Should we stone A. Wallace?
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Im not tryin hard to convince no one, let whoever will believe me and whoever will dont...
This is a load of hooey! You are the one who started this thread.
What is the purpose if you are not trying to convince everyone of "who" you are?I pasted these things to deliver my Lords messages to whomever it reaches and share my wisdom along with the many other people here
So delivering God's message means you have to "announce your messengership" in every post? More hooey!
I enjoy reading your posts... I think others do too. But seriously man, why don't you just talk to people and quit with the resounding "I'm a messenger of God" bit? Whether you are a messenger or not... who really cares? The message of God is what matters and there are a lot of people here that share the message of God.
Peace,
dotty -
Peace all,
A schizophrenic person may hear auditory voices or even the voices in his mind which he may claim are ordering him to do something and may claim that according to the voice it is from God. These kind of people were said to be insane and the word for insanity used in Quran is "Majnoon" which means literally as someone possessed by a Jinn or a spirit as called in english. They may in some cases get treated by exorcism made by reciting verses of the Quran or may need treatment of a medical psychiatrist.
Here is an article which describes how such people were perceived throughout the history.
"The platonic ideas of a connection between madness and prophecy recur in the ancient Israel. The highly esteemed religious prophets were often regarded as mad because of their odd utterances and deviant clothes and behavior. The same conceptions later appear in the Koran in the Islamic countries. The Koran uses the word majnoon to describe mad persons as well as prophets."
http//www.hubin.org/facts/history/history_schizophrenia_en.html
List of quranic verses that describe how prophet muhammad was perceived as a madman by the unbelievers.
Chapter 15
156 And they said ?O you upon whom the Reminder has been sent down, you are crazy.?
Chapter 37
3736 And they would say ?Shall we leave our gods because of a crazy poet??
Chapter 44
4414 But they turned away from him and said ?Clearly educated, but crazy!?
Chapter 51
5139 But he turned away, in arrogance, and he said ?A magician, or crazy.?
5152 Likewise, when a messenger went to those before them, they said ?A magician, or crazy.?
Chapter 54
549 The people of Noah disbelieved before them. They disbelieved Our servant and said ?He is crazy!? and he was oppressed.
Chapter 68
6851 And those who have rejected almost attack you with their eyes when they hear the reminder, and they say ?He is crazy!?
Chapter 81
8122 And your friend is not crazy.To verify by reason alone whether a man claiming prophet hood is really telling the truth or not is a an issue as if he is disobeyed the nation is to be immidiately destroyed by God as in the past.
214 Say ?My Lord knows what is said in the heavens and in the Earth, and He is the Hearer, the Knower.?
215 They said ?No, these are just bad dreams; no, he made it up; no, he is a poet. So let him bring us a sign like those who were sent before.?
216 None of the towns which We destroyed before them had believed. Will they believe?
217 And We did not send before you except men whom We inspired to. So ask the people of the remembrance if you do not know.
218 And We did not make for them bodies that do not need to eat, nor were they immortal.
219 Then We fulfilled the promise to them, so We saved them and whom We pleased, and We destroyed those who transgressed.
2110 We have sent down to you a Scripture in which is your remembrance. Do you not comprehend?
2111 And how many a town have We destroyed because of its wrong doing, and We established after them a different people?
2112 So it was that when they perceived Our power, they were running from it.
2113 ?Do not run, and come back to that which you were living lavishly in and your homes; so that you will be questioned.?
2114 They said ?Woe to us, we have been wicked!?
2115 So that remained as their cry until We took them all, and they became still.Theological rationality is called Ilmul kalam in arabic and is a very complex issue to discuss so if you do not believe that Quran is a legitimate revelation given through messenger and prophet muhammad to mankind then you can engage in a rational theological debate.
