Who are the people of the book?
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Salaam Arnab
Your analysis of the story of the elephant is up-side-down. Look at all of you who are trying to figure out what the torah is Has it ever existed, was it tampered with or was it pure, is it available and in our grasp or not, was it divine, what language is best to read it...those are the people in the dark trying to figure out what this "creature" is. On the other hand, the answer is very simple turn on the light (it is there...I mean the light). This light is described by God as "guidance to the righteous". You will find the necessary description of the elephant as far as you are concerned. End of story.When you study ALL the scriptures....its as if you were given a LIGHT so that you can SEE the Elephant in the dark.
God incorporated what is necessary and what we need of past scriptures in the qur'aan. The qur'aan is the guidance...the Light.
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Salaam Arnab
Your analysis of the story of the elephant is up-side-down. Look at all of you who are trying to figure out what the torah is Has it ever existed, was it tampered with or was it pure, is it available and in our grasp or not, was it divine, what language is best to read it...those are the people in the dark trying to figure out what this "creature" is. On the other hand, the answer is very simple turn on the light (it is there...I mean the light). This light is described by God as "guidance to the righteous". You will find the necessary description of the elephant as far as you are concerned. End of story.
God incorporated what is necessary and what we need of past scriptures in the qur'aan. The qur'aan is the guidance...the Light.Salam,
I took for granted that it would not be difficult to understand the story. I see from your post above that I was mistaken.
An Elephant belonging to a traveling exhibition had been stabled near a town where no elephant had been seen before. Four curious citizens, hearing of the hidden wonder, went to see if they could get a preview of it. When they arrived at the stable they found that there was no light. The investigation therefore had to be carried out in the dark.
The elephant represents scripture.
One, touching its trunk, thought that the creature must resemble a hose pipe;
the second felt an ear and concluded that it was a fan.
The third, feeling a leg, could liken it only to a living pillar;
and when the fourth put his hand on its back he was convinced that it was some kind of throne.Each person is only reading ONE part of scripture. In some the case of some people they ONLY read the Quran.
None could form the complete picture;
When one does not read ALL the scriptures, they cannot FULLY understand the information contained therein.
and of the part which each felt, he could only refer to it in terms of things which he already knew.
IF all you read is the Quran....you will try to find answers that the QURAN. But the QURAN itself tells you to look elsewhere The previous scriptures.
The result of the expedition was confusion.
Each was sure that he was right;Those who only read the OT are SURE they are RIGHT and everyone else is wrong.
Those who only read the QURAN are sure they are RIGHT and everyone else is wrong.But they are still confused on many points. Why? Because they are not SEEING the Elephant. They are just feeling around in the dark.
none of the other townspeople could understand what had happened, what the investigators had actually experienced.
"You follow NO GOOD until you KEEP UP the TORAH and INJEEL"
Salam,
Arnab -
Peace.
I agree with Samia - you've presented a backwards story regarding the Scripture. If you read through the verse of al-Qur'an, it says that it has the details for everything, it is complete, and it explains all things
"And We placed shields around their hearts, to prevent them from understanding it, and deafness in their ears. And when you preach your Lord, using al-Qur'an alone, they run away in aversion." (al-Qur'an 1746)
Study the Scripture of al-Qur'an where it mentions these things (6114-115; 1689; 638; 12111), and you'll understand. None of these verses tell us to study these other books also - 1746 says "AL-QUR'AN ALONE", which means we need no other book to complete our picture. Al-Qur'an is even called "the Light" in the Scriptures. God has incorporated everything we need regarding Scripture inside al-Kitaab, which is why it confirms the previous Scriptures. We don't need to study the "Gospels" of Esa to learn about him, not because al-Qur'an gives us all the details of his life, but because al-Qur'an gives us ALL THE DETAILS WE NEED regarding his life and message. All that other stuff in unnecessary, especially considering the fact that the Gospels that we have (Biblical accounts of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John) are all MAN-MADE BOOKS of Esa's life, similar to reading sunna and hadeeths.
Peace.
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Peace.
I agree with Samia - you've presented a backwards story regarding the Scripture. If you read through the verse of al-Qur'an, it says that it has the details for everything, it is complete, and it explains all things
"And We placed shields around their hearts, to prevent them from understanding it, and deafness in their ears. And when you preach your Lord, using al-Qur'an alone, they run away in aversion." (al-Qur'an 1746)
Study the Scripture of al-Qur'an where it mentions these things (6114-115; 1689; 638; 12111), and you'll understand. None of these verses tell us to study these other books also - 1746 says "AL-QUR'AN ALONE", which means we need no other book to complete our picture. Al-Qur'an is even called "the Light" in the Scriptures. God has incorporated everything we need regarding Scripture inside al-Kitaab, which is why it confirms the previous Scriptures. We don't need to study the "Gospels" of Esa to learn about him, not because al-Qur'an gives us all the details of his life, but because al-Qur'an gives us ALL THE DETAILS WE NEED regarding his life and message. All that other stuff in unnecessary, especially considering the fact that the Gospels that we have (Biblical accounts of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John) are all MAN-MADE BOOKS of Esa's life, similar to reading sunna and hadeeths.
Peace.
Salam,
Did you forget ALL of these verses from the Quran?
Part of being a ?believer? is believing in that which is revealed and that which was revealed BEFORE
23 And who believe in that which has been revealed to you and that which was revealed before you and they are sure of the hereafter.
241 And believe in what I have revealed, verifying that which is with you, and be not the first to deny it, neither take a mean price in exchange for My communications; and Me, Me alone should you fear.
290 Evil is that for which they have sold their souls-- that they should deny what Allah has revealed, out of envy that Allah should send down of His grace on whomsoever of His servants He pleases; so they have made themselves deserving of wrath upon wrath, and there is a disgraceful punishment for the unbelievers.
291 And when it is said to them, Believe in what Allah has revealed, they say We believe in that which was revealed to us; and they deny what is besides that, while it is the truth verifying that which they have. Say Why then did you kill Allah's Prophets before if you were indeed believers?
