Was the Qur'an the Only Revelation That The Prophet Received From Allah
-
Peace Albruni,
Ask yourself these questions....
How come the Islamic year is 354 days? Which is 11 days shorter than the solar year?
1712
We appointed the night and the day as two signs. Then, We blotted out the sign of the night and made the sign of the day to see, so that you seek the bounty of your Lord and that you know the number of years and the reckoning. And We have clearly distinguished everything.Can Ramadan be in winter some years? (1996-1999)
And in the summer some years? (2008-2012)
Does the concept of different sects make sense? I believe they differ over who to follow? Sunnis idolize Muhammed, and the shiites do their 12 imams and the family of Muhammed.
Look at the state of the Islamic countries today!!?!?!?
No human rights,
Stone-age laws!
Racism!
Sexual Discrimintation!
Fighting between sunnis and shiites.
Shall I give you examples? I can cite examples that occur today, in Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates. I'm sure you are aware of them!
If muslims are indeed following the Straight Path, their state of living would by far exceed the excellence in Europe which is now one community. Working together to make better living conditions for their citizens.
Unfortunately, because Shaitan leads their (European Union) lives, they will cause their own destruction; like
They do not pay Sadaqah (form of Zakat)
Giving homosexuals the rights to adopt kids.
Their corruption will come from inside their own community.
The Islamic counties' corruption has already started.
Hundreds of thousands are fleeing to Europe and States where they are treated like HUMAN BEINGS. Freedom of speech, freedom of religion.
I can go on and on.
Ask yourself those questions.
I hope you are not truly happy with the way things are running/going in Islamic countries these days, and especially the Arab counties.
The Straight Path is far from this.
The Straight Path does not ask us to choose what we follow (choose Sahih over Weak)
The Straight Path does not ask humans (scholars) to decide what we need to do
The Straight Path is detailed in the one Book of Guidance that we have.
I am not going to go into detail in the discussion because I know that if you open your mind you will come to the right conclusion!
Regards
Ramzi
-
Peace "albruni",
Salam Jonny,
If my father died it doesn?t mean that he is not my father , Though the Quran refers to past events it doesn?t mean that he will not be a messenger anymore... Of course we do agree Jesus was a messenger, is a messenger and will be remain as messenger ,Muhammad is the seal of Prophet so there are no more messenger but that doesn?t mean that a messenger before Muhammad will not be the messenger when he again come. Messenger is a person who comes with message from god since the religion is complete there is no need to bring any new message.
How can you say that those revelation are not meant for us ??? It is protected in Scriptures (Hadhis), which god has done. Your basic qs are baseless. God Bless!JK- The example of the title "father" is very different from the title "messenger". Muhammad wasnt even a messenger 24/7 as can be seen in 3337. If he had been a messenger at tht point then Zeid mustve obeyed that statement but obviously it was not meant to be so.
ALSO dont you believe that Muhammad was the last messenger? Because here you are saying that messengers before Muhammad will be messengers when he they come again as in Jesus. So youve just spoken against one of the basic dogmas in hadith "islam".
LAST but not least if hadith are protected then there should be a COMPLETE scripture containing only sahih hadith preserved by GOD so we dont have to pick and choose. THAT IS NOT THE CASE as i can point out a bunch of absurd and scientifically inaccurate hadith from Sahih Bukhari and Muslim allegedly the two most authentic collections. GOD Bless! -
Peace Albruni,
Ask yourself these questions....
How come the Islamic year is 354 days? Which is 11 days shorter than the solar year?
1712
We appointed the night and the day as two signs. Then, We blotted out the sign of the night and made the sign of the day to see, so that you seek the bounty of your Lord and that you know the number of years and the reckoning. And We have clearly distinguished everything.Can Ramadan be in winter some years? (1996-1999)
And in the summer some years? (2008-2012)
Peace Ramzi,
The following Quranic verse entails the use of the lunar calendar as the calendar to be followed by Muslims
"He it is who appointed the sun a splendor and the moon a light and measured for her stages, that ye might know the number of the years, and the reckoning." (Surah10 Verse 5)
"They ask thee concerning the New Moons. Say They are but signs to make fixed periods of time in (the affairs of) men, and for Pilgrimage." (Surah 2 Verse 189)
The number of months in each year as directed by Allah was to be 12 as shown in the following verse
"Lo! The number of the months with Allah is twelve months by Allah's ordinance in the day that He created the heavens and the earth." (Surah 9 Verse 36)
The Qur'an,states that time should be reckoned by the moon,Thus we do the same.
Moreover the solar year is not 365.25 days long but 365.2422 days long. This tiny extra fraction of .0078 days a year adds up to approximately three days every four centuries.On timescales of thousands of years, the Gregorian calendar falls behind the seasons drastically because the slowing down of the Earth's rotation makes each day slightly longer over time while the year maintains a more uniform duration. The equinox will occur earlier than now by a number of days approximately equal to ^2. This is a problem that the Gregorian calendar shares with any rule-based calendar.
Does the concept of different sects make sense? I believe they differ over who to follow? Sunnis idolize Muhammed, and the shiites do their 12 imams and the family of Muhammed.
Look at the state of the Islamic countries today!!?!?!?
No human rights,
Stone-age laws!
Racism!
Sexual Discrimintation!
Fighting between sunnis and shiites.
Shall I give you examples? I can cite examples that occur today, in Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates. I'm sure you are aware of them!
If muslims are indeed following the Straight Path, their state of living would by far exceed the excellence in Europe which is now one community. Working together to make better living conditions for their citizens.
Unfortunately, because Shaitan leads their (European Union) lives, they will cause their own destruction; like
They do not pay Sadaqah (form of Zakat)
Giving homosexuals the rights to adopt kids.
Their corruption will come from inside their own community.
The Islamic counties' corruption has already started.
Hundreds of thousands are fleeing to Europe and States where they are treated like HUMAN BEINGS. Freedom of speech, freedom of religion.
I can go on and on.
Ask yourself those questions.
I hope you are not truly happy with the way things are running/going in Islamic countries these days, and especially the Arab counties.
The Straight Path is far from this.
