pondering the existence of Allah, that is, questioning the main point of Quran's message (e.i.,fear and obey God).... and then submission to Allah by believing in the quran...

Just some food for thought
...Those items in the list, rather than being ordered in stages, those items might be connected to one another in a circle. A person could reach "Quran Alone" by starting at any point/item.

Edip_Yuksel

peace all,

Basically, it means the different stages a Muslim who turns to the "Quran Alone" view goes though on their journey of increasing knowledge/discovery, with stage 5 being the highest level

Questioning of sharia laws (but not of rituals and hadith)
Questioning of hadith (but not of rituals)
Questioning of rituals (but not of existence of those rituals, merely a revision of them)
Questioning of the very existence of rituals (including Mecca itself)
Questioning the existence of historical personalities (like nabis and rasul).

I disagree with your list brother Wakas. Any person can create such a list and put his current position as the highest level.

Any person who reaches at your 5th level has just moved from one extreme, that is, from gullibility in believing every story to another extreme, that is, gullibility of denying the existence of facts.

Besides, the list could be an accurate depiction of the path of some people, but I think it is an exaggeration. I have come to know thousands of the so-called Quran aloners and those who reach the 4th station are a minority, though a loud one. As for the 5th station, I have seen only a few who have lost their compass together with their common sense.

Your 5th station, which is disorienting, might lead to the 6th station, which is one below the highest questioning the existence of French-speaking purple frogs. As for the highest 7th level ask the jedi jedi

Peace,
Edip

Katara

Your 5th station, which is disorienting, might lead to the 6th station, which is one below the highest questioning the existence of French-speaking purple frogs. As for the highest 7th level ask the jedi jedi

D amused

That could be a possibility,too... more so for extreme philosophers who entered insanity-reality. hehe.

burhan

Interesting post with highly revealing responses although predictable.

The list is an accurate observation although I would add 6. Questioning the Quran.

This may manifest itself (but not limited to) in the following ways.

a. Getting fed up and leaving the Quran/God
b. Changing meaning of words to create suitable answers.
c. Metaphoric/Literal interpretations.

It would be good to grow Wakas' list, I think there are several branches from each step that take us to different destinations.

Whatever stage you are at, if you are still alive, the test isn't over so keep thinking.

Bigmo

I call myself Koranist, cause thats what I am. Islam means different things to different people. Everyone can know what is a Koranist since there is only one Koran. My stages I went through is complicated because when I was younger I was religious and influenced by the Salafi brand of Islam as this was what was preached in the mosque I attended in Florida. Then I stopped being religious for almost 8 years till 9-11 when i started talking with non Muslims in forums. This introduced me to the net world where I met Sheikh Google, the grand mufti of the net. peace

I then started reading about wahhabism. Then I started studying Sunni Islam, then sufi Islam then I came across the website of Herbert Berg where he discussed hadith criticism. The article about Goldziher and Schacht opened up my eyes to new information. I then spent almost 6 months in hadith debates. Then I came to this website. I would also visit Sunni forums where in the end I realized their brand of Islam is something I no longer want to be a part of. I do not consider myself following the same religion and if they chose to call themselves Muslims than they can have that name. I ain't them. This journey started from 9-11 to about one year ago when I started trusting the Koran and realized it covered my back in any debates I had, even with atheist.

So definently the net played a very important role.

phoenix1

Edip your avatar is the funniest thing I have ever seen. Thank you.

I reached the stage 5 of Wakas' (and have gone farther) and I'm sure that I haven't lost my sense of common sense.

Edip_Yuksel

Edip your avatar is the funniest thing I have ever seen. Thank you.

Yes, it is an avatar made by a Turkish artist. She made many more, but I liked this one the most for the following reason it is a ladybug which is also called luckybug by some. It is a living divine sign delivering a numero-literal sign, which bugs the unappreciative. It puts a smile on gardeners' face as volunteer pest control worker. But, I may soon retire it and replace it with a lion.

