Hot/"ramadan" Answer
-
Peace Soof,
I have been wondering if there are any established counter arguments by anyone to your understanding of shahr ramadan? If so could you please direct me to them?
I think that the main counter arguments that I have seen fall into three categories.
There is the traditional understanding which has to ignore the meaning of the word "ramada" and assume it to be meaningless. It also has to ignore the contradictions brought about by considering "shahr" to mean a calendar month as opposed to a cosmic phenomenon (full-moon, a meaning indicated in the Classical Arabic dictionary Lisan Al-3arab). For example the contradiction created in 2185 by supposedly making the fast for a month and then turning round and saying that fasting is for a few days.
There is Layth's understanding which, as far as I know, corrects the traditional understanding about month and acknowledges that the word "shahr" means full moon but like traditional understanding ignores the meaning of the word "ramadan" and thus puts the timing around the winter solstice.
There is also Anwar (Progod) who takes into account the correct meaning of "ramadan" and doesn't ignore it but sticks to the traditional understanding and resulting contradictions of taking "shahr" to mean "month" as opposed to a cosmic phenomenon (full moon).
As usual, any other types of counter arguments are welcome.
Peace,
Ayman
-
Peace
Thanks, Do you know of anyone else completely separate from free-minds.com come to your understanding regarding the 10 day period and shahr ramadhan? Your article is the only one that looks at it from this angle to my knowledge. Not for any discredit of your study, but out of curiosity.
Go in peace.
-
Peace Soof,
Thanks, Do you know of anyone else completely separate from free-minds.com come to your understanding regarding the 10 day period and shahr ramadhan? Your article is the only one that looks at it from this angle to my knowledge. Not for any discredit of your study, but out of curiosity.
Long after the article was written, I came accross information on other sites about Jewish festivals. I found it interesting that several of them are also timed according to the full moon. One festival in particular, if I remember correctly is the feast of Tebernacles (I believe this is what it is called) is a harvest feast which seems similar to the hagg/feast talked about in the great reading.
I don't think much research has been done in this area since all orientalists simply assume that the sectarian timing is the correct one and no one has bothered to look into this and verify it. There is definitely more research needed in this and many other areas taken for granted.
Peace,
Ayman
-
Salamun alaikum,
To Ayman,I read your article again on ramadan/ determining the calendar and maashaAllah it is very informative. I have not yet come to my own conclusion because I have not done my own study on this topic. When I do, I do plan on referring back to your article and Layth's on the topic to see where we agree or disagree and then can have further discussions except as Allah wills. I do have 2 questions for you and one note. The first question is that you seem to disagree with Layth's conclusion that the calendar should be luni-solar and if you do can you please share why. How do you interpret the 2 ayat 105 and 1712? Second, I was noticing that if we take shahr to mean full-moon which I agree with, have you found that ALL uses of the word shahr in the reading have this meaning? For example, I noticed and please correct me if you feel that I am wrong in some way, if we take the meaning as full-moon instead of the contemporary meaning of a full month of 29/30 days,then in the ayat 584 (also 492) would the fast actually equal '1 month of 30 days' instead of 2 months of 60 days' since we are using the 'full-moon' as the marker? I am asking is that what the verse is saying that we see one full moon and fast UNTIL we see the next full moon? Do you see the difference I am talking about? Also in the verses regarding the waiting period for women, in verse 654, it says 3 ashhur. Would it be that we see the first, start waiting, see the second, still waiting and see the third and it's over, which would equal 2 full months (contemporary) and not 3?
As far as the note, you asked at the end of your article about what's the difference between sanah and 'aam if any. I was also puzzled by this and wanted to know so I compiled these verses, did you do further study on this? Here are the verses I found 2259, 7130, 928,37,126, 105, 1242,47,49, 1712, 1811,25, 2040, 2247, 23112, 2618, 205, 2914, 304, 3114, 325, 704 Then I noticed by the God's mercy that verse 3114 and 4615 and talking about the same thing, the fisaal (separation) of the child from his mother. In 4615 it says the fisaal is 30 shahr and in 3114 it's 'aamain, 2 'aams. If they aren't equal then wouldn't that be a contradiction in the reading and if they are equal then isn't that the answer? If 2 'aams equals 30 shahr then what are the implications of this and it's significance that there is a special arabic word for this time period? Subhanallah. Just thought I would share this finding just in case you didn't and if you did, can you share your understanding?
Also I wanted to post a link to this article (http//www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=73013) here since it's clearly related to this discussion and I was clearly surprised that some Christians are now debating this topic. I sent an email with links to you two's articles. I am sure that they would be surprised to see such dealt with in the reading despite all of the negativity surrounding this revelation. It seems that it's something that the 'people of the book' have forgotten and maybe that's why the God mentions it clearly in His book. It IS something important in our obligation/ system.
