For those who think polygany is right...

Dotty

I think polygamy is okay so long as there is clear divorce laws protecting the women whenever they want to get out of their polygamous relationship.

This seems like a fair method for women, if everything is laid on the table beforehand, but women must always consider there can be children produced from these marriages. It's not all about the wife. If they change their minds later it's going to affect the children too.

peace,
dotty

Dotty

I think very much that what happens in a marriage is unique though and there is no real universal yardstick. While I hope, with all my heart to be the only wife, I hope even more that should he wish to change that situation, he talks to me first. And more importantly, I hope that if he changes that situation, it is for the right reasons, not to simply skirt having an affair.

I spoke with a gentleman once and he told me this

"The only way he would ever consider taking a second wife is if his brother died and left his sister-in-law a widow. He would then consider marrying his sister-in-law (after permission from his first wife) in order to give her security."

This seems honorable on the surface, but if he really wanted to care for his sister-in-law + kids, then he can do that without marrying her. Unless of course, there is sex involved... then he would have to marry her to be lawful. Would the first wife agree to the 2nd wife as long as he never touched her? Would the 2nd wife agree as well? What if they all agreed and someone changed their mind later?

peace,
dotty

Dotty

It is every society who must determine what it can bear and what it can't, or which evil is leer for it, or the inflection point where the bearable becomes unbearable.

Nice idea, but I think we could apply the word person rather than society. Even in each society there are different views on things.

peace,
dotty

farida

Salaam Farida

? ?

Salaam Samia,

So, the plight of women in Iraq should not bother you since they can work and support themsleves. I am not being cruel, but men are also suffering with no jobs and danger to go out to work, if there is any work. Shall we marry them in twos, three and fours

There is more to polygyny than getting a breadwinner and I see no reason to discuss this further, as we obviously see this differently. Unlike many debaters on this forum, who stick to their guns and never learn from any input, no matter how convincing, I am willing to change my view, if you could convince me that the monogamous society has erased the phenomenon of mistresses/girlfriends.
The hypocrisy of monogamy is illustrated everywhere. I would be willing to discuss this with you at length if you can show me that monogamy guarantees a woman?s due rights. Since you did not engage in my thread ?support the mistress....? I suggest you check that thread for my views.

I think huruf's thread along this concept is quite significant.
By all means

And by what right does he take the FIRST child of the second wife and gives it to the first wife?

If I were to tell them today that there is sister Samia who ask?s ?what right does he take the FIRST child of the second wife and gives it to the first wife?? I am sure you would not be pleased with their response? I only gave you a true example as you asked for it in your last post and if that looks unfair to you then that?s your problem.
To me that family was a great example of generosity and sharing everything but not everyone can understand what that means.The arrangement in that family may have looked unfair to many but after the death of the husband both wives stayed together and the first son never complained about this arrangement; only outsiders seem to make it an issue.

This is an example of two women who like to be under the thumb of a controlling man. Yes, they will be happy, of course, just like the happiness of a saddist married to two mascocists.
If the first son of that family was to read these remarks I am sure he would oppose you, as he considered himself lucky to have received the love of two mums and would shut everyone up whose views were similar to yours.

Again, what if it was him who was sterile? Would he want her to have "her children"? Which is stronger motherhood or fatherhood And by what right does he take the FIRST child of the second wife and gives it to the first wife??

I too raised such objections, but only as a teenager and now that I have learned more about life and how complicated it is, I do not ask such immature questions anymore, since I am no longer na?ve. I know of women who have had a child in a marriage where her rich husband was known to be sterile and I also know many feminists, who sleep around with married men and then go about shouting that polygyny is unacceptable.
I also know of wives who clearly know that their husbands sleep around with other women, but would never accept polygyny. I also know women who are barren and could not accept polygyny at all so they left the husband and went on with life. This is the beauty of Islam; there is no compulsion and divorce is an option, however I do not judge other peoples decisions, nor do I impose a fit all solution to various problems. Each case is unique and every individual has a different perception of life.

