Trouble with a few verses regarding the Garden
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peace,
I recommend utilising the tools at www.studyquran.org , specifically the word for word, then research upon the root in question.
Also, try the forum search function.
e.g.
Some of these verses have been discussed in the past, one very recently in fact
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9596874.msg174921#msg174921A whole thread on it here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=8627.0 -
I think that somewhere in the Quran when describing this says that it is speaking in images. So the mkistake some people make is a willful one.
What is more beutiful than a beautiful, pure, unspoilt woman? ?What is more endearing, restful for the heart than a humble pure young man?
Are we going to blame the Quran for using the most obvious universally understood images of satisfaction, peace beutay and purity? How low can one fall despising imagination as an stimulous to goodness in this world and in the next.
Of course we all love beautiful pure women, of course we all love humble unconscious of their charm young men... Is it a universal obligation nowadays that when you speak of beaty in one sex or the other that you think about lust? If that is the first thing we are able to come up with when we read those lines, we better not bother at all.
So that is what we will meet in sha Allah in Paradise, purity, humility, umpretentiousness, simplicity, honesty, wish to serve, peace, company, the best company... what is reprehensible in that?
Salaam
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I think that somewhere in the Quran when describing this says that it is speaking in images. So the mkistake some people make is a willful one.
What is more beutiful than a beautiful, pure, unspoilt woman? ?What is more endearing, restful for the heart than a humble pure young man?
Are we going to blame the Quran for using the most obvious universally understood images of satisfaction, peace beutay and purity? How low can one fall despising imagination as an stimulous to goodness in this world and in the next.
Of course we all love beautiful pure women, of course we all love humble unconscious of their charm young men... Is it a universal obligation nowadays that when you speak of beaty in one sex or the other that you think about lust? If that is the first thing we are able to come up with when we read those lines, we better not bother at all.
So that is what we will meet in sha Allah in Paradise, purity, humility, umpretentiousness, simplicity, honesty, wish to serve, peace, company, the best company... what is reprehensible in that?
Salaam
Peace
All throughout the Qur'an the focus is not on VIRGINITY the focus is on CHASTITY. The example being referring to Mohammed's wives, this story of the prophet is an example that differentiation between virgins and non-virgins does not exist. But chaste and non-chaste does however. Read sura 66.
It may be, if he divorced you (all), that Allah will give him in exchange consorts better than you,- who submit (their wills), who believe, who are devout, who turn to Allah in repentance, who worship (in humility), who travel (for Faith) and fast,- previously married or virgins.
665If virginity was on a pedestal or a fitting reward for the believers God would have said "and they will be virgins" but God says "preivously married or virgins" to make clear that what the believers should desire for themselves is RIGHTEOUS companions or PURE natured companions not so called "unspoiled, untouched" women. God mentions the true characteristics that would be better for people, not their breasts or big eyes but their devoutness/humility/steadfastness.
For Muslim men and women,- for believing men and women, for devout men and women, for true men and women, for men and women who are patient and constant, for men and women who humble themselves, for men and women who give in Charity, for men and women who fast (and deny themselves), for men and women who guard their chastity, and for men and women who engage much in Allah's praise,- for them has Allah prepared forgiveness and great reward.
3335No mention of being a virgin. Chastity is restraining from sex outside of wedlock, so you can be sexually experienced from past marriages then divorce and be chaste till your next marriage.
Gardens of perpetual bliss they shall enter there, as well as the righteous among their fathers, their spouses, and their offspring and angels shall enter unto them from every gate (with the salutation)
1323Why would we enter with our righteous spouses and then have voluptuous maidens (if it really says maidens) along with us? I understand the idea of pure spouses, but not pure in the sense of virginity, that is not relevant, that is a temporary status that really has no meaning at all except you have not slept with anyone yet. But pure in the sense of their soul and nature, as you put it. But I do not know what you mean by unspoiled. By the way beauty is in the eye of the beholder, there are many believing cultures where things they observe as beautiful is COMPLETELY different to what we view as beautiful. So what if they do not understand "big eyes" as beautiful?
They will recline (with ease) on Thrones (of dignity) arranged in ranks; and We shall join them to Companions, with beautiful big and lustrous eyes.
5220This appeals to a certain type of demographic who may see that as beautiful, it doesn't have the universal appeal that the rest of the Qur'an does, which is why I ask the question, has meaning been changed in translation? Huruf what do you think about 7833, that doesn't mention beauty or purity at all..and is purely lustful. What you mentioned is completely away from the topic I was mentioning. I said nothing about the characteristics you mentioned in a negative light(humility, purity(of soul), simplicity (?) honesty, wish to serve, peace, company etc) I only mentioned certain ayats and asked what were peoples views on them...
Peace
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Soof,
You leave speechless, where have I mentioned or aluded to virginity. At no time while I wrote my previous post did the concept of virginity cross my mind. Why have you seen virginity where I did not even remotely think of it or mention it?