The Straight Path does not ask us to choose what we follow (choose Sahih over Weak)
The Straight Path does not ask humans (scholars) to decide what we need to do
The Straight Path is detailed in the one Book of Guidance that we have.
I am not going to go into detail in the discussion because I know that if you open your mind you will come to the right conclusion!
Well, What you have said is right..... But it doesn?t mean that following the hadhis has made this sects even the Quran alone followers have different of opinion ...Thing is that what we have follow is to decide be almighty god and as he have clearly mentioned to follow the word of god (Quran) and the explanation given to Quran by the messenger(Not by his own will but a separate revelation by god apart from Quran) (Hadhis)
(2527)The day will come when the transgressor will bite his hands (in anguish) and say, "Alas, I wish I had followed the path with the messenger.
461 -- When it is said to them "Come to what God hath revealed, and to the Apostle" Thou seest the Hypocrites avert their faces from thee in disgust.
4150-151 -- Those who disbelieve in All?h and His Messengers, and desire to make separation between All?h and His Messengers and say, "We believe in some and disbelieve in some," desiring to adopt a way in between this and that? those are the unbelievers in truth; and We have prepared for the disbelievers a humiliating punishment.
Ask yourself these questions
Do you want to make separation between Allaha and his messenger by saying you believe in Quran and disbelieve in Hadhis ?
and for your question the answer is - Those who idolize Muhammad or following there own desire they are indeed in a wrong path and they will face hell.
I follow the word of god (Quran) and follow the teachings of the messenger of God (Hadhis) which is preserved in a scientific way.
"Allah did confer a great favour on the Believers when He sent among them a Messenger from among themselves, rehearsing unto them the Signs (Verses) of Allah, purifying them, instructing them in Scripture, and teaching them Wisdom. While before that they were in manifest error." .
May God Guide us in the right path...
-
Peace "albruni",
JK- The example of the title "father" is very different from the title "messenger". Muhammad wasnt even a messenger 24/7 as can be seen in 3337. If he had been a messenger at tht point then Zeid mustve obeyed that statement but obviously it was not meant to be so.
ALSO dont you believe that Muhammad was the last messenger? Because here you are saying that messengers before Muhammad will be messengers when he they come again as in Jesus. So youve just spoken against one of the basic dogmas in hadith "islam".
LAST but not least if hadith are protected then there should be a COMPLETE scripture containing only sahih hadith preserved by GOD so we dont have to pick and choose. THAT IS NOT THE CASE as i can point out a bunch of absurd and scientifically inaccurate hadith from Sahih Bukhari and Muslim allegedly the two most authentic collections. GOD Bless!Salam Brother,
father is a person who is blessed with a child and as a human being is blessed with prophet hood is a messenger.
3337 being a messenger and humanbeing he did small mistakes which has been corrected by god - Its not that messengers will not do mistakes they did as all humanbeing but not major sins as they are protected by god otherwise there is no need of sending a human as a messenger, The messenger have no divine knowledge or they can do on there own, its god who teach them to deliver it to the mankind.
Not only Jesus all the messengers will remain messengers even in hereafter, Its a honor given by god to the messengers do believe that Muhammad was the last messenger as i stated before in my post and Jesus will also remain as a messenger but the difference is he will not deliver any new message as the religion is complete and there is no need to add in the religion.
Hadith - Its a way of preservation, if you only compile the truth then it will easy for anybody to add.
The scholars collected all the Hadith so that no body can blame that they have left some Hadith.For the questions about the compilation of Quran you said you can prove with the numerical pattern based on no.19 show me how its correct?
The Questions are - Where does it say in the Quran that Surah Al Baqarah must come after Al Fatihah?
Where does it say in the Quran that Surah An Nas (Qulauzubirabinnas) must be the last Surah (chapter) in the Quran?
Where does it say in the Quran that ?alhamdulillahirabilalamin(0101)? must come before ?Ar Rahman Ar Rahim(0102)??
Where does it say in the Quran that there must be 114 Surah (Chapters) in the Quran?
Where does it say in the Quran that ?Qulhuwallahuahad (11201) must come before ?Allahusamad(11202)? -
Peace Albruni
Thanks for the reply!
Please read Layth's article on Calendars and Time. http//www.free-minds.org/articles/science/calendars.htm
Below is a summary of what has been explained above
The year according to the Scripture is Luni-Solar (1712, 105).
The months begin with the full moon (2189, 3639).
The solar year has 4 markers that can be measured (2 solstices, 2 equinoxes).
After a count of 12 lunar months, if a 13th full moon appears before the winter solstice, then such a month is to be ignored and counted as 'month zero'. This average occurrence of this extra month is 7 times every 19 solar years.
(I removed the part about Laylat AlQadr and Ramadhan because that is a different topic).
Ask yourself these questions
Do you want to make separation between Allaha and his messenger by saying you believe in Quran and disbelieve in Hadhis ?
Albruni,
I am not separating between God and His messenger in any way. Unfortunately, you still believe that Hadiths are the words of our messenger. They are not.
When someone disproves a Hadith to you... or indeed shows that it contradicts Quran, you will not see it, because you have the firm belief that the hadiths are the true word of your messenger and can not be wrong. If you open your eyes a little and see that the true words of your messenger are in the Quran, you will feel no discomfort at all disregarding the words of Bukhary and others.
Now, Hadiths do make things easy for us, some say it compliments the quran.... (Pillars of Islam, and Pillars of Iyman)...... they answer many of our questions, teach us the right way to do things to gain hasanat and so on. For example,
3an Abi Hurairah (Raddiyah Allahu 3anhu), Kkal, kkala Rassolu Allahi (Sallallaahu 3alaihi Wassallam)
"Min 7osni Islami AlMar2u, tarkuhu ma la ya3neeh."
Rawahu AttirmeethiI will try and translate this to "A good submitter, ignores what is of no concern to him/her"
Nice words, and good advice. But does that mean ALL are right?
What about when we get to the lashings for adultey?
1 Surah Number 24, Ayah Number 2
You shall lash the fornicatress and the fornicator each with a hundred lashes. In the religion of Allah, let no tenderness for them seize you if you believe in Allah and the Last Day; and let their punishment be witnessed by a party of believers.Ask your friends, or indeed your imam at your mosque regarding the Hadith and Sunnah about this topic....... his story will probably go along these lines....