Looking forward to your reply.
Umm Tariq
-
Peace Umm Tariq,
Thank you for your comments and it is great to see you on the forum.
I read your article again on ramadan/ determining the calendar and maashaAllah it is very informative. I have not yet come to my own conclusion because I have not done my own study on this topic. When I do, I do plan on referring back to your article and Layth's on the topic to see where we agree or disagree and then can have further discussions except as Allah wills. I do have 2 questions for you and one note. The first question is that you seem to disagree with Layth's conclusion that the calendar should be luni-solar and if you do can you please share why. How do you interpret the 2 ayat 105 and 1712?
I don't disagree that the timing of the hunting restriction, the abstinence and the feast (hagg) is based on a luni-solar cycle. What I disagree with is the term "calendar". The god doesn't give us a calendar and doesn't command us to use a certain calendar. Calendars have things like the days of the week and so on that are completely arbitrary. One can use any calendar as long as they don't change the timing of the hunting restriction in order to violate what the god restricted as warned against in 936. The timing described by the god is independent of any calendar. It is based on clear cosmic phenomenon. Of course, this god-given timing mechanism is very effective so it is probably a good idea to use a calendar that is aligned with this timing but it is not compulsory.
Second, I was noticing that if we take shahr to mean full-moon which I agree with, have you found that ALL uses of the word shahr in the reading have this meaning?
The meaning of "full-moon" fits all the uses of the word "shahr" in the great reading.
For example, I noticed and please correct me if you feel that I am wrong in some way, if we take the meaning as full-moon instead of the contemporary meaning of a full month of 29/30 days,then in the ayat 584 (also 492) would the fast actually equal '1 month of 30 days' instead of 2 months of 60 days' since we are using the 'full-moon' as the marker? I am asking is that what the verse is saying that we see one full moon and fast UNTIL we see the next full moon? Do you see the difference I am talking about?
Yes, it would mean to fast the period covering two full-moons (about 30 days).
Also in the verses regarding the waiting period for women, in verse 654, it says 3 ashhur. Would it be that we see the first, start waiting, see the second, still waiting and see the third and it's over, which would equal 2 full months (contemporary) and not 3?
It would depend on when the full-moon occurred after the couple is separated. If it just occurred the day before separation then waiting for three full-moons would mean waiting for about 90 days. If the full moon occurs the day after the couple is separated then it would be about 60 days. So the waiting period varies between 60-90 days. This is the same as when the women are asked to count menstruations. The waiting period will be different depending on when the woman?s menstruation occurred.
As far as the note, you asked at the end of your article about what's the difference between sanah and 'aam if any. I was also puzzled by this and wanted to know so I compiled these verses, did you do further study on this? Here are the verses I found 2259, 7130, 928,37,126, 105, 1242,47,49, 1712, 1811,25, 2040, 2247, 23112, 2618, 205, 2914, 304, 3114, 325, 704 Then I noticed by the God's mercy that verse 3114 and 4615 and talking about the same thing, the fisaal (separation) of the child from his mother. In 4615 it says the fisaal is 30 shahr and in 3114 it's 'aamain, 2 'aams. If they aren't equal then wouldn't that be a contradiction in the reading and if they are equal then isn't that the answer? If 2 'aams equals 30 shahr then what are the implications of this and it's significance that there is a special arabic word for this time period? Subhanallah. Just thought I would share this finding just in case you didn't and if you did, can you share your understanding?
4615 talks about pregnancy and weaning together being 30 full-moons. On the other hand, 3114 talks about the weaning alone being within two years. So according to 3114 two years is the maximum period for weaning but it could be less. The two passages are talking about two different but overlapping periods and not the same period. For example, if the pregnancy was 9 full-moons then the weaning would be 21 full-moons. On the other hand, if the baby was premature and say he was born in only 7 full-moons then the weaning would be 23 full moons. In either case, the weaning would be within the two years.
Also I wanted to post a link to this article (http//www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=73013) here since it's clearly related to this discussion and I was clearly surprised that some Christians are now debating this topic. I sent an email with links to you two's articles. I am sure that they would be surprised to see such dealt with in the reading despite all of the negativity surrounding this revelation. It seems that it's something that the 'people of the book' have forgotten and maybe that's why the God mentions it clearly in His book. It IS something important in our obligation/ system.