I still have lot to learn and I am open to new challanges

peace
farida

Dotty

I also know many feminists, who sleep around with married men and then go about shouting that polygyny is unacceptable.
I also know of wives who clearly know that their husbands sleep around with other women, but would never accept polygyny. I also know women who are barren and could not accept polygyny at all so they left the husband and went on with life. This is the beauty of Islam; there is no compulsion and divorce is an option

Very true, which is why I started this thread. For those who believe it is right, or maybe I should have said "for those who believe it is a good thing", then what rules do they feel apply to it? I know people have different views and ideas. I live and work in a community of non-muslims and I find people are quite curious about Islam. Maybe I can have a better understanding and show some intelligence when this topic confronts me in the future.

peace,
dotty

jankren

Polygamy is harmless and can even be beneficial in certain situation so long as as I said there is clear divorce law that protect the women. However, this is not the case in some countries where polygamy is legal. Over there divorce appeal is not so easy for the women.

huruf

Marriage is a social question. What we are talking about is not that you marry a person in a desert island but that what you do is recognized or not by the whole society an respected or. For all we know, right now, if you want to have two or three wives de facto, nobody will hamper you, but you should see yourself to the kind od arrangements you make that they don't run counter to the law or that they are at all practicable, because of the law or because of the environment. I am all for personal freedom and responsibility, but there are things that are conditioned or imposed by the society in which one lives and the person adjusts or is made to adjust, sometimes gently by the force of things, at times with pressure. At any rate, marriage is ruled by laws and each person cannot have a law for herself or himself. Depending on the understanding of a society, laws may be approved that give more or less scope to individual autonomy, but again, depends on the society.

Hope i have written understandably

Salaam

Dotty

Marriage is a social question. What we are talking about is not that you marry a person in a desert island but that what you do is recognized or not by the whole society an respected or. For all we know, right now, if you want to have two or three wives de facto, nobody will hamper you, but you should see yourself to the kind od arrangements you make that they don't run counter to the law or that they are at all practicable, because of the law or because of the environment. I am all for personal freedom and responsibility, but there are things that are conditioned or imposed by the society in which one lives and the person adjusts or is made to adjust, sometimes gently by the force of things, at times with pressure. At any rate, marriage is ruled by laws and each person cannot have a law for herself or himself. Depending on the understanding of a society, laws may be approved that give more or less scope to individual autonomy, but again, depends on the society.

Hope i have written understandably

Salaam

salaam huruf,

You have excellent points here.

It is correct that marriage laws cannot be personalized, but we do have choices and we can personalize our lifestyle as long as it falls within the law. We can get married or not, we can get divorced or not, we can have more than one wife, if permitted, or not. Just because a law is there... doesn't mean we will choose that route or be forced to choose that route. I'm not going to drink alcohol just because a society has a law that says I can or have a boyfriend on the side because a society has no law against it.

peace,
dotty

Al_Araf

Salam dotty. When Allah permits men to have more than one wife. You are not superior to Allah that you may interfere in that right. Allah has not appointed you to alter the Quran. The insidious nature of your posts masquerading as questions is evident.

Either you obey Allah, in which case you do not dispute that which Allah has appointed, or you do not obey Allah, and you seek a way against Allah and the hudood Allah has established. The believing women accept obedience to Allah and his hudood. The disbelieving women seek a way against Allah and the hudood.

Allah is mighty wise.

Dotty

Salam dotty. When Allah permits men to have more than one wife. You are not superior to Allah that you may interfere in that right. Allah has not appointed you to alter the Quran. The insidious nature of your posts masquerading as questions is evident.

Get off your high horse brother. I did not say anything in this thread that I am against anything. You feel you are such an authority as you parade around the marriage & divorce section a lot. Since you feel there is no such thing as marriage & divorce in the Quran then spend your time elsewhere in this forum. I am a sincere woman searching for answers. It's rather interesting how no one has ever said bad things to me before, but you scout me out to say bad things to me. I will not tolerate your bashing anymore.

Al_Araf

Salam dotty Allah says in sura Al Nisa.