"Ahh yes, but what about the married adulterer and the unmarried adulterer? Their punishments cannot be the same? An unmarried man/woman is usually young in the prime of their life, controlled by hormones and emotions,..... is their punishment similar to the one who is in a lawful marriage, and has a responsisbility to his/her partner?
That is why we need Hadith/Sunnah to explain this... (You cannot understand Quran without them). You lash the unmarried, and stone to death the married. just like how our prophet did.
And what about the method of lashing? Do you use steel? Wood? Leather? Rope?
How do you lash? 2 metres away? Pivoting from your shoulder? Or the arm must be still and only the elbow pivots?
How must the adulterer stand? or must he sit? or must he be face down?
The answers to all these are in Hadith/Sunnah......."
Now this is changing God's words
God did not differentiate between married and unmarried adulterer's? Or did he? Am I missing a verse or something? (Honest question, no sarcasm)
Why stop there? Here is one............ The person who lashes must be facing Ka'aba when lashing.
What is wrong with that?
The answer to all those questions is common sense........ God will not tell you every single detail.... (the classic example of how do you build a computer if you say the Quran is complete)....
You will not lash with a pillow, nor with burning metal.... It is not common sense to lash till the person is one inch from his life after the 8th lash. It is for the public to see and therefore to shame the person and to strike fear in the others when seeing the punishment of adultery!
Now, the sunni today will say, but this argument is pointless, no one stones to death an adulterer. But it is in the books. If you sit down for 30 minutes you can disprove it, and show that there is NO WAY our prophet did this, as it would have contradicted the Quran!
Now who is disrespecting the prophet? Me, who does not want to acknowledge Hadith, or the people who wrote them in the first place?
Brother Albruni,
if you disprove one hadith, you have to disregard them all. It is not for you to CHOOSE what to follow nor for a scholar or imam to choose for you!
It is hard, and I am struggling. but I ask God for patience and to show me the Straight Path.
I suggest reading the articles on this website.
Or another suggestion....... Out of all the discussions you have on this topic, take the arguments against you that you find valid and worth answering, and use them against your imam/friend/scholar. and see if the answers you get satisfy you.
I think the main difference between me and you is that
I believe I can understand Quran myself, by reading, cross referencing, looking up roots and applying to the whole Quran to see if it fits.
Now I can see some problems arising in the future, like
Who is Abu Lahab? Who are Ashaab AlFeel?
But does that mean I will have to go back to Hadith to find the answer? Or is this History that I might have to study? Or are they symbols?
I wil tackle each problem as it comes along. Asking God for patience and hoping He doesn;t wish otherwise.
On a final note. I strongly suggest reading...... http//www.free-minds.org/articles/history/ayman1.htm
Hopefully, this will paint the widest picture possible for you, and you might wake up a little.
Special thanks to the authors of all articles on Free Minds, I am not agreeing that everything is 100%, but I appreciate the effort that has gone into them! They certainly make me think, and make me want to seek more knowledge!
Regards
Ramzi
-
For the questions about the compilation of Quran you said you can prove with the numerical pattern based on no.19 show me how its correct?
The Questions are - Where does it say in the Quran that Surah Al Baqarah must come after Al Fatihah?
Where does it say in the Quran that Surah An Nas (Qulauzubirabinnas) must be the last Surah (chapter) in the Quran?
Where does it say in the Quran that ?alhamdulillahirabilalamin(0101)? must come before ?Ar Rahman Ar Rahim(0102)??
Where does it say in the Quran that there must be 114 Surah (Chapters) in the Quran?
Where does it say in the Quran that ?Qulhuwallahuahad (11201) must come before ?Allahusamad(11202)?The Quran even/odd or binary (0/1) structure cannot be replicated by man or machine -- move, delete, or change one chapter, verse, etc., and it falls apart and uses checksums same as computer systems to ensure the message arrives intact, in order, and uncorrupted with exactly 114 chapters and 6236 verses including all of chapter 91-129...
Quran - 893
WaalshshafAAi waalwatri
And/by the even, and the odd.60 Even verses = 30 even-even + 30 odd-even
54 Odd verses = 27 odd-odd + 27 even-odd
Surah #Verses S+V 57 Even 57 Odd
1............7............8............8...........
2..........286..........288..........288...........
3..........200..........203.....................203
4..........176..........180..........180...........
5..........120..........125.....................125
6..........165..........171.....................171
7..........206..........213.....................213
8...........75...........83......................83
9..........129..........138..........138...........
10.........109..........119.....................119
11.........123..........134..........134...........
12.........111..........123.....................123
13..........43...........56...........56...........
14..........52...........66...........66...........
15..........99..........114..........114...........
16.........128..........144..........144...........
17.........111..........128..........128...........
18.........110..........128..........128...........
19..........98..........117.....................117
20.........135..........155.....................155
21.........112..........133.....................133
22..........78..........100..........100...........
23.........118..........141.....................141
24..........64...........88...........88...........
25..........77..........102..........102...........
26.........227..........253.....................253
27..........93..........120..........120...........
28..........88..........116..........116...........
29..........69...........98...........98...........
30..........60...........90...........90...........
31..........34...........65......................65
32..........30...........62...........62..........
33..........73..........106..........106..........
34..........54...........88...........88..........
35..........45...........80...........80..........
36..........83..........119.....................119
37.........182..........219.....................219
38..........88..........126..........126...........
39..........75..........114..........114..........
40..........85..........125.....................125
41..........54...........95......................95
42..........53...........95......................95
43..........89..........132..........132...........
44..........59..........103.....................103
45..........37...........82...........82...........
46..........35...........81......................81
47..........38...........85......................85
48..........29...........77......................77
49..........18...........67......................67
50..........45...........95......................95
51..........60..........111.....................111
52..........49..........101.....................101
53..........62..........115.....................115
54..........55..........109.....................109
55..........78..........133.....................133
56..........96..........152..........152...........
57..........29...........86...........86...........1-57...................6757.....3126......3631 <--------1st checksum 1st half
6757 3126 3631 = 19 x 3556480334958..........22...........80...........80..........
59..........24...........83......................83
60..........13...........73......................73
61..........14...........75......................75
62..........11...........73......................73
63..........11...........74...........74..........
