Why The Month Of Rammadan Does Not Mean The Moon Of Rammadn
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Salaam belal
So? Just because the cycle starts with a waxing crecsent, then you have to use it to calculate your months and years? How long (or actually how short) will be your year? How long is God's year/number of months?
With your lunar year you will have less than 12 months by about 10-12 days.
Yes if you compare with Sun Year; but why and what is the wisdom behind it is what I do not know; but I like the opinion in the following link
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9596845.0
Do we count days by the sun or the moon? How long is a moon day? What is the timing of salat based on?
the Day is measuerd by Sun Cycle as the Quran says (when measuring when to fast and breakfast).
Hence, the week is measuerd by the Sun (7 sun cycles= week); but who many Sun Cycle (days) does the Month containes is what will depend on the Moon Cycle. -
Salaam belal
When God speaks of years, what does He mean? A lunar or a solar? How can the count of days is solar and that of a year is lunar?
Please note that in the first 3 month of pragnancy, the women does not feel that she is carying any thing yet.
I know you are addressing Nun, but i could not resist the question What do you mean? If she does not feel it, it does not count? How do you know she does not feel it?
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Peace all --
Exactly, now we have a definition of "time" and direct correlation between months and years.
46-15...and his weight/pregnancy with him, and his wearing/separation thirty months, until when he reached his maturity/strength, and he reached forty years
2233 And the mothers breast feed their children two years
3114 ...and his weaning/separation in two years
30 months - weight/pregnancy with him = 2 years breast feeding
936... the number of months with Allah is twelve months
12 months = 1 year
24 months = 2 years
30 months - weight/pregnancy with him = 24 months
6 months = weight/pregnancy with himTherefore, in the first trimester during the straightening stage the fetus is soul/spirit less.
329 Then He straightened Him, and He blew in Him from His Soul/Spirit, and He made/put for you the hearing/listening, and the eye sights/knowledge, and the hearts , little (is) what you thank/be grateful.
Peace
Peace.
How so? 3114 specifically mentions weaning/breastfeeding for 2 years.
2 years = 24 months, as 1 year = 12 months
If 4615 is speaking of both pregnancy and weaning (for 2 years) being equal to 30 months, this would make the total pregnancy equal to 6 months, which we know is not the case. Your reasoning on the "soul/spirit less" fetus is incorrect."He created you from one person, then created from him his mate. He sent down to you eight kinds of livestock. He creates you in your mothers' bellies, creation after creation, in trimesters of darkness. Such is God your Lord. To Him belongs all sovereignty. There is no other god beside Him. How could you deviate?" (al-Qur'an 396)
Here, it says He creates humans in 3 periods. Then, it says
"Then we developed the drop into an embryo (hanging), then developed the embryo (hanging) into a , then created the into bones, then covered the bones with flesh. We thus produce a new creature. Most blessed is God, the best creator." (al-Qur'an 2314)
So, how do we know at one point the creation comes alive? Al-Qur'an further explains
"Once I design him, and blow into him from My spirit, you shall yield to him." (al-Qur'an 3872)
Here, it is implied that Adam was not alive before God's spirit was blown into him. After Adam, we were all conceived through reproduction.
"As for the one who maintained her chastity, we blew into her from our spirit, and thus, we made her and her son a portent for the whole world." (al-Qur'an 2191)
Since Maryam was mentioned as conceiving Esa through The God's spirit, this spirit signified Esa's conception. That means that Esa (as well as the rest of humanity) was alive upon conception, he wasn't dead until the 2nd trimester. This is the case with all of us... During the first trimester, the neural tube forms, the child's gender is determined, and the heart and circulatory system are developed. These are what give the embryo it's "soul"/life. According to scientific studies, heartbeats can begin as early as FIVE WEEKS. So, how can the child be considered lifeless? The child becomes considered a "fetus" during the first trimester as well, around the 10th week. During this period, still in the first trimester, life is clearly evident...