I spoke of purity, purity is not virginity. An old man can be in this Quranic image terms a beautiful woman. We are talking about qualities that are archetypically described. Certain qualities we can grasp better when presented in the vehicle of some physical image we may evoke.
How did virginity come to figure in this? Vriginity is specifically physiologico-biographical phenomenon. It is not a quality .
Salaam
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Soof,
You leave speechless, where have I mentioned or aluded to virginity. At no time while I wrote my previous post did the concept of virginity cross my mind. Why have you seen virginity where I did not even remotely think of it or mention it?
I spoke of purity, purity is not virginity. An old man can be in this Quranic image terms a beautiful woman. We are talking about qualities that are archetypically described. Certain qualities we can grasp better when presented in the vehicle of some physical image we may evoke.
How did virginity come to figure in this? Vriginity is specifically physiologico-biographical phenomenon. It is not a quality .
Salaam
Ho hum, Again I'm focusing on the Ayats. I ask you what you meant by UNSPOILED you did not answer. If you READ the AYATS I am referring to you would understand why I am focusing on virginty... I am referring to the ayats not your posts brickwall. why are some translations saying that the women will be virginal/untouched by man or jinn/unspoiled do you get my argument now???
Sorry I do not agree with any archetype in the Qur'an, it is a universal message, that describes some local things Arabs know (dates, camels, desert etc) to represent a larger understanding. But the Garden is something every body strives for, so the meaning of the Garden is universal, the idea of having big lustruous eyes(what about CHINESE people, are they not BEAUTIFUL because they don't have big eyes?), or large breasts is not a universal message. Especially for women and many different races around the world.
Peace
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Soof, salaam
I think most of your objections in fact rest on translations, because I find much of what you say unfounded, but then I remember that precisely those terms and situations have been a great prey of tranlationitis. The large breast leave speechless. I really do not have a recollection of such a thing, until excavating in my memory now I seem to recall having read criticism regarding the choice of large breasts to translate a word which happened to have that as one of its meanings, but which was not warrnted in the case at hand. Theace untouched part, look at it another way... even a virgin, man or woman, is touched by the world. We are all touched, but by God's we may become all untouched, as if we had never suffered disapointment, failure, ugliness, disrespect... All those things and many more leave marks...
About the universality of humans features, I think you may have also been lead by a certain translation. On the other hand, I am sure there are chinese eyes just as those meant in the Quran, and almond shaped ones is a praised thing in every culture I think.
I think all muslims, and particularly converts have gone through a stringent examination of all these recurrent non muslim criticism of the Quran. May be I am already beyond that now and can see what the Quran says untainted by corrosive prejudice (previous judgment) and sincerely, I think the description of Paradise in the Quran is inspiring like o other I know. Humans can be sublime, the body may be the mirror of the soul, of the polished qualities or not, but beauty is beauty and we all can recognize it when aptly described, and when you take the description in the Quran altogether, it is beauty, inner and outward peace, companionship, sincerity, purity, openness...
May be we are relaying today too much on physical beauty because we have the means to get it at will and it is almost a duty to be good-looking, and we may be missing the beauty that comes from character, that touches you deeply because it is so genuine, guileless and humble... and that will come through no matter what physical shape you lend it. I have known some young men such as could be described as those of Paradise... Just o know they exist is... Paradise. So, as the Quran says, indeed we will realise, if we are blessed, that what is in Paradise we already knew...
Salaam -
Soof, salaam
I think most of your objections in fact rest on translations, because I find much of what you say unfounded, but then I remember that precisely those terms and situations have been a great prey of tranlationitis. The large breast leave speechless. I really do not have a recollection of such a thing, until excavating in my memory now I seem to recall having read criticism regarding the choice of large breasts to translate a word which happened to have that as one of its meanings, but which was not warrnted in the case at hand. Theace untouched part, look at it another way... even a virgin, man or woman, is touched by the world. We are all touched, but by God's we may become all untouched, as if we had never suffered disapointment, failure, ugliness, disrespect... All those things and many more leave marks...
About the universality of humans features, I think you may have also been lead by a certain translation. On the other hand, I am sure there are chinese eyes just as those meant in the Quran, and almond shaped ones is a praised thing in every culture I think.
I think all muslims, and particularly converts have gone through a stringent examination of all these recurrent non muslim criticism of the Quran. May be I am already beyond that now and can see what the Quran says untainted by corrosive prejudice (previous judgment) and sincerely, I think the description of Paradise in the Quran is inspiring like o other I know. Humans can be sublime, the body may be the mirror of the soul, of the polished qualities or not, but beauty is beauty and we all can recognize it when aptly described, and when you take the description in the Quran altogether, it is beauty, inner and outward peace, companionship, sincerity, purity, openness...