Thank you for the link to the article. I wasn?t aware that the issue of the timing was being challenged in Christian circles. It is finally about time. I think that what rational Christians are starting to realize is that the seven day week is a completely manmade arbitrary timeframe and that it is not tied to any objective cosmic phenomenon. Many have also undoubtedly been disturbed by the Roman pagan origin of the seven day week. I think that the issue addressed in the great reading is broader than this. It is not just about the week but it is about ?al-sabt? i.e., ?day of rest? or ?Holidays? in general. The god is indicating that we shouldn?t take a day of rest based on the false premise that the god authorized or required us to rest on that day. Based on the great reading, I don?t think that it matters if this ?day of rest? occurs every seven days, every month, every year or whatever time interval. So the condemnation of such practice equally applies to weekly Holidays such as Friday, Saturday or Sunday and to annual Holidays such as Eid, Christmas and so on. In general, I believe that it is OK to take time to relax and rest but we shouldn?t claim that the god ordered us to do so or authorized such specific days.
Peace,
Ayman
-
Peace Ayman,
Thanks so much for your post, it helped to clarify alot for me.
I agree with you about using the term calendar, it's a strong argument. I looked over the article again and I see you mentioned the 'year' being solar. However, can this be summarized as we follow a solar year but yet we use the moon to determine certain events?
Excuse me for my mistake in the verses about pregnancy and weaning, I see the difference thanks. I guess we are still left to figure out whether there is a difference between 'sanah' and 'aam'.
I got a reply from the woman of that article. I am amazed at how open minded she is and the reply was really welcoming. I also shared with her the same point that the God mentions about the sabt in relation to previous people but He is not asking us to observe such. We are concerned about the fasting, hajj and the forbidden time period.
Thank you again and as more questions arise or I need help in clarifying an issue I will post except as the God wills.
Umm Tariq
-
Peace all;
It is one month according to your Lord; let me tell you why?(٥
Ramadan month is the in which was sent down the Qur'an as a guide to mankind also clear (Signs) for guidance and judgment. So everyone of you witness that month should fast it, but if anyone is ill, or on a journey, the prescribed period (should be made up) by days later. Allah intends every facility for you He does not want to put you to difficulties. (He wants you) to complete the prescribed period, and to glorify Him in that He has guided you; and perchance ye shall be grateful. (2-185)Thus, the fasting is for a month of Ramadan.
Now how long is one month?
(٦
The number of months in the sight of Allah is twelve so ordained by Him in the day He created the heavens and the earth; of them four are sacred; that is the straight usage. So wrong not yourselves therein and fight the pagans all together as they fight you all together. But know that Allah is with those who restrain themselves. (9-36)
Thus, one year is 12 months. And as we know, one year is the time when 4 seasons are completed (Spring, Summer, Fall, and Winter), 365 days. Thus, one month is about 30 days. And if one month is ten days, then the year would be 12 month X 10 = 120 days (two seasons only).
Moreover, the following would show the length of one month
(٥
We have enjoined on man Kindness to his parents in pain did his mother bear him, and in pain did she give him birth. The carrying of the (child) to his weaning is thirty months. At length, when he reaches the age of full strength and attains forty years, he says "O my Lord! Grant me that I may be grateful for Thy favor, which Thou hast bestowed upon me, and upon both my parents, and that I may work righteousness such as Thou mayest approve; and be gracious to me in my issue. Truly have I turned to Thee and truly do I bow (to Thee) in Islam." (46-15)
Is that how long does it take and not 30 month X 10 days= 300 days
(٤
Such of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the prescribed period, if ye have any doubts, is three months, and for those who have no courses (it is the same) for those who carry (life within their wombs) their period is until they deliver their burdens and for those who fear Allah, He will make their path easy. (65-4)
As we all know, the woman gets her period every month (average every thirty days)
Thus, we have to Fast for one Month that equals 30 days average.
(٩
They ask thee concerning the New Moons. Say they are but signs to mark fixed periods of time for men, and for pilgrimage. It is no virtue if ye enter your houses from the back; it is virtue if ye fear Allah. Enter houses through the proper doors and fear Allah that ye may prosper. (2-189)
Thus? the mark of Ramadan month is the beginning of new moon.
Peace
-
Salaams All,
So everyone of you witness that month should fast it
It is using lanes and the Quranic Dictionry something along the lines;
So everyone who sees or is witness to an act of treachury must shun it but if one doesn't realise the treachury they must shun it when they come to such a realisation later.
Of course we are all entiitled to our idols though , arn't we?
And remember just one month is named out a dozen?
And thirteen moons in a twelve month year!?
my conclusion;
There arn't any twelve months in the quran at all.
God Bless all.
-
Peace Belal,
Please don't post the same exact comment in several threads. As far as I know the forum rules don't allow double posting, let alone triple-posting.
Moderators I will address Belal's comments here on this thread.