434 Arajaalun qawaamun illa alnisa bima fadl Allahu badahum ala badin wa bima anfaquwa min amulihim fasalahatu hafizatu lil ghaibi bima hifz Allah wa alatee takhafun nashuzahun fa adahunna fi al madajia wa udrubuhun faan ataankum fala tabghu alayhin sabeela in Allah kaan aleya kabira.

Allah is the greatest.

Samia

Salam dotty Allah says in sura Al Nisa.

434 Arajaalun qawaamun illa alnisa bima fadl Allahu badahum ala badin wa bima anfaquwa min amulihim fasalahatu hafizatu lil ghaibi bima hifz Allah wa alatee takhafun nashuzahun fa adahunna fi al madajia wa udrubuhun faan ataankum fala tabghu alayhin sabeela in Allah kaan aleya kabira.

Allah is the greatest.

It seems that you cannot even read the qur'aan correctly. If you cannot correctly transliterate a verse then do not transliterate it. This is like wrongly reciting a verse.

Samia

You do not know which of the above three verses you were transliterating?
You do not know what the first word of the first verse is?
I hope that you become more humble and do not look down upon other memebers unnecessarily. We all make mistakes, the worst of us are those who believe they are the only ones who hold the truth and know exactly what God meant. If we cannot read God's words correctly, we are the least to make such claims.

Leyna

Hi & salam

Sorry to reply to such an old post, but I had to comment on this.

Take Germany after the thirty years war, I think it was, but I can't swear it. Poligamy was legalised, there were so few men, that it seemed, in effect as the lesser evil.

I am curious where you go this information from because it is wrong. http//img651.imageshack.us/img651/7323/iconeeky.gif Polygamy was never legalized in Germany.

After WW II it was the women who literally built the country back up again with their own hands, and many of them were not only widows but also providers and caretakers.

huruf

Not of course it was not after world war II. It was an old war before Germany was unified. As I say I can't remember which and it was estalbshed in one of the states that later on became Germany. It was in a history book that I read it.

I read it in a history book. And the book could be wrong, of course, but what you hve said up till now, doesn't make reject it. You seem to think that my idea of Germany starts with World War II where I have stated already something notoriously older although of course without being sure, as I mention. I you know history that well you may throw some light on it. But if you don't well... we won't be any further.

Salaam

Leyna

Not of course it was not after world war II. It was an old war before Germany was unified. As I say I can't remember which and it was estalbshed in one of the states that later on became Germany. It was in a history book that I read it.

Oh, ok. Could you try to remember when and where it was? I would really like to know and check up on that.

You seem to think that my idea of Germany starts with World War II

Yeah, I shouldn't have jumped to conclusions, sorry! peace I think the reason I assumed that you were referring to the time after WW II was because I previously read texts about polygamy claiming that after WW II there was a conference where it was decided to legalize polygamy in Germany, which is not true.

Leyna

Stress, quarrels and neglect the 'normal' polygamous family

A large-scale study currently underway across Malaysia uncovers proof that polygamy harms everyone involved from emotionally scarred children, to wives who think they?d be better off as single-parent households, and even husbands who admit ?I wouldn?t recommend it for my son; it?s quite stressful.?

When Malaysian women?s rights organisation Sisters in Islam (SIS) argued that polygamy causes social problems and has a negative emotional impact, leading figures of the Islamic establishment in Malaysia would ask, ?What proof do you have??. When SIS cited cases of women who had approached the organisation for legal services or support, the rejoinder was ?That?s only isolated cases? or ?When it?s properly practiced, polygamy can create harmonious family life.?

To provide concrete data to support its anecdotal evidence about the impact of polygamy, in late 2007 SIS launched an ambitious research project whose findings are now beginning to come in. Working with academics from three universities, the research has completed about 1,500 qualitative and quantitative questionnaires from across all 12 states of peninsular Malaysia, along with dozens of in-depth interviews. The SIS research may make a significant contribution to global analysis of polygamy because unlike most studies which focus on the impact on wives, this study is also interviewing husbands and children.