297 Say Whoever is the enemy of Jibreel-- for surely he revealed it to your heart by Allah's command, verifying that which is before it and guidance and good news for the believers.
2136 Say We believe in Allah and (in) that which had been revealed to us, and (in) that which was revealed to Ibrahim and Ismail and Ishaq and Yaqoub and the tribes, and (in) that which was given to Musa and Isa, and (in) that which was given to the prophets from their Lord, we do not make any distinction between any of them, and to Him do we submit.
2285 The messenger believes in what has been revealed to him from his Lord, and (so do) the believers; they all believe in Allah and His angels and His books and His messengers; We make no difference between any of His messengers; and they say We hear and obey, our Lord! Thy forgiveness (do we crave), and to Thee is the eventual course.
33 He has revealed to you the Book with truth, verifying that which is before it, and He revealed the Tavrat and the Injeel aforetime, a guidance for the people, and He sent the Furqan.
34 Surely they who disbelieve in the communications of Allah they shall have a severe chastisement; and Allah is Mighty, the Lord of retribution.
384 Say We believe in Allah and what has been revealed to us, and what was revealed to Ibrahim and Ismail and Ishaq and Yaqoub and the tribes, and what was given to Musa and Isa and to the prophets from their Lord; we do not make any distinction between any of them, and to Him do we submit.
3199 And most surely of the followers of the Book there are those who believe in Allah and (in) that which has been revealed to you and (in) that which has been revealed to them, being lowly before Allah; they do not take a small price for the communications of Allah; these it is that have their reward with their Lord; surely Allah is quick in reckoning.
447 O you who have been given the Book! believe that which We have revealed, verifying what you have, before We alter faces then turn them on their backs, or curse them as We cursed the violaters of the Sabbath, and the command of Allah shall be executed.
4136 O you who believe! believe in Allah and His Messenger and the Book which He has revealed to His Messenger and the Book which He revealed before; and whoever disbelieves in Allah and His angels and His messengers and the last day, he indeed strays off into a remote error.
4162 But the firm in knowledge among them and the believers believe in what has been revealed to. you and what was revealed before you, and those who keep up prayers and those who give the poor-rate and the believers in Allah and the last day, these it is whom We will give a mighty reward.
544 Surely We revealed the Taurat in which was guidance and light; with it the prophets who submitted themselves (to Allah) judged (matters) for those who were Jews, and the masters of Divine knowledge and the doctors, because they were required to guard (part) of the Book of Allah, and they were witnesses thereof; therefore fear not the people and fear Me, and do not take a small price for My communications; and whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed, those are they that are the unbelievers.
547 And the followers of the Injeel should have judged by what Allah revealed in it; and whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed, those are they that are the transgressors.
548 And We have revealed to you the Book with the truth, verifying what is before it of the Book and a guardian over it, therefore judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and do not follow their low desires (to turn away) from the truth that has come to you; for every one of you did We appoint a law and a way, and if Allah had pleased He would have made you (all) a single people, but that He might try you in what He gave you, therefore strive with one another to hasten to virtuous deeds; to Allah is your return, of all (of you), so He will let you know that in which you differed;
559 Say O followers of the Book! do you find fault with us (for aught) except that we believe in Allah and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed before, and that most of you are transgressors?
566 And if they had kept up the Taurat and the Injeel and that which was revealed to them from their Lord, they would certainly have eaten from above them and from beneath their feet there is a party of them keeping to the moderate course, and (as for) most of them, evil is that which they do
568 Say O followers of the Book! you follow no good till you keep up the Taurat and the Injeel and that which is revealed to you from your Lord; and surely that which has been revealed to you from your Lord shall make many of them increase in inordinacy and unbelief; grieve not therefore for the unbelieving people.
692 And this is a Book We have revealed, blessed, verifying that which is before it, and that you may warn the metropolis and those around her; and those who believe in the hereafter believe in it, and they attend to their prayers constantly.
1094 But if you are in doubt as to what We have revealed to you, ask those who read the Book before you; certainly the truth has come to you from your Lord, therefore you should not be of the disputers.
4230
They said O our people! we have listened to a Book revealed after Musa verifying that which is before it, guiding to the truth and to a right pathSeveral times the revelation given to Muhammad is called a REMINDER
What are the stories in the Quran REMINDING us about?
A LARGE PORTION is about the previous prophets....
in the PREVIOUS scripture....
Those stories are found in the OLD TESTAMENT AND THE INJEEL!
These stories HAVE BEEN WITH US FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS.
The written forms have also been with us for THOUSANDS OF YEARS.388 Has the reminder been revealed to him from among us? Nay! they are in doubt as to My reminder. Nay! they have not yet tasted My chastisement!
82 A Book revealed to you-- so let there be no straitness in your breast on account of it-- that you may warn thereby, and a reminder close to the believers.
152 And they say O you to whom the Reminder has been revealed! you are most surely insane
159 Surely We have revealed the Reminder and We will most surely be its guardian.
1244 With clear arguments and scriptures; and We have revealed to you the Reminder that you may make clear to men what has been revealed to them, and that haply they may reflect.
20113 And thus have We sent it down an Arabic Quran, and have distinctly set forth therein of threats that they may guard (against evil) or that it may produce a reminder for them.
2110 Certainly We have revealed to you a Book in which is your good remembrance; what! do you not then understand?
2150And this is a blessed Reminder which We have revealed; will you then deny it?
2951 Is it not enough for them that We have revealed to you the Book which is recited to them? Most surely there is mercy in this and a reminder for a people who believe.
2510 Allah has prepared for them severe chastisement, therefore be careful of (your duty to) Allah, O men of understanding who believe! Allah has indeed revealed to you a reminder,
What has been revealed before? and to what is the Quran reminding us? This is outlined in the Quran
33 He has revealed to you the Book with truth, verifying that which is before it, and He revealed the Tavrat and the Injeel aforetime, a guidance for the people, and He sent the Furqan.
348 And He will teach him the Book and the wisdom and the Tavrat and the Injeel.
350 And a verifier of that which is before me of the Taurat and that I may allow you part of that which has been forbidden t you, and I have come to you with a sign from your Lord therefore be careful of (your duty to) Allah and obey me.