It is one month according to your Lord; let me tell you why?
(٥
Ramadan month is the in which was sent down the Qur'an as a guide to mankind also clear (Signs) for guidance and judgment. So everyone of you witness that month should fast it, but if anyone is ill, or on a journey, the prescribed period (should be made up) by days later. Allah intends every facility for you He does not want to put you to difficulties. (He wants you) to complete the prescribed period, and to glorify Him in that He has guided you; and perchance ye shall be grateful. (2-185)
Thus, the fasting is for a month of Ramadan.But 2184 is clearly telling us that the fast is for a few days (ayam ma3doodat). So now you have created a contradiction between 2184 and 2185. Also, why would you need to complete the count of a month? A month is a month and there is no completion of a count issue. The only way that counting would be an issue is if "shahr ramadan" (the scorching full-moon) is a marker and not a timeframe.
Now how long is one month?
(٦
The number of months in the sight of Allah is twelve so ordained by Him in the day He created the heavens and the earth; of them four are sacred; that is the straight usage. So wrong not yourselves therein and fight the pagans all together as they fight you all together. But know that Allah is with those who restrain themselves. (9-36)
Thus, one year is 12 months. And as we know, one year is the time when 4 seasons are completed (Spring, Summer, Fall, and Winter), 365 days. Thus, one month is about 30 days. And if one month is ten days, then the year would be 12 month X 10 = 120 days (two seasons only).But 12x30 is 360 not 365. Why are you ignoring those extra five days? In fact there is NO calendar in the world that always has 30 days in a month.
Moreover, the following would show the length of one month
(٥
We have enjoined on man Kindness to his parents in pain did his mother bear him, and in pain did she give him birth. The carrying of the (child) to his weaning is thirty months. At length, when he reaches the age of full strength and attains forty years, he says "O my Lord! Grant me that I may be grateful for Thy favor, which Thou hast bestowed upon me, and upon both my parents, and that I may work righteousness such as Thou mayest approve; and be gracious to me in my issue. Truly have I turned to Thee and truly do I bow (to Thee) in Islam." (46-15)
Is that how long does it take and not 30 month X 10 days= 300 daysThe word "shahr" means "full-moon" it doesn't mean 10 days. So your entire argument is based on nothing but a misunderstanding.
(٤
Such of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the prescribed period, if ye have any doubts, is three months, and for those who have no courses (it is the same) for those who carry (life within their wombs) their period is until they deliver their burdens and for those who fear Allah, He will make their path easy. (65-4)
As we all know, the woman gets her period every month (average every thirty days)
Thus, we have to Fast for one Month that equals 30 days average.The average for menstruation is not 30 days. No woman I know menstruates for 30 days continuously (thank god because this would be a pretty miserable thing). Menstruation, like the full-moon is an event. So when the god is telling women in 2228 to count three menstruations, how do they count them? Do they count 90 days? Or do they count three menstruations (three events). Those two things are not the same and depending on when the woman's menstruation last occurred may give totally different results.
(٩
They ask thee concerning the New Moons. Say they are but signs to mark fixed periods of time for men, and for pilgrimage. It is no virtue if ye enter your houses from the back; it is virtue if ye fear Allah. Enter houses through the proper doors and fear Allah that ye may prosper. (2-189)
Thus? the mark of Ramadan month is the beginning of new moon.This translation is false. The word "ahilat" doesn't mean new moons. It means crescents in general (both the waning and the waxing crescent). Also, the term "mawaqeet/meeqat"" in 2189 is used in the great reading to describe timing of when something ends not only when something begins.
Peace,
Ayman
-
Peace Belal,
Please don't post the same exact comment in several threads. As far as I know the forum rules don't allow double posting, let alone triple-posting.
Moderators I will address Belal's comments here on this thread.
Peace Ayman,
My intention of doing so is very clear to my Lord; thus I had to do it even if would upset others. (Sorry)
But 2184 is clearly telling us that the fast is for a few days (ayam ma3doodat).
No, it means counted days; in other words, days that we can count and agree upon.
The root word for Ma3dodat is "3ad" which means Count.
The word Few is a translation of the arabic word " Kaleel". please see the use of such word in more than hundered verses (e.g., 7-86)So now you have created a contradiction between 2184 and 2185.
In 184 god says that fasting is for days that we can count, and in 185 He tell us about their count--the month of Ramadan (from the start of the Moon untill the start of the other moon--29 to 30 days).
Please note that God's order is
The letter "Ha" at the end of the word " Fa-lia-som-ha" (Fast it) refers to the word before, "The Month".
But 12x30 is 360 not 365. Why are you ignoring those extra five days? In fact there is NO calendar in the world that always has 30 days in a month.
