Quran inheritance mistake
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Salaam mmkhan,
you can agree or disagree with(believe or not believe in) most verses in the Quran depending on your moral preferences, your purpose in life, world-view, culture etc. Verses on ethics, women, justice, social organization, war and peace are examples of that.
But when it comes to mathematics and analytical logic, the rules are universal and objective. We cannot get away from problems with statements like " I think that ...." or "I believe that..." The universal rules are there whether we believe in them or not. Therefore, logical and mathematical inconsistencies and problems in the inheritance verses cast doubt on the entire Quran. This is the source of the crisis that I am going through. One problem concerns the feasibility of the method by which we say X.(SUM OF SHARES)=1 and then find X and multiply each inheritor's share with X. The other concerns the issue of kalala and the contradiction between 412 and 4176 on the share of siblings of the deceased kalala. (Traditional muslims have in fact acknowledged this contradiction and "found a way out" by saying that 412 refers to half siblings and 4176 refers to full siblings.)
These are the sources of my suspicion that some parts of 411-12 and 4176 may have been added later to the revealed text. Maybe God will show signs of this and that would be the way how God protects the Quran in accordance with 159.
I liked what you said. I will wait till God decides for me
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Salaaman Onur,
Sorry for typing mistake in your name in previous message.
Dear! forget about mathematics, universal rules, etc... remember what Allah said
223 "And if you doubt any part of what We have, bestowed from on high, step by step, upon Our servant, then produce a surah of similar merit, and call upon any other than God to bear witness for you -if what you say is true!"
Wain kuntum fee raybin mimma nazzalna AAala AAabdina fatoo bisooratin min mithlihi waodAAoo shuhadaakum min dooni Allahi in kuntum sadiqeena
(223)
224 "And if you cannot do it-and most certainly you cannot do it-then be conscious of the fire whose fuel is human beings and stones which awaits all who deny the truth!"
Fain lam tafAAaloo walan tafAAaloo faittaqoo alnnara allatee waqooduha alnnasu waalhijaratu oAAiddat lilkafireena
(224)
And don't try to run fast, you will fall down on your face and you will lose your teeth. (a friendly advice)
If you don't have a capacity to understand the aayaats, it does NOT mean that AlQuraan is contradictory or fake. It clearly means that you are not capable to handle such a huge matters. Allah says
1038 "And yet, they assert, "has invented it!" Say "Produce, then, a surah of similar merit; and call to your aid whomever you can, other than God, if what you say is true!"
Am yaqooloona iftarahu qul fatoo bisooratin mithlihi waodAAoo mani istataAAtum min dooni Allahi in kuntum sadiqeena
(103
1039 "Nay, but they are bent on giving the lie to everything the wisdom whereof they do not comprehend, and ere its inner meaning has become clear to them Even thus did those who lived before their time give the lie to the truth and behold what happened in the end to those evildoers!"
Bal kaththaboo bima lam yuheetoo biAAilmihi walamma yatihim taweeluhu kathalika kaththaba allatheena min qablihim faonthur kayfa kana AAaqibatu alththalimeena
(1039)
The other concerns the issue of kalala and the contradiction between 412 and 4176 on the share of siblings of the deceased kalala. (Traditional muslims have in fact acknowledged this contradiction and "found a way out" by saying that 412 refers to half siblings and 4176 refers to full siblings.)
These are the sources of my suspicion that some parts of 411-12 and 4176 may have been added later to the revealed text. Maybe God will show signs of this and that would be the way how God protects the Quran in accordance with 159.
Contradiction? ??? How? ??? I don't see any nope
Please let me see where you got stuck in 412 and 4176
And read carefully,
4152 "HAVE YOU given thought if this be truly from God, the while you deny its truth? Who could be more astray than one who places himself deeply in the wrong?
Qul araaytum in kana min AAindi Allahi thumma kafartum bihi man adallu mimman huwa fee shiqaqin baAAeedin
(4152)
4153 "In time We shall make them fully understand Our messages in the utmost horizons and within them?selves, so that it will become clear unto them that this is indeed the truth. Is it not enough that thy Sustainer is witness unto everything?"
