Hot/"ramadan" Answer

belH

Peace All;

Please understand why Ayman is defending his calender

http//www.webexhibits.org/calendars/year-history.html#SECTION00380000000000000000

And here is its history which shows that it has no religous bases at Mohamed time nor Jesus time nor Moses time

http//www.webexhibits.org/calendars/year-history.html

Now, ask yourself a Question, Why Ayman is doing this?
Peace

Peace Farida,

This is just a lazy excuse. Surely, anyone can do better than having faith in a guy who skips over the word sun in 105 and is unable to read 1712 or other clear signs such as 1247-49 showing that the year is solar, etc.

(Joseph) said "For seven years shall ye diligently sow as is your wont and the harvests that ye reap ye shall leave them in the ear except a little, of which ye shall eat. (12-47) "Then will come after that (period) seven dreadful (years), which will devour what ye shall have laid by in advance for them, (all) except a little which ye shall have (specially) guarded. (12-4 "Then will come after that (period) a year in which the people will have abundant water, and in which they will press (wine and oil)." (12-49)

Now understand what yousuf was refering to, as an Egyption

The following is a quotation from http//www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0002061.html
The Egyptian Calendar
The ancient Egyptians used a calendar with 12 months of 30 days each, for a total of 360 days per year. About 4000 B.C. they added five extra days at the end of every year to bring it more into line with the solar year.1 These five days became a festival because it was thought to be unlucky to work during that time.

The Egyptians had calculated that the solar year was actually closer to 3651/4 days, but instead of having a single leap day every four years to account for the fractional day (the way we do now), they let the one-quarter day accumulate. After 1,460 solar years, or four periods of 365 years, 1,461 Egyptian years had passed. This means that as the years passed, the Egyptian months fell out of sync with the seasons, so that the summer months eventually fell during winter. Only once every 1,460 years did their calendar year coincide precisely with the solar year.

In addition to the civic calendar, the Egyptians also had a religious calendar that was based on the 291/2-day lunar cycle and was more closely linked with agricultural cycles and the movements of the stars.

The correct figures are lunation 29 d, 12 h, 44 min, 2.8 sec (29.530585 d); solar year 365 d, 5 h, 48 min, 46 sec (365.242216 d); 12 lunations 354 d, 8 h, 48 min, 34 sec (354.3671 d).

in 105 and is unable to read 1712

(&#65279
We have made the Night and the Day as two (of Our) Signs the Sign of the Night have We obscured, while the Sign of the day We have made to enlighten you; that ye may seek bounty from your Lord, and that ye may know the number and count of the years all things have We explained in detail. (17-12)

That is how we calculate the day; it is very clear by the Sun Cycle as I said before. But to calculate the Month, God said to use Moon Cycle and count its days. and to calculate the year is 12 Month.

(&#65279
It is He Who made the sun to be a shining glory and the moon to be a light (of beauty), and measured out stages for it that ye might know the number of years and the count (of time). No wise did Allah create this but in truth and righteousness. (Thus) doth He explain His Signs in detail, for those who understand. (10-5)
I hope you can read that the Moon Stages (Full and Crescent) is for calculating the year, and not the Sun (it does not have stages)

Is that all you have as proof to call for 2 Rammadan months and two Night of Measuer?

ayman

Peace Farida,

Let's focus on what is important and leave aside the idle talk. Here is the most important and constructive thing you said and I commend you on it

I have never claimed to possess greater understanding than you or any one else I believe in my own one to one connection with God and this connection has carried me through. You may call me lazy, but I do not want to rely on your, a mullah or the interpretation of anyone else regarding my faith.

If you do not want to "rely on me, a mullah or the interpretation of anyone else regarding your faith" then you have got to read the great reading and present your own case. There is no way around it.

Therefore, let's try a different approach going forward instead of you asking me questions and then me answering. If we continue to do this then you would simply continue to not ponder on my answers and ignore them and I would be robbing you of a chance to reach your own understanding and make a one on one connection with the god. So let's try an approach where I only give you a small hint and you research and answer the question yourself. To start with let's use this approach with the 2 questions that you had

Why the summer solstice?

Hint 1712 and 2185
Hint use online Classical Arabic dictionary http//www.baheth.info/index.jsp to look up the meaning for key words such as "shahr" and "ramadan" and confirm which meaning best fits in the context given the above passages.