Do you want to go off our main issue because of the five days ???
Well, go ask some one who can tell you why the Arabic calander is less that christian calander by 10 days (the Moslems use the moon and the other use the sun).The word "shahr" means "full-moon" it doesn't mean 10 days. So your entire argument is based on nothing but a misunderstanding.
Well, your understanding is yours, and not God's. God told us that the year has 12 months, which all of us can tastify that is true. for example, if I see a tree that its leafs are falling, I can see the same event again after 12 month.
The average for menstruation is not 30 days. No woman I know menstruates for 30 days continuously (thank god because this would be a pretty miserable thing).
Well, it is funny rotfl
Now, if a woman her period starts in June 1, 2008, then the 2nd will start in July 1, 2008.
How long it will stay is an answer that I did not provied.when the god is telling women in 2228 to count three menstruations, how do they count them? Do they count 90 days? Or do they count three menstruations (three events). Those two things are not the same and depending on when the woman's menstruation last occurred may give totally different results.
True, but
Such of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the prescribed period, if ye have any doubts, is three months
, and for those who have no courses (it is the same) for those who carry (life within their wombs) their period is until they deliver their burdens and for those who fear Allah, He will make their path easy. (65-4)This translation is false. The word "ahilat" doesn't mean new moons. It means crescents in general (both the waning and the waxing crescent).
Agree
Also, the term "mawaqeet/meeqat"" in 2189 is used in the great reading to describe timing of when something ends not only when something begins.
Ok...Now the Month of Ramadan starts when we see the crescents, which means the end of the month before it (Shaban).
Peace
-
Peace Belal,
My intention of doing so is very clear to my Lord; thus I had to do it even if would upset others. (Sorry)
It doesn't upset others. The idea is that if everyone posted every message on three or four threads, then people will just start ignoring the messages the same way they ignore other repeated messages such as spam. So spaming the board with the exact same message on several threads is not productive.
No, it means counted days; in other words, days that we can count and agree upon.
The root word for Ma3dodat is "3ad" which means Count.
The word Few is a translation of the arabic word " Kaleel". please see the use of such word in more than hundered verses (e.g., 7-86)This is false because in 1220 we hear that Youssef was bought cheaply with a "few" Dirhams. What is the point if "counted" can mean any count such as a Million Dirhams?
Also, You are again ignoring to address the redundancy. Why say counted days and then saying what is according to you is 30 days (or whichever haphazard number you want to use for "month".
In 184 god says that fasting is for days that we can count, and in 185 He tell us about their count--the month of Ramadan (from the start of the Moon untill the start of the other moon--29 to 30 days).
Which is it that we are going to count 29 or 30? You can only COUNT one of them. Otherwise again what is the point of sayign "count" if it was going to be based on the moon cycle anyway and what you are counting is irrelevant?
Also, why say "complete the count in 2185 if it was already given as "30 days" or whatever "month" you conjure up.
Please note that God's order is
The letter "Ha" at the end of the word " Fa-lia-som-ha" (Fast it) refers to the word before, "The Month".So how do you witness a "month"? Isn't witnessing about SEEING? How can one see a "month"?
Also, "Fa-lia-som-ha" certainly doesn't mean "fasting the month or the entire period" since everyone would die if they fast "the month". So this is merely an indicator of the fast but it doesn't prescribe the number of days (a complete few days, i.e. 10) nor the length of the fast (dawn to sunset). Those are clarified by other means.
Do you want to go off our main issue because of the five days ???
It is the main issue but because you have no idea what to do with your missing five days you are now suddenly deciding that it is not the main issue.
Well, go ask some one who can tell you why the Arabic calander is less that christian calander by 10 days (the Moslems use the moon and the other use the sun).
But you use neither the sun or the moon. You made up an imaginary calendar with 30 days in a month. If you are simply copying the traditional so-called Moslem calendar then just say so.
Well, your understanding is yours, and not God's. God told us that the year has 12 months, which all of us can tastify that is true. for example, if I see a tree that its leafs are falling, I can see the same event again after 12 month.
Say this to yourself. If you are using the false so-called Moslem calendar the seasons will certainly shift. Also, using your false 360 days calendar, after a few years the seasons will also shift.
Well, it is funny rotfl
Now, if a woman her period starts in June 1, 2008, then the 2nd will start in July 1, 2008.
How long it will stay is an answer that I did not provied.So do you now agree to the indisputable fact that when the woman counts the menstruation she is counting the number of EVENTS and not how long it lasts?
True, but
Such of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the prescribed period, if ye have any doubts, is three months
, and for those who have no courses (it is the same) for those who carry (life within their wombs) their period is until they deliver their burdens and for those who fear Allah, He will make their path easy. (65-4)So what is this "month"? Is it your imaginary 30 day month or some other "month"?