543 And how do they make you a judge and they have the Taurat wherein is Allah's judgment? Yet they turn back after that, and these are not the believers.
544 Surely We revealed the Taurat in which was guidance and light; with it the prophets who submitted themselves (to Allah) judged (matters) for those who were Jews, and the masters of Divine knowledge and the doctors, because they were required to guard (part) of the Book of Allah, and they were witnesses thereof; therefore fear not the people and fear Me, and do not take a small price for My communications; and whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed, those are they that are the unbelievers.
546 And We sent after them in their footsteps Isa, son of Marium, verifying what was before him of the Taurat and We gave him the Injeel in which was guidance and light, and verifying what was before it of Taurat and a guidance and an admonition for those who guard (against evil).
566 And if they had kept up the Taurat and the Injeel and that which was revealed to them from their Lord, they would certainly have eaten from above them and from beneath their feet there is a party of them keeping to the moderate course, and (as for) most of them, evil is that which they do
568 Say O followers of the Book! you follow no good till you keep up the Taurat and the Injeel and that which is revealed to you from your Lord; and surely that which has been revealed to you from your Lord shall make many of them increase in inordinacy and unbelief; grieve not therefore for the unbelieving people.
5110 When Allah will say O Isa son of Marium! Remember My favor on you and on your mother, when I strengthened you I with the holy Spirit, you spoke to the people in the cradle and I when of old age, and when I taught you the Book and the wisdom and the Taurat and the Injeel; and when you determined out of clay a thing like the form of a bird by My permission, then you breathed into it and it became a bird by My permission, and you healed the blind and the leprous by My permission; and when you brought forth the dead by My permission; and when I withheld the children of Israel from you when you came to them with clear arguments, but those who disbelieved among them said This is nothing but clear enchantment.
7157 Those who follow the Messenger-Prophet, the Ummi, whom they find written down with them in the Taurat and the Injeel (who) enjoins them good and forbids them evil, and makes lawful to them the good things and makes unlawful to them impure things, and removes from them their burden and the shackles which were upon them; so (as for) those who believe in him and honor him and help him, and follow the light which has been sent down with him, these it is that are the successful.
9111 Surely Allah has bought of the believers their persons and their property for this, that they shall have the garden; they fight in Allah's way, so they slay and are slain; a promise which is binding on Him in the Taurat and the Injeel and the Quran; and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? Rejoice therefore in the pledge which you have made; and that is the mighty achievement.
4869 Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and those with him are firm of heart against the unbelievers, compassionate among themselves; you will see them bowing down, prostrating themselves, seeking grace from Allah and pleasure; their marks are in their faces because of the effect of prostration; that is their description in the Taurat and their description in the Injeel; like as seed-produce that puts forth its sprout, then strengthens it, so it becomes stout and stands firmly on its stem, delighting the sowers that He may enrage the unbelievers on account of them; Allah has promised those among them who believe and do good, forgiveness and a great reward.
616 And when Isa son of Marium said O children of Israel! surely I am the messenger of Allah to you, verifying that which is before me of the Taurat and giving the good news of an Messenger who will come after me, his name being Ahmad, but when he came to them with clear arguments they said This is clear magic.
625 The likeness of those who were charged with the Taurat, then they did not observe it, is as the likeness of the ass bearing books, evil is the likeness of the people who reject the communications of Allah; and Allah does not guide the unjust people.
547 And the followers of the Injeel should have judged by what Allah revealed in it; and whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed, those are they that are the transgressors.
4163 Surely We have revealed to you as We revealed to Nuh, and the prophets after him, and We revealed to Ibrahim and Ismail and Ishaq and Yaqoub and the tribes, and Isa and Ayub and Yunus and Haroun and Sulaiman and We gave to Dawood the psalms.
1755 And your Lord best knows those who are in the heavens and the earth; and certainly We have made some of the prophets to excel others, and to Dawood We gave a scripture.
Previous scripture is REVELATION from ALLAH
33
He has revealed to you the Book with truth, verifying that which is before it, and He revealed the Tavrat and the Injeel aforetime, a guidance for the people, and He sent the Furqan.543
And how do they make you a judge and they have the Taurat wherein is Allah's judgment? Yet they turn back after that, and these are not the believers.544
Surely We revealed the Taurat in which was guidance and light; with it the prophets who submitted themselves (to Allah) judged (matters) for those who were Jews, and the masters of Divine knowledge and the doctors, because they were required to guard (part) of the Book of Allah, and they were witnesses thereof; therefore fear not the people and fear Me, and do not take a small price for My communications; and whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed, those are they that are the unbelievers.545
And We prescribed to them in it that life is for life, and eye for eye, and nose for nose, and ear for ear, and tooth for tooth, and (that there is) reprisal in wounds; but he who foregoes it, it shall be an expiation for him; and whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed, those are they that are the unjust.546
And We sent after them in their footsteps Isa, son of Marium, verifying what was before him of the Taurat and We gave him the Injeel in which was guidance and light, and verifying what was before it of Taurat and a guidance and an admonition for those who guard (against evil).547
And the followers of the Injeel should have judged by what Allah revealed in it; and whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed, those are they that are the transgressors.548
And We have revealed to you the Book with the truth, verifying what is before it of the Book and a guardian over it, therefore judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and do not follow their low desires (to turn away) from the truth that has come to you; for every one of you did We appoint a law and a way, and if Allah had pleased He would have made you (all) a single people, but that He might try you in what He gave you, therefore strive with one another to hasten to virtuous deeds; to Allah is your return, of all (of you), so He will let you know that in which you differed;YOU follow NO GOOD until you Keep up the Torah and Injeel
568
Say O followers of the Book! you follow no good till you keep up the Taurat and the Injeel and that which is revealed to you from your Lord; and surely that which has been revealed to you from your Lord shall make many of them increase in inordinacy and unbelief; grieve not therefore for the unbelieving people.The ones who are GUIDED?.BELIEVE in what was revealed BEFORE?THIS is how we know who is guided as said in al baqarah....