What was the motive to mess up the timing of the restriction after the death of the prophet?

Hint 936-37, 51, 594-96.
Also, when you check http//www.baheth.info/index.jsp for the meaning of "ramadan" see how some derived meanings relate to hunting.

Please present your answers when you are ready. If you don't want to present them now then that is fine too and I hope that in the future you will.

I hope this helps.

Peace,

Ayman

belH

Peace all;
Here are some links so you can learn about Summer Solistic

http//www.religioustolerance.org/summer_solstice.htm

http//www.sikhnet.com/people/summer-solstice-2008

http//www.ocregister.com/ocregister/travel/newsandnotes/article_1713297.php

http//www.beliefnet.com/story/107/story_10796_1.html
Peace

Sibute

Hey Ayman,
This thread that you posted which reads Hot/Ramadhan is very enlightening although I must say it got washed away by several views through their inconsistent and irrelevant replies .Acceptable also are your views concerning the astro calculations of the movements of the heavenly bodies which conforms with precise modern day calculations done by astro physicists and scientistsand astro researchers.
My question is if the northern summer solstice begins from the prescribe date of around 21st June and therafter the scorching moon avails itself due to movement of the earth relative to the stationary positions of the heavenly bodies will it be possible for the communities along the narrow parallels of the equator observe not one but 2 scorching moons every 6 months when the sun moves up and down between the notherthern and southern tropics of cancer and capricorn?
Please elaborate as I need to decide when to fast?

Thank you.

ayman

Peace Sibute,

This thread that you posted which reads Hot/Ramadhan is very enlightening although I must say it got washed away by several views through their inconsistent and irrelevant replies .Acceptable also are your views concerning the astro calculations of the movements of the heavenly bodies which conforms with precise modern day calculations done by astro physicists and scientistsand astro researchers.

Thank you for your kind comments. What is amazing is that with all the advancements and precise calculations in modern astronomy, no scientist or astro physicist has proposed a simple and fool proof method of intercalation to use lunar months with a solar year. In one sentence in 936 the god tells us that we simply have to count exactly 12 full-moons in every single year. This means that we would skip counting the 13th full-moon that we get every three years. This is the most simple and elegant solution and it is amazing that no one has put it in such simple terms even with all the advancements in astronomy.

My question is if the northern summer solstice begins from the prescribe date of around 21st June and therafter the scorching moon avails itself due to movement of the earth relative to the stationary positions of the heavenly bodies will it be possible for the communities along the narrow parallels of the equator observe not one but 2 scorching moons every 6 months when the sun moves up and down between the notherthern and southern tropics of cancer and capricorn?
Please elaborate as I need to decide when to fast?

If you are nearer to the tropic of cancer then the scorching full moon would be with the northern hemisphere. If you are nearer to the tropic of capricon then the scorching full moon would be with the southern hemisphere. I think that if you are exactly on the equator then you have the choice to fast either with the northern or the southern hemispheres.

Peace,

Ayman

farida

[

Why the summer solstice?

Hint 1712 and 2185
Hint use online Classical Arabic dictionary http//www.baheth.info/index.jsp to look up the meaning for key words such as "shahr" and "ramadan" and confirm which meaning best fits in the context given the above passages.

What was the motive to mess up the timing of the restriction after the death of the prophet?

Hint 936-37, 51, 594-96.
Also, when you check http//www.baheth.info/index.jsp for the meaning of "ramadan" see how some derived meanings relate to hunting.

Please present your answers when you are ready. If you don't want to present them now then that is fine too and I hope that in the future you will.

I hope this helps.

Peace,

Ayman

Salaam Ayman

Thank you for the hints above, today I sat down and read again the debate in this thread between you Marie and Zenje and others. Before I started reading I made sure I do not have any preconceived notions and I also read the hints u recommended and it is very convincing, but there comes a point where all the eloquence of that discussion fades away and very valid questions from the Qur?an come to mind.
Here is what you said earlier

This is why the passage says "whoever amongst you witnessed". Implied in this is that some amongst you would not witness this cosmic phenomenon but fasting is only obligated on those who did.

a-I beleive there is deeper meaining in 'those amongst you who witnessed?.