Or is counting the "shahr" the same like counting menstruations and waiting for the delivery of the baby. In other words, it is based on EVENTS and not some haphazard 30 day imaginary month.
Agree
Ok...Now the Month of Ramadan starts when we see the crescents, which means the end of the month before it (Shaban).So when does Shaban start?
Peace,
Ayman
-
This is false because in 1220 we hear that Youssef was bought cheaply with a "few" Dirhams. What is the point if "counted" can mean any count such as a Million Dirhams?
Peace,
Again, we can not translate the arabic words as you and all of us wish; In Yousuf story, God said "Thamen Bakth" which means Cheap Price, before saying a "Drahim M3dodat" which means a COUNTED Drahem. Do you think a human being Like Yousuf is Worth such a price in God's Opinion or not (Cheap)?Please...please, M3dodat means "can be Counted" and NOT FEW, according to ITS ROOT WORD
What is the Root Word For M3dodat?
Also, You are again ignoring to address the redundancy. Why say counted days and then saying what is according to you is 30 days (or whichever haphazard number you want to use for "month".
In Islamic Calender, The number of days in each month depends on the Moon Cycle--From born "Crescent) untill becomes Crescent again after 29 or 30 (and my believe is that it could be 31 as well).
They ask thee concerning the Crescent. Say they are but signs to mark fixed periods of time for men....... (2-189)
And that is how we count the days of the period.
Which is it that we are going to count 29 or 30? You can only COUNT one of them. Otherwise again what is the point of sayign "count" if it was going to be based on the moon cycle anyway and what you are counting is irrelevant?
I answered above.
Our main point is should we fast for a whole month or not, and what is the count of one month, is it 10 days or no less than Moon Cycle (28 0r 29 or 30 days).So how do you witness a "month"? Isn't witnessing about SEEING? How can one see a "month"?
To witness the Moon Crescent (2-189), per what GOD SAID.
Also, "Fa-lia-som-ha" certainly doesn't mean "fasting the month or the entire period" since everyone would die if they fast "the month". So this is merely an indicator of the fast but it doesn't prescribe the number of days (a complete few days, i.e. 10) nor the length of the fast (dawn to sunset). Those are clarified by other means.
We have explained in detail in this Qur'an, for the benefit of mankind, every kind of similitude but man is, in most things contentious. (18-54)
We like to argue, do we? ;D
How to fast per day, and for how many days is shown in the Quran in chapter two.It is the main issue but because you have no idea what to do with your missing five days you are now suddenly deciding that it is not the main issue.
But you use neither the sun or the moon. You made up an imaginary calendar with 30 days in a month. If you are simply copying the traditional so-called Moslem calendar then just say so.
I used the Quran as shown above jedi
Say this to yourself. If you are using the false so-called Moslem calendar the seasons will certainly shift. Also, using your false 360 days calendar, after a few years the seasons will also shift.
Finally, now you agree that after 12 month period = 4 seasons. thus one month can not equal 10 days as you said.
So do you now agree to the indisputable fact that when the woman counts the menstruation she is counting the number of EVENTS and not how long it lasts?
That is what I said before, and that is what logic says, but you like to argue 9as all humans do, including me).
So what is this "month"? Is it your imaginary 30 day month or some other "month"?
Or is counting the "shahr" the same like counting menstruations and waiting for the delivery of the baby. In other words, it is based on EVENTS and not some haphazard 30 day imaginary month.
Go back and read the verse (65-4) that you answered for, and you will know what I meant.
So when does Shaban start?
When we finish debating Ramadan, you can start another thread for Shaban.
-
Peace,
I have an issue which is related to this debate.
Regarding this verse, based on my limited understanding of Arabic, Ramadhan seems to be used as a noun.
I think this because within the verse, it says which I translate to so whoever witnesses from yourselves the month. If Ramadhan was not a noun it would have had to say something like .
I am a beginner in Arabic so would someone who is more experienced in Arabic please clarify for me please.
-
Peace,
I have an issue which is related to this debate.
Regarding this verse, based on my limited understanding of Arabic, Ramadhan seems to be used as a noun.
I think this because within the verse, it says which I translate to so whoever witnesses from yourselves the month. If Ramadhan was not a noun it would have had to say something like .
I am a beginner in Arabic so would someone who is more experienced in Arabic please clarify for me please.
Peace
Ramadan is the Name of the Month, which means it is a Noun.Peace
-
Peace
Ramadan is the Name of the Month, which means it is a Noun.Peace
Peace to all.
