Who are the people of the book?
-
Peace again "arnab",
So, now you call following the Torah delusional? I hope you are absolutely certain with your statement. Allah knows all. There are many many verses directing us to follow the Torah.
JK- Im not calling the real Torah delusion. Im calling the OT delusional which some MERELY CLAIM to be the "Torah".
Are you sure its not YOUR mistake.... that you are arguing about something which you have no knowledge?
Let me give you an example of how you are actually mirroring and describing your SELF
I HAVE read the Torah in HEBREW. I KNOW what I read. I am telling you that it is the TORAH spoken of in the QURAN. Based on reading, analyzing, comparing and intellect. This is based on KNOWLEDGE that I acquired by studying and searching for myself.
JK- Can one not write a book in hebrew and name it "torah"? How can you say that the verses i quoted whether in hebrew or not are anything similar to the Quran. THEYR NOT. Ofcourse theres stuff IN BETWEEN which might be similar to the Quran just like some hadith might be similar to the Quran. Does that automatically make the whole book into the true Torah? What nonsense!
YOU on the other hand, have NEVER read the Torah in its original language, have never spent long hours laboring over learning Hebrew, comparing scripture and studying and YOU are telling me that it is not the Torah based only on what others have told you, NOT from using your own BRAIN and INTELLECT.
So, now tell me which one of us is just arbitrarily following what others tell them? hmm
JK- As i said your most welcome to explain the discrepancy in translation, if any, of the verses i bring up. We agreed stoning and death penalty for blasphemy is there in the OT. I say if it is then this is enough to show that that could NOT have been GOD's Word. A god who commands such is not a true god and by claiming that he is your blaspheming against the true GOD.
- Yes, there are many hadiths that are similiar to the Torah,
there are many hadiths also that are similiar to the Injeel and....sarcastic gasp....THE QURAN!
What does that matter? It doesn't.
JK- No it doesnt BUT the fact that many statements in the OT are also in the hadith WHILST NOT MENTIONED IN THE QURAN that is very telling. The Quran is the reminder. It already reminds of all the true statements. It confirms the true Torah, Injeel and all other scriptures of GOD which have been lost and remain undiscovered till today.
- It is obvious that you don't want to examine this intellectually you just want to be assured that you are right. You will be satisfied with nothing less.
JK- I want to examine it intellectually and i already did. I asked you many times how can GOD command such nonsense already.
- The Torah is not a competition to the Quran.
JK- No the true Torah is NOT but the false "torah" and the OT clearly are. Theyr in contradiction with all reality that weve observed.
Actually your arguments are very similiar to discussing the Quran with a non-muslim.
Most of us have come across non-Muslims who bring up the cutting off of hands for theft, that women should be covered from head to toe, ....the list goes on and on.JK- The Quran does NOT say to cut off the hand. It says to CUT the hand and gives an example of the women whilst admiring Yusuf CUT(same word) their hands. Did they cut off their entire hands? INTERESTING is also the fact that this CUTTING of hands by the women who admired Joseph is NOT mentioned in the Bible. As for women being covered from head to toe we both know that this stuff is derived from hadith and the Bible. Look at the nuns.
When a non-muslim approaches a Muslim in the mind set that is not able to comprehend the Quran because they are too caught up in mis-conceptions, lack of knowledge of Arabic, and their own biases, there is nothing that can be discussed on an intellectual level.
JK- MAN didnt you admit the Bible does mention GOD commanding to stone, burn blasphemers/aduleters. Forget the forgivenss part. ARE THESE COMMANDMENTS THERE OR NOT? If they are that is enough to consider the book satanic. Period! GOD Bless!
- Yes, there are many hadiths that are similiar to the Torah,
-
Actually your arguments are very similiar to discussing the Quran with a non-muslim.
Most of us have come across non-Muslims who bring up the cutting off of hands for theft, that women should be covered from head to toe, ....the list goes on and on.When a non-muslim approaches a Muslim in the mind set that is not able to comprehend the Quran because they are too caught up in mis-conceptions, lack of knowledge of Arabic, and their own biases, there is nothing that can be discussed on an intellectual level.
Same here, jonny_k. You are arguing about which you have no knowledge of.