My questions to you is if what you say above is ture than this verse gives me freedom not to fast, just as a blind person is exempted.
The verse only says ?those amongst you who witnessed?; there is no command that I should make any effort to witness Let?s say I was too busy or preferred blogging on my computer and did not go out to witness the scorching moon; in that case I would not be obliged to fast and could get away with no fasting.

b- I see that you carry the image of the scorching full moon on your avatar as you reminded me

As for an online sighting of the scorching full moon, look at my avatar on the left side of your screen.

You seem to hold the sighting of this event as an important part of belief, whereas nowhere in the Quran are we asked to make any effort to witness it. I am sorry I'm not accusing you of anything but the importance you give to seeing this cosmic phenomenon is similar to these

More than 30,000 summer solstice revellers refused to let a chilly, wet morning dampen their spirits as they welcomed the longest day of the year.
The solstice, also known as the pagan festival of Litha, attracts people from across the country and has been celebrated for centuries.
Stonehenge was constructed so the rising sun only reached the middle of the stones for just one day of the year.
Pagans believe the summer solstice marks the marriage between the sun and the earth. In astronomical terms, it marks the day when the planet is most tilted towards the sun and produces the longest period of daylight of the year in the northern hemisphere

I am here to learn and would be looking forward to your convincing evidence to my points above and would welcome any frank discussion.

peace

farida

Peace Samia,

Also, please notice that the moon is described as measured in "manazil". From its etymology, I don't think that the word "manajil" simply means stages. NZL also has the connotation of something going down. So the cycle is described as starting with the moon "descending/going down in stages". Of course, it can only "descend" from the full-moon stage.

Peace,

Ayman

And
I still do not know how to properly use the dictionary you suggested bur I understand "manajil" means stages towards a goal/ ascending/ stages towards a manjil.
Please correct me if I am wrong I welcome contribution from everyone here.
peace

belH

Peace all,

Another point I would like to share with you; The following is a Quotion from Ayman 4 years ago

Sister, you ignore that you are starting to count 4 "periods" from "ramadan", so according to you the hunting restriction is early fall-winter. Where I am in the Northern Hemisphere, fall is deer hunting season because that is when they are the most plentiful. Hence, your preservation of land-game argument is not factual.

As you can note Rammadan is the begining of 4 restricted Months. Thus according to Ayman, if Rammadan Moon starts in June 15 (solistic Moon), then the end of the 4 restricted Months would be in about October 15. In this time according to Ayman would be Fall time.

Now let us explore the following

(&#65279 (&#65279 (&#65279 (&#65279 (&#65279

A (declaration) of immunity from Allah and His Messenger to those of the pagans with whom ye have contracted mutual alliances. (1) Go ye, then for four months, backwards and forwards, (as ye will), throughout the land, but know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah (by your falsehood) but that Allah will cover with shame those who reject Him. (2) And an announcement from Allah and His Messenger, to the people (assembled) on the day of the Great Pilgrimage that Allah and His Messenger dissolve (treaty) obligations with the pagans. If, then ye repent, it were best for you; but if ye turn away know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah. And proclaim a grievous penalty to those who reject Faith. (3) (But the treaties are) not dissolved with those pagans with whom Ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided anyone against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term for Allah loveth the righteous. (4) But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. (9-5)

As you can note the war would start after October 15--Fall Time and not in the heat of Summer time.

Now read the following, from the same Chapter

(&#65279

Those who were left behind rejoiced in their inaction behind the back of the Messenger of Allah they hated to strive and fight with their goods and their persons, in the Cause of Allah they said "Go not forth in the heat. Say "The fire of Hell is fiercer in heat." If only they could understand! (9-81)

Now is the period after October 15 Hot or should be...Mild or Cold? Or Maybe it was Global Warming? confused

Peace

progod

manzil means stage like mawqi3 or even mawqif means situation. waqa3 is to fall and mawqi3 is the point where something lands/falls/happens at any given time. This is how manzil is used, as nazala means to descend like waqa3 is to fall (down) or happen. waqafa means to stop, so mawqif is where something stops at any given time. It's like asking someone how is this exact moment, as if you stopped in time and place. Manzil also means house/home the concept being the place you descend on (constantly). Arabic is flowery like that and very imaginative (and sometimes too specific) in its concepts. Don't blame me. I actually happen to like that about it. Makes it easy to relate to coming from a more imaginative dialect of English and having learned other languages, which involves imagining concepts differently as other languages do. Especially the languages more invovled with latin that have latin based cognates with sometimes all together different meanings. For instance mirar in portuguese is to aim where it's is to look in Spanish. Mirror obviously shares a similar root. I could go on and on. So I find Classical Arabic concepts (even in dialects) very interesting. Even how alot of dialect words were corrupted from Classical is interesting. That's enough from me. You guys can keep on arguing.