24
And who believe in that which has been revealed to you and that which was revealed before you and they are sure of the hereafter.And this is what is said of those who do NOT believe in previous revelation?..
4136
O you who believe! believe in Allah and His Messenger and the Book which He has revealed to His Messenger and the Book which He revealed before; and whoever disbelieves in Allah and His angels and His messengers and the last day, he indeed strays off into a remote error.625
The likeness of those who were charged with the Taurat, then they did not observe it, is as the likeness of the ass bearing books, evil is the likeness of the people who reject the communications of Allah; and Allah does not guide the unjust people.566
And if they had kept up the Taurat and the Injeel and that which was revealed to them from their Lord, they would certainly have eaten from above them and from beneath their feet there is a party of them keeping to the moderate course, and (as for) most of them, evil is that which they doThe common claim is that previous scripture has been lost or altered.
Those who make such claims are also claiming that THEY DISBELIEVE in the Quran when we are TOLD to uphold previous scripture.
I have given several verses as evidence regarding previous scripture. However, there ARE MANY MORE.
Allah clearly states that HE KNOWS BEST what is in the Heavens and the EARTH (that would include knowing that previous scriptures are STILL here for us to UPHOLD as COMMANDED).?
1755
And your Lord best knows those who are in the heavens and the earth; and certainly We have made some of the prophets to excel others, and to Dawood We gave a scripture.Salam,
Arnab -
Salam people of this thread. Before claiming that you consider the followers of the Quran, to be the people of the book, LEARN THE MEANING OF THE WORD QURAN.
The word QURAN means "that which is recited" You do yourselves a great WRONG by making a claim that "a particular writing" is Quran. Making such a claim is "your addition to the word of Allah" Which is haram. If Torah, or Zabur, or Injeel, or Quran is RECITED to you it is ALL QURAN. The word Quran INCLUDES Torah, Injeel, and Zabur.
You do yourselves a great evil by rejecting ANY WORD of Allah. If you foolishly claim the authenticity of Allah's word is in doubt, then NONE of Allah's word is good enough for you, you were not present when Allah recited Quran. You would be better off worshipping a newspaper.
Allah is has the mother of the writing.
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Peace Arnab,
"You follow NO GOOD until you KEEP UP the TORAH and INJEEL"
Let?s read in context?
567-69
O Messenger! Proclaim which has been sent down to you from your Lord (the Quran). And if you do not, then you have not conveyed His Message. All?h will protect you from mankind. Verily, All?h guides not the people who disbelieve. Say "You The Book's people, you are not on a thing, until you keep up the Torah and the Injeel, and what was descended to you from your Lord (the Quran)." And what was descended to you from your Lord increases many of them tyranny/arrogance, and disbelief, so do not grieve/sadden on the nation, the disbelieving. Surely, those who believe, those who are the Jews and the Sabians and the Christians, - whosoever believed in All?h and the Last Day, and worked righteousness, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.There is no contradiction; Quran confirms only the truth in prior scriptures (not entire word for word bible whichever books those are) thus preserving their true revelations?
12111
In their narration (stories there) had been an example to those of the pure minds/hearts (it) was not an information/speech to be fabricated and but confirmation (to) which (is) between his hands and detailing/explaining/clarifying every thing, and guidance, and mercy to (a) nation believing. -
Peace Arnab,
Let?s read in context?
567-69
O Messenger! Proclaim which has been sent down to you from your Lord (the Quran). And if you do not, then you have not conveyed His Message. All?h will protect you from mankind. Verily, All?h guides not the people who disbelieve. Say "You The Book's people, you are not on a thing, until you keep up the Torah and the Injeel, and what was descended to you from your Lord (the Quran)." And what was descended to you from your Lord increases many of them tyranny/arrogance, and disbelief, so do not grieve/sadden on the nation, the disbelieving. Surely, those who believe, those who are the Jews and the Sabians and the Christians, - whosoever believed in All?h and the Last Day, and worked righteousness, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.There is no contradiction; Quran confirms only the truth in prior scriptures (not entire word for word bible whichever books those are) thus preserving their true revelations?
Salam,
By your reasoning then the Quran is not to be followed entirely either...(which is not true)
...Say "You The Book's people, you are not on a thing, until you keep up the Torah and the Injeel, and what was descended to you from your Lord (the Quran)."
Exactly WHERE do you SEE that the WHOLE of the previous scriptures is not to be followed. It does not say this in THIS verse or the others. This is your imagination.
12111
In their narration (stories there) had been an example to those of the pure minds/hearts (it) was not an information/speech to be fabricated and but confirmation (to) which (is) between his hands and detailing/explaining/clarifying every thing, and guidance, and mercy to (a) nation believing.This verse actually supports my statements.
Salam,
Arnab -
Salaam pvb
samia - you know nothing about Jesus by reading just the Quran and not reading the Gospel. The Quran confirms a scripture and you don't want to read it?
Like what? His temptations for example? The qur'aan tells about Jesus more than it tells about Muhammad or many other messengers. It tells me what is necessary to know. It's not a biography. Give me one confirmed and important detail that the qur'aan overlooked regarding the story of Jesus (or any other prophet/messenger for that matter). Ironically, it's only in hadith that we find details of the life of Muhammad. If I am not concerning myself with details of one messenger, why should I bother about details of other messengers' lives?
Salam,
I took for granted that it would not be difficult to understand the story. I see from your post above that I was mistaken.
An Elephant belonging to a traveling exhibition had been stabled near a town where no elephant had been seen before. Four curious citizens, hearing of the hidden wonder, went to see if they could get a preview of it. When they arrived at the stable they found that there was no light. The investigation therefore had to be carried out in the dark.
The elephant represents scripture.
One, touching its trunk, thought that the creature must resemble a hose pipe;
the second felt an ear and concluded that it was a fan.
The third, feeling a leg, could liken it only to a living pillar;
and when the fourth put his hand on its back he was convinced that it was some kind of throne.Each person is only reading ONE part of scripture. In some the case of some people they ONLY read the Quran.