Salam,
ArnabSalaam,
handshake
-
Peace "farida",
Salaam,
handshake
JK- So you agree that the current OT in original hebrew is what constitutes the true Torah? And with that you also agree that GOD did command at one time or another the stoning/burning of adulterers and blasphemers? GOD Bless!
-
JK- The Quran does NOT say to cut off the hand. It says to CUT the hand and gives an example of the women whilst admiring Yusuf CUT(same word) their hands. Did they cut off their entire hands? INTERESTING is also the fact that this CUTTING of hands by the women who admired Joseph is NOT mentioned in the Bible. As for women being covered from head to toe we both know that this stuff is derived from hadith and the Bible. Look at the nuns.
jonny_k those examples were given as to what people MISCONCEIVE.
I was not stating them as fact. Don't be ridiculous.
As for the rest of the ramblings in your post.....
Again, you are confused and in your confusion you misunderstand.
There's nothing more I can say to you.
You've already stated several times that when the Quran tells you "YOU FOLLOW NO GOOD UNTIL YOU UPHOLD THE TORAH AND INJEEL."
that you disbelieve it's possible since you claim that they are not with us today.Dually noted.
Salam.
-
Peace "arnab",
jonny_k those examples were given as to what people MISCONCEIVE.
I was not stating them as fact. Don't be ridiculous.
As for the rest of the ramblings in your post.....
Again, you are confused and in your confusion you misunderstand.
There's nothing more I can say to you.
JK- Answer me one thing. DO YOU BELIEVE THAT GOD ONCE COMMANDED THAT BLASPHEMERS AND ADULTERERS SHOULD BE BURNT AND/OR STONED TO DEATH? Yes or no?
You've already stated several times that when the Quran tells you "YOU FOLLOW NO GOOD UNTIL YOU UPHOLD THE TORAH AND INJEEL."
that you disbelieve it's possible since you claim that they are not with us today.Dually noted.
Salam.
JK- You already technically uphold the true Torah and Injeel BY UPHOLDING THE QURAN ALONE. THE QURAN IS THE REMINDER WHICH CONTAINS THESE WITHIN IT.
O you who received the scripture, you shall believe in what we reveal herein, confirming what you have, before we banish certain faces to exile, or condemn them as we condemned those who desecrated the Sabbath. GOD's command is done.
This is a revelation from the Lord of the universe.
The Honest Spirit (Gabriel) came down with it.
To reveal it into your heart, that you may be one of the warners.
In a clear Arabic tongue.
It is in the books of previous generations.
Thus the basic message of the Quran has always been present in the past books and thus the Quran is sufficient and we do not need to speculate about the Torah and Injeel. GOD Bless! -
Salaam johnny_k. The ruh al ameen/faithful spirit commands me to say to you the denier, then reminds me of Allahs promise to you the kafir/rejecter.
my Lord is not uneasy because of you if you call not on him but you have indeed denied and soon will come the inevitable. This is a hukum to me from the ruh 2577 Say my Lord is not uneasy because of you if you call not on him but you have indeed denied and soon will come the inevitable.
Allah says to me to travel through the earth and see what was the end of those who denied truth. This is a hukum to me from Allah 611 Say travel through the earth and see what was the end of those who denied truth.
The ruh says Allah will raise you the kafir/rejecter up so that he can manifest to you the truth of that wherein you differed, and that you may realize that you had surrendered to falsehood. This is an explanation from the ruh 1639 They must be raised in order that he may manifest to them the truth of that wherein they differ, and that the kafir may realise that they had indeed surrendered to falsehood.
Allah says he has promised hypocrites men and women and kafir rejecters of the faith the like you the fire of jahannum theirein shall you live for you is the curse of Allah and an eduring punishment. This is the previous promise of Allah repeated by the rooh 968 Allah promises hypocrite men and hypocrite women and rejecters/kafir fire of jahannum in it they shall live for them is Allah's curse and an enduring destruction.
What kind of evil has possessed your mind that you deny the words of Allah and earn the title of kafir upon whom is Allah's curse and a promise of the fire of jahannum and destruction?
Allah is the best of those who keeps his promises.