This is conjecture. How do you know that "ramadhan" was the "Name of the Month" back when al-Qur'an was revealed? You base your number of days (in a "month" on the so-called Islamic calendar. However, how do you know this calendar is correct? Who devised this calendar, God or men?
The period is referred to as "shahru ramadhan". In this verse/description, "ramadhan" is not used as a noun, it's used as an adjective, describing the time frame ("scorching/extreme heat". "Shahru" is used in the noun form. So, even if "shahru" was referring to a "month", it would translate to the "month of extreme heat" - it's not naming the period, it's describing it. So, how do you know when this extremely hot month is?
In the story of Youssef, it uses the description "few", not "counted" - this is emphasized by "thamen bakth". This "cheap price" was the description of the "few dirhams" - the "few" (not 'counted' coins made the price "cheap". You can still count many dirhams, but this would not add up to a "cheap price" unless the number was "few".
Peace.
-
Peace to all.
This is conjecture. How do you know that "ramadhan" was the "Name of the Month" back when al-Qur'an was revealed?
God said that
You base your number of days (in a "month" on the so-called Islamic calendar. However, how do you know this calendar is correct? Who devised this calendar, God or men?
I based my number on the following logic and Quran
Now how long is one month?
(٦
The number of months in the sight of Allah is twelve
so ordained by Him in the day He created the heavens and the earth; of them four are sacred; that is the straight usage. So wrong not yourselves therein and fight the pagans all together as they fight you all together. But know that Allah is with those who restrain themselves. (9-36)Thus, one year is 12 months. And as we know, one year is the time when 4 seasons are completed (Spring, Summer, Fall, and Winter), 365 days. Thus, one month is about 30 days. And if one month is ten days, then the year would be 12 month X 10 = 120 days (two seasons only).
Moreover, the following would show the length of one month
(٥
We have enjoined on man Kindness to his parents in pain did his mother bear him, and in pain did she give him birth. The carrying of the (child) to his weaning is thirty months
. At length, when he reaches the age of full strength and attains forty years, he says "O my Lord! Grant me that I may be grateful for Thy favor, which Thou hast bestowed upon me, and upon both my parents, and that I may work righteousness such as Thou mayest approve; and be gracious to me in my issue. Truly have I turned to Thee and truly do I bow (to Thee) in Islam." (46-15)Is that how long does it take and not 30 month X 10 days= 300 days
(٤
Such of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the prescribed period, if ye have any doubts, is three months
, and for those who have no courses (it is the same) for those who carry (life within their wombs) their period is until they deliver their burdens and for those who fear Allah, He will make their path easy. (65-4)As we all know, the woman gets her period every month (average every thirty days)
Thus, we have to Fast for one Month that equals 30 days average.
(٩
They ask thee concerning the New Moons. Say they are but signs to mark fixed periods of time for men, and for pilgrimage. It is no virtue if ye enter your houses from the back; it is virtue if ye fear Allah. Enter houses through the proper doors and fear Allah that ye may prosper. (2-189)
Thus? the mark of Ramadan month is the beginning of new moon.
The period is referred to as "shahru ramadhan". In this verse/description, "ramadhan" is not used as a noun, it's used as an adjective, describing the time frame ("scorching/extreme heat". "Shahru" is used in the noun form. So, even if "shahru" was referring to a "month", it would translate to the "month of extreme heat" - it's not naming the period, it's describing it. So, how do you know when this extremely hot month is?
So, based on your logic, the Quran was revealed in the month of extreme heat.
Is it June or July or August or September, as you know all these months are Hot in the region where the Quran was revealed.
Thus, your argument is wrong. Ramadan is a Name that is refreing to the time when Quran was revealed to prophet Mohamed and when Moslems should Fast.
In the story of Youssef, it uses the description "few", not "counted" - this is emphasized by "thamen bakth". This "cheap price" was the description of the "few dirhams" - the "few" (not 'counted' coins made the price "cheap". You can still count many dirhams, but this would not add up to a "cheap price" unless the number was "few".
Peace.
Cheap price is what these people paid for Yousuf; Do you think 30 Derahm is Cheap as a Price For Yousuf?
No I take it that 30 Deraham is too much for Him, according to your Logic.
Again, Draham M3dodatt means "Counted Draham" and Never "Few Draham", according to its Root Word.Peace
-
Peace All
http//aa.usno.navy.mil/faq/docs/moon_phases.php
http//aa.usno.navy.mil/idltemp/current_moon.php
In the above link, you can witness the Moon size (every day) and the way Moslem calculate one Period (one Month), as they were instructed by Quran.