Godbless,
Anwar

ayman

Peace Farida,

Thank you for the hints above, today I sat down and read again the debate in this thread between you Marie and Zenje and others. Before I started reading I made sure I do not have any preconceived notions and I also read the hints u recommended and it is very convincing, but there comes a point where all the eloquence of that discussion fades away and very valid questions from the Qur?an come to mind.
Here is what you said earlier
a-I beleive there is deeper meaining in 'those amongst you who witnessed?.
My questions to you is if what you say above is ture than this verse gives me freedom not to fast, just as a blind person is exempted.
The verse only says ?those amongst you who witnessed?; there is no command that I should make any effort to witness Let?s say I was too busy or preferred blogging on my computer and did not go out to witness the scorching moon; in that case I would not be obliged to fast and could get away with no fasting.

Exactly, this is what the verse says. We have been taught otherwise by the Mullahs. Since I was in elementary school we were told that someone who doesn't fast would roast in hell. This is no where mentioned in the great reading. In fact, we are told that even those who can do it but with difficulty (yatiqunuh) should feed a poor person instead. We should fast because it is better for us if we knew. There is no punishment for not fasting. There is nothing to "get away" from.

This is why you and others here who have not witnessed the scorching full-moon last July are exempt from fasting. The only problem occurs when people say "the god told us to fast now" but they have no proof from the great reading for such claim. The problem is not that they didn't fast during the proper time. The problem is that they are saying something about the god which is not true.

b- I see that you carry the image of the scorching full moon on your avatar as you reminded me
You seem to hold the sighting of this event as an important part of belief, whereas nowhere in the Quran are we asked to make any effort to witness it. I am sorry I'm not accusing you of anything but the importance you give to seeing this cosmic phenomenon is similar to these
More than 30,000 summer solstice revellers refused to let a chilly, wet morning dampen their spirits as they welcomed the longest day of the year.
The solstice, also known as the pagan festival of Litha, attracts people from across the country and has been celebrated for centuries.
Stonehenge was constructed so the rising sun only reached the middle of the stones for just one day of the year.
Pagans believe the summer solstice marks the marriage between the sun and the earth. In astronomical terms, it marks the day when the planet is most tilted towards the sun and produces the longest period of daylight of the year in the northern hemisphere
I am here to learn and would be looking forward to your convincing evidence to my points above and would welcome any frank discussion.

As you noticed after pondering on the great reading, we are not compulsed to witness the scorching full-moon or even fast. But it is better for us if we knew. So we should try to do it but there is no punishment or we are not going to go to hell if we don't.

There is nothing in the great reading that tells us that we should witness the summer solstice. The summer solstice can be calculated years in advance as per 1712. The same goes for the sun and moon cycles. The only time witnessing is required it is only the scorching full-moon and it is only for the purpose of fasting. Notice that 105 doesn't say to witness the sun or the moon to know the number of years. In fact both 1712 and 105 refer to the cycles as ways to teach us "calculation".

So back to the solstice. As you noticed, in 1712 we are told that daylight and night are used to know the number of years. Since "daylight and night" are the function of the sun and not the moon so according to 1712 the year is certainly solar. How do we use "daylight and night" to determine the number of years? The only way to use "daylight and night" to determine the year is to look at the interval between two consecutive shortest daylight/longest night (winter solstice) or two consecutive shortest night/longest daylight (summer solstice). Of course the etymology of "shahr ramadan" points to the red moon after the summer solstice.

As you saw from the passage of the great reading, the restriction is about hunting and the Arabs changed the calendar to violate the hunting restrictions. Interestingly "taramad", one of the derivatives "rmd/ramadan" is used to describe a mehtod of hunting where the hunters chase a wild animal in the time of heat in the hot desert until its legs are burned and it falls to the ground for an easy catch. Basically, in the hot time of the year, the Arabs favorite sport was this inhumane way of hunting. Moreover, this time is when young animals have just been born. Of course, those young and inexperienced animals would have been easy prey for this cruel method of hunting. Animals also would have been easy to catch because they get very thirsty in the summer. All that a hunter has to do is wait by the water hole. A young animal or a mother who is extremely thirsty from the heat would be very easy catch even without a weapon. Notice that in 594, it is said that the god would test the believers with wild game that can be easily reached with their hands and spears.