Please read this book "The proof prophethood" to broaden your knowledge about the issue. This books gives in depth perspectives of how to verify a prophet.
http//www.hakikatkitabevi.com.tr/download/english/09-TheProofOfProphethood.pdf
True that messenger can be any bearer of a message but in the case of prophet who is a messenger as well is to deliver the God's revelations to mankind. It is a fact in Quran that although prophets had been killed but no prophet who was a messenger as well had ever been killed.
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Peace "abrar",
You have not yet answered my reply where ive proven to you from Quran that "messenger" is the general term in the phrase "rassolan nabiyyan". ALSO further proof that messenger is the general term are these verses
Messengers(RUSUL) we have told you about before you, and messengers we never told you about. And GOD spoke to Moses directly.
We have sent messengers(rusul) before you - some of them we mentioned to you, and some we did not mention to you. No messenger can produce any miracle without GOD's authorization. Once GOD's judgment is issued, the truth dominates, and the falsifiers are exposed and humiliated.NEVER does GOD make the same claim about prophets(nabiyeen/anbiya) that some prophets have been mentioned whilst others havent been. Coincidence? GOD Bless!
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Should I be stoned for sayin that I am one of Gods messengers???
Would I be wrong for sayin that im a messenger of God???
Was muhammad the last messenger???
What is a messenger??? And who can and cannot be one??? And who said they can or cannot be one???
What does a messenger have to do or make happen for people to believe in him??? Does he have to come wit somethin new, or bring a sign from heaven, or have a luxtryous mansion, or what???
Give me one reason why I am not a messenger of God... Bring proof that I caint be a messenger, then I wont claim to be one anymore...
Bring proof that I am not to be obeyed...When I command you not to serve except God, and I order rigeousness...
And we are not sent except by the command of your Lord... With Him is our present and our future... So serve Him and be paitient in His service... Do you know of anything like Him???
??? jediPeace,
Respectfully.I also say to people not to argue regaridng islam and prophet Muhammad and The Quran and i tell them to do good and ask forgivnes and mercy and i follow The Quran. But i can't say that i'm a messenger of God or His prophet is simple i am sincere and honest and God sees that.
Peace.
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God bears witness. What we say is not really relevant A.wallace. But God advises us not to assert our own righteousness,humility is vital when explaining one's religion. When you put yourself on a pedestal before people it causes people to automatically shut down. People are just as skeptical as they were in the time of Muhammad, and Muhammad had the Qur'an! We are all here now with the Qur'an in our hands, we have a duty to convey the message as well and to live by it, so in part we are akin to messengers. But we are not Messengers of God with a capital M, like it is a magnanimous title of which we are entitled to extra blessings from God.
When you call yourself a messenger of God. What difference does it make to what you are saying? Does it make your words any more truthful, powerful or valid in the hearts of people? No it is the message alone that does this.
Peace
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When you call yourself a messenger of God. What difference does it make to what you are saying? Does it make your words any more truthful, powerful or valid in the hearts of people? No it is the message alone that does this.
Peace
When the other messengers called theirself a messenger of God. What difference did it make to what they were saying> Did it make their words more truthful, powerful or valid in the heqarts of the people?
Peace,
I do not understand the subject of this thread.
I for one do not think AW is stoned, just misguided.
If you dont understand the subject then how can you say im misguided, and how am I? Pleace enlighten me by my Lords leave... Who said anything about me bein stoned???
Peace,
Respectfully.I also say to people not to argue regaridng islam and prophet Muhammad and The Quran and i tell them to do good and ask forgivnes and mercy and i follow The Quran. But i can't say that i'm a messenger of God or His prophet is simple i am sincere and honest and God sees that.
Peace.
Peace,
That is you, if you feel u caint say u the messenger of God then thats you and who u are and how you feel...
This is me, my life, and who I am... Not everybody like me...Not everybody is you...not everybody can be me...
Peace, and it is good that you advacate ritiousness. Keep it up...fa real yo...
This is a load of hooey! You are the one who started this thread.
What is the purpose if you are not trying to convince everyone of "who" you are?So delivering God's message means you have to "announce your messengership" in every post? More hooey!