Under pressure from Islamic neo-conservatives who have a highly patriarchal view of gender and marital relations, Malaysia?s law on polygamy which was once considered among the most rights-protecting for women, has been significantly relaxed. The 1984 federal Islamic Family Law had five conditions a Muslim man had to fulfil before he could take another wife that he had the financial means; could guarantee equal treatment of the wives; no harm would be caused to the existing wife/wives; the additional marriage was ?just and necessary?; and that the proposed marriage should not directly or indirectly lower the existing wife and dependants? standard of living.

In 1996, the last condition was deleted and in 2004 ?just and necessary? was amended to ?just or necessary?. This removed the Qur?anic requirement of justice and fairness, and since ?necessary? was not defined in law in Malaysia?s increasingly Islamised atmosphere many men found it easier to obtain permission for a polygamous marriage and exploit legal loopholes without fear of legal or social rebuke. The impact of this shift remains anecdotal since the research found that the Religious Department?s records for 1993-2007 are very uneven. Whether or not actual numbers of polygamous marriages have increased in recent decades, there has been a noticeable normalising of the practice. Many conservative Malay-Muslim politicians ironically claim they have women?s needs at heart, saying ?In the modern context, there are more and more educated, professional women who remain unmarried so we should encourage polygamy?.

Preliminary findings from the SIS research show that many children of first wives report a strong negative emotional impact. Most reported neglect from the father once he got a second wife and more so when he started having children from her. Especially where fathers had more than two wives or more than 10 children, daughters and sons often claim their father can hardly recognise them. When they went to ask for pocket money or school fees, their father would look at them clueless and say ?Which mother are you from??. This happened across the classes.

Polygamy also negatively affects the relationship between children and their mothers, with the former resenting the mother for being unable to make sure the father does not neglect them or for becoming depressed and also neglecting their emotional needs. Regardless of gender, they lack of confidence in their own ability to have stable relationships because they have only experienced a family life filled with traumatic quarrels and resentment. The children of second wives usually cope better because from birth they know their father has another family. But the children from the first family can see the comparison the lack of time, lack of resources, their father?s absence when they needed him. Some of the children insisted SIS help them set up a support group to help them cope with feelings of isolation; at school they cannot relate their problems to anyone as they feel embarrassed about the situation.

The findings about the impact on children may offer an important opening for advocacy and change that can ultimately benefit women. Historically, changes to patriarchal interpretations of Muslim laws have often come in an effort to protect children?s rights. For instance, many Muslim countries now follow the principle of the best interests of the child when deciding custody, rather than rigidly applying traditionalist interpretations which deny mothers custody.

The impact of polygamy on women has both economic and emotional aspects. The research has found that many men in both lower and middle economic groups marry second wives so that they will contribute to the economic maintenance of their polygamous families. Women contribute to the nafaqa (the Muslim husband?s responsibility for maintenance) which polygamous husbands tend not to fulfil. Thinking through the last month?s expenditures, one second wife discovered for herself that the husband only provides one-third of the family?s basic needs rice, sugar, coffee, vegetables, school fees, expenditure for school books, etc. The social reality is that most Malaysian women are breadwinners for their families, but women in polygamous families even more so. Many have some cottage business such as catering or making snacks without which there won?t be food on the table. A number of polygamous wives reported ?I might as well be a single mother.? Under current government welfare policy, a single mother (divorced or widowed) can apply for welfare support but a polygamous wife, at least on paper, has a husband and cannot get that support. The interviews have challenged the traditional perception that second wives are ?husband stealers? who will benefit from the marriage as they reveal that most, even in the middle classes, live a hard life.

SIS? research also looks at nafkah batin, a Malay term referring to sexual and emotional support. Those who support polygamy invariably claim that polygamy works if the husband properly follows the practice of giliran, or ?turn-taking? dividing time between the wives. All polygamous men claim they practice giliran, perhaps reflecting a subconscious recognition that the Qur?an enjoins equal treatment of multiple wives. But the in-depth interviews show that giliran is in fact unworkable unplanned domestic crises such as a child falling sick or work crises all intervene to derail any giliran. Some polygamous men even seem to be trapped in the fable of masculine prowess. Taxi drivers with wives in two different states, or those who lose time travelling between families, say they are sometimes simply too tired to give time to their other family. When asked ?Would you recommend polygamy to your children, your son?? a number of the better educated, professional middle class men said, ?Seriously, I have to admit I wouldn?t. It?s quite stressful.?