-
Salaam johnny_k. The ruh al ameen/faithful spirit commands me to say to you the denier, then reminds me of Allahs promise to you the kafir/rejecter.
my Lord is not uneasy because of you if you call not on him but you have indeed denied and soon will come the inevitable. This is a hukum to me from the ruh 2577 Say my Lord is not uneasy because of you if you call not on him but you have indeed denied and soon will come the inevitable.
Allah says to me to travel through the earth and see what was the end of those who denied truth. This is a hukum to me from Allah 611 Say travel through the earth and see what was the end of those who denied truth.
The ruh says Allah will raise you the kafir/rejecter up so that he can manifest to you the truth of that wherein you differed, and that you may realize that you had surrendered to falsehood. This is an explanation from the ruh 1639 They must be raised in order that he may manifest to them the truth of that wherein they differ, and that the kafir may realise that they had indeed surrendered to falsehood.
Allah says he has promised hypocrites men and women and kafir rejecters of the faith the like you the fire of jahannum theirein shall you live for you is the curse of Allah and an eduring punishment. This is the previous promise of Allah repeated by the rooh 968 Allah promises hypocrite men and hypocrite women and rejecters/kafir fire of jahannum in it they shall live for them is Allah's curse and an enduring destruction.
What kind of evil has possessed your mind that you deny the words of Allah and earn the title of kafir upon whom is Allah's curse and a promise of the fire of jahannum and destruction?
Allah is the best of those who keeps his promises.
Salaam Al Araf
handshake
God bless all those who uphold the truth. -
Salaam johnny_k. The ruh al ameen/faithful spirit commands me to say to you the denier, then reminds me of Allahs promise to you the kafir/rejecter.
my Lord is not uneasy because of you if you call not on him but you have indeed denied and soon will come the inevitable. This is a hukum to me from the ruh 2577 Say my Lord is not uneasy because of you if you call not on him but you have indeed denied and soon will come the inevitable.
Allah says to me to travel through the earth and see what was the end of those who denied truth. This is a hukum to me from Allah 611 Say travel through the earth and see what was the end of those who denied truth.
The ruh says Allah will raise you the kafir/rejecter up so that he can manifest to you the truth of that wherein you differed, and that you may realize that you had surrendered to falsehood. This is an explanation from the ruh 1639 They must be raised in order that he may manifest to them the truth of that wherein they differ, and that the kafir may realise that they had indeed surrendered to falsehood.
Allah says he has promised hypocrites men and women and kafir rejecters of the faith the like you the fire of jahannum theirein shall you live for you is the curse of Allah and an eduring punishment. This is the previous promise of Allah repeated by the rooh 968 Allah promises hypocrite men and hypocrite women and rejecters/kafir fire of jahannum in it they shall live for them is Allah's curse and an enduring destruction.
What kind of evil has possessed your mind that you deny the words of Allah and earn the title of kafir upon whom is Allah's curse and a promise of the fire of jahannum and destruction?
Allah is the best of those who keeps his promises.
Salam,
Well done Al Araf, and an excellent reminder.
Salam,
Arnab -
Peace "al araf",
Salaam johnny_k. The ruh al ameen/faithful spirit commands me to say to you the denier, then reminds me of Allahs promise to you the kafir/rejecter.
my Lord is not uneasy because of you if you call not on him but you have indeed denied and soon will come the inevitable. This is a hukum to me from the ruh 2577 Say my Lord is not uneasy because of you if you call not on him but you have indeed denied and soon will come the inevitable.
Allah says to me to travel through the earth and see what was the end of those who denied truth. This is a hukum to me from Allah 611 Say travel through the earth and see what was the end of those who denied truth.
The ruh says Allah will raise you the kafir/rejecter up so that he can manifest to you the truth of that wherein you differed, and that you may realize that you had surrendered to falsehood. This is an explanation from the ruh 1639 They must be raised in order that he may manifest to them the truth of that wherein they differ, and that the kafir may realise that they had indeed surrendered to falsehood.
Allah says he has promised hypocrites men and women and kafir rejecters of the faith the like you the fire of jahannum theirein shall you live for you is the curse of Allah and an eduring punishment. This is the previous promise of Allah repeated by the rooh 968 Allah promises hypocrite men and hypocrite women and rejecters/kafir fire of jahannum in it they shall live for them is Allah's curse and an enduring destruction.