I enjoy reading your posts... I think others do too. But seriously man, why don't you just talk to people and quit with the resounding "I'm a messenger of God" bit? Whether you are a messenger or not... who really cares? The message of God is what matters and there are a lot of people here that share the message of God.
Peace,
dottyhmm
Peace all,
A schizophrenic person may hear auditory voices or even the voices in his mind which he may claim are ordering him to do something and may claim that according to the voice it is from God. These kind of people were said to be insane and the word for insanity used in Quran is "Majnoon" which means literally as someone possessed by a Jinn or a spirit as called in english. They may in some cases get treated by exorcism made by reciting verses of the Quran or may need treatment of a medical psychiatrist.
Here is an article which describes how such people were perceived throughout the history.
"The platonic ideas of a connection between madness and prophecy recur in the ancient Israel. The highly esteemed religious prophets were often regarded as mad because of their odd utterances and deviant clothes and behavior. The same conceptions later appear in the Koran in the Islamic countries. The Koran uses the word majnoon to describe mad persons as well as prophets."
http//www.hubin.org/facts/history/history_schizophrenia_en.html
List of quranic verses that describe how prophet muhammad was perceived as a madman by the unbelievers.
Chapter 15
156 And they said O you upon whom the Reminder has been sent down, you are crazy.
Chapter 37
3736 And they would say Shall we leave our gods because of a crazy poet?
Chapter 44
4414 But they turned away from him and said Clearly educated, but crazy!
Chapter 51
5139 But he turned away, in arrogance, and he said A magician, or crazy.
5152 Likewise, when a messenger went to those before them, they said A magician, or crazy.
Chapter 54
549 The people of Noah disbelieved before them. They disbelieved Our servant and said He is crazy! and he was oppressed.
Chapter 68
6851 And those who have rejected almost attack you with their eyes when they hear the reminder, and they say He is crazy!
Chapter 81
8122 And your friend is not crazy.To verify by reason alone whether a man claiming prophet hood is really telling the truth or not is a an issue as if he is disobeyed the nation is to be immidiately destroyed by God as in the past.
214 Say My Lord knows what is said in the heavens and in the Earth, and He is the Hearer, the Knower.
215 They said No, these are just bad dreams; no, he made it up; no, he is a poet. So let him bring us a sign like those who were sent before.
216 None of the towns which We destroyed before them had believed. Will they believe?
217 And We did not send before you except men whom We inspired to. So ask the people of the remembrance if you do not know.
218 And We did not make for them bodies that do not need to eat, nor were they immortal.
219 Then We fulfilled the promise to them, so We saved them and whom We pleased, and We destroyed those who transgressed.
2110 We have sent down to you a Scripture in which is your remembrance. Do you not comprehend?
2111 And how many a town have We destroyed because of its wrong doing, and We established after them a different people?
2112 So it was that when they perceived Our power, they were running from it.
2113 Do not run, and come back to that which you were living lavishly in and your homes; so that you will be questioned.
2114 They said Woe to us, we have been wicked!
2115 So that remained as their cry until We took them all, and they became still.Theological rationality is called Ilmul kalam in arabic and is a very complex issue to discuss so if you do not believe that Quran is a legitimate revelation given through messenger and prophet muhammad to mankind then you can engage in a rational theological debate.
Please read this book "The proof prophethood" to broaden your knowledge about the issue. This books gives in depth perspectives of how to verify a prophet.
http//www.hakikatkitabevi.com.tr/download/english/09-TheProofOfProphethood.pdf
True that messenger can be any bearer of a message but in the case of prophet who is a messenger as well is to deliver the God's revelations to mankind. It is a fact in Quran that although prophets had been killed but no prophet who was a messenger as well had ever been killed.
jedi
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Should I be stoned for sayin that I am one of Gods messengers???
Would I be wrong for sayin that im a messenger of God???
Was muhammad the last messenger???
What is a messenger??? And who can and cannot be one??? And who said they can or cannot be one???