Not just unworkable, the giliran ?roster? in fact seems to be largely a myth. When husbands were asked ?So who?s turn is it today?? they were unable to answer, while wives simply said ?Oh my husband keeps track of that.? Thus expected to follow the husband?s lead, women have evolved strategies for keeping their man. Interviews with rural women found widespread reliance on black magic to make sure the first husband does not forget her or to hex the second family. But the rural women also said ?Don?t underestimate this. Even women in the Klang Valley area resort to this. They come back home to Kelantan and Terengganu, and consult the local bomoh.?

Husbands also report that the first wife becomes sexually competitive and manipulative. One said, ?Before I took another wife, our sexual relations had waned a bit but as soon as I got married she is making more demands and I?m getting exhausted and I think it?s affecting my heart problem.? A second wife in Kelantan said ?He asked me to give him a massage in order to ?revive? him. Hell, I gave him such a good massage and he fell asleep and started snoring and that ?thing? would not even go up!? The women quite openly discuss these problems. Although some of the interviews verge on the farcical, this should not detract from the fact that polygamous wives clearly suffer profound emotional and economic harm, two powerful grounds for future campaigning. But Malaysia may not yet be ready for a public discussion about the right to a satisfying sexual relationship, clearly also an issue in polygamous situations.

Far from the traditional Muslim ideal of a harmonious family with a male breadwinner providing all the family?s needs, the SIS research is revealing how polygamy leads to unstable and dysfunctional families and how the possibility of being just between wives and avoiding economic harm is a myth.

The research findings will be discussed at the 7th biennial Malaysian Studies Conference (MSC7) in March. SIS also plans booklets based on the findings.

Source

Leyna

Many Muslim nations which now consider polygamy unconstitutional have justified such changes in legislation on the basis of the overall Qur'anic perspective on marriage, as well as on modern Islamic perspectives of marriage. The marriage of subjugation at the time of revelation was premised on the need for females to be materially provided for by some male. The ideal male for a female child was the father, and for the adult female, the husband. This economic perspective of marriage - as indicated by several verses discussed above - will also be reviewed here with regard to polygamy.

If you fear that you will not deal justly with the orphans, marry women of your choice, two, three or four. But if you fear that you will not be able do do justly (with them), then only one, ... to prevent you from doing justice. (4.3)

First, this verse is about treatment of orphans. Some male guardians, responsible for managing the wealth of orphaned female children, were unable to refrain from unjust management of that wealth. (42). One solution suggested to prevent mismanagement was marriage to the female orphans. On the one hand, the Qur'an limited this number to four, and on the other hand, the economic responsibility of maintaining the wife would counterbalance the access to the wealth of the orphaned female through the responsibility of management. However, most proponents of polygamy seldom discuss it within the context of just treatment of orphans.

In fact, as far as they are concerned, the only measurement of justice between wives is material - can a man equally support more than one wife? This is an extension of the archaic idea of marriages of subjugation, because fairness is not based on quality of time, equality in terms of affection, or on spiritual, moral, and intellectual support. These general terms of social justice are not considered with regard to just treatment with wives.

It is especially clear that this verse is concerned with justice dealing justly, managing funds justly, justice to the orphans, and justice to the wives, etc. Justice is the focus of most modern commentaries concerned with polygamy. In the light of the verse 4129 - "You are never able to be just and fair as between women ..." - many commentators assert that monogamy is the preferred marital arrangement of the Qur'an. Surely, it is impossible to attain the Qur'anic ideal with regard to mutuality ("They (feminine plural) are raiment for you (masculine plural) and you are raiment for them" (2187)), and with regard to building between them "love and mercy" (3021), when the husband-father is split between more than one family.