Sanureehim ayatina fee alafaqi wafee anfusihim hatta yatabayyana lahum annahu alhaqqu awalam yakfi birabbika annahu AAala kulli shayin shaheedun
(4153)
May Allah guide us all towards the truth.
Regards,
mmKhan -
Selam mmkhan,
The second problem/contradiction that I referred to is that according to 412, when a man dies as a kalalah and has a brother OR a sister, the brother or the sister get 1/6, if there are more siblings they all share a 1/3. Whereas, in 4176, under the same circumstances,that is, when a man dies as a kalalah, the sister gets 1/2(remember that in 412 it was 1/6) and the brother gets whatever is left to him(remember that in 412 the brother's share was fixed at 1/6)
The general problem is that siblings are specified different/contradictory shares under the same circumstances.
As I said, traditional muslims tried to find a solution to this saying that the siblings in 412 are half siblings whereas siblings in 4176 are full siblings. But, this traditional solution is arbitrary and has no Quranic basis. I hope that you have a solution. Thanks
Onur
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As I said, traditional muslims tried to find a solution to this saying that the siblings in 412 are half siblings whereas siblings in 4176 are full siblings. But, this traditional solution is arbitrary and has no Quranic basis. I hope that you have a solution. Thanks
Onur
IF 2+ siblings
412?so if they were more than that, so they are partners in the 1/31 ? 1/3 siblings = 2/3 unallocated?
411 God directs you in your CHILDREN
Children who have the same biological mother are FULL siblings.
Children who have the same biological father are FULL siblings.No such thing as half siblings.
412
IF childless/spouseless kalalatan4176
IF fatherless/childless/spouseless alkalalati -
Nun, what you do is to assume the truth of the Quran in the first place. You distinguish between the kalalatan cases in 412 and 4176 for the whole thing to work. The Quran does not make this distinction. The Quran does not explain that 412= childless/spouseless and 4176= childless/spouseless/fatherless. It is you and me(to some degree) who make this distinction(perhaps no other person than you and me are aware of this distinction ) The distinction, I admit, is a nice one. But it makes sense only if we assume that there cannot be a contradiction in the Quran and two cases should be distinct despite the obvious fact that the same word is used in both(kalalatan).
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Onur, I do not assume and know there are no contradictions.
Is it an obvious fact the same word is used below?
Alam tara ila allatheena ootoo naseeban mina alkitabi yashtaroona alddalalata wayureedoona an tadilloo alssabeela
444 Did you not see to those who were given a share from The Book, they volunteer the misguidance and they want that you (also) be misguided (from) the way?Onthur kayfa yaftaroona AAala Allahi alkathiba wakafa bihi ithman mubeenan
450 See how they are fabricating on God the lies/falsehood, and enough with it, (as an) evident sin/crime. -
Both 412's second part and 4176 talk about the same status, that of kalala. What is your proof that fatherless is added to the status of kalala in 4176 other than that this is (perhaps) the only meaningful way to solve the contradiction?
In the example you give with 444 and 450, we see words with the same roots but radically different meanings. This radical difference does not exist in our discussion of 412 and 4176 where clearly the same status is discussed. In fact, 4176 starts with a claim to clarify kalala.
Therefore, what is your proof that there are two types of kalalas other than that that is what we have to assume to avoid contradiction?
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"alkilaala" is what God gave a definition for a person whose parents died before him/her and has no children. He/she may or may not have a spouse.
This is my understanding of the two verses concerning the kilaala
The 2 verses (412) and (4176) discuss a kilaala once with a spouse and another without spouse. That's why we have discrepency in the ratios of siblings in the two verses. But if we start from the beginning of verse 412, we notice that it addresses the share of spouses, and so the "kilaala" with a spouse and siblings appears.
Verse 4176 is about a kilaala that does not have a spouse.