Since in qur'anic terms having a "soul" is equivalent to having "life", then the fetus is definately not "soul/spirit less" during this time period. Also, since a general pregnancy lasts 40 weeks, you can't base a timetable on this. The conclusion of "40 weeks" is completely dependent on the cultural view of the "week", just like the concept of a "9 month" pregnancy is dependent on the cultural view of the "month". By the cultural standpoint, a pregnancy is equal to 9 months, but in reality, 40 weeks is more than 9 months...
Here's my question
If 30 days equals 1 month, and 12 months equals 1 year, then that would make one year equal to 360 days - the remaining days would roll over into a 13th month... Likewise, if 31 days are equal to 1 month, and 1 year equals 12 months, then 1 year would equal 372 days, which is actually MORE than a year... So, if your reasoning is correct about the "month-long fast" for shahru ramadhan, how would you know which months equal 30 days and which ones equal 31 based on al-Qur'an?
Peace,
Ahmad
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Peace Nun,
Therefore, in the first trimester during the straightening stage the fetus is soul/spirit less.
329 Then He straightened Him, and He blew in Him from His Soul/Spirit, and He made/put for you the hearing/listening, and the eye sights/knowledge, and the hearts , little (is) what you thank/be grateful.Unfortunately, many sectarian women have killed their unborn babies prior to the 3rd month of pregnancy based on such speculations about the spirit. Are you willing to bear the burden of the killing of such babies based on your speculation about the spirit (a matter which we are clearly told not to speculate about)?
Please see the following link and other scientific evidence clearly showing that all the organs are formed in the first 8 weeks of pregnancy. In fact, the heart begins to beat in the 3rd week. By the 8th week the baby is extremely reactive to its environment and his sex is determined.
http//www.islam101.com/science/embryo.html
Peace,
Ayman
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Belalhammad,
A woman who's been pregnant for three months would have to be a real bimbo not to know she's pregnant, because that's the stage when pregnant women vomit a lot, however, I believe abortion's allowed in the first 86 days of pregnancy. The Quran indicates that a fetus doesn't possess consciousness (which is what distinguishes humans and jinns from other creatures) before the start of the 87th day of pregnancy, and therefore, abortion is murder only after the first 86 days of gestation. Also, it is an established fact that a fetus cannot sense any pain before the third trimester, and a fetus' heart, hands, feet, brain and various other organs are present in the 11th week of gestation, but they're at the beginning of their development.
Doctors declare people who don't have any EEG movement "clinically dead". The first measurable signs of EEG movement occurs in the 12th week in fetuses, which I guess means that they're sort of brain-dead prior to the 12th week of gestation.
You should read Yuksel's excellent article on abortion at http//www.yuksel.org/e/religion/unorthodox.htm#ABORTION
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Peace Ayman,
Are you willing to bear the burden of the killing of such babies based on your speculation about the spirit (a matter which we are clearly told not to speculate about)?
Where does the Quran say that? I can't imagine God telling us not to speculate about anything. I believe God wants us to speculate on absolutely everything, otherwise there can be little learning.
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Salaam belal
When God speaks of years, what does He mean? A lunar or a solar? How can the count of days is solar and that of a year is lunar?
Peace all;
Sorry, I'm still fasting and could not resist a Nap ;DSamia; What I told you regarding the calculation is what in Quran; Sun to calculate one Day, and Moon to calculate Month and year. Please review the verses and point what did I miss?
I know you are addressing Nun, but i could not resist the question What do you mean? If she does not feel it, it does not count? How do you know she does not feel it?
rotfl me too, don't know how to resist.
The point of 30 month not equaling 9month of pragnancy plus 24 month of breastfeeding is underdebate.
Does my conclusion stand on Quran? NO, it is only a guss;If you want to solve this puzzel take the following note
30 month of lunar will equal average 985 days
24 month of brestfeeding (Lunar) would equal about 710 days
Thus, you are left with 185 days for the word "Hamloho" which mean carying the Baby.