What does a messenger have to do or make happen for people to believe in him??? Does he have to come wit somethin new, or bring a sign from heaven, or have a luxtryous mansion, or what???
Give me one reason why I am not a messenger of God... Bring proof that I caint be a messenger, then I wont claim to be one anymore...
Bring proof that I am not to be obeyed...When I command you not to serve except God, and I order rigeousness...
And we are not sent except by the command of your Lord... With Him is our present and our future... So serve Him and be paitient in His service... Do you know of anything like Him???
??? jedi
I think A Wallace should definitely be stoned for creating this topic, because I bet being dead is better than having no life.
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Peace jonny_k,
You have not yet answered my reply where ive proven to you from Quran that "messenger" is the general term in the phrase "rassolan nabiyyan". ALSO further proof that messenger is the general term are these verses
Messengers(RUSUL) we have told you about before you, and messengers we never told you about. And GOD spoke to Moses directly.
We have sent messengers(rusul) before you - some of them we mentioned to you, and some we did not mention to you. No messenger can produce any miracle without GOD's authorization. Once GOD's judgment is issued, the truth dominates, and the falsifiers are exposed and humiliated.NEVER does GOD make the same claim about prophets(nabiyeen/anbiya) that some prophets have been mentioned whilst others havent been. Coincidence? GOD Bless!
As I explained earlier that a messenger of God, if he is a human is also a prophet as well. The basic function of the prophet is to preach God's message as various prophets were sent to Jews between Moses and Jesus but some were killed as mentioned in Quran. The messenger not only preaches God's message but also delivers a scripture and a system of laws to the people.Moreover no messenger mentioned in Quran had ever been killed. The messengers of God carry a message universal to the whole world at their respective times. Prophets may preach only locally who are not messengers meaning that they do not carry a universal message for all people in the form of a scripture . When a messenger is also a prophet then you cannot claim that Quran nowhere says that some prophets are not mentioned.
Lane clearly mentions that every messenger is also a prophet but not very prophet can be a messenger.
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume8/00000007.pdf
This is where God mentions prophets who are in general terms we do not know who they were or their names.
384 Say ?We believe in God and what was sent down to us and what was sent down to Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the Patriarchs, and what was given to Moses and Jesus and the prophets from their Lord. We do not make any distinction between them, and to Him we submit.?
Below is how prophet hood and messengers are being mentioned.
5725 We have sent Our messengers with clear proofs, and We sent down with them the Scripture and the balance, so that the people may uphold justice. And We sent down the iron, wherein there is great strength, and many benefits for the people. So that God would distinguish those who would support Him and His messengers on faith. God is Powerful, Noble.
5726 And We had sent Noah and Abraham, and We placed in their progeny the prophethood and the Scripture. Some of them were guided, while many were wicked.
5727 Then We sent in their tracks Our messengers. We sent Jesus the son of Mary, and We gave him the Injeel, and We ordained in the hearts of his followers kindness and mercy. But they invented Monasticism which We never decreed for them. They wanted to please God, but they did not observe it the way it should have been observed. Consequently, We gave those who believed among them their recompense, while many of them were wicked.Prophet hood and messengers are being distinguished.
689 Those to whom We have given the Scripture, and the law, and the prophethood, if they reject it, then We will entrust it to a people who will not reject it.
Giving of the scripture and the law signifies a messenger who is also a prophet. If there is no difference so why would God mention them in verses in such a way.
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Peace "abrar",
Peace jonny_k,
As I explained earlier that a messenger of God, if he is a human is also a prophet as well.
JK- You have merely given some "scholarly" interpretation WHICH I PROVED FROM QURAN cannot be true. BUT the question is how can any Prophet who receives news from GOD just keep it for himself and not deliver it to the people? Doesnt make sense so every Prophet has to be a messenger.
