Don't stop fighting until the religion of all is Islam?

Tony

8 39. And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is all for Allah. But if they cease, then lo! Allah is Seer of what they do. -Pickthall

8 39. And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere; but if they cease, verily Allah doth see all that they do. -Ali

8 39. And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah; but if they desist, then surely Allah sees what they do. -Shakir

Islam haters interpret this as not to stop fighting disbelievers until everyone converts to Islam.

How do we answer them?

unknownuser

Peace be upon you Tony,

Thank you for bringing up an important issue.

My understanding can be found by looking at the verse just before this one.

(83 Say to those who have no faith "If they terminate/stop, (it) will be forgiven for them what had preceded/passed , and if they return, so the first's/beginners'' law/manner had passed/expired ."

Then the God continues in 839 "And fightl them until (there) be no misguidance/betrayal ..."

So the "fighting" is a psychological battle of morals/conduct. We are to be MESSENGERS enjoining what is right and speaking out against what is wrong. Too many of us just walk by saying nothing.

(2216) It is written on you the fighting, and it is hated to you and maybe/perhaps you hate a thing and it is best/good to you, and maybe/perhaps you like/love a thing and it is bad/evil to you, and The God knows, and you do not know.

mquran

Salaamun alaikum Tony,

This question baffled me as well. It all lies in the definition of the term 'ad-deen'. What is ad-deen all about ?

Say "My Lord hath commanded justice; and that ye set your whole selves (to Him) at every time and place of prayer, and call upon Him, making AD-DEEN solely for him such as He created you in the beginning, so shall ye return." (7/29)

This is what its about. We are not to cease fighting until there's justice prevailling everywhere.

Note that this has nothing to do with 'millat' (culture, methods of doing things) but 'deen'. It also has nothing to do with 'imaan' (faith, conviction)

thanks and salaam.

burhan

8 39. And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is all for Allah. But if they cease, then lo! Allah is Seer of what they do. -Pickthall

Islam haters interpret this as not to stop fighting disbelievers until everyone converts to Islam.

How do we answer them?

Dear Tony,

You will come across many verses like that, and there is no need to fall into dispute over the meaning of certain words.

Tell Islam haters that the above verse only apply when the following conditions are met.

Killing a human being without self defence or justice is considered like killing all humanity (532).
Believers can only fight for self defence; no wars of aggression. No, pre-emptive strike based on speculations and lies (608-9).
The Quran gives permission to believers to fight against aggressors only (2239-40...).

A muslim is asked to follow to quran in complete not verse by verse.

Peace.

Tony

8 39. And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is all for Allah. But if they cease, then lo! Allah is Seer of what they do. -Pickthall

Islam haters interpret this as not to stop fighting disbelievers until everyone converts to Islam.

How do we answer them?

Dear Tony,

You will come across many verses like that, and there is no need to fall into dispute over the meaning of certain words.

Tell Islam haters that the above verse only apply when the following conditions are met.

Killing a human being without self defence or justice is considered like killing all humanity (532).
Believers can only fight for self defence; no wars of aggression. No, pre-emptive strike based on speculations and lies (608-9).
The Quran gives permission to believers to fight against aggressors only (2239-40...).

A muslim is asked to follow to quran in complete not verse by verse.

Peace.

Salam Burhan,

I agree with you but mysteriously, they won't listen whatever reasoning you give them. They talk as if they know a great deal about Islam to criticize it severely, but in the Sunni orientation.

Peace
Tony

anthonywallace

Peace all,

Let us come to agreement

Agreement

Desired results-

845 O you who believe, when you meet a force, stand firm and mention God excessively, that you may succeed.

929 Fight those who do not believe in God or the Last Day, nor do they forbid what God and His messenger have forbidden, nor do they uphold the system of truth - from among the people who have been given the Scripture - until they pay the reparation, willingly or unwillingly, and they are subdued..

474 if you encounter those who have rejected, then strike the necks; until you bind them, then secure the cords. You may then either set them free or ransom them, until the war ends. That, and had God willed, He alone could have beaten them, but He thus tests you by one another. As for those who get killed in the cause of God, He will never let their deeds be put to waste.

499 And if two parties of believers battle with each other, you shall reconcile them; but if one of them aggresses against the other, then you shall fight the one aggressing until it complies with God's command. Once it complies, then you shall reconcile the two groups with justice, and be equitable; for God loves those who are equitable

Guidelines-

2190 And fight in the cause of God against those who fight you, but do not transgress, God does not like the aggressors.
2191 And kill them wherever you find them, and expel them from where they expelled you, and know that persecution is worse than being killed. And do not fight them at the Sacred Temple unless they fight you in it; if they fight you then kill them, thus is the reward of the disbelievers

488 What is the matter with you that you are divided into two groups over the hypocrites, while God has regressed them for what they have earned? Do you want to guide those whom God misguides? Whoever God causes to be misguided, you will never find for him a way.489 They hope that you would reject as they rejected, then you would be the same. Do not take any of them as allies until they emigrate in the cause of God. If they turn away, then take them and kill them where you find them; and do not take from them any ally or supporter.490 Except for those who reach a people between whom you have a covenant, or if they come to you with a reluctance in their chests to fight you or to fight their own people. Had God willed He would have given them strength and they would have fought you. But if they retire from you, and did not fight you, and they offer you peace; then God does not make for you a way against them.