Now, some say that this verse was revealed due to a woman who deliverd a baby after six month and her husbend did not want to accept the baby (Hadith).any way the topic is debatable.
Peace -
Peace Nun,
Unfortunately, many sectarian women have killed their unborn babies prior to the 3rd month of pregnancy based on such speculations about the spirit. Are you willing to bear the burden of the killing of such babies based on your speculation about the spirit (a matter which we are clearly told not to speculate about)?
Please see the following link and other scientific evidence clearly showing that all the organs are formed in the first 8 weeks of pregnancy. In fact, the heart begins to beat in the 3rd week. By the 8th week the baby is extremely reactive to its environment and his sex is determined.
http//www.islam101.com/science/embryo.html
Peace,
Ayman
IMO life starts at conception.
peace
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Salaam belal
The day is the unit for a year. Since no day can be measured by a lunar cycle, then a year cannot be lunar. The verse can be interpreted either way. Just because the (number of years and the count) follows the word "moon", this does not mean they do not concern the sun mentioned before the word "moon".
The pregnancy is related to an event, the menustration, which happens roughly every 28 days. Is this a lunar month, a month or just an event? The average pregnancy is 36 weeks, i.e equal to 9 events of menustration = otherwise called 9 months. Do you see how shahr is not necessarily a month? .
I think this verse speaks about limits, since there are variations regarding pregnancy and weaning. I also think that it's merely for legal purposes, as you correctly guessed minmum viable pregnancy is 26 weeks (for legal fatherhood), maximum breast feeding (since it is a paid job) is 24 months beyond which no payment will be made.
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Salaam belal
The day is the unit for a year. Since no day can be measured by a lunar cycle, then a year cannot be lunar. The verse can be interpreted either way. Just because the (number of years and the count) follows the word "moon", this does not mean they do not concern the sun mentioned before the word "moon"..
I think this verse speaks about limits, since there are variations regarding pregnancy and weaning. I also think that it's merely for legal purposes, as you correctly guessed minmum viable pregnancy is 26 weeks (for legal fatherhood), maximum breast feeding (since it is a paid job) is 24 months beyond which no payment will be made.
Valid points
The pregnancy is related to an event, the menustration, which happens roughly every 28 days. Is this a lunar month, a month or just an event? The average pregnancy is 36 weeks, i.e equal to 9 events of menustration = otherwise called 9 months. Do you see how shahr is not necessarily a month?
If you are confused, you're not alone. While some people talk about pregnancy being 9 months long (divided into three trimesters), most health care providers refer to pregnancy as being 40 weeks long, starting with your last known menstrual period (LMP). Weeks - Months - Calculator - Convertor
A normal pregnancy lasts 280 days from your LMP which is about 266 days from conception to birth. The first two weeks of your pregnancy includes the time of your period, ovulation and fertilization. Conception occurs approximately 14 - 16 days after the first day of your period.
The date of conception is not always known and can vary between women. The date of LMP is known by most women so doctors use this date as a starting point for pregnancy. From your LMP they will add 280 days and this will give your Estimated Due Date or EDD. In general, all doctors agree that pregnancies, when using the LMP dating technique, average approximately 280 days or 40 weeks
http//baby2see.com/pregnancylength.htmlpeace
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Peace all --
How so? 3114 specifically mentions weaning/breastfeeding for 2 years.
2 years = 24 months, as 1 year = 12 months
If 4615 is speaking of both pregnancy and weaning (for 2 years) being equal to 30 months, this would make the total pregnancy equal to 6 months, which we know is not the case. Your reasoning on the "soul/spirit less" fetus is incorrect.Are you saying Quran contradicts?
12 months = 1 year; 24 months = 2 years
30 months ? 9 pregnancy = 21 months = 2 yearsIt?s not total pregnancy, its 6 months ?with him?; the math is straightforward only need to substitute...