64..........18...........82...........82..........
65..........12...........77......................77
66..........12...........78...........78..........
67..........30...........97......................97
68..........52..........120..........120..........
69..........52..........121.....................121
70..........44..........114..........114..........
71..........28...........99......................99
72..........28..........100..........100..........
73..........20...........93......................93
74..........56..........130..........130..........
75..........40..........115.....................115
76..........31..........107.....................107
77..........50..........127.....................127
78..........40..........118..........118..........
79..........46..........125.....................125
80..........42..........122..........122..........
81..........29..........110..........110..........
82..........19..........101.....................101
83..........36..........119.....................119
84..........25..........109.....................109
85..........22..........107.....................107
86..........17..........103.....................103
87..........19..........106..........106..........
88..........26..........114..........114..........
89..........30..........119.....................119
90..........20..........110..........110..........
91..........15..........106..........106..........
92..........21..........113.....................113
93..........11..........104..........104..........
94...........8..........102..........102..........
95...........8..........103.....................103
96..........19..........115.....................115
97...........5..........102..........102..........
98...........8..........106..........106..........
99...........8..........107.....................107
100.........11..........111.....................111
101.........11..........112..........112..........
102..........8..........110..........110..........
103..........3..........106..........106..........
104..........9..........113.....................113
105..........5..........110..........110..........
106..........4..........110..........110..........
107..........7..........114..........114..........
108..........3..........111.....................111
109..........6..........115.....................115
110..........3..........113.....................113
111..........5..........116..........116..........
112..........4..........116..........116..........
113..........5..........118..........118..........
114..........6..........120..........120..........58-114............6034.......3110.......2924 <-------- middle checksum 2nd half
3110 6034 2924 = 19 x 16371596996Totals 1-114
Surah... #Verses... S+V... 57 Even... 57 Odd
1.............7............8............8.......... .
114..........6..........120.........120..........6555.......6236.....12791...6236.....6555 <-------- last checksum totals
6236 6555 12791 = 19 x 328245026989
6555 = 19 x 345
12791 is a prime number as is 19 which makes the Quran structure unique.
There appears to be a similar even/odd binary structure for each individual chapter with number of words as well which I'll need to investigate further although the above should be simple and sufficient enough as proof.
Peace
-
The Quran even/odd or binary (0/1) structure cannot be replicated by man or machine -- move, delete, or change one chapter, verse, etc., and it falls apart and uses checksums same as computer systems to ensure the message arrives intact, in order, and uncorrupted with exactly 114 chapters and 6236 verses including all of chapter 91-129...
Quran - 893
WaalshshafAAi waalwatri
And/by the even, and the odd.60 Even verses = 30 even-even + 30 odd-even
54 Odd verses = 27 odd-odd + 27 even-odd
Surah #Verses S+V 57 Even 57 Odd
1............7............8............8...........
2..........286..........288..........288...........
3..........200..........203.....................203
4..........176..........180..........180...........
5..........120..........125.....................125
6..........165..........171.....................171
7..........206..........213.....................213
8...........75...........83......................83
9..........129..........138..........138...........
10.........109..........119.....................119
11.........123..........134..........134...........
12.........111..........123.....................123
13..........43...........56...........56...........
14..........52...........66...........66...........
15..........99..........114..........114...........
16.........128..........144..........144...........
17.........111..........128..........128...........
18.........110..........128..........128...........
19..........98..........117.....................117
20.........135..........155.....................155
21.........112..........133.....................133
22..........78..........100..........100...........
23.........118..........141.....................141
24..........64...........88...........88...........
25..........77..........102..........102...........
26.........227..........253.....................253
27..........93..........120..........120...........
28..........88..........116..........116...........
29..........69...........98...........98...........
30..........60...........90...........90...........
31..........34...........65......................65
32..........30...........62...........62..........
33..........73..........106..........106..........
34..........54...........88...........88..........
35..........45...........80...........80..........
36..........83..........119.....................119
37.........182..........219.....................219
38..........88..........126..........126...........
39..........75..........114..........114..........
40..........85..........125.....................125
41..........54...........95......................95
42..........53...........95......................95
43..........89..........132..........132...........
44..........59..........103.....................103
45..........37...........82...........82...........
46..........35...........81......................81
47..........38...........85......................85
48..........29...........77......................77
49..........18...........67......................67
50..........45...........95......................95
51..........60..........111.....................111
52..........49..........101.....................101
53..........62..........115.....................115
54..........55..........109.....................109
55..........78..........133.....................133
56..........96..........152..........152...........
57..........29...........86...........86...........1-57...................6757.....3126......3631 <--------1st checksum 1st half
6757 3126 3631 = 19 x 3556480334958..........22...........80...........80..........
59..........24...........83......................83
60..........13...........73......................73
61..........14...........75......................75
62..........11...........73......................73
63..........11...........74...........74..........
64..........18...........82...........82..........
65..........12...........77......................77
66..........12...........78...........78..........
67..........30...........97......................97
68..........52..........120..........120..........
69..........52..........121.....................121
70..........44..........114..........114..........
71..........28...........99......................99
72..........28..........100..........100..........
73..........20...........93......................93
74..........56..........130..........130..........
75..........40..........115.....................115
76..........31..........107.....................107
77..........50..........127.....................127
78..........40..........118..........118..........
79..........46..........125.....................125
80..........42..........122..........122..........
81..........29..........110..........110..........
82..........19..........101.....................101
83..........36..........119.....................119
84..........25..........109.....................109
85..........22..........107.....................107
86..........17..........103.....................103
87..........19..........106..........106..........
88..........26..........114..........114..........
89..........30..........119.....................119
90..........20..........110..........110..........
91..........15..........106..........106..........
92..........21..........113.....................113
93..........11..........104..........104..........
94...........8..........102..........102..........
95...........8..........103.....................103
96..........19..........115.....................115
97...........5..........102..........102..........
98...........8..........106..........106..........
99...........8..........107.....................107
100.........11..........111.....................111
101.........11..........112..........112..........
102..........8..........110..........110..........
103..........3..........106..........106..........
104..........9..........113.....................113
105..........5..........110..........110..........
