Hot/"ramadan" Answer

farida

He does not need our fastings, it is for us , it probably does something good to our bodies, so

He wants us to fast from the first light , which is probably the earliest possible marker, to the night(dusk) last possible marker, He could have easily prescribed , From sun rise to sun set, but he doesnt, why? May be he wants our bodies to toil through a longer duration to extract optimum benifit.

If long duration is the criteria then , fasting in summer solictise makes sense, Rotating through winters, a fast is hardly a fast , infact a winter day fast is like not fasting at all ,

The guys down under can fast during their Red moon for achieving the prescribed benifit, It does not have to be in synch with we living up here,

Moreover the Ayah , saying , who so ever witnesses it shall... is clearly indicating/saying, .... when your time comes do it, and what is that time? summer , longest days , THe toughest time of the year to Cycle our mortal bodies. And indirectly conveying that they should not do it with us , because it will be their winters.

And most likely it is days not a month, cause the command uses the word days , not month, had it been a whole full month , He would not have used the word days.

siki

Salaam Siki
You are talking about the benefits of fasting- the benefits are huge, and thought provoking;
Here we should consider two aspects
a. The benefits of fasting - you can discover this as you pay attention and do research on this.

b. The purpose of fasting - We have been given the purpose of fasting from God 2183 O you who believe, fasting is decreed for you, as it was decreed for those before you, that you may attain salvation.
The purpose of fasting is linked to feeding the poor and empathy. Unless one goes thorough an experience of hunger one cannot feel what it?s like for those who suffer starvation for whatever reason. For further details see
My detailed answer, the last post on Re Ramadan
? Reply #72 on September 12, 2008, 060839 PM ?
this link http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=15421.60

peace

unknownuser

Peace truthseeker11,

"To bear witness" is "to provide..........", not "to have...........".
In 2185, as explained by samia already in one of the earlier posts, "shahida" does not mean "to bear witness" but "to witness". We can only witness something using our own senses, and to witness something is to witness it firsthand. To witness is not to rely on a secondhand information or a calendar. That is called "belief" or "trust". How can you witness an arbitrarily assigned man-made period of time known as a "month" using your senses ?
One cannot provide without having (knowledge, etc???..).
We witness a ?month? by having knowledge of it (i.e. the month of fasting).

Not always using physical senses thus even the blind can witness.

318 God witnessed that He, L? il?ha illa Huwa (there is no God except He), and the angels and those of the knowledge (also give witness)...

353 Our Lord, we believed with what You descended, and we followed the messenger, so write us with the witnessing/testifying (to the truth).

Now your turn -- what are 4 sacred full moons?

farida

Peace farida,

You still have not answered my question. How can a blind man witness a "shahr" using ears and skin ?

You say that

How can a blind man witness a "shahr" using his ears and skin ?
EVERYONE is present during a "shahr". "Those among you who witness" obviously cannot mean "everyone". If everyone present is meant, the phrase would be "when the shahr is witnessed".

Salaam

I am glad that you are asking these questions I was expecting the same from Ayman, but he did not address this.
Just as a blind person is well aware of days months and years and time and are capable of performing most demanding task like Mr Blunket (ex home minister of Uk.) They witness all events by more gifted senses then the seeing posses. Just because Ayman wants to impose his theory he is excluding the blind.. I have given you my reason which I paste again,
This is what you said earlier
As is apparent from the above referenced verses, the skin will bear witness on the Last Day and not this life. The issue of fasting is in the here and now, and not in the hereafter. My question is that how can ears and skin witness a "shahr" ? Does an angel blow a trumpet during "shahr" or does the temperature suddenly jump many degrees ?

What is wrong with my this reply as the blind will be answerable to GOd ? s we learn from verses 4120, 21, 22, it is confirmed that the skin is capable of witnessing and will testify.
One can witness a month simply by being present in that month, as the skin is in touch with the atoms/molecules , water vapor mixture of gases, temperature etc., present at such a time. In this world one?s finger prints and DNA can also testify against a person, but just imagine a blind one saying to God, on the Day of Judgement, ?I did not witness the month of Ramadan?. His skin will then speak out against him

However, if you agree with Aymans theroy of excluding the blind, then please give me one valid reason why a person without sight should be excluded ? ???

You say that

The war alluded to in 981 could have still been during heat if it was in June, just before "shahru ramadhan".

You say that

Is that a fact ?

I asked bilal something and I will ask you the same. "HAATOO BURHAANAKUM", bring forth your proof if you are truthful!

Please prove that ALL historical wars ALWAYS lasted more than a month and back it up with undisputable evidence. Some wars in history have been decisively fought and won within a few days. Conversely, ALL wars do not ALWAYS end in 8 months; some can last years.
The following gives a list of important short wars

http//listverse.com/politics/top-10-shortest-wars/

Any of those could have been started in May and would have ended before July, and still be "during the heat" if fought in a desert in the Northern Hemisphere

Please prove from The Quran that the war mentioned in 981 lasted more than a month
.