46-15...and his weight/pregnancy with him, and his wearing/separation thirty months
3114 ...and his weaning/separation in two years
30 months - weight/pregnancy with him = 2 years
6 months = weight/pregnancy with himSo, how do we know at one point the creation comes alive? Al-Qur'an further explains
"Once I design him, and blow into him from My spirit, you shall yield to him." (al-Qur'an 3872)
Here, it is implied that Adam was not alive before God's spirit was blown into him. After Adam, we were all conceived through reproduction.
"As for the one who maintained her chastity, we blew into her from our spirit, and thus, we made her and her son a portent for the whole world." (al-Qur'an 2191)
Since Maryam was mentioned as conceiving Esa through The God's spirit, this spirit signified Esa's conception.
Where does it say when the spirit enters the body, at what stage ? conception, first cell dna split?
Here's my question
If 30 days equals 1 month, and 12 months equals 1 year, then that would make one year equal to 360 days - the remaining days would roll over into a 13th month... Likewise, if 31 days are equal to 1 month, and 1 year equals 12 months, then 1 year would equal 372 days, which is actually MORE than a year... So, if your reasoning is correct about the "month-long fast" for shahru ramadhan, how would you know which months equal 30 days and which ones equal 31 based on al-Qur'an?
Where have I mentioned 30 days equals 1 month?
We know
12 months = 1 year
A day starts at dawn and ends at sunset
1 year = 365.242199 days
365.242199 days / 12 months = 30.4368499 days/monthOr simply Google ?month?
http//www.google.com/search?hl=en&rlz=1C1GGLS_en-USUS291&q=month&btnG=SearchI'm still researching.
Peace Ayman,
Unfortunately, many sectarian women have killed their unborn babies prior to the 3rd month of pregnancy based on such speculations about the spirit. Are you willing to bear the burden of the killing of such babies based on your speculation about the spirit (a matter which we are clearly told not to speculate about)?
Please see the following link and other scientific evidence clearly showing that all the organs are formed in the first 8 weeks of pregnancy. In fact, the heart begins to beat in the 3rd week. By the 8th week the baby is extremely reactive to its environment and his sex is determined.
http//www.islam101.com/science/embryo.html
Peace,
Ayman
I'm not for any abortion except perhaps the first week in cases of rape, health of mother, etc.
Unlike the Christian extremists would let the mother choose before 3 months.
I do not hold the view that life (i.e. spirit) starts with cells at conception nor that a heart pumping connected to a machine is a living soul.
Same questions above apply -- does Quran contradict; does 24 = 21?
Peace
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Salaam belal
The day is the unit for a year. Since no day can be measured by a lunar cycle, then a year cannot be lunar. The verse can be interpreted either way. Just because the (number of years and the count) follows the word "moon", this does not mean they do not concern the sun mentioned before the word "moon".
The pregnancy is related to an event, the menustration, which happens roughly every 28 days. Is this a lunar month, a month or just an event? The average pregnancy is 36 weeks, i.e equal to 9 events of menustration = otherwise called 9 months. Do you see how shahr is not necessarily a month? .
I think this verse speaks about limits, since there are variations regarding pregnancy and weaning. I also think that it's merely for legal purposes, as you correctly guessed minmum viable pregnancy is 26 weeks (for legal fatherhood), maximum breast feeding (since it is a paid job) is 24 months beyond which no payment will be made.
Peace;
I wish I have all the time to discuss, but I will do my best.As far as the day, the Quran says sun cycle.
As far as the month, God did not, again, God did not mention fixed number as we have in Solar Celander (31 or 30). Thus, you or me or Ayman cann't say that God forgot to say nor He need us to talk for him. The Month is calculated by the Moon Cycle, as he stated in Quran. And why is that? only Him knows. If He wanted us to calculate fixed numbers, He would have said it.Here is a link shows that Lunar Celander was used by Jews, and the recent Calendar (Solar) was invented in year 1700 (400 years ago);' which means that it has no religous base, during Mohamed nor Jesus nor Moses
http//www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0002061.html
http//www.infoplease.com/spot/gregorian1.htmlBy the way, today at 8pm I witnessed a Red Waxing Crescent from the USA. Does that mean any thing?