The basic function of the prophet is to preach God's message as various prophets were sent to Jews between Moses and Jesus but some were killed as mentioned in Quran. The messenger not only preaches God's message but also delivers a scripture and a system of laws to the people.Moreover no messenger mentioned in Quran had ever been killed. The messengers of God carry a message universal to the whole world at their respective times. Prophets may preach only locally who are not messengers meaning that they do not carry a universal message for all people in the form of a scripture . When a messenger is also a prophet then you cannot claim that Quran nowhere says that some prophets are not mentioned.
JK- A messenger whose not a Prophet CONFIRMS previous scriptures. See here
GOD took a covenant from the prophets, saying, "I will give you the scripture and wisdom. Afterwards, a messenger will come to confirm all existing scriptures. You shall believe in him and support him." He said, "Do you agree with this, and pledge to fulfill this covenant?" They said, "We agree." He said, "You have thus borne witness, and I bear witness along with you."Now look here GOD connects Prophethood with scripture
Never would a human being whom GOD blessed with the scripture and PROPHETHOOD say to the people, "Idolize me beside GOD." Instead, (he would say), "Devote yourselves absolutely to your Lord alone," according to the scripture you preach and the teachings you learn.Those were the ones to whom we have given the scripture, wisdom, and PROPHETHOOD. If these people disbelieve, we will substitute others in their place, and the new people will not be disbelievers.
We have given the Children of Israel the scripture, wisdom, and PROPHETHOOD, and provided them with good provisions; we bestowed upon them more blessings than any other people.
We sent Noah and Abraham, and we granted their descendants PROPHETHOOD and the scripture. Some of them were guided, while many were wicked.
ALSO hud, saleh and shuaib have been termed "messengers" in the Quran and each of them preached only a LOCAL message for their people so that statement of your is incorrect as well.
Lastly your last statement shows you did not understand my point. IT IS YOU WHO CLAIM that every Prophet is not a messenger. So if you accept that then you should wonder why did GOD not use the common term "nabi" in the above verses i quoted earlier. Get my point?
Lane clearly mentions that every messenger is also a prophet but not very prophet can be a messenger.
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume8/00000007.pdf
JK- I dont care what Lane mentions when the Quran's statements clearly prove otherwise as ive shown. This is a sectarian concept and lane although it contains many neutral meanings it does at times also mention the sectarian understandings.
This is where God mentions prophets who are in general terms we do not know who they were or their names.
384 Say ?We believe in God and what was sent down to us and what was sent down to Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the Patriarchs, and what was given to Moses and Jesus and the prophets from their Lord. We do not make any distinction between them, and to Him we submit.?
JK- This verse doesnt say that those other Prophets are not mentioned in the Quran. Could be that those in other verses of the Quran are meant. Thus this statement is not equal to the ones i quoted.
Below is how prophet hood and messengers are being mentioned.
5725 We have sent Our messengers with clear proofs, and We sent down with them the Scripture and the balance, so that the people may uphold justice. And We sent down the iron, wherein there is great strength, and many benefits for the people. So that God would distinguish those who would support Him and His messengers on faith. God is Powerful, Noble.
5726 And We had sent Noah and Abraham, and We placed in their progeny the prophethood and the Scripture. Some of them were guided, while many were wicked.
5727 Then We sent in their tracks Our messengers. We sent Jesus the son of Mary, and We gave him the Injeel, and We ordained in the hearts of his followers kindness and mercy. But they invented Monasticism which We never decreed for them. They wanted to please God, but they did not observe it the way it should have been observed. Consequently, We gave those who believed among them their recompense, while many of them were wicked.Prophet hood and messengers are being distinguished.
689 Those to whom We have given the Scripture, and the law, and the prophethood, if they reject it, then We will entrust it to a people who will not reject it.
Giving of the scripture and the law signifies a messenger who is also a prophet. If there is no difference so why would God mention them in verses in such a way.
JK- You showed verses proving that scripture is associated with prophethood. I agree messenger Prophets bring news in form of Scripture and confirm it too whilst messengers who are not prophets merely confirm an existing scripture as made clear per 381. GOD Bless!