If we contemplate all the verses on inhertance, they discuss the case of sisters and brothers/daughters and sons as a group. There's no reason to discuss one gender, since all the inheritance will go to them/him/her. Also we notice that the female is the centre of the divison of shares the male's share is dependent on hers. If a female is mentioned, there's a male in opposition, but not vise-versa. Moreover, the fact that there's no mention of the remaining of the inheritance or where it goes contributes to this understanding.Similar to daughters and sons, if there's one female (and one male) she will get the half; he will only get the whole heritage if he is alone. If there are two sisters (and one male), they take 2/3; and above that (each of the three will have 1/3) and if they are four and more then we apply the rule (for the male twice the share of the two females).
Did I miss something?
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Peace Samia,
Did I miss something?
Thank you again for pointing out what is too obvious if we read without preconceptions.
The translations are awful and inject misleading words including the literal.
http//islamawakened.com/Quran/4/12/
Literal?and if (he) was/is a man to be inherited without a child or father or a woman (wife)The above make it seem it pertains only to a man deceased ? what if it was a woman?
412 ?wa-in kana rajulun yoorathu kalalatan awi imraatun
...and if was/is a man to be inherited kalalatan or a womanYou are correct 412 deals with spouses and case is given for kalala with spouse.
It means exactly what it says -- if a man or a woman (the deceased) was kalalatan.The case of alkalalati with no spouse...
4176 They ask your opinion/clarification, say "God decrees/decides in alkalalati, if (a) man/human died, not for him a child?
I'll work a few case examples and see if there are any discrepencies.
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salam onur. there is no problem in any of the quran's verses. the problem is that you are not paying attention to what you read.
411 says allah directs you regarding the inheritance of the children... 412 says for you is half what your wives leave behind if they have no children... then you propose when a man dies...
411 addresses the category of an individual, 412 addresses the category of the estate of a man's wife. your facts, when a man dies, address the category found in 411, not the category found in 412. a dead man cannot inherit from a wife.
please re-analyze your situation using only the rule found in 411, and you will have no problem. the problem is not in the quran verses, the problem is with you.
before you proceed to analyze, you must be aware of the next fact. allah states things in a particular order. the order in which allah states things is important. for example if allah says give half to joe, one third to charlie, and the rest to john. give joe the half first, then of the remaining half give one third to charlie, and the remainder to john.
allah is the lawgiver.
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Peace Al Araf,
Onur brings valid questions and the issue involves being able to solve a case similar to this...
IF sister, mother -- what do we give the sister 1/6 or 1/2?
412...and if (he) was/is a man to be inherited kalalatan or a woman, and for him a brother, or a sister, so for each one from them the 1/6, so if they were more than that, so they are partners in the 1/3...
4176 They ask your opinion/clarification , say "God decrees/decides in alkalalati, if (a) man/human died, not for him a child, and for him (is) a sister, so for her half what he left...
It appears the key difference is not spouse and is stated in the verse --- "not for him a child"
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Al Araf
All verses on inheritance(411, 412 and 4176) deal with the distribution of money when a person dies and leaves money. Now, if the deceased person leaves behind a wife, a mother, a father and 3 sisters, all of these people should be given their shares as specified in the inheritance verses 411 and 412. If we do not give the share of each of these inheritors, then we are not applying the inheritance verses at all. You cannot just apply 411 because you have to give the deceased man's wife her share as specified in 412. It is not the dead man who is inheriting. It is the alive wife who is inheriting. Please read carefully.
Shares of the 3 sisters is specified in 411(2/3). Shares of the parents are specified in 411(1/6 and 1/6) and share of the wife is specified in 412(1/. When you add those shares, you get a number bigger than 1. That was the problem. The problem is not with me.
There is an algebraic solution to this problem and it consists in changing the shares by regarding them as relative to each other and comparing them. Whether this is feasible or not, each has to decide for himself(I go back and forth about this). Nun and Samia have a different and rather idiosyncratic interpretation of the first part of 411 that I do not agree with for the reasons you may find in this thread.