Now, Samia, your turn to answer my Question.
Peace -
Peace Nun,
I'm not for any abortion except perhaps the first week in cases of rape, health of mother, etc.
Unlike the Christian extremists would let the mother choose before 3 months.
I do not hold the view that life (i.e. spirit) starts with cells at conception nor that a heart pumping connected to a machine is a living soul.But that is the whole point. We can't say anything about the spirit (1785), including when life starts.
Same questions above apply -- does Quran contradict; does 24 = 21?
The great reading doesn't contradict but our understanding does. Can't we see in reality that many babies are born early less than 9 months and late more than 9 months? In fact some babies are born significantly prior to 9 months. Moreover, women normally do not wean their babies at exactly two years. Most of the time it is less and it depends on the baby and the mother and how rapidly and well the baby adjusts to solid food. From the passages that mention weaning, it is clear that 2 years is the maximum period for weaning while no minimum is given. As I can remember, one passage talks about the time being within 2 years and the other talks about 2 years for those who want (i.e. optional) to complete (i.e. maximize) the breastfeeding. So when the great reading mentions 30 full moons for both pregnancy and weaning, those are not exact timeframes but is a general guideline with inherent variability in both sides of the equation (the pregnancy and the breastfeeding). If the baby is born a little early then they would probably need to be weaned later compared to a baby who was born late or at full term who may not need more than 21 full-moons for weaning. It doesn't mean that breastfeeding is always 24 full moons (or months) and that a baby who is born after 9 full-moons (or months) has his spirit in month 3 while a baby born after 7 full-moons (or months) had his spirit in month 1. I hope that you can see the issues created by your rigid interpretation.
Peace,
Ayman
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If you are confused, you're not alone. While some people talk about pregnancy being 9 months long (divided into three trimesters), most health care providers refer to pregnancy as being 40 weeks long, starting with your last known menstrual period (LMP). Weeks - Months - Calculator - Convertor
A normal pregnancy lasts 280 days from your LMP which is about 266 days from conception to birth. The first two weeks of your pregnancy includes the time of your period, ovulation and fertilization. Conception occurs approximately 14 - 16 days after the first day of your period.
The date of conception is not always known and can vary between women. The date of LMP is known by most women so doctors use this date as a starting point for pregnancy. From your LMP they will add 280 days and this will give your Estimated Due Date or EDD. In general, all doctors agree that pregnancies, when using the LMP dating technique, average approximately 280 days or 40 weeks
http//baby2see.com/pregnancylength.htmlSalaam Farida
Whether the pregnancy is 36 or 40 weeks (usually calculated for 9 solar months minus a week), the point is that it's neither 9 solar nor lunar months, and is calculated based on menustration an event in a woman's life. Other calculations concerning women/mothers are also based on this event.
My question (not necessarily to you) is what is the event that a crescent mark so that we count a month based on it (other than the disputed time of ramadaan)?
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Peace Ayman,
But that is the whole point. We can't say anything about the spirit (1785), including when life starts.
And they ask/question you about the Soul/Spirit, say "The Soul/Spirit (is) from my Lord's matter/affair, and you were not given from the knowledge except little.?
Agreed, and although it was informative did not want to turn the topic into abortion only to bring the correlation of months to years.
You stated
?...30 full moons...?
?...24 full-moons (or months)...?
"...9 full-moons (or months)..."936... the number of months with Allah is twelve months
By your definition, are not 12 full-moons (or months) lunar each = 29.5306 days?
By your definition, are not 12 full-moons (or months) = 12 x 29.5306 days = 1 year?
In addition, it takes 2 full-moons to equal 1 month; 25 full-moons to equal 24 months.