Glad to hear that you think that you haven't lost your "sense of common sense," but unfortunately, all who lose it never doubt of their possession of it. (I confess that I have lost a portion of it .

Peace,
Edip

Wootah

The problem I have is the concept of submission. I can see in the Koran Aloner the hard work to shrug off so many beliefs and try to reconcile the Islamic faith with your morality/rationality. But lingering there is always the thought of submission, that silent whisper, "Stop fighting. Just give up. Submit or die."

My vote is that we wrestle with God and see who wins. I think it is what God wants. He wants us to struggle with him and force ourselves to get to know him and admit we are bested. There is nothing wrong with this approach and it can in fact encourage the love and respect we seek and God deserves.

As a metaphor look at the world of Tennis and Roger Federer. Many of his opponents recognise his greatness in defeat. After having exerted all their strength against Roger and being bested with apparent ease they are often truly gracious in defeat.

When we submit I fear that we never really get to know how great God is and we never really grow ourselves because we never test and push ourselves.

Edip_Yuksel

peace all,

NB I use the term "Quran Alone" and "Quran Aloner" only to act as a reference, not as an endorsement of the term.

A former member (mq) used to discuss different stages of growth/thinking of a Muslim turning to the "Quran Alone" mindset. I do not agree with it in terms of such a defined manner but it is definitely food for thought and often observed, based on my experience.

Basically, it means the different stages a Muslim who turns to the "Quran Alone" view goes though on their journey of increasing knowledge/discovery, with stage 5 being the highest level

Questioning of sharia laws (but not of rituals and hadith)
Questioning of hadith (but not of rituals)
Questioning of rituals (but not of existence of those rituals, merely a revision of them)
Questioning of the very existence of rituals (including Mecca itself)
Questioning the existence of historical personalities (like nabis and rasul).

You may recognise some of the stages in yourself.

Those who are introduced to Quran alone by witnessing "one of the greatest signs" (7430-37), skip some and follow some additional steps. But again any generalization will have problems and ranking will be controversial. An atheist can easily add a few more steps.

Though I disagree with your step 3 and 4, yet I find the step 5 completely ridiculous. Any person who could reach to such a step, in my opinion, has lost touch with reality and has problem with rudimentary principles of common sense.

Peace,
Edip

ayman

Peace Edip,

Though I disagree with your step 3 and 4, yet I find the step 5 completely ridiculous. Any person who could reach to such a step, in my opinion, has lost touch with reality and has problem with rudimentary principles of common sense.

I think that Step 5 is misplaced and it actually should be Step 1.

5.1. Questioning the existence of historical personalities (like nabis and rasul).

It is questioning the existence of the historical personalities. For example, the historic prophet Mohamed personality is the one given by the books of history of Tabari and Ibn Hisham as well as the numerous Hadith books where he has a beard, wears a short garment, stones monkeys, etc. This "historical" personality never really existed. Obsession with superficial (and false) historic details about the prophets such as how they looked and what they wore, etc. is the typical Sunni attitude (also was the attitude of Dr. Khalifa as evidenced by his dream).

The great reading actually gives us very little information about the prophets and messengers and it is not arranged in any kind of historic way (in other words, in a neat chronology with dates and places). So as far as the great reading is concerned, the historic prophets and messengers don't really matter and it is more about the lessons learned from the situations described in the great reading in no specific historical context.

This is why I think it is the first step. Because first you need to stop idolizing imaginary historical personalities before you can progress.

Peace,

Ayman

ayyub

We are going to see this list on a Quran alone website one day as the "Official 5 Steps" -\

abdalquran

I think there's a misunderstanding with regards to step five. Step five isn't questioning if nabis and rasuls existed. Rather, its questioning if nabis and rasuls are historical personalities. Some people that nabis and rasuls can emerge at any time. If they can't, then the ayat regarding them are obsolete and thats impossible, as far as Quran is concerned.

abdalquran

We are going to see this list on a Quran alone website one day as the "Official 5 Steps" -\

Yeah , or warnings like 'please dont enter here if you're only at step 2' (in case you can't accept the rejection of mecca).