Kalala is a different matter and is the second problem. Quran does not define kalala. I disagree with Samia's last proposal for the following reason. Now, 1) siblings are given shares only when a kalala dies. 2) 411 tells us what the mother's share is when there are siblings(mother gets 1/6) The logical conclusion is that the mother should inherit simultaneosly with the brothers(since her share is made dependent on the share of brothers) And since siblings get a share only in the case of kalala, definition of kalala cannot include motherless.
Again, Quran does not define kalala. Therefore, we have to do guesswork about it. On top of that, we need not just one but two definitions/two guessesfor the same word (one for 412 and one for 4176)
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salam nun de plume.
i attempted to use onur's translation. then i read the actual verse in arabic. the translaton onur is using is flawed. please permit me some time to come to an accurate rendering of the verse, and i will post a reply to your question.
Allah is the best teacher.
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salam nun de plume. i painstakingly went throught the text in arabic and used the best english terms for the arabic terms. this correction changes my prior post appropriately.
sura 412 says and half of your estate is your spouses if you have no child but if there is a child you to you one fourth of it after payments of legacies and debts and family one quarter of it estate they have no child and if they have a child one eighth of their estate after payment of legacies and debts but if the husband has no ascendants or descendants and a brother or a sister each one of them a sixth if they are more than that they share in a third after payment of legacies and debts without harm and loss from allah and allah knows forbears.
please review this corrected translation and see if it clears up the issue for you. it may lead you to another question. if so, i will be glad to reply to your questions.
Allah is the teacher.
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Peace Al Araf,
What happened to the woman in your translation?
412 ?wa-in kana rajulun yoorathu kalalatan awi imraatun
...and if was/is a man to be inherited kalalatan or a womanAlso please distribute accordingly if his only heirs are 1 sister and mother.
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salam nun de plume. i read your question as to what happened to woman in your translation. you then offered that imraatun means woman. i went looking in dictionaries, root word lists, lexicons, and come up with this. other translators claim this means ascendants and descendants and for that reason i deferred to their translation.
... yawrs kalalatan wa amratan... please dont focus on how we use english letters as substitutes, that is not the point
i have at this point found yawrs to mean inherit, kalal to mean rule, and amar to mean command. i am not claiming that i am certain of this, at this time. however, i am sharing this with forum members and requesting input from other forum members here. i have four possible paths of analysis in my mind, either this is a phrase like "white on rice" in which case more research is needed, or this is related to a guardianship issue, or this is related to bequests in a will, or this relates to rulership issues. at this point i have an open mind because none of these analyses are convincing enough to be called conclusive. i am still working on the analysis.
allah raises man by stages.
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Salam Al Araf,
i read your question as to what happened to woman in your translation. you then offered that imraatun means woman. i went looking in dictionaries, root word lists, lexicons, and come up with this. other translators claim this means ascendants and descendants and for that reason i deferred to their translation.
... yawrs kalalatan wa amratan... please dont focus on how we use english letters as substitutes, that is not the point
i have at this point found yawrs to mean inherit, kalal to mean rule, and amar to mean command.
Please focus on using search tools and cross-reference...