None could form the complete picture;
When one does not read ALL the scriptures, they cannot FULLY understand the information contained therein.
and of the part which each felt, he could only refer to it in terms of things which he already knew.
IF all you read is the Quran....you will try to find answers that the QURAN. But the QURAN itself tells you to look elsewhere The previous scriptures.
The result of the expedition was confusion.
Each was sure that he was right;Those who only read the OT are SURE they are RIGHT and everyone else is wrong.
Those who only read the QURAN are sure they are RIGHT and everyone else is wrong.But they are still confused on many points. Why? Because they are not SEEING the Elephant. They are just feeling around in the dark.
none of the other townspeople could understand what had happened, what the investigators had actually experienced.
"You follow NO GOOD until you KEEP UP the TORAH and INJEEL"
Salam,
ArnabSalaam Arnab
Yes, you have to put a sign for each part of your story so that it is twisted to your understanding. The qur'aan tells me to believe in previous scriptures (you did not have to cite all the verses), but it also told me that it had copied what is valid in the qur'aan and replaced what is no more valid by better ones. It did not even mention the fabrications and unnecessary additions (which, of course are to be disregarded, no matter which "religion" they emanate from). The qur'aan tells us about messages, not just from the time of Jesus and Moses, but back from Noah. The message is one, revealed in parts and confirmed in the qur'aan . The qur'aan tells us about what was revealed to Noah and the other messengers down to the last one. Please tell us of ONE imporant and indispensible detail revealed in other scriptures that the qur'aan has overlooked.
The word QURAN means "that which is recited" You do yourselves a great WRONG by making a claim that "a particular writing" is Quran.
Salaam Al Araf
Your definition applies to "a qur'aan a great recitation". What we have is the great recitation AL qur'aan, or as Ayman puts it The Great Reading, because the pattern "fa3laan" is an emphatic pattern. The non-emphatic/standard pattern is "qiraa'a recitation". So, yes, you are partially right the other scriptures are recitations, but Al qur'aan is THE great reading/mother of all readings. -
Salaam pvbLike what? His temptations for example? The qur'aan tells about Jesus more than it tells about Muhammad or many other messengers. It tells me what is necessary to know. It's not a biography. Give me one confirmed and important detail that the qur'aan overlooked regarding the story of Jesus (or any other prophet/messenger for that matter). Ironically, it's only in hadith that we find details of the life of Muhammad. If I am not concerning myself with details of one messenger, why should I bother about details of other messengers' lives?
Have you READ the Gospel in ARAMAIC to make this statement or are you reciting only what others have told you?
Salaam Arnab
Yes, you have to put a sign for each part of your story so that it is twisted to your understanding.
rotfl No, its a well established story that has been told for centuries to illustrate similiar examples and the meanings are clear.
Even Wikipedia has an article on it LOL
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_Men_and_an_Elephant
The qur'aan tells me to believe in previous scriptures (you did not have to cite all the verses), but it also told me that it had copied what is valid in the qur'aan and replaced what is no more valid by better ones.
No, it does not say that.
It did not even mention the fabrications and unnecessary additions (which, of course are to be disregarded, no matter which "religion" they emanate from). The qur'aan tells us about messages, not just from the time of Jesus and Moses, but back from Noah. The message is one, revealed in parts and confirmed in the qur'aan . The qur'aan tells us about what was revealed to Noah and the other messengers down to the last one.
The Quran summarizes, reminds, and confirms (among other things). The details are in the previous scripture. You cannot be REMINDED if you do not have the FULL stories to be reminded about. You cannot understand the summaries if you don't know the FULL stories that are summarized and you do not know what is being confirmed or corrected if you have no other basis for your information other than the correction of confirmation itself.
Please tell us of ONE imporant and indispensible detail revealed in other scriptures that the qur'aan has overlooked.
The KEY WORD in that above statement is DETAIL. The DETAILS for many things are in previous scripture.
Prayer, and observation DETAILS of Holy days to name two very important DETAILS that are in previous scripture. Not to say that the Quran does not mention them. But the DETAILS are in the previous scriptures.
The following is directed to the readers of this thread
When someone makes a statement about a subject without having knowledge about the subject other than heresay, they are only parroting what others have told them.
Let me be more specific
When someone says that the previous scripture is filled with lies, has been changed, or is not revelation
AND
They have not read these scriptures in their ORIGINAL languages,They are speaking about that which they HAVE NO KNOWLEDGE and merely parroting what others have told them.
Now, if someone says that they have read the previous scripture in Hebrew and Aramaic an intelligent discussion can ensue.
Salam,
Arnab -
Salam,
By your reasoning then the Quran is not to be followed entirely either...(which is not true)
...Say "You The Book's people, you are not on a thing, until you keep up the Torah and the Injeel, and what was descended to you from your Lord (the Quran)."
Exactly WHERE do you SEE that the WHOLE of the previous scriptures is not to be followed. It does not say this in THIS verse or the others. This is your imagination.
Where exactly do you see that the WHOLE of the previous scriptures refers to the Catholic cannon books minus selective exclusions like the letters of Paul?
That is your imagination and belief ? It reads follow the Torah and the Injeel and what was descended to you from your Lord, i.e. Quran which contains Torah and Injeel in it.
Again, which previous scriptures; according to Mark, Mary, Thomas, Peter, et al...
http//www.earlychristianwritings.com/
12111
In their narration (stories there) had been an example to those of the pure minds/hearts (it) was not an information/speech to be fabricated and but confirmation (to) which (is) between his hands and detailing/explaining/clarifying every thing, and guidance, and mercy to (a) nation believing.This verse actually supports my statements.
No it does not ? in their narration is referring to Quran which confirms what the previous scriptures contained, not that it?s the same thing as contradicting hearsay fabrications floating around or details how to perform pagan rituals.
Peace
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Have you READ the Gospel in ARAMAIC to make this statement or are you reciting only what others have told you?
No. I read The qur'aan in its original language.
rotfl No, its a well established story that has been told for centuries to illustrate similiar examples and the meanings are clear.