106..........4..........110..........110..........
107..........7..........114..........114..........
108..........3..........111.....................111
109..........6..........115.....................115
110..........3..........113.....................113
111..........5..........116..........116..........
112..........4..........116..........116..........
113..........5..........118..........118..........
114..........6..........120..........120..........58-114............6034.......3110.......2924 <-------- middle checksum 2nd half
3110 6034 2924 = 19 x 16371596996Totals 1-114
Surah... #Verses... S+V... 57 Even... 57 Odd
1.............7............8............8.......... .
114..........6..........120.........120..........6555.......6236.....12791...6236.....6555 <-------- last checksum totals
6236 6555 12791 = 19 x 328245026989
6555 = 19 x 345
12791 is a prime number as is 19 which makes the Quran structure unique.
There appears to be a similar even/odd binary structure for each individual chapter with number of words as well which I'll need to investigate further although the above should be simple and sufficient enough as proof.
Salam Brother,
To prove the Quran is God word it doesnt need any Checksums method there are various signs of god in quran which prove that the quran is god word and if there is a checksum method then why the propet not explained it?
Even the calcualation what you have done is not logical.
1.Why to want to divide the Quran in 2 parts each 57 - Where is the proof to do so in quran ?
2.Is this a right way to calculate ?
E.G If you have barrowed money from me
Day Morning Noon Night
1 10 20 30
2 10 20 30
3 10 20 30Total 30 60 90
and if I ask you to pay 306090 will it be fare ? Will anybody accept? Is this the right way to trust Quran.
3.You have mention 6555 = 19 x 345 what about other numbers 6757/19? 3126/19? 3631/19? 3110/19? 6034/19? 2924/19? 6236/19? 12791/19? why you haven?t taken those numbers?Is it because it will not divisible by 19 ,please be fare on your part.
- Moreover when you enter the S+V value you keep changing the position to first ,middle and last why to want to change the S+V position - its just because you want to bring the result as you desire?
5.Are you going to follow the same structure i.e. take the chapter divide in half ,sum the odd and even number etc.,I strongly dought you will not because you can't - It means your are following your own desire or blind following.
4150-151 -- Those who disbelieve in All?h and His Messengers, and desire to make separation between All?h and His Messengers and say, "We believe in some and disbelieve in some," desiring to adopt a way in between this and that? those are the unbelievers in truth; and We have prepared for the disbelievers a humiliating punishment.
Salam.
-
Salam Albruni,
To prove the Quran is God word it doesnt need any Checksums method there are various signs of god in quran which prove that the quran is god word and if there is a checksum method then why the propet not explained it?
Quran?s structure is one proof (arrangement of ayats) and was explained by reciting it as such. Similar to the big bang creation of universe and things we've yet to discover.
Even the calcualation what you have done is not logical.
Sure it?s logical ? BINARY, EVEN/ODD, TRUE/FALSE, IF THEN ELSE.
That is the key difference between humans and animals -- we have the capacity to see it...
Binary Code In The Quran
http//muslim-defence.com/Documents/BinaryCodeWorksheet.xlsx1.Why to want to divide the Quran in 2 parts each 57 - Where is the proof to do so in quran ?
Here's a nice summary of the balance and symmetry...
http//www.simetrikkitap.com/subject1.pdf2.Is this a right way to calculate ?
E.G If you have barrowed money from me
Day Morning Noon Night
1 10 20 30
2 10 20 30
3 10 20 30Total 30 60 90
and if I ask you to pay 306090 will it be fare ? Will anybody accept? Is this the right way to trust Quran.
No idea why you posted the above, this is about Quran?s structure not finance.
3.You have mention 6555 = 19 x 345 what about other numbers 6757/19? 3126/19? 3631/19? 3110/19? 6034/19? 2924/19? 6236/19? 12791/19? why you haven?t taken those numbers?Is it because it will not divisible by 19 ,please be fare on your part.
That?s how checksums work and NOT everything has to divisible by 19. When you type a post; algorithms do a checksum, send data along with checksum, and after arrival at the other end the checksum is computed/compared to see if the message arrived error free.
That is basic summary which encryption works a similar way with a ?key? to unlock data.
Do you see the perfect symmetry?
It?s like looking at a beautifully constructed building to house the words?Surah... #Verses... S+V... 57 Even... 57 Odd
1............7...............8............8.............
2..........286..........288..........288..........
3..........200..........203.....................20 3
....
110..........3..........113.....................11 3
111..........5..........116..........116..........
112..........4..........116..........116..........
113..........5..........118..........118..........
114..........6..........120..........120..........6555.......6236....12791........6236......6555
1788 Say "If the whole of mankind and Jinns were to gather together to produce the like of this Qur'an, they could not produce the like thereof, even if they backed up each other with help and support.
Perhaps I?ll ask the guys who run Blue Jinn/Gene to try and produce a similar structure?
https//asc.llnl.gov/computing_resources/bluegenel/images/bgl_exp.jpg
- Moreover when you enter the S+V value you keep changing the position to first ,middle and last why to want to change the S+V position - its just because you want to bring the result as you desire?
No, look closely its 1st checksum 1st, mid checksum 2nd, last checksum 3rd ? perfect logic!
6757 3126 3631 = 19 x 35564803349
3110 6034 2924 = 19 x 16371596996
6236 6555 12791 = 19 x 328245026989
5.Are you going to follow the same structure i.e. take the chapter divide in half ,sum the odd and even number etc.,I strongly dought you will not because you can't - It means your are following your own desire or blind following.
I?m still working on it (i.e. the pattern for each individual chapter and number of words).
4150-151 -- Those who disbelieve in All?h and His Messengers, and desire to make separation between All?h and His Messengers and say, "We believe in some and disbelieve in some," desiring to adopt a way in between this and that? those are the unbelievers in truth; and We have prepared for the disbelievers a humiliating punishment.
Why post this verse?
It pertains to those who believe Quran missing verses ?idle tales? and goat nonsense.
Peace
-
Peace "albruni",
Salam Brother,
father is a person who is blessed with a child and as a human being is blessed with prophet hood is a messenger.