And
I still do not know how to properly use the dictionary you suggested bur I understand "manajil" means stages towards a goal/ ascending/ stages towards a manjil.
Please correct me if I am wrong I welcome contribution from everyone here.

I would also like to hear the opinion of others such as sister Samia. When we look as all the occurrences and derivatives on NZL in the great reading, we see that it has to do with "descending" so when it refers to stages I believe that the connotation is not just any "stage" but specifically "descending stages". Since it is impossible for the moon to go through "descending stages" (or to the point where something descends per Anwar) from anything other than the full-moon, this would indicate that the starting stage is the "full-moon".

I hope this helps.

Peace,

Ayman

anthonywallace

There is no punishment for not fasting. But there is a reward for it.

However,the believers are ordered the fasting, therefore, not fasting without valid reason or to not redeem is disobedience to The God.

Sibute

Hi,

However,the believers are ordered the fasting, therefore, not fasting without valid reason or to not redeem is disobedience to The God

is this a whimsical statement without proofs or quotes from any reliable source? yeah

anthonywallace

Hi,is this a whimsical statement without proofs or quotes from any reliable source? yeah

P

2183 o you who have believed, you are ordered to fast as those before you were, it could be that you fear and obey ( God ). P

eat

farida

Peace Farida,

Exactly, this is what the verse says. We have been taught otherwise by the Mullahs. Since I was in elementary school we were told that someone who doesn't fast would roast in hell. This is no where mentioned in the great reading. In fact, we are told that even those who can do it but with difficulty (yatiqunuh) should feed a poor person instead. We should fast because it is better for us if we knew. There is no punishment for not fasting. There is nothing to "get away" from.
........

.........
I would also like to hear the opinion of others such as sister Samia. When we look as all the occurrences and derivatives on NZL in the great reading, we see that it has to do with "descending" so when it refers to stages I believe that the connotation is not just any "stage" but specifically "descending stages". Since it is impossible for the moon to go through "descending stages" (or to the point where something descends per Anwar) from anything other than the full-moon, this would indicate that the starting stage is the "full-moon".

I hope this helps.

Peace,

Ayman

Peace Ayman

Its early morning here and I couldn?t help checking for your response.

For now I would say this much; Please do not respond to my valid concern like a politician, I have seen enough of Bush and Tony Blair evading the answer and diverting attention.

I look expect more from the one who believes in the great reading (which should also including points raised today by Bilalhamad above)

peace

farida

There is no punishment for not fasting. But there is a reward for it.

Salaam anthonywallace

And what about a blind person who is barred from receiving such a reward ???

peace

ayman

Peace Farida,

For now I would say this much; Please do not respond to my valid concern like a plitician, I have seen enough of Bush and Tony Blair evading the answer and diverting attention.

Now you hurt my feelings putting me in the same sentence as those clowns.

Peace Farida,

Ayman

anthonywallace

Salaam anthonywallace

And what about a blind person who is barred from receiving such a reward ???

peace

???

ayman

Peace Farida,

And what about a blind person who is barred from receiving such a reward ???

You are the only one here barring them. What do you have against blind people?

They are certainly not barred but they are not obligated to fast. I hope that you can see the difference.

Peace,

Ayman

farida

Peace Farida,
As you noticed after pondering on the great reading, we are not compulsed to witness the scorching full-moon or even fast. But it is better for us if we knew. So we should try to do it but there is no punishment or we are not going to go to hell if we don't.

There is nothing in the great reading that tells us that we should witness the summer solstice. The summer solstice can be calculated years in advance as per 1712. The same goes for the sun and moon cycles. The only time witnessing is required it is only the scorching full-moon and it is only for the purpose of fasting. Notice that 105 doesn't say to witness the sun or the moon to know the number of years. In fact both 1712 and 105 refer to the cycles as ways to teach us "calculation".
This is why you and others here who have not witnessed the scorching full-moon last July are exempt from fasting. The only problem occurs when people say "the god told us to fast now" but they have no proof from the great reading for such claim. The problem is not that they didn't fast during the proper time. The problem is that they are saying something about the god which is not true.