No. This is your story. The "well established story" speaks of blind men, not a light that went out or was not there. Just to show you how the slightest change, even unintended or innocent, can change the message. Can you guarantee us that the Injil and Torah you speak about, even in their original language, are word to word of what God revealed? Or they just reflect the way their authors understood them? Why don't you accept translations? Isn't it for the ame reason?
You also deducted your own conclusion that agrees with your agenda. according to Buddha, it represents people blindly following an old textNo, it does not say that.
There are two statements. Which one do you refer to?
The Quran summarizes, reminds, and confirms (among other things). The details are in the previous scripture. You cannot be REMINDED if you do not have the FULL stories to be reminded about. You cannot understand the summaries if you don't know the FULL stories that are summarized and you do not know what is being confirmed or corrected if you have no other basis for your information other than the correction of confirmation itself.
Haven't you ever come in accross the word "remember athkur the story of so and so when ...." in the qur'aan? Haven't you ever come accross a statement like "that was what We told people before you?". It's called reminder because it RETELLS stories and some commandments.
1317 "as for the foam, it withers away and dies out, and what benefits the people stays in the earth"
Ironically, this verse was the rendition of Rumi for the story of the elephant and the blind men.The KEY WORD in that above statement is DETAIL. The DETAILS for many things are in previous scripture.
So God did not know how to correctly phrase His statement when He spoke of this book as detailed, complete and contains every example? Where did He tell us to look up details in other scriptures?
Prayer, and observation DETAILS of Holy days to name two very important DETAILS that are in previous scripture. Not to say that the Quran does not mention them. But the DETAILS are in the previous scriptures.
I do not know what "prayer" you talk about. If you mean "salaat", this is what God tells us
1958-59 "Those are whom God gave them of His bounty prophets from the progony of adam and from the progony of those whom we carried with Noah and from the progony of Ibrahim and Israel and from those We guided and chose, those who when verses of the Almighty are read to them fell down in obeience and tears* Then came after them descendants who lost the salat and followed their desires..."
So you think God is entrusting us to those people who lost salaat to teach us salaat?
Holy days? Never heard of that!! Nor what to eat during those days ;D -
Where exactly do you see that the WHOLE of the previous scriptures refers to the Catholic cannon books minus selective exclusions like the letters of Paul?
I have NEVER EVER said that. This is your misunderstanding.
It reads follow the Torah and the Injeel and what was descended to you from your Lord, i.e. Quran which contains Torah and Injeel in it.
You are wrong. The Quran does not contain the Torah and Injeel (although it references it). Please read the entire thread.
Salam,
Arnab -
No. I read The qur'aan in its original language.
But NOT the Gospels in Aramaic? So, then why do you say they are corrupt if you have NEVER read them?
No. This is your story. The "well established story" speaks of blind men, not a light that went out or was not there. Just to show you how the slightest change, even unintended or innocent, can change the message.
Samia, your not reading what I wrote obviously.
The story I quoted was from Idries Shah (in 1964). I did not write it. If you re-read my original thread you will see that.
Second, if you ACTUALLY READ the wiki article you would see that the story has taken on many forms through the years all to relay the SAME message. But those who have trouble understanding analogies will never get it I guess.Can you guarantee us that the Injil and Torah you speak about, even in their original language, are word to word of what God revealed? Or they just reflect the way their authors understood them? Why don't you accept translations? Isn't it for the ame reason?
Because, the Torah is the SAME Torah we have today that Isa had and Muhammad had in their time. The Injeel is the SAME Injeel that Muhammad had. How do I know this? Because we have archeological evidence that these writings are THE SAME. They have been carbon dated and analyzed.
You also deducted your own conclusion that agrees with your agenda. according to Buddha, it represents people blindly following an old text There are two statements. Which one do you refer to?Haven't you ever come in accross the word "remember athkur the story of so and so when ...." in the qur'aan? Haven't you ever come accross a statement like "that was what We told people before you?". It's called reminder because it RETELLS stories and some commandments.
1317 "as for the foam, it withers away and dies out, and what benefits the people stays in the earth"
Ironically, this verse was the rendition of Rumi for the story of the elephant and the blind men.So God did not know how to correctly phrase His statement when He spoke of this book as detailed, complete and contains every example? Where did He tell us to look up details in other scriptures?You would KNOW where Allah told us to READ other scriptures if you ACTUALLY READ the verses I listed before.
I do not know what "prayer" you talk about. If you mean "salaat", this is what God tells us
1958-59 "Those are whom God gave them of His bounty prophets from the progony of adam and from the progony of those whom we carried with Noah and from the progony of Ibrahim and Israel and from those We guided and chose, those who when verses of the Almighty are read to them fell down in obeience and tears* Then came after them descendants who lost the salat and followed their desires..."
So you think God is entrusting us to those people who lost salaat to teach us salaat?Salat is following closely. If you do a word study on the usage in the Quran you would know that.
Holy days? Never heard of that!! Nor what to eat during those days ;D
Well of course you have never heard of it, you limit your study and rely on others to tell you what THEY SAY is not scripture. It doesn't surprise me at all.
Salam,
Arnab -
I have NEVER EVER said that. This is your misunderstanding.
You are wrong. The Quran does not contain the Torah and Injeel (although it references it). Please read the entire thread.
I did read the thread and your other posts which you claim the Injeel is supposedly according to Mark, John, Luke, and Matthew whoever these people are and you are asking us to read those books in Aramaic and neglect the countless other writing according to so and so. Is this correct?
If not, then please answer and tell us exactly which scriptures do you want us to read?
Which previous scriptures is the word for word Injeel; according to Mark, Mary, Thomas, Peter, et al...
http//www.earlychristianwritings.com/
They all contradict and if it contradicts it cannot be from God.
We can discuss one verse in context at a time for it's obvious you read Torah and Injeel in Quran and auto associate that to mean what was agreed to by whichever Church and Jewish sects as their books.
Nice summary on the topic...
http//ebrahimsaifuddin.wordpress.com/2007/03/08/a-detailed-paper-refuting-christian-claim-that-the-quran-testifies-the-bible-to-be-uncorrupted/
Peace
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I did read the thread and your other posts which you claim the Injeel is supposedly according to Mark, John, Luke, and Matthew whoever these people are and you are asking us to read those books in Aramaic and neglect the countless other writing according to so and so. Is this correct?