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Peace Jonny_k,
JK- I dont care what Lane mentions when the Quran's statements clearly prove otherwise as ive shown. This is a sectarian concept and lane although it contains many neutral meanings it does at times also mention the sectarian understandings.
There is no any hadith that I have ever heard that indicates the difference between prophets and messengers. Please quote me one. All commentators have derived all their understanding from the Quran.
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Peace "abrar",
Peace Jonny_k,
There is no any hadith that I have ever heard that indicates the difference between prophets and messengers. Please quote me one. All commentators have derived all their understanding from the Quran.
JK- Oh really? Then please explain to me why the Quran ALWAYS uses these terms in the following manner "BASHARAN rassoolan", bashar being common, "SIDDIQAN nabiyyan", siddiq being common and "RASSOLAN nabbiyan", where according to the previous two RASOOL and not nabi must be common. You cannot deny this clear order arranaged by GOD plus all the other verses i used to prove that a messenger need not be a prophet. GOD Bless!
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Peace "abrar",
JK- Oh really? Then please explain to me why the Quran ALWAYS uses these terms in the following manner "BASHARAN rassoolan", bashar being common, "SIDDIQAN nabiyyan", siddiq being common and "RASSOLAN nabbiyan", where according to the previous two RASOOL and not nabi must be common. You cannot deny this clear order arranaged by GOD plus all the other verses i used to prove that a messenger need not be a prophet. GOD Bless!
Im with Jonny K on this.
456These are Gods revelations that We recite to you with truth. So, in which narration after God and His revelations do they believe?
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Peace Jonny_k,
JK- Oh really? Then please explain to me why the Quran ALWAYS uses these terms in the following manner "BASHARAN rassoolan", bashar being common, "SIDDIQAN nabiyyan", siddiq being common and "RASSOLAN nabbiyan", where according to the previous two RASOOL and not nabi must be common. You cannot deny this clear order arranaged by GOD plus all the other verses i used to prove that a messenger need not be a prophet. GOD Bless!
Bashar can be any human. But in this case he is a CHOSEN HUMAN who is not like other humans as he has an established communication with God which a normal human cannot aspire to achieve. A normal human can pray but God does not communicate directly or indirectly with him but in the case of CHOSEN HUMAN God answers by various means.
Similarly a messenger could be any message bearer but in this case a messenger is special as he delivers God's message which God has communicated to him. A prophet could be anyone foretelling future events but in this case he is the one who foretells God's plan for the future of mankind which God has told him by communication. -
Peace "abrar",
Peace Jonny_k,
Bashar can be any human. But in this case he is a CHOSEN HUMAN who is not like other humans as he has an established communication with God which a normal human cannot aspire to achieve. A normal human can pray but God does not communicate directly or indirectly with him but in the case of CHOSEN HUMAN God answers by various means.
Similarly a messenger could be any message bearer but in this case a messenger is special as he delivers God's message which God has communicated to him. A prophet could be anyone foretelling future events but in this case he is the one who foretells God's plan for the future of mankind which God has told him by communication.JK- The phrases make clear which term, the first or second in the order, is the common of the TWO. Like in "basharan rasoolan" the term "bashar" is common which is the first. In "siddiqan nabiyyan" the term "siddiq" is common as it is inclusive of prophets and is also the first. Similar is the case with "rasoolan nabiyyan" where "rasool" is COMMON. A messenger of GOD per 381 need not be a prophet as well since he could just be confirming a PREVIOUSLY EXISTING SCRIPTURE and not necessarily deliver a new one. GOD Bless!
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peace to all
i'd like to know what message mr. wallace is bringing.
I bring you the proofs.
And I bring you the proofs of salat ( the daily prayers), and the daily readings, and the daily teachings. I manefest the communion.
And I bring my people out of darkness into the light by their Lords leave.
And I deliver to you my Lords messages.
I invite to God in full disclousure, myself and whomever follows me. And Glory be to God. And I am not of those who set up partners.
Peace,
