SunDown Or Last Sun's Rays Out?

Alen

Peace,
Respectfully.

I forgot.
I'd also like to know how do you translate the Arabic words dawn, sunrise, sunset, dusk into English and provide Quranic verses with mentioned words.

Thanks.
God bless you.
Peace.

belH

Peace,
Respectfully.

Thank you, brother ayman.
Today is August, 19th and
the DAWN was at 0401,
the SUNRISE was at 0606,
the SUNSET will be, God willing, at 2004 and
the DUSK will be, God willing, 2155.

Peace.

Peace everyone;
May God increase his blessing on all the believers who will witness the coming of Ramadan.

Let me share with you how I concluded the timing of fasting and breakfasting, using "if-and-then" method.

If God ordered the believers to eat and drink at night time;

And if God defined the end of night by the Dawn time;

And if dawn time is two hours before sunrise;

and if such time (between dawn and sunrise) considered day and not night time;

And if the time between sunset and dusk is similar to the time between dawn and sunrise, in the length of time (2 hours) and the quantity of light.

Then the time between sunset and dusk is defined by God as daytime and NOT a NIGHT TIME;

And if God?s order is to fast to night time;

Then I should fast until day time is over, which is dusk time.

Please let me know where did I make a mistake in the above reasoning; as you all know, if we do not use our brain to reason and understand God's orders, we are like animals and even worse.
Peace

Drivelhead

Please let me know where did I make a mistake in the above reasoning;

The mistake comes from assuming that there are only 2 options - either it is 100% day, or it is 100% night. The way I understand it is that there are 3 options - it is 100% day, it is 100% night, or it is simultaneously both day and night.

I'll illustrate this with a simple day, beginning at dawn.

When the white thread of dawn becomes visible a few hours before sunrise, day has begun. At this point (during dawn), night has not yet ended, so it is simultaneously both day and night.

Once the sun rises, night ends and it is now 100% day.

In the evening, as soon as the sun sets, night begins. However, as the light is still visible, day has not yet ended (it is now dusk). It is simultaneously both day and night.

A few hours later, the white thread is no longer visible, and day ends. It is now 100% night.

Now, on to the subject of fasting. We are told we should fast from the beginning of day. This is at the start of dawn, when the first white thread of light is visible a few hours before sunrise. We then continue to fast until the night starts. As I described above, night starts as soon as the sun sets. Even though day has not yet ended, we can now end our fast because night has started.

So, we fast from dawn until sunset - from the start of day until the start of night.

belH

The mistake comes from assuming that there are only 2 options - either it is 100% day, or it is 100% night. The way I understand it is that there are 3 options - it is 100% day, it is 100% night, or it is simultaneously both day and night.

I'll illustrate this with a simple day, beginning at dawn.

When the white thread of dawn becomes visible a few hours before sunrise, day has begun. At this point (during dawn), night has not yet ended, so it is simultaneously both day and night.

Once the sun rises, night ends and it is now 100% day.

In the evening, as soon as the sun sets, night begins. However, as the light is still visible, day has not yet ended (it is now dusk). It is simultaneously both day and night.

A few hours later, the white thread is no longer visible, and day ends. It is now 100% night.

Now, on to the subject of fasting. We are told we should fast from the beginning of day. This is at the start of dawn, when the first white thread of light is visible a few hours before sunrise. We then continue to fast until the night starts. As I described above, night starts as soon as the sun sets. Even though day has not yet ended, we can now end our fast because night has started.

So, we fast from dawn until sunset - from the start of day until the start of night.

Peace

Your reasoing is correct, which I used to follow untill last Ramadan; but I thought to reask the question in order to get other opinions.

So, God asked us to Fast untill the start of the night, and not when we are in night time? because if yes, then breakfasting at sunset is true.
Peace

belH

Peace;
Have questions;

When the white thread of dawn becomes visible a few hours before sunrise, day has begun. At this point (during dawn), night has not yet ended, so it is simultaneously both day and night.

And that is when we start fasting, at the start of day.

Please pay a close attention
at the start is a translation for "HATA " (refer to verse 2-187); please note that God used the Word Hata. Now when you look at the word that is used when mentioning the time to breakfast is "ELA Elial". WE know HATA is the begining of the event, how about ELA?
Why God did not say "HATA Elial", which would mean the begining of Night?
Does Ela means the begining or when the event is complete?