If not, then please answer and tell us exactly which scriptures do you want us to read?
Matthew Mark Luke and John yes that is correct.
Not the whole of what Catholics or Christians regard as scripture minus selective writings as you stated earlier.
Which previous scriptures is the word for word Injeel; according to Mark, Mary, Thomas, Peter, et al...
http//www.earlychristianwritings.com/
They all contradict and if it contradicts it cannot be from God.
Again, like I tell everyone else who argues with me about this, If you HAVE NOT read them in Aramaic, then HOW can you say that they contradict?
Which, in fact, they do not.
If you have not read them....you are merely quoting heresay....not something of which you have knowledge of.
We can discuss one verse in context at a time for it's obvious you read Torah and Injeel in Quran and auto associate that to mean what was agreed to by whichever Church and Jewish sects as their books.
Those are your words and your misunderstanding.
Salam,
Arnab -
But NOT the Gospels in Aramaic? So, then why do you say they are corrupt if you have NEVER read them?
Please show me where I said they are corrupt. I do not want arguemnet, just quote my message where I said that.
Samia, your not reading what I wrote obviously.
The story I quoted was from Idries Shah (in 1964). I did not write it. If you re-read my original thread you will see that.
Second, if you ACTUALLY READ the wiki article you would see that the story has taken on many forms through the years all to relay the SAME message. But those who have trouble understanding analogies will never get it I guess.You are neither reading what I wrote, nor are you reading the link of wiki you provided. No matter who quoted the story (from Buhdda to Rumi), they ALL referred to 6 BLIND men, not 4 men and there WAS NO LIGHT. And my response was based on your statement, not the actual story. People can understand the story in many different ways (that's what your link says). But to retell the story with rong details then claim to have reached the same understanding is quite amusing.
Because, the Torah is the SAME Torah we have today that Isa had and Muhammad had in their time. The Injeel is the SAME Injeel that Muhammad had. How do I know this? Because we have archeological evidence that these writings are THE SAME. They have been carbon dated and analyzed.
Why would God command us to read scriptures in aramaic, an almost dead language? People read translations of the qur'aan and they understand it very well, in spite of the not very accurate translation. Why do you insist that people should read those scriptures in their original languages? This means people should not just study the language, but master it. I read them in Arabic. It was a comparative study between the OT, the NT and the qur'aan in more than 500 pages. This is just that you stop saying you have not read this you have not read that. Those who read them in their own language are not spared your criticism because "they did not read it in aramaic"!!
Why are there so many sects in Christianity? Marriage between them is even not allowed. Do they ALL follow the same injeel? If not, which one follows the "same" injeel revealed to Isa?You would KNOW where Allah told us to READ other scriptures if you ACTUALLY READ the verses I listed before.
Now you are forgetting your own post? The verses say "believe" not "read". You yourself wrote
Part of being a ?believer? is believing in that which is revealed and that which was revealed BEFORE
Salat is following closely. If you do a word study on the usage in the Quran you would know that.
bravo At last we agree on something. Then what "details of prayer" you are talking about?
Well of course you have never heard of it, you limit your study and rely on others to tell you what THEY SAY is not scripture. It doesn't surprise me at all.
I am referring to the qur'aan. Don't beat around the bush and stop contradicting yourself Does the qur'aan or doesn't it contain details of holy days? If it does, then you were lying, if it does not, then you are lying now.
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Matthew Mark Luke and John yes that is correct.
Again, like I tell everyone else who argues with me about this, If you HAVE NOT read them in Aramaic, then HOW can you say that they contradict?
Which, in fact, they do not.
Then translate these literal translations and tell us how this is revelation/Injeel given to Jesus?
Matthew 27 >>
38 Then crucified with him are two robbers, one on the right hand, and one on the left, 39 and those passing by were speaking evil of him, wagging their heads, 40 and saying, 'Thou that art throwing down the sanctuary, and in three days building it, save thyself; if Son thou art of God, come down from the cross.'Mark 15 >>
24 And having crucified him, they were dividing his garments, casting a lot upon them, what each may take; 25 and it was the third hour, and they crucified him;Luke 23 >>
33 and when they came to the place that is called Skull, there they crucified him and the evil-doers, one on the right hand and one on the left.John 19 >>
17 and bearing his cross, he went forth to the place called Place of a Skull, which is called in Hebrew Golgotha; 18 where they crucified him, and with him two others, on this side, and on that side, and Jesus in the midst.Peace
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Quote from Arnab on Today at 121234 PM
But NOT the Gospels in Aramaic? So, then why do you say they are corrupt if you have NEVER read them?
Quote from Samia
Please show me where I said they are corrupt. I do not want arguemnet, just quote my message where I said that.Here it is
Salaam Arnab
Yes, you have to put a sign for each part of your story so that it is twisted to your understanding. The qur'aan tells me to believe in previous scriptures (you did not have to cite all the verses), but it also told me that it had copied what is valid in the qur'aan and replaced what is no more valid by better ones. It did not even mention the fabrications and unnecessary additions (which, of course are to be disregarded, no matter which "religion" they emanate from). The qur'aan tells us about messages, not just from the time of Jesus and Moses, but back from Noah. The message is one, revealed in parts and confirmed in the qur'aan . The qur'aan tells us about what was revealed to Noah and the other messengers down to the last one. Please tell us of ONE imporant and indispensible detail revealed in other scriptures that the qur'aan has overlooked.
Quote from Arnab on Today at 121234 PM
Samia, your not reading what I wrote obviously.The story I quoted was from Idries Shah (in 1964). I did not write it. If you re-read my original thread you will see that.