May be we are relaying today too much on physical beauty because we have the means to get it at will and it is almost a duty to be good-looking, and we may be missing the beauty that comes from character, that touches you deeply because it is so genuine, guileless and humble... and that will come through no matter what physical shape you lend it. I have known some young men such as could be described as those of Paradise... Just o know they exist is... Paradise. So, as the Quran says, indeed we will realise, if we are blessed, that what is in Paradise we already knew...
SalaamOk, Peace
Well of course it rests on translations. I only speak english right now. How can you say what I am saying is unfounded when I gave you the ayats, all you need to do is go to www.searchquran.org read the ayats I mentioned in the different translations, and see that SOME use words such as voluptuous/swollen breasts, big, lustruous eyes, virginal/untouched by man or jinn. If you can speak Arabic then please give me your understanding of the ayats I have mentioned. If not then what has caused you to overlook these ayats and say they are unfounded, what other meaning did you take from the ayats I mentioned?
Almond shaped eyes are praised in every culture? I'm not sure I agre with that. So epicanthic eyes are not "praiseworthy" or beautiful in other cultures? How can you speak for every culture? God does not make distinctions between us, only on our belief/devoutness/piety are we separated. He says we are made in different colours and cultures so we can get to know one another. What I'm saying is this statement negates superficiality whereas some descriptions in the translation of the Qur'an of the Garden are superficial, which is why I believe the Arabic Qur'an holds more meaning behind what I have problems about, but when it is translated, Men twist the words to their own desires. I agree with what you are saying, I just have more of a problem with the descriptions of the Garden than you.
Peace
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Salaam Soof,
I understand you. I know you do not have to take my word for it, but for whatever it is worth relax. There is nothing dirty or lusty or vain in these descriptions of the Qur'aan. You will get to have peace of mind on this account, but of course, you have to satisfy yourself, which is commendable and very quranical.
78.33
Yusuf Ali
Companions of equal ageMuhammad Asad
and splendid companions well matchedSher Ali
and young maidens of equal ageThose are translations printed I have at hand. The bossoms thing, I haven't come across except as mentioned by somebody, which now I realise is Assad.
For me the weakest of this three translations is the third, for one thing, I do not see in the Arabic any hint that it is talking about feminine beings. If you can get hold of an Assad with notes you will see an extensive explanation. But this turning the glorious companions into Jane Mansfields for people in want of orientalism cum sexual consumism reminds me of a resume in a TV program of a film featuring ... what was her name? an ex of Stallone, which (the program) said "the only outstanding thing in the film are the silicone t... of ...-now I remember- Birgit Nielsen". Well, in this case of Quranic (mis)translation we seem to be facing somebody for whom whatever is outstanding must needs be a woman's breast. Mind you men also have outstanding features, but those didn't occur to the translator, which says a lot about the translator, but not much about Paradise.
I will go over other ayas, in sha Allah, when I get over this outstandingness. There is so much of it one can take in one go, and also, more seriously, I need more time and mental strength than I can muster right now.
Salaam
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I do not see in the Arabic any hint that it is talking about feminine beings.
Peace.
From what I believe, you are correct. This verse (7833) is speaking of well-matched/balanced spouses/companions - it's reference is to males and females. The other verses say
5556 - "...beautiful mates unknown to human or jinn."
5570 - "In them are beautiful mates."
5622,23 - "Beautiful mates, like sheltered pearls."
5634-38 - "Luxurious furnishings, we create for them mates, never previously touched, perfectly matched."Peace,
Ahmad
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Peace.
From what I believe, you are correct. This verse (7833) is speaking of well-matched/balanced spouses/companions - it's reference is to males and females. The other verses say
5556 - "...beautiful mates unknown to human or jinn."
5570 - "In them are beautiful mates."
5622,23 - "Beautiful mates, like sheltered pearls."
5634-38 - "Luxurious furnishings, we create for them mates, never previously touched, perfectly matched."Peace,
Ahmad
( ( ( (
In them will be (Maidens), chaste, restraining their glances, whom no man or
Jinn before them has touched (55-56)The bolded arabic word (Feheen) can only be used for Females
Like unto rubies and coral. (55-5
The word "like" is a translation for the arabic word "KaAnhoon", which only can refer to Females.
They will recline (with ease) on Thrones (of dignity) arranged in ranks; and We shall join them to Companions, with beautiful big and lustrous eyes.
5220This appeals to a certain type of demographic who may see that as beautiful, it doesn't have the universal appeal that the rest of the Qur'an does, which is why I ask the question, has meaning been changed in translation?
Soof, why do humans (I mean all humans) call something beautiful?
Why do Humans (I mean all humans) call something Ugly?
In other words, what is the common thing that makes humans Like or Dislike a Stimulus (any thing that human can sense using their five senses)?
I have the answer, but I will share through thread (please forgive me if my answer would be late--I have a full time Job in the USA).
Peace