Please, when answering refer to Arabic Grammer.
Peace

Once the sun rises, night ends and it is now 100% day.

In the evening, as soon as the sun sets, night begins. However, as the light is still visible, day has not yet ended (it is now dusk). It is simultaneously both day and night.

A few hours later, the white thread is no longer visible, and day ends. It is now 100% night.

Now, on to the subject of fasting. We are told we should fast from the beginning of day. This is at the start of dawn, when the first white thread of light is visible a few hours before sunrise. We then continue to fast until the night starts. As I described above, night starts as soon as the sun sets. Even though day has not yet ended, we can now end our fast because night has started.

So, we fast from dawn until sunset - from the start of day until the start of night.

belH

Peace
That is what I intended to post; sorry for the extra part (it was a quote drivlhead)

Peace;
Have questions;

And that is when we start fasting, at the start of day.

Please pay a close attention
at the start is a translation for "HATA " (refer to verse 2-187); please note that God used the Word Hata. Now when you look at the word that is used when mentioning the time to breakfast is "ELA Elial". WE know HATA is the begining of the event, how about ELA?
Why God did not say "HATA Elial", which would mean the begining of Night?
Does Ela means the begining or when the event is complete?

Please, when answering refer to Arabic Grammer.
Peace

unknownuser

Peace all,

And if dawn time is two hours before sunrise;

Depends on location; in Mecca it?s about 22 minutes.

http//www.gaisma.com/en/location/mecca.html

and if such time (between dawn and sunrise) considered day and not night time;

And if the time between sunset and dusk is similar to the time between dawn and sunrise, in the length of time (2 hours) and the quantity of light.

Then the time between sunset and dusk is defined by God as daytime and NOT a NIGHT TIME;

And if God?s order is to fast to night time;

Then I should fast until day time is over, which is dusk time.

Please let me know where did I make a mistake in the above reasoning;

These are not same;

Sunset (sun below horizon) to Dusk or after glow how dark is night

Dawn (white thread) to Sunrise (sun is fully visible above horizon)

http//blogs.trb.com/news/weather/weblog/wgnweather/111006_sunrise.jpg

Once the sun rises, night ends and it is now 100% day.

In the evening, as soon as the sun sets, night begins. However, as the light is still visible, day has not yet ended (it is now dusk). It is simultaneously both day and night.

A few hours later, the white thread is no longer visible, and day ends. It is now 100% night.

There is no white thread after sunset only at sunrise. You can easily verify this.

There is only day (white thread) and night after sunset; no in between or dusk which is our word for how dark is night.

So, we fast from dawn until sunset - from the start of day until the start of night.

That is correct.

Peace

belH

Peace all,

Depends on location; in Mecca it?s about 22 minutes.

http//www.gaisma.com/en/location/mecca.html

These are not same;

Sunset (sun below horizon) to Dusk or after glow how dark is night

Dawn (white thread) to Sunrise (sun is fully visible above horizon)

[

There is no white thread after sunset only at sunrise. You can easily verify this.

There is only day (white thread) and night after sunset; no in between or dusk which is our word for how dark is night.

That is correct.

Peace

Peace
Please, what is the different between the red arabic two words (part of 2-187)

the first (Hata) is used to refer to the begining of Dawn
The Second (Ela) is used to refer to__?__ of Night.

If you refer to Quran, you will know the different.
Peace

unknownuser

Peace
Please, what is the different between the red arabic two words (part of 2-187)

the first (Hata) is used to refer to the begining of Dawn
The Second (Ela) is used to refer to__?__ of Night.

If you refer to Quran, you will know the different.
Peace

The words appear 100s of times in Quran. This is like asking what's the difference between until and to.

eat until (hatta) start of DAY then fast to (ila) the NIGHT.

What exactly is your point?

If it's still about dusk or how dark is the night then which dusk...

Civil dusk sun is 6 degrees below the horizon.

Nautical dusk sun is 12 degrees below the horizon.

Astronomical dusk sun is 18 degrees below the horizon.

No such thing as dusk in Quran only DAY (exactly at white thread) and NIGHT exactly when the Sun falls below the horizon.

Peace

belH

The words appear 100s of times in Quran. This is like asking what's the difference between until and to.

eat until (hatta) start of DAY then fast to (ila) the NIGHT.

Peace,
That is what I'm refering to.

Does "TO Night time" means "the Start of Night Time", as if we would use "Until Night Time"?