3337 being a messenger and humanbeing he did small mistakes which has been corrected by god - Its not that messengers will not do mistakes they did as all humanbeing but not major sins as they are protected by god otherwise there is no need of sending a human as a messenger, The messenger have no divine knowledge or they can do on there own, its god who teach them to deliver it to the mankind.
JK- Correct so how do we know which are the true inspired statements of the messenger and which are the false ones? The true ones must be contained in a completely preserved scripture with no errors i.e. Quran as ive mentioned many times before.
Not only Jesus all the messengers will remain messengers even in hereafter, Its a honor given by god to the messengers do believe that Muhammad was the last messenger as i stated before in my post and Jesus will also remain as a messenger but the difference is he will not deliver any new message as the religion is complete and there is no need to add in the religion.
JK- Wheres your proof for this? Ive never read that in the Quran that theyll remain messengers forever. Your just speculating here.
Hadith - Its a way of preservation, if you only compile the truth then it will easy for anybody to add.
The scholars collected all the Hadith so that no body can blame that they have left some Hadith.JK- Which "scholars" and which hadith collections are authentic according to you? Surely Bukhari and Muslim cannot be authentic entirely since there are many absurd hadith in them like dipping the fly, black cumin being means to cure all diseases, killing for blasphemy/apostasy, seasons being formed due to hell fire taking two breaths etc etc.
For the questions about the compilation of Quran you said you can prove with the numerical pattern based on no.19 show me how its correct?
JK- Partly BUT we ALSO have archaeological evidence showing the Quranic manuscript very close to the Prophet's lifetime is almost identical to the one today.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_and_development_of_the_Qur%27an#Oldest_copy_known_today
This is not the case for hadith which cannot be traced back further than 200 years after the Prophet.The Questions are - Where does it say in the Quran that Surah Al Baqarah must come after Al Fatihah?
Where does it say in the Quran that Surah An Nas (Qulauzubirabinnas) must be the last Surah (chapter) in the Quran?
Where does it say in the Quran that ?alhamdulillahirabilalamin(0101)? must come before ?Ar Rahman Ar Rahim(0102)??
Where does it say in the Quran that there must be 114 Surah (Chapters) in the Quran?
Where does it say in the Quran that ?Qulhuwallahuahad (11201) must come before ?Allahusamad(11202)?JK- As i mentioned above this order has been maintained and theres both archaeological and numerical evidence to support this. None of such exists for any of the ahadith books. GOD Bless!
-
Salaam brother Albruni and all,
Please allow me to jump into your discussion..
I wanted to clarify that Albruni quoted an aayat but fail to understand
"4150-151 -- Those who disbelieve in All?h and His Messengers, and desire to make separation between All?h and His Messengers and say, "We believe in some and disbelieve in some," desiring to adopt a way in between this and that? those are the unbelievers in truth; and We have prepared for the disbelievers a humiliating punishment."First part "Those who disbelieve in Allah and His Messengers" First of all we DO believe in ALL messengers And this part talks about all Allah's Messengers not only ONE.
Second part "and desire to make separation between All?h and His Messengers" Again, not only Messenger but Messengers . And the important part is, we also believe in "Maiyn yuti-irRasoola fakhat ata'Allah"... that means we are not making seperations, but people who believe in Hadith says that AlQuraan from Allah and AlHadith from Messenger... They are making separations.
Third part "and say, We believe in some and disbelieve in some" We never say so, we say, we believe in the complete book of Allah as a complete guidance for the whole mankind. But people who believe in Hadith say this, when you ask how to perform Salaat, they say some are in AlQuraan and rest details are in Hadith. Thus, they don't believe in any order of Allah completely... be it a Salaat, Zakaat, Hajj, Sadaqaa, Saum, etc... We say we believe in all... but the followers of Hadith say AlQuraan does not contain everything in details, so they deny some of it.
Forth part "those are the unbelievers in truth; and We have prepared for the disbelievers a humiliating punishment" No comments. You can understand it... inshaAllah
May Allah guide us all towards the correct path that He has chosen for us.
Regards,
mmKhan -
The Quran even/odd or binary (0/1) structure cannot be replicated by man or machine -- move, delete, or change one chapter, verse, etc., and it falls apart and uses checksums same as computer systems to ensure the message arrives intact, in order, and uncorrupted with exactly 114 chapters and 6236 verses including all of chapter 91-129...
Peace
You may be honest and explain for readers where 19 is originated from and who discovered.That work is very loose and no support without believing in Miracle but abusing its code to prove your idolization supporting God's title RAHEEM for fallible human.
Here is the right one
Salam Everybody,
I would like to start my posts here with a very interesting phenomen, which no body is giving attention to. Its the structure of the verses of the Quran.
Definitions
• 1 even and odd
even number a number, which is divisible by 2
odd number a number, which is not divisible by 2• 2 homogenous and heterogenous
We define a Sura to be homogeneous, if the number of the sura is even and the number of verses in it is also even, or if the number of the sura is odd and the number of verses in it is also odd.
Otherwise the sura is heterogenous• 3 Suras of the Quran
There are 114 Suras in the Quran. The sum of numbers from 1-114 = 6555• 4 numbered verses in the Quran
There are 6234 numbered verses in the QuranThe phenomenons
• There are 60 Suras in the Quran, which have even number of verses.
These are divided into• 30 even sura numbers
• 30 odd sura numbers
• There are 54 Suras in the Quran, which have odd number of verses.