What kind of evil has possessed your mind that you deny the words of Allah and earn the title of kafir upon whom is Allah's curse and a promise of the fire of jahannum and destruction?
Allah is the best of those who keeps his promises.
JK- Alright Mr. Araf instead of throwing verses at me which I dont see apply to me at all , BE SPECIFIC and tell me how have i rejected anything. From many of your posts i can see that you are no different than other religious zealots who believe they know it all better. IMHO you are the biggest kaafir i came across here lately because you are arrogant. GOD Bless!
-
Peace "al araf",
JK- Alright Mr. Araf instead of throwing verses at me which I dont see apply to me at all , BE SPECIFIC and tell me how have i rejected anything. From many of your posts i can see that you are no different than other religious zealots who believe they know it all better. IMHO you are the biggest kaafir i came across here lately because you are arrogant. GOD Bless!
rotfl
Playing kaafir game! bravo
-
Peace "rasulhamsa",
rotfl
Playing kaafir game! bravo
JK- Well he called me "rejector" or "kaafir" first
Salaam johnny_k. The ruh al ameen/faithful spirit commands me to say to you the denier, then reminds me of Allahs promise to you the kafir/rejecter.
Hence i retaliated. Im not gonna just sit here and take baseless attacks. GOD Bless!
-
Peace "Arnab",
And Mr. Arnab neiher did you address my qs till now. Just bashing me like that wont do any good. People will see through your diversion tactics. I asked you a clear question and you didnt answer. GOD Bless!Salam jonny_k,
I've already answered your questions. That you fail to acknowledge/see the answers is not my responsibility.
You obviously have your mind made up.
What do you hope to gain? I have my mind made up to.
So, why continue the conversation? For the sake of your argumentative appetite?
No, thank you.
Salam,
Arnab -
Peace "Arnab",
Salam jonny_k,
I've already answered your questions. That you fail to acknowledge/see the answers is not my responsibility.
You obviously have your mind made up.
What do you hope to gain? I have my mind made up to.
So, why continue the conversation? For the sake of your argumentative appetite?
No, thank you.
Salam,
ArnabJK- Show me where youve answered the following question
"Do you, Arnab, believe that GOD has ever commanded blasphemers/adulterers to be stoned to death and/or burned"? GOD Bless! -
Peace "Arnab",
JK- Show me where youve answered the following question
"Do you, Arnab, believe that GOD has ever commanded blasphemers/adulterers to be stoned to death and/or burned"? GOD Bless!Salam jonny_k,
I?ve repeatedly told you that I believe in ALL revelations of ALLAH. What more do you need?
I've also repeatedly told you that there are outermost limits listed in the Torah and the Quran.
It is ridiculous that you insist on being shocked and appalled by the verses on punishment in the Torah but easliy accept the punishment verses in the Quran.
Salam,
Arnab -
Peace "arnab",
Salam jonny_k,
I?ve repeatedly told you that I believe in ALL revelations of ALLAH. What more do you need?
JK- So then say YES i beleive GOD once commanded stoning to death and burning for adulterers and/or blasphemers. Dont shy away say it then. The fact that you wont shows you still have some good in you and dont want to accept this as ever coming from GOD.
I've also repeatedly told you that there are outermost limits listed in the Torah and the Quran.
JK- It doesnt matter whether this punishment is outer most or not. EVen if GOD explicitly said "the most you can do is stone a blasphemer to death" I would never have beliwved that GOD said such FOR IT IS NONSENSE. These very suggestions are of a simplistic mind NOT of a Divine Being.
It is ridiculous that you insist on being shocked and appalled by the verses on punishment in the Torah but easliy accept the punishment verses in the Quran.
Salam,
ArnabJK- Where do the punishment verses in the Quran say that blasphemers, WHICH IS PURE IDEOLOGY, should be killed? Dont you see the difference between allowing a victim to kill a murderer as a max punishment or allowing a victim to max give the offender a blow as harsh as he did initially and allowing someone to kill a blasphemer? If you dont im ready to detail the difference to you. GOD Bless!