Peace -
-
Peace Belal,
Again, we can not translate the arabic words as you and all of us wish; In Yousuf story, God said "Thamen Bakth" which means Cheap Price, before saying a "Drahim M3dodat" which means a COUNTED Drahem. Do you think a human being Like Yousuf is Worth such a price in God's Opinion or not (Cheap)?
Please...please, M3dodat means "can be Counted" and NOT FEW, according to ITS ROOT WORDA Million Dirham can be counted. What is the point of saying "Drahim M3dodat"? By disregarding the meaning for ?Ma3doodat? as "few" as confirmed by the context in the great reading and dictionaries you are making the term ?Darahim Ma3doodat? pointless.
What is the Root Word For M3dodat?
The root is not a good indicator by itself. You cannot blindly take the root as the meaning that equally applies to all the forms. Take for example, ?infaq? (spending) and ?nifaq? (hypocrisy) two totally different meanings from the same root NFQ (spend). Meanings are not developed in a vacuum and the Arabic language is not some divine language that suddenly descended from the sky. One must intelligently use the context to help determine the meaning.
In Islamic Calender, The number of days in each month depends on the Moon Cycle--From born "Crescent) untill becomes Crescent again after 29 or 30 (and my believe is that it could be 31 as well).
They ask thee concerning the Crescent. Say they are but signs to mark fixed periods of time for men....... (2-189)
And that is how we count the days of the period.The lunar cycle cannot be 31 days, unless perhaps you live on a different planet. D
If you are promoting the so-called Islamic calendar then you are contradicting what you said on August 29th. Here it is again because it seems that you forgot your own words
God told us that the year has 12 months, which all of us can tastify that is true. for example, if I see a tree that its leafs are falling, I can see the same event again after 12 month.
It is an indisputable fact that in the so-called Islamic Calendar you will not see the same event of the leaves falling after 12 months and in a few years you will not be even close and you will be seeing summer instead of fall. So the entire basis of your reasoning is essentially contradictory.
I answered above.
Our main point is should we fast for a whole month or not, and what is the count of one month, is it 10 days or no less than Moon Cycle (28 0r 29 or 30 days).You have made a long post as if you are presenting some new understanding but in reality you are doing nothing but repeating the old nonsensical and completely useless so-called Islamic Calendar. All that you really did is prove that your logic is even less well thought out than even Sunnis as you demonstrated by your leaf falling contradiction.
To witness the Moon Crescent (2-189), per what GOD SAID.
We have explained in detail in this Qur'an, for the benefit of mankind, every kind of similitude but man is, in most things contentious. (18-54)
We like to argue, do we? ;D
How to fast per day, and for how many days is shown in the Quran in chapter two.This is what you are conjuring up and it is certainly not what the god said. The word ?witness? or ?shahr? doesn?t even appear in 2189. Also, which crescent? There are two crescents, the waxing and the waning and the period between the end of one and the beginning of the other is only 20 days. If the crescent is used as you conjecture then the time between two consecutive crescents is about 20 days not 30, 29 or 31 ;D.
If the crescent is to be witnessed then why didn?t the god say ?whoever witnesses the crescent? in 2185? Instead, he clearly said whoever witnesses the ?shahr?. ?Shahr? means full-moon according to its etymology and Classical Arabic dictionaries.
I used the Quran as shown above jedi
This is the same exact thing Sunnis say about their so-called Islamic calendar. They also say ?it is based in the Quran? but then they fail to address the contradictions. They try to force their preconceived "Islamic Calendar" to fit the great reading exactly like you are doing.
Finally, now you agree that after 12 month period = 4 seasons. thus one month can not equal 10 days as you said.
You are the only one on this forum who is saying that one month is equal to 10 days. I didn?t say that. The only thing that you are proving by repeating this is that you like the logical fallacy of a strawman.
That is what I said before, and that is what logic says, but you like to argue 9as all humans do, including me).
Go back and read the verse (65-4) that you answered for, and you will know what I meant.So if you now understand that we are counting events then the time between two consecutive crescents is about 20 days and this is an indisputable fact. I hope that now you can see why Sunnis had to falsify 2189 to say ?New Moons? and not ?crescents?.
When we finish debating Ramadan, you can start another thread for Shaban.
But your completely arbitrary Ramadan is 100% dependent on when Shaaban occurred and this has nothing to do with anything in the great reading. So stop pretending that you are basing your Ramadan on the ?Quran?. You don?t even know the basics such as what the word ?ramadan? means, let alone anything about the timing. I would suggest that you start by learning the meaning of the words first before drawing a conclusion.
You can see the meanings in Classical Arabic dictionaries such as Lisan Al-3arab as I quoted earlier on this thread or summarized here
http//www.free-minds.org/articles/science/timing.htm
Peace,
Ayman