Peace,

Ayman

Peace Ayman,

I did not mention any punishment and this was not part of my question it will only divert attention from my concern.
The purpose of fasting
2-183 O you who believe! Observing As-Saum (the fasting) is prescribed for you as it was prescribed for those before you, that you may become Al-Muttaqoon

Does that mean that there is no obligation on the blinds to work towards becoming Al-Muttaqoon are they born Muttaqeen due to having no sight ?
OR
There is an obligation to fast on those who have sight and who happen to witness scorching moon and thus need to become Muttaqeen? Some people associate fasting with punishment so are they in fact punished for witnessing this event ???

So back to the solstice. As you noticed, in 1712 we are told that daylight and night are used to know the number of years. Since "daylight and night" are the function of the sun and not the moon so according to 1712 the year is certainly solar. How do we use "daylight and night" to determine the number of years? The only way to use "daylight and night" to determine the year is to look at the interval between two consecutive shortest daylight/longest night (winter solstice) or two consecutive shortest night/longest daylight (summer solstice). Of course the etymology of "shahr ramadan" points to the red moon after the summer solstice.

As you saw from the passage of the great reading, the restriction is about hunting and the Arabs changed the calendar to violate the hunting restrictions. Interestingly "taramad", one of the derivatives "rmd/ramadan" is used to describe a mehtod of hunting where the hunters chase a wild animal in the time of heat in the hot desert until its legs are burned and it falls to the ground for an easy catch. Basically, in the hot time of the year, the Arabs favorite sport was this inhumane way of hunting. Moreover, this time is when young animals have just been born. Of course, those young and inexperienced animals would have been easy prey for this cruel method of hunting. Animals also would have been easy to catch because they get very thirsty in the summer. All that a hunter has to do is wait by the water hole. A young animal or a mother who is extremely thirsty from the heat would be very easy catch even without a weapon. Notice that in 594, it is said that the god would test the believers with wild game that can be easily reached with their hands and spears.

Thank you for explaining this; as I said in my post no 29 in this thread that
... I am pretty sure that others too have, in the past, played their part in switching the months, but that does not mean I accept Ayman's version.

I would rather keep fasting in a random month than ending up like the Christians http//www.candlegrove.com/solstice.html#turta
A linguistic puzzle.
The rebirth of the sun.
The birth of the Son.
Christmas was transplanted onto the winter solstice, some 1,600 years ago, centuries before the English language emerged from its Germanic roots. Is that why we came to express these two ideas in words that sound so similar?

Notice that 105 doesn't say to witness the sun or the moon to know the number of years. In fact both 1712 and 105 refer to the cycles as ways to teach us "calculation".

If what you say is meant by the surah 1712... surely in the Dome of the Rock sits Makaam-e- Ibrahim and the passage of light over the rock should confirm this . I have watched a programme about rays from the sun falling on those rocks.. Do You have any evidence that the rocks in the Dome of the Rock are aligned with the solstices and equinoxes, I think this could be the way to solve this puzzle as
An utterly astounding array of ancient cultures built their greatest architectures -- tombs, temples, cairns and sacred observatories -- so that they aligned with the solstices and equinoxes. Many of us know that Stonehenge is a perfect marker of both solstices
http//www.candlegrove.com/solstice.html#turta

peace

farida

Peace Farida,

Now you hurt my feelings putting me in the same sentence as those clowns.

Peace Farida,

Ayman

They are not clowns, one avoids straight answers by acting like a clown and the other displays excellent lawyer skills when it comes to playing with words.
Up and coming Obama is good with words too '(

I would also like to hear the opinion of others such as sister Samia. When we look as all the occurrences and derivatives on NZL in the great reading, we see that it has to do with "descending" so when it refers to stages I believe that the connotation is not just any "stage" but specifically "descending stages". Since it is impossible for the moon to go through "descending stages" (or to the point where something descends per Anwar) from anything other than the full-moon, this would indicate that the starting stage is the "full-moon".

I hmm Zl is common in both ?Mana ? ZL? and N-ZL.
Is it same ZL as in ZLIL ?
Samia, Wakas and others we need your help

peace