Second, if you ACTUALLY READ the wiki article you would see that the story has taken on many forms through the years all to relay the SAME message. But those who have trouble understanding analogies will never get it I guess.Quote from Samia
You are neither reading what I wrote, nor are you reading the link of wiki you provided. No matter who quoted the story (from Buhdda to Rumi), they ALL referred to 6 BLIND men, not 4 men and there WAS NO LIGHT. And my response was based on your statement, not the actual story. People can understand the story in many different ways (that's what your link says). But to retell the story with rong details then claim to have reached the same understanding is quite amusing.Samia, it is painfully obvious that you have an inability to understand analogies. I am no longer going to discuss this aspect of the subject with you.
Quote from Arnab on Today at 121234 PM
Because, the Torah is the SAME Torah we have today that Isa had and Muhammad had in their time. The Injeel is the SAME Injeel that Muhammad had. How do I know this? Because we have archeological evidence that these writings are THE SAME. They have been carbon dated and analyzed.
Quote from Samia
Why would God command us to read scriptures in aramaic, an almost dead language?Because, like I?ve said repeatedly, the Gospels were written in Aramaic. Please don?t confuse this with the Torah which should be read in Hebrew.
Quote from Samia
People read translations of the qur'aan and they understand it very well, in spite of the not very accurate translation.That is absolutely untrue. They come away with many misconceptions and misunderstandings when they only read a translation of the Quran. The Quran must be read in Arabic.
Quote from Samia
Why do you insist that people should read those scriptures in their original languages? This means people should not just study the language, but master it.So that they can properly understand what God is commanding.
To free themselves from others biases and untruths in translations.
And to receive a PURE understanding of the teachings of the Prophets.
Once someone relies on translations they are allowing someone else tell them what who and how to believe and they are not relying on God to teach them.
These are only a few reasons.Quote from Samia
I read them in Arabic. It was a comparative study between the OT, the NT and the qur'aan in more than 500 pages.Then you read a translation and not the scriptures in the original language.
Furthermore if it was a book ABOUT the scriptures it was filled with biases. sigh
Quote from Samia
This is just that you stop saying you have not read this you have not read that. Those who read them in their own language are not spared your criticism because "they did not read it in aramaic"!!If they did not read it in ARAMAIC?.the language it was written in?THEN HOW does reading them in THEIR OWN language make any difference? IT IS STILL A TRANSLATION.
Quote from Samia
Why are there so many sects in Christianity? Marriage between them is even not allowed. Do they ALL follow the same injeel? If not, which one follows the "same" injeel revealed to Isa?Why are there so many Muslim sects? Why are there so many Jewish sects? The list can go on and on.
Do you want to discuss scripture or ?what people do??
?People do? all sorts of things that are not commanded to them.
AND they call themselves Christians, Muslims and Jews.We are not discussing what ?PEOPLE DO? because the list of what ?PEOPLE DO? is endless.
Just focus on the scriptures.Quote from Arnab on Today at 121234 PM
You would KNOW where Allah told us to READ other scriptures if you ACTUALLY READ the verses I listed before.
Now you are forgetting your own post? The verses say "believe" not "read". You yourself wrotePart of being a ?believer? is believing in that which is revealed and that which was revealed BEFORE
Samia, don?t be ridiculous. I gave you a HUGE list of verses. Besides, for someone to BELIEVE wouldn't they have to have knowledge of what they were believing?
Quote from Arnab on Today at 121234 PM
Salat is following closely. If you do a word study on the usage in the Quran you would know that.
At last we agree on something. Then what "details of prayer" you are talking about?I am working on a comparison and I will post it in its on thread soon, insha Allah.
Quote from Samia Holy days? Never heard of that!! Nor what to eat during those days
Quote from Arnab on Today at 121234 PM
Well of course you have never heard of it, you limit your study and rely on others to tell you what THEY SAY is not scripture. It doesn't surprise me at all.To which you said in your last post
I am referring to the qur'aan. Don't beat around the bush and stop contradicting yourself
I DID NOT beat around the bush. NOR did I contradict myself. Stop blatantly lying and making slanderous accusations that are untrue.
Does the qur'aan or doesn't it contain details of holy days? If it does, then you were lying, if it does not, then you are lying now.
You aren?t even pay attention to the words in ENGLISH let alone do a competent examination of the Arabic words.
Here is what I said
Quote from Arnab
The KEY WORD in that above statement is DETAIL. The DETAILS for many things are in previous scripture.
Prayer, and observation DETAILS of Holy days to name two very important DETAILS that are in previous scripture. Not to say that the Quran does not mention them. But the DETAILS are in the previous scriptures.
The Quran mentions, refers to and reminds?THE DETAILS (please look up the word, I?m not confident that you understand the meaning) are in the PREVIOUS SCRIPTURE.
Salam,
Arnab -
Here it is
Samia, it is painfully obvious that you have an inability to understand analogies. I am no longer going to discuss this aspect of the subject with you.
Because, like I?ve said repeatedly, the Gospels were written in Aramaic. Please don?t confuse this with the Torah which should be read in Hebrew.
Here is what I said
The Quran mentions, refers to and reminds?THE DETAILS (please look up the word, I?m not confident that you understand the meaning) are in the PREVIOUS SCRIPTURE.Salam,
ArnabSalaam Arnab.
I do not speak or understand Aramic and here in front of me I have The Hebrew Bible in English according to the JPS 1917 Edition, I need your help to understand it properly
Please explain to me this
Genesis Chapter 19, verses 30-38
30 And Lot went up out of Zoar, and dwelt in the mountain, and his two daughters with him; for he feared to dwell in Zoar; and he dwelt in a cave, he and his two daughters. 31 And the first-born said unto the younger 'Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth. 32 Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.' 33 And they made their father drink wine that night. And the first-born went in, and lay with her father; and he knew not when she lay down, nor when she arose. 34 And it came to pass on the morrow, that the first-born said unto the younger 'Behold, I lay yesternight with my father. Let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.' 35 And they made their father drink wine that night also. And the younger arose, and lay with him; and he knew not when she lay down, nor when she arose. 36 Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father. 37 And the first-born bore a son, and called his name Moab--the same is the father of the Moabites unto this day. 38 And the younger, she also bore a son, and called his name Ben-ammi--the same is the father of the children of Ammon unto this day. {S}Are we supposed to believe that prophet Lut impregnated both his daughters or is it different in Aramaic?
Best regards