These are divided into• 27 even sura numbers
• 27 odd sura numbers
• There are 57 homogenous Suras and 57 heterogenous Suras in the Quran
• The sum of all Sura numbers and the numbers of numbered verses in these suras in the homogenous section is 6234 (compare with definition #4)
• The sum of all Sura numbers and the numbers of numbered verses in these suras in the heterogenous section is 6555 (compare with definition #3)
• The number of even Suras in the homogenous section = 30 = The number of odd Suras in the heterogenous section
• The number of odd Suras in the homogenous section = 27 = The number of even Suras in the heterogenous section
• The sum of Sura numbers in the homogenous section = 3303 = The sum of the numbered verses of the heterogenous section
• If we examine the two halves of the Quran (Suras 1-57 and Suras 58-114) we find
• The number of homogenous Suras in the first half = 29 = The number of heterogenous Suras in the second half
• The number of homogenous Suras in the second half = 28 = The number of heterogenous Suras in the first half
• The sum of the numbered verses in the first 19th chapter is 2346 and the sum of numbered verses of the Quran is 6234, and the 6234 is the 19th permutation of 2346
And today I've observed something amazing
If we examine the numbered verses of the Quran
7 286 200 176 120 165 206 75 127 109 123 111 43 52 99 128 111 110 98 135 112 78 118 64 77 227 93 88 69 60 34 30 73 54 45 83 182 88 75 85 54 53 89 59 37 35 38 29 18 45 60 49 62 55 78 96 29 22 24 13 14 11 11 18 12 12 30 52 52 44 28 28 20 56 40 31 50 40 46 42 29 19 36 25 22 17 19 26 30 20 15 21 11 8 8 19 5 8 8 11 11 8 3 9 5 4 7 3 6 3 5 4 5 6And for each number we see if the number following it is higher or lower and write H for higher and L for lower we will get the following string
HLLLHHLHLHLLHHHLLLHLLHLHHLLLLLLHLLHHLLHLLHLLLHLLHHLHLHHLLHLHL-HL-HH-LL-LHLLHLHLLLHLLLHHHLLHLL-HLH-H-LLHLLHLHLHLHHThe - means the number of verses wasn't increased nor decreased
We have in this string 61 L's and 45 H's (difference 16)
But if we see how many times it was switched from high to low (represented as HL or H-L) we'll find 32 switches
and if we see how many times it was switched from low to high (represented as LH or L-H) we'll find also 32 switches.
One can not escape the relation between 32 and 16Best regards,
MohamedP.S. almost all information are taken from http//www.mucizeler.com/19lar/ciftveteksayi.htm (turkish language, however I don't speak turkish P)
Now to imagine the complexity of this structure, here is a task for people, who are interested in mathematics
? Find a prime number P
? Find N numbers, where each number has an index from 1-N and N is a multiple of P
? An index is homogeneous if the index is even and the number assigned to it is even, or if the index is odd and the number assigned to it is odd, otherwise its heterogeneous the number of homogeneous indices must be equal to heterogenic indices
? The even numbers among these N numbers should have an equal number of odd indices and even indices
? The odd numbers among these N numbers should have an equal number of odd indices and even indices
? The sum of indices from 1-N should be equal to the sum of all indices and numbers in the homogeneous or heterogeneous section
? The sum of numbers from 1-N should be equal to the sum of all indices and numbers in the homogeneous or heterogeneous section
? Even indices in the homogeneous section must be equal to odd indices in the heterogeneous section
? Odd indices in the homogeneous section must be equal to even indices in the heterogeneous section
? The sum of indices in the homogeneous section must be equal to the sum of numbers in the heterogeneous section
? The number of homogeneous indices in the first half of indices must be equal to the number of heterogeneous indices in the second half of indices
? The number of homogeneous indices in the second half of indices must be equal to the number of heterogeneous indices in the first half of indices
? For each number from the N numbers write the number followed by the numbers from 1 to this number. All numbers placed next to each other must be divisible by P
? For each number from the N numbers write the sum of numbers from 1 to this number followed by the numbers from 1 to this number. All numbers placed next to each other must be divisible by PThe 114 numbers given at the end of the first post on this thread fulfill the requirements of this task for P=19
Peace 7431
-
Peace,
Peace
You may be honest and explain for readers where 19 is originated from and who discovered.That work is very loose and no support without believing in Miracle but abusing its code to prove your idolization supporting God's title RAHEEM for fallible human.
Here is the right one
Peace 7431 )19 originated in Quran same as expansion of the universe and other phenomenon discovered by individuals who didn?t let their ego convince them they were messengers deleting verses making up nonsense about 1974, under age forty, and other LIES to mislead and deceive many from the truth, no different the worst followers of hearsay which you are in peril of spending eternity with them in hell looking up at 19 angels.
4 numbered verses in the Quran
There are 6234 numbered verses in the QuranThe checksums don't compute and only do with 6236 verses -- my discovery...
6757 3126 3631 = 19 x 35564803349
3110 6034 2924 = 19 x 16371596996
6236 6555 12791 = 19 x 328245026989
6555.......6236....12791........6236......6555
MERCIFUL (adjective)
Meaning
Showing or giving mercyContext examples
sought merciful treatment for the captivesSimilar
compassionate (showing merciful compassion)Also
clement ((used of persons or behavior) inclined to show mercy)compassionate (showing or having compassion)
soft (compassionate and kind; conciliatory)
humane (marked or motivated by concern with the alleviation of suffering)
kind (having or showing a tender and considerate and helpful nature; used especially of persons and their behavior)
Antonym
merciless (having or showing no mercy)at-Taubah - Repentance
(٨ (٩
Verily, there has come unto you a Messenger from amongst yourselves. It grieves him that you should receive any injury or difficulty. He is anxious over you, for the believers full of pity, kind, merciful. (12 But if they turn away, say "All?h is sufficient for me. L? il?ha illa Huwa, in Him I put my trust and He is the Lord of the Mighty Throne." (129)
-
Forgot to give credit to Hati for seeing the initial idea and having another look...
114..........6..........120..........120..........
6555.....6234.......12789......6234.....6555
Symmetry is preserved yet Qur'an has been corrupted again with removal of two different verses.
Salam JK,
It seems the numbers by Nun is confirmed by 7430 look at this
70301051 40060705 70300200 6555 6236 12791 = 19 x 370005533687405563315895081874926989.0000
And your numbers
70301051 40060705 70300200 6555 6234 12789 = 19 x 370005533687405563315895081874916462.5789
the above may be a coincidence but it serves as eye opener to have a second look "Why you remove 2 verse?"
God bless you.
Hati
That's how thinks work and get discovered by aggregation of different ideas from many people -- there is no sole discoverer/inventor of anything.
Peace
-
19 originated in Quran same as expansion of the universe and other phenomenon discovered by individuals who didn?t let their ego convince them they were messengers deleting verses making up nonsense about 1974, under age forty, and other LIES to mislead and deceive many from the truth, no different the worst followers of hearsay which you are in peril of spending eternity with them in hell looking up at 19 angels.