-
Peace "arnab",
JK- So then say YES i beleive GOD once commanded stoning to death and burning for adulterers and/or blasphemers. Dont shy away say it then.
why don't you just hand out scripts to people. That way they can say things exactly the way you want them to ..... rotfl
except I would never do it because I obey God not man.
I'm done talking to you on this subject jonny_k.
Salam,
Arnab -
Peace "arnab",
why don't you just hand out scripts to people. That way they can say things exactly the way you want them to ..... rotfl
except I would never do it because I obey God not man.
I'm done talking to you on this subject jonny_k.
Salam,
ArnabJK- See, SEE "arnab" you cannot answer my question and everyone can see it. Your just choosing to hold on to parts of the OT that pleases you whilst you remain silent on the vile stuff which is clearly in there. I call this hypocrisy and it gives the religious elite a dangerous tool to justify their cruelty. It is comparable to the common people amongst the Nazis who didnt actually agree with their acts but did not openly refute their dogma and ahnce allowed them to go on. GOD Bless!
-
Peace "arnab",
JK- See, SEE "arnab" you cannot answer my question and everyone can see it. Your just choosing to hold on to parts of the OT that pleases you whilst you remain silent on the vile stuff which is clearly in there. I call this hypocrisy and it gives the religious elite a dangerous tool to justify their cruelty. It is comparable to the common people amongst the Nazis who didnt actually agree with their acts but did not openly refute their dogma and ahnce allowed them to go on. GOD Bless!
(
"Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (Scriptures); in the Law and the Torah and Gospel; for he commands them what is just and forbids them what is evil he allows them as lawful what is good (and pure) and prohibits them from what is bad (and impure); He releases them from their heavy burdens (that were upon them before) and from the yokes that are upon them. So it is those who believe in him honour, him, help him, and follow the Light which is sent down with him it is they who will prosper." (7-157)Thus, the Quran came to release (change) what were harsh punshment or duties. So, why don't you understand that the Torah containe tough punshment that were changed in Quran.
Example, (Chapter 4)( ( ( (
Also (prohibited are) women already married, except those whom your right hands possess. thus hath Allah ordained (prohibitions) against you except for these, all others are lawful, provided ye seek (them in marriage) with gifts from your property, desiring chastity, not lust. Seeing that ye derive benefit from them give them their dowers (at least) as prescribed; but if, after a dower is prescribed, ye agree mutually (to vary it) there is no blame on you, and Allah is All-Knowing All-Wise. (24) If any of you have not the means wherewith to wed free believing women, they may wed believing girls from among those whom your right hands possess and Allah hath full knowledge about your Faith. Ye are one from another wed them with the leave of their owners, and give them their dowers, according to what is reasonable they should be chaste not lustful nor taking paramours when they are taken in wedlock, if they fall into shame, their punishment is half that for free women. This (permission) is for those among you who fear sin; but it is better for you that ye practise self-restraint And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. (25) Allah doth wish to make clear to you and to guide you into the ways of those before you; and (He doth wish to) turn to you (in Mercy) and Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise. (26) Allah doth wish to turn to you, but the wish of those who follow their lusts is that ye should turn away (from Him), far, far away. (27) Allah doth wish to lighten your (difficulties) for man was created weak. (4-2 -
Peace "belalhammad",
This is a silly understanding of that verse. Releasing them from the burdens could 1) refer to the burdens which theyve created for themselves and forgetting the true system ordained by GOD 2) GOD indeed prohibited some animals and specific food for the Jews which He then relieved them from. heres the verse which supports that
For those who are Jewish we prohibited animals with undivided hoofs; and of the cattle and sheep we prohibited the fat, except that which is carried on their backs, or in the viscera, or mixed with bones. That was a retribution for their transgressions, and we are truthful.NEVER could GOD have commanded stoning for blasphemers BECAUSE THE LAW IS IRRATIONAL. It can lead believers to kill each other since asa a party differs on certain interpretations, which is inevitable in the long run, the other could potentially claim the other as blasphemers and then the result is what is apparent in the "islamic" world today i.e. sunni and shia and even differnet sunnis killing each other. Attributing such nonsense to GOD is in itself blasphemy. GOD Bless!