Peace

unknownuser

Peace belalhammad,

Does "TO Night time" means "the Start of Night Time", as if we would use "Until Night Time"?

Yes, start of the night, as far as the night, until/till the night, up to the night.

Imagine a line (sunset) boundary reached. It?s the same as ila Allahi (to God) or ila alssalati (to the prayer) or ila almarafiqi (to the elbows) ? once there that?s it.

3346 WadaAAiyan ila Allahi bi-ithnihi wasirajan muneeran
And calling to God with His permission/pardon and a lamp luminous/giving light.

Peace

belH

Peace belalhammad,

Yes, start of the night, as far as the night, until/till the night, up to the night.

Imagine a line (sunset) boundary reached. It?s the same as ila Allahi (to God) or ila alssalati (to the prayer) or ila almarafiqi (to the elbows) ? once there that?s it.

3346 WadaAAiyan ila Allahi bi-ithnihi wasirajan muneeran
And calling to God with His permission/pardon and a lamp luminous/giving light.

Peace

I will use your reasoning; unless I find more proofs, I will stick with it.

Happy Rammadan

deenor

Salaamun Aleikom Brothers and sisters in faith,

There seems to many enterpretations of the word night. If you ask one person when night is they might say; when it is dark outside. Then you may proceed to ask another person and they may say; night is at sunset, however in order for us to know what Allah means by night as we all know the answer is in his scripture.... lets take a look to see how he uses this word. There are two imoprtant verses concering this issue.

2187 - It has been made lawful for you during the night of fasting to approach your women sexually. They are a garment for you and you are a garment for them. God knows that you used to betray your souls so He has accepted your repentance, and forgiven you; now you may approach them and seek what God has written for you. And you may eat and drink until the white thread is distinct from the black thread of dawn then you shall complete the fast until night and do not approach them while you are devoted in the temples. These are God's boundaries, so do not transgress them. It is thus that God makes His revelations clear to the people that they may be righteous.

Clearly it says to fast until night not sunset, eventhough some have translated it and used the word sunset for the arabic word LAYL.

The following verse gives us a clear visual description of the sky at the time of NIGHT/LAYL.

676 When the night covered him, he saw a planet, and he said "This is my Lord." But when it disappeared he said "I do not like those that disappear."

This indicates that night is when you can see planets this occurs about 30 - 40 minutes after sunset

"...30 - 40 after sunset the sky becomes dark enough that the planets and bright stars become visible. The planets can be recognized by their brightness and position in the sky. Venus is the brightest planet and will be easily seen in the west as the sky becomes dark. Jupiter is the second brightest planet and will become visible in the eastern sky" http//www.mcpstars.org/node/13

The sky is still too bright to see any planets with the bare eye at sunset.

My conclusion is as follows ; When we can see planets/stars in the sky, it is a sign that we can break fast.

unknownuser

Salaam,

The following verse gives us a clear visual description of the sky at the time of NIGHT/LAYL.

676 When the night covered him, he saw a planet, and he said "This is my Lord." But when it disappeared he said "I do not like those that disappear."

This indicates that night is when you can see planets this occurs about 30 - 40 minutes after sunset

That only indicates we can see planets as the night darkens.

Falamma janna AAalayhi allaylu raa kawkaban qala hatha rabbee falamma afala qala la ohibbu al-afileena

676 So when the night darkened on him, he saw a star/planet, he said "That (is) my lord." So when it set/darkened, he said "I do not like the setting/disappearing."

327 You make the night enter/penetrate in the daytime, and You make the daytime enter/penetrate in the night...

Clear as "night and day" of crossing a threshold at sunset and dawn.

Also read prior post by Ayman...

To put it in simple terms, the god tells us that he merges night into daylight and daylight into night. It is impossible to merge night into daylight unless night starts at sunset.

Moreover, we are told in the great reading that the specific part of the night that is completely dark is called "ghasak al-layl" and not just "layl". If "layl" is by definition completely dark then the word "ghasak" would be redundant.

Peace,

Ayman

Aqimi alssalata lidulooki alshshamsi ila ghasaqi allayli waqur-ana alfajri inna qur-ana alfajri kana mashhoodan
1778 Start/keep up the prayers to the sun's nearing setting to the night's darkness, and the dawn's Quran, that the dawn's Quran was/is being witnessed.

Peace

Mutazilah