http//www.islamicity.com/ps/default.asp?inc=PhoneticSearch.asp
Al-Imran (The Family of Imran)>
An-Nisa (The Women)>
Al-A'raf (The Heights) >
Hud (The Prophet Hud)>
Yusuf (Joseph)>
Al-Hijr (The Rocky Tract)
Maryam (Mary)
An-Naml (The Ants)
Al-Qasas (The Narration)
Al-'Ankabut (The Spider)
Az-Zariyat (The Winds that Scatter)
At-Tahrem (The Banning)
Al-Masad (The Palm Fiber)
Daraba Allahu mathalan lillatheena kafaroo imraata noohin waimraata lootin
6610 God gave an example to those who disbelieved, Noah's woman (wife), and Lot's woman (wife)Wa-ini imraatun khafat min baAAliha nushoozan
4128 And if a woman feared from her husband quarrel/despise412 Walakum nisfu ma taraka azwajukum in lam yakun lahunna waladun fa-in kana lahunna waladun falakumu alrrubuAAu mimma tarakna min baAAdi wasiyyatin yooseena biha aw daynin walahunna alrrubuAAu mimma taraktum in lam yakun lakum waladun fa-in kana lakum waladun falahunna alththumunu mimma taraktum min baAAdi wasiyyatin toosoona biha aw daynin wa-in kana rajulun yoorathu kalalatan awi imraatun walahu akhun aw okhtun falikulli wahidin minhuma alssudusu fa-in kanoo akthara min thalika fahum shurakao fee alththuluthi min baAAdi wasiyyatin yoosa biha aw daynin ghayra mudarrin wasiyyatan mina Allahi waAllahu AAaleemun haleemun
412...and if was/is a man to be inherited kalalatan or a woman, and for him a brother, or a sister, so for each one from them the 1/6, so if they were more than that, so they are partners in the 1/3?
4176 They ask your opinion/clarification, say "God decrees/decides in alkalalati, if (a) man/human died, not for him a child, and for him (is) a sister, so for her 1/2 what he left...
The point is how do we correctly distribute an estate according to Quran when there is no will and which verses to use.
Example...2 sisters, mother
It works if 412 is the case with father and 4176 is the case with no father.
4176...and if they were two, so to them the 2/3 from what he left...
1 - 2/3 sisters = 1/3 mother
I believe (have not checked all possibilities) that it also works if 412 is with children and 4176 is with no child as stated in the verse.
Example...siblings, children
412...so if they were more than that, so they are partners in the 1/3
1 - 1/3 siblings = 2/3 children (distributed according to #of females)
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salam nun de plume. thank you for providing me the resource of the islamicity search engine, i have added it to my favorites.
i conducted a search on the word kalalatan on this search engine this is the url.
http//www.islamicity.com/ps/default.asp?UserString=kalalatan&ref=http%3A%2F%2Ffree-minds.org%2Fforum%2Findex.php%3Ftopic%D16179.180&ShowTranslation=on&ShowTransliteration=on&ShowArabic=on
if you look at the results of the search it shows two verses 412 and 4176. the search engine translates the sentence fragment as "... those who leave no descendants or ascendants as heirs..." in 412 and "...those who leave no descendants or ascendants as heirs..." in 4176.
this is why i stated originally that "kalalatan aw imratan" translate as ascendants and descendants, to which you replied imratan means woman, the source of this discussion.
i then reviewed what you offered and found errors. you translate 4128 as "if a woman feared from her husband" i know the word aal in arabic means family and not husband, and using the word ascendant for imraatan renders 4128 "if the ascendants fear from the family a quarrel" a perfectly plausible translation.
we have to remember, that when the quran was revealed by allah, civil society was not the same as it is today. there were mothers of children who has been willingly inherited by their sons, there were slaves, and other categories of persons in a household, that are not common today. what people of the time of muhammad knew and understood of their world was very different to the world in which we live today. one major source of confusion is an utter misunderstanding of the word nikah.
the quran states men are the protectors and maintainers of women. this use of the term protector renders the understanding of a nikah, not the current fashion of western marriage, but similar to the older form of western marriage in part. the word protector is very similar to the current term guardian or conservator. i am cautious to conclude this is the case because western laws are notorious for changing the defintion of a word based on the whim of the public. a practice inconsistent with law. therefore my conclusion is nikah currently translates as a conservatorship/marriage hybrid, and does not translate as marriage.
therefore i reccomend we not use the term women for imaraatun, use the term ascendants for imraatan, at the present. of course if a person comes up with an example of an arab inscription or writing from the time of muhammad that uses the phrases kalalatan aw imraatan as descendants and ascendant this would confirm the conclusion, it may be that kalalatan aw imratan means a yet unknown category of persons.
allah is the teacher.