Finally, with regard to three common justifications given for polygamy, there is no direct sanction in the Qur'an. One is financial in the context of economic problems such as unemployment, a financially capable man should care for more than one wife. Again, this assumes that all women are financial burdens reproducers, but not porducers. In today's world a lot of women neither have nor need male supporters. For one thing, it is no longer accepted that only men can work, do work, or are the most productive workers, in all circumstances. With regard to work outside the home, i.e. paid employment, the market is based on productivitiy. Productivity in turn is based on a numer of factors, and gender is only one of them. Surely, polygamy is no simple solution to complex eoconomic problems.

Another rationale given for a man having more than one wife centres on the woman who is unable to have children. Again, there is no mention of this as a rationale for polygamy in the Qur'an. However, the desire for children is natural. Thus, consideration for the barren man and the barren woman should not exclude either from the chance of marriage, nor from the care and upbringing of children. What possible solution is mutually available when the wife or husband is sterile and the couple cannot have their own children?

In a world of war and devastation, there are still orphaned Muslim (and other) children who would benefit from the love and care of childless couples. Perhaps caring for all of the earth's children might be practised by Muslims in the light of global catastrophes still unresolved. One's own blood relations are important, but perhaps not in terms of the final judgement of one's ability to care and nurture.

Finally, the third rationale given for polygamy not only has no sanction in the Qur'an but is clearly un-Qur'anic as it attempts to sanction men's unbridled lust that if a man's sexual needs cannot be satisfied by one wife, he should have two. Presumably, if his lust is greater than that, he should have three, and on until he has four. Only after this fourth are the Qur'anic principles of self-constraint, modesty, and fidelity finally to be exercised.

As self-constraint and fidelity are required at the onset for the wife, these moral virtues are equally significant for the husband. It is clear that the Qur'an does not stress a high, civilized level for women while leaving men to interact with others at the basest level. Otherwise, the mutual responsibility of khilafah (trusteeship) would be left to one half of humanity while the other half remains near the animal state.

Amina Wadud Qur'an and Woman. Rereading the Sacred Text from a Woman's perspective

unknownuser

Peace Leyna

Interesting text.

I think polygany is not accepted in islam except in rare occasions. And i think marrying more than one woman is not like ordinary marriage. I think it is a contract between two persons, so that the man can provide the woman (non-lust), not have sex with the second, third and fourth wife. From what i have read in the Quran, until now, i have not found a verse that says that a man can have sex with more than one wife (other wifes than his own). So marriage with more than one woman is most likely different from ordinary marriage (where the couple have sex). It is most likely a non-sexual marriage, a contract, to help the women. I have to study this in detail, so i don't have any evidence for my claims yet (keep this in mind).

My current view on polygany is the same as Wakas
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9599777.msg253198#msg253198
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9599777.msg253204#msg253204

Alen

salaam,
For those of you who believe polygany is right to do... what are your views on the rules of that?
Can the husband take any wife he wants regardless of whether or not the current wife/wives agree? What about hiding it from the current wife completely? Do you think it's humanly possible to treat them equally? It is next to impossible to treat ones children equally... since kids need different things according to their growth and development... i.e. parents can believe child # 1 at age 14 should have a cell phone because they are responsible and really need one, then when child # 2 turns 14 the same parents don't think they are ready for such a responsibility, but child # 2 feels he/she is not being treated fairly.
Women have different personalities, needs, feelings, ideas, etc. Unless 2 women are exactly alike... how can they be treated equally? How would any man know what was equal in the eyes of the women? This seems irrational and that is why I believe God enforced the law about equality.
This is a curiosity to me because I have read posts on here of people supporting the polygany idea, but I have not read (unless I mistakenly missed it) what rules you feel should be followed while practicing it.
And, incase any of you are wondering about me... I am my husband's only wife.
peace,
dotty

Peace,
Respect.

Sister, I personally believe that the verse in question - the first few verses in the chapter four which discuss this matter, talks about the time after some world war has already happened. A man cannot simply mary foru blondes and just have fun all day, every day.
I would say a man is allowed to marry up to four widows, emphasis on the widows, in order to take care of the orphans.

God knows best.
Peace.