4107 And do not argue on behalf of those who betray themselves. God does not like those who are betrayers, sinners.

936 The count of the months with God is twelve months in God?s record the day He created the heavens and the Earth; four of them are restricted. This is the correct system; so do not wrong yourselves in them; and fight those who set up partners collectively as they fight you collectively. And know that God is with the righteous

815 O you who believe; when you encounter those who have rejected on the battlefield, do not flee from them.
816 And whoever on that day flees from them; unless it is part of the battle strategy or if he is retreating back to his group; then he has drawn God?s wrath upon him, and his abode will be Hell. What a miserable destiny.

846 And obey God and His messenger, and do not dispute else you will fail and your momentum will depart, and be patient. God is with the patient ones.

2267 For every nation We have established rites which they are to fulfill. So do not let the matter fall into dispute. And call upon your Lord, for you are on a guidance which is straight.

2946 And do not argue with the people of the Scripture except in the best manner; except for those who are wicked amongst them; and say ?We believe in what was revealed to us and in what was revealed to you, and our god and your god is the same; to Him we submit.?

Accountabilitys-

484 So fight in the cause of God; you are not responsible except for yourself. And enjoin the believers ?Perhaps God will put a stop to the might of those who disbelieved.? And God is far Mightier and far more Punishing.

860 And prepare for them all that you can of might, and from the steeds of war, that you may instill fear with it towards God?s enemy and your enemy, and others beside them whom you do not know but God knows them. And whatever you spend in the cause of God will be returned to you, and you will not be wronged.

9123 O you who believe, fight those who around you of the rejecters, and let them find strength in you; and know that God is with the righteous.

941 Mobilize in light gear or heavy gear, and strive with your money and lives in the cause of God. That is best if you knew.

peace

nadeem

Peace,

I think there are two key phrases in this verse "Waqatiloohum (and kill/fight them) hatta la takoona fitnatun wayakoona alddeenu kulluhu lillahi fa-ini intahaw fa-inna Allaha bima yaAAmaloona baseerun"

First out is the command to "kill or fight them". Even without looking at surrounding verses, it is clear from the purpose the reading gives (until there is no more oppression) that the "them" refers to tyrants and their militia. The question of oppressing innocent "non-muslims" doesn't even arise because oppression in its totality is what the reading is ordering us to fight against in the first place!

Secondly, the phrase "alddeenu kulluhu lillahi" which has been translated by Yusuf Ali as "faith in Allah altogether and everywhere". This translation contradicts the first part of the verse quite clearly, and translations like this one are responsible for the confusion. The particle "Li" in "Lillahi" denotes ownership and possession. This phrase should therefore be translated something like "faith completely is up to god". Meaning that matters of faith will be settled and judged by god alone, and in the meantime we should wait for the judgement and not take matters into our own hands. This fits perfectly with what the reading says in other verses. Take for example 787 which says "... so be patient until God judges/rules between us ...".

We should also remember that "Allah" was a neutral term at the time of Muhammed. "Allah" simply meant "the god" and wasn't Muhammed's personal favorite which he was trying to promote. The term "deen is completely up to allah" should therefore not be taken to mean that the deen belongs a deity that is represented here on earth by a superior arabic clan which enjoys special rights and privileges.

Peace,

Nadeem

Samia

Peace,

I think there are two key phrases in this verse "Waqatiloohum (and kill/fight them) hatta la takoona fitnatun wayakoona alddeenu kulluhu lillahi fa-ini intahaw fa-inna Allaha bima yaAAmaloona baseerun"

And I add and there's one key word islaam. Islaam is the way of life/deen since Noah and maybe before him. It's by no means started after Muhammad. Fighting should be against the transgressor, even if they were believers
"and if two groups of believers fight between them, strike peace between them. But if one of them transgressed/continued its transgression, fight this one until it comes back to God's command...." 499

Wakas

peace sister Samia, bro Nadeem, all,

Thank you both for helping me to understand this verse better.

The prior verses are discussing breaking of rules / hostilities, not actually beliefs which 838 clearly shows by saying all is forgiven if they cease this.

499 is an excellent reminder. Another verse showing ACTIONS rank greater than BELIEFS. That is key.

I would also add that "al deen" in the context of 839 may be referring to a real world society-type structure rather than refernce to a religion/belief, as in 912 ("assail IN YOUR deen&quot.

Also, doesn't the "hu" in "kulluhu" refer to "al deen", so what is all for God is "al deen", NOTHING ELSE.

If so, I would translate and explain it as
"until their is no fitna and the system/obligation (i.e. that which is due) becomes all of it for God."

So that "al deen" is for God, not that everyone living/participating in "al deen" is a believer in God, but "al deen" is a real world structure which corresponds to God's guidelines/laws. This real world structure should all of it, be for God, which is synonymous with in accordance to God's law.