I notice how strong and heavily your brain is influenced with your wrong learning which you can not hide your prejudices and hate toward a MAN spared his life over God Alone Quran Alone proudly not hiding under cyber id and posting hot air.
When I see people like you I feel happy that God had blessed me to be raised as atheist so do not be brain washed like you and many like you which are proud of your idolization.
When you are asked why you hide name of finder of code 19 you avoid to write Rashad but easily 17 times/ day you put name of your idolized human next to God?s easily as you have been brain washed.
Many of you change and stop such idolization phrase but yet carry many wrong learnt has been injected during your life and try to keep it until God comes to visit you personally.
7431 )MERCIFUL (adjective)
Meaning
Showing or giving mercy....
I do not these Soghra and Kobra
This file is not Rashad?s work. It is known for 1400 years
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/99_names_of_God#List_of_Names
Ar-Rahman
The All Beneficent, The Most Merciful in Essence, The Compassionate, The Most Gracious Beginning of every chapter except one, and in numerous other places
2 Ar-Rahim
The Most Merciful, The Most Merciful in Actions Beginning of every chapter except one, and in numerous other places9] Another important word that occurs in the false Verses 9128-129 is the word "Raheem" (Merciful). This word is used in the Quran exclusively as a name of God, and its total count is 114, 19x6, after removing the word "Raheem" of 9128, which refers to the prophet. According to 7188, 1049, and 7221 the Prophet did not possess any power of mercy.
http//www.submission.org/tampering.html
Tomorrow is late
Peace. -
9] Another important word that occurs in the false Verses 9128-129 is the word "Raheem" (Merciful). This word is used in the Quran exclusively as a name of God, and its total count is 114, 19x6, after removing the word "Raheem" of 9128, which refers to the prophet. According to 7188, 1049, and 7221 the Prophet did not possess any power of mercy.
The count would be same if ANY "Ram" verse is removed and it?s not Al-Ram (The Merciful).
The word has meanings applicable to people as in compassionate, clement, soft, humane, kind...
1175 Verily, Ibrah?m (was) clement/patient kind-hearted returning to God/repenting.
Peace
-
The count would be same if ANY "Ram" verse is removed and it?s not Al-Ram (The Merciful).
The word has meanings applicable to people as in compassionate, clement, soft, humane, kind...
1175 Verily, Ibrah?m (was) clement/patient kind-hearted returning to God/repenting.
Peace
Peace
When it comes to Arabic then I am out of Gas )
I ask brother Khizer to take over this part and I would follow to learn.
Most truth seekers on this screen are in same position like me as their knowledge in Arabic is no enough to follow those roots, verbs, grammars?.. trying to keep prophet at level of God.
I recommend them to consider pure numerical proof.
Just tonight I found how table 23 which is locked by code 19 and code 7 for 2 times multiple of 133 NUN now is interlocking itself to number of verses and total of those numbers and specifically chapter 9- 127 (9+1+2+7=19) verse and total of 8128 (19) !!!!
There is no probability for such interlocking system.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13856.msg175949#msg175949 -
I recommend them to consider pure numerical proof.
Just tonight I found how table 23 which is locked by code 19 and code 7 for 2 times multiple of 133 NUN now is interlocking itself to number of verses and total of those numbers and specifically chapter 9- 127 (9+1+2+7=19) verse and total of 8128 (19) !!!!
There is no probability for such interlocking system.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13856.msg175949#msg175949followed by the revelation order...
Number of verse Total of numbers Order Chapter
7 28 5 1127 8128 113 9
I appreciate your checking for accuracy. )
This is astounding info not even found in hadith ? exactly when was surah 1 revealed?
What about surah 9, which parts came first?
What about the second part of surah 96 or this part of verse 53?
?This day, I have perfected your religion for you, completed My Favour upon you, and have chosen for you islam as your religion?
Peace
-
Salam,
WaalshshafAAi waalwatri
Arabic (from right to left)
893
Gv = 6 1303008070 6 1306400200
Arberry
by the even and the odd,
Let us separate the following digits (1 2 3 ... 128 129) into the even (1303008070) and the odd (1306400200 ) and arrange it in a symmetrical pattern
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129
The arrangement is a multiple of 19!
1306400200 129 127 125 123 121 119 117 115 113 111 109 107 105 103 101 99 97 95 93 91 89 87 85 83 81 79 77 75 73 71 69 67 65 63 61 59 57 55 53 51 49 47 45 43 41 39 37 35 33 31 29 27 25 23 21 19 17 15 13 11 9 7 5 3 1
2 4 6 8 10 12 14 16 18 20 22 24 26 28 30 32 34 36 38 40 42 44 46 48 50 52 54 56 58 60 62 64 66 68 70 72 74 76 78 80 82 84 86 88 90 92 94 96 98 100 102 104 106 108 110 112 114 116 118 120 122 124 126 128 1303008070= 19 x 68757905269954059217006374690374479637426795110794900105252417852098872832525145124826145559 7978723975534182870705996702806910143433269430079637881743404263796927273801276991069654546528549718342381819255822445615109091983095172887836364710367421106370582162163216902166377957959012697962173842530.0000
God bless you.
hati
-
Salam,
Now if we arrange the numbers this way, even first, 2 4 6 ... 128 129 127 ... 3 1 again its a multiple of 19!
2 4 6 8 10 12 14 16 18 20 22 24 26 28 30 32 34 36 38 40 42 44 46 48 50 52 54 56 58 60 62 64 66 68 70 72 74 76 78 80 82 84 86 88 90 92 94 96 98 100 102 104 106 108 110 112 114 116 118 120 122 124 126 128
129 127 125 123 121 119 117 115 113 111 109 107 105 103 101 99 97 95 93 91 89 87 85 83 81 79 77 75 73 71 69 67 65 63 61 59 57 55 53 51 49 47 45 43 41 39 37 35 33 31 29 27 25 23 21 19 17 15 13 11 9 7 5 3 1
= 19 x 12990006390325369591717279117598096864444551844870824137171824572143551409899097299416278682621579484758453200579537442716411158537495400674363826974332216416405869016374258458447911063156820732578308335884093459851035608611366187123762881338638914396490154065911641669217431449.0000
Hati