Therefore, shahr cannot mean full-moons in above cases.
What about Shahr (1 full-moon or 1 month) Ramadan?
Peace
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Are you saying Quran contradicts?
12 months = 1 year; 24 months = 2 years
30 months ? 9 pregnancy = 21 months = 2 yearsIt?s not total pregnancy, its 6 months ?with him?; the math is straightforward only need to substitute...
Nowhere in al-Qur'an does it say that total pregnancy lasts for 6 or 9 months. The determination of this is completely based on your view of the "month"... Scientists say that pregnancy lasts "40 weeks", but how long is a "week"?
The principles in al-Qur'an are UNIVERSAL, not cultural. That means The God wouldn't base His periods for us on arbitrary timetables - they are based on something universal. The moon is definately a universal item of calculation, as is the sun - the concept of a "month" or a "week" are not universal...
Peace,
Ahmad
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Nowhere in al-Qur'an does it say that total pregnancy lasts for 6 or 9 months. The determination of this is completely based on your view of the "month"... Scientists say that pregnancy lasts "40 weeks", but how long is a "week"?
This was already answered; read Ayman's post as to speculation about the spirit/life and my reply...
But that is the whole point. We can't say anything about the spirit (1785), including when life starts.
Peace Ayman,
And they ask/question you about the Soul/Spirit, say "The Soul/Spirit (is) from my Lord's matter/affair, and you were not given from the knowledge except little.?
Agreed, and although it was informative did not want to turn the topic into abortion only to bring the correlation of months to years.
The key question is the meaning of shahr in above verses which cannot mean full-moons only months.
Then we can decide the types of months; when they start/end how many days, etc.
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Peace Nun,
And they ask/question you about the Soul/Spirit, say "The Soul/Spirit (is) from my Lord's matter/affair, and you were not given from the knowledge except little.?
Agreed, and although it was informative did not want to turn the topic into abortion only to bring the correlation of months to years.Great. Now we can move on to the timing.
You stated
?...30 full moons...?
?...24 full-moons (or months)...?
"...9 full-moons (or months)..."
936... the number of months with Allah is twelve monthsThis translation of 936 is not accurate. The word "3idat" doesn't have the same exact meaning as the word "3adad"/number. The word "3idat" means "count" so it should be
936... the count of full-moons with the god is twelve full-moons...
By your definition, are not 12 full-moons (or months) lunar each = 29.5306 days?
By your definition, are not 12 full-moons (or months) = 12 x 29.5306 days = 1 year?
In addition, it takes 2 full-moons to equal 1 month; 25 full-moons to equal 24 months.
Therefore, shahr cannot mean full-moons in above cases.
What about Shahr (1 full-moon or 1 month) Ramadan?Please see the answers to your questions here
http//www.free-minds.org/articles/science/timing.htm
Peace,
Ayman
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Great. Now we can move on to the timing.
This translation of 936 is not accurate. The word "3idat" doesn't have the same exact meaning as the word "3adad"/number. The word "3idat" means "count" so it should be
936... the count of full-moons with the god is twelve full-moons...
Please see the answers to your questions here
http//www.free-minds.org/articles/science/timing.htm
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Ayman,
Yes I read your article before.
Let?s look at the full moon dates for next few years and go over cases...
Farmers Almanac...
http//www.almanac.com/astronomy/moon/full/index.phpToday on September 7, 2008 a man dies; his widow must wait 4 ?full moons? and 10 days (2234).
Full Moon Dates 2008
August 16 418 P.M.
September 15 415 A.M.
October 14 304 P.M.
November 13 1219 A.M.
December 12 1038 A.M.Add 10 days ? December 22, 2008 is her term date.
Likewise it is Dec 22 even if the man died after August 17 ? a difference of 3 weeks!
What if he dies at 5 am September 15 during the full moon ? how long does she wait?
If we read verse 2234 to mean wait 4 ?months? and 10 days there is no difference.
Peace