I paste here 981 for you again Those who have remained are happy with their position of lagging behind God's messenger, and they disliked striving with their wealth and lives in the cause of God; and they say "Do not mobilize in the heat." Say "The fire of Hell is far hotter," if they could only understand.
What do you understand from "Do not mobilize in the heat."
Does that mean war is ending or due to start? Seeing that there were no tanks or aeroplanes and other advanced equipment; would the prophet mobilize for a quick war before the sacred months; if so well we are doomed then.
But if you think that it could be possible that the prophet would prepare and start a war in May and end in July and start fasting by August with an exhusted army then, by all means, its your understanding but you have no proof of this from the Qur'an.

So according to your logic, the believers should never start a war thinking "what if it lasts long enough to encroach on the following restricted shahoor".

Absolutely! This is called pre-planning and, even in this day and age when wars are quick, its planned way before take for example Desert Storm and the ongoing war in Iraq, although it was criticised for lack of foresight.

I hope I have answered your questions. if I left any, please do ask again as I sometime tend to overlook.

peace
PS I hope you are aware that the Americans carefully planned two gulf wars so that the month of Hajj would have passed, as that is when they receive their revenues from the Saudi tourist business. -X

progod

Truthseeker,

In the case of the eyes that just may be so, whether the eyes turn red when they burn is a very, very, very minor point. Nothing in this world is 100 percent (atleast rarely), but again THAT IS NOT THE POINT. Rubbing of the thighs is another example, and the MAIN meaning is the sensation of significant heat. That is the root meaning of the word, ask Ayman to give you the root definition of the word so you are not confused. And for the root of the word to be 'to be signficantly hot/to feel signficant heat' and then to imply ath redness is apart of the meaning because there are two references to the burning sensation of bodily parts that when irritated, rubbed or inflamed MAY have redness acompanying that burning sensation is conjecture and falsehood beyond measure. Again look up the definition that those dictionaries give and then YOU be honet with yourself and ask if the word means to turn reddish or just has to do with being or feeling significantly hot.

As it concerns the shahr being 30 days in the context of the Quran, how about I put it to you like this

IN EVERY CONTEXT OF THE QURAN WHERE A FAST CANNOT BE DONE IT IS SUBSTITUTED WITH FEEDING A PERSON PER DAILY FAST MISSED. THE QURANIC EQUATION IS IF FASTING IS TOO DIFICULT FOR YOU, YOU FEED A PERSON PER DAY OF FASTING MISSED.

So if the Quran is saying that I can substitue 2 months of fasting by feeding 60 people, the conclusion is crystal clear and there is no amount of clouding that you can do that will make this unclear. It is a very simple and clear deduction. I'm sorry you are missing it.

Godbless,
Anwar

progod

Ayman,

The dictionary doesn't say that "strawberries with the logical and normal connotation that these strawberries, and everything else that has strawberries involved, is red". Yet somehow, English-speaking people know that when people mention "strawberry moon" they talk about the moon around the summer solstice because that is when strawberries are harvested and because it is RED. Similarly, ancient Arabs undoubtedly knew that when people mention "scorching full-moon" they talk about the full-moon after the summer solstice because that is when the weather is hot and it is RED.

Now I am not too familiar with strawberry harvesting so I didn't know about the strawberry moon, and I'm a native, American English speaker. But you are speaking of a tradition that has been recorded. I'm sure you looked it up and it is easy to reference in some farmer's almanac. We can all get a source for this. But where is your source that the ancient Arabs referred to the solstice moon in this way? Or is this your conjecture that you are trying to impose on the Arabs of the past without any proof besides trying to imaginatively attatch redness to the meaning of ramada because redness usually accompanies the burning in somene's eyes (reffered to using ramada) or the burning after rubbing one's thighs together (also referred to using the verb ramada) when burning is the real meaning?

Godbless,
Anwar

Ahmad_Bilal

One cannot provide without having (knowledge, etc???..).
We witness a ?month? by having knowledge of it (i.e. the month of fasting).

Not always using physical senses thus even the blind can witness.

318 God witnessed that He, L? il?ha illa Huwa (there is no God except He), and the angels and those of the knowledge (also give witness)...

Peace,

This is not the same concept at all. In this declaration, The God is BEARING WITNESS to a concept or idea. That's why the this testimony would read

I bear witness THAT there is no god but the god.

We obviously can't visually see The God, so we can't witness Him, but we can witness His creation and His glory and supremacy, and this is what be acknowledge. Similarly, we can't physically "witness"/see a month. In most cases, you can't even "bear witness" to a month without the use of a man-made calendar... That's why the ancient Arabs "witnessed" their months based on the sighting of the moon... If this scripture simply meant those who are "present" during the month, you have to ask "PRESENT WHERE?" It wouldn't make sense to view it as all living people, since this would clearly apply to everyone, and that would make the concept of witnessing "shahru ramadhan" completely redundant...

Peace,

Ahmad

farida

Peace,

This is not the same concept at all. In this declaration, The God is BEARING WITNESS to a concept or idea. That's why the this testimony would read

I bear witness THAT there is no god but the god.

We obviously can't visually see The God, so we can't witness Him, but we can witness His creation and His glory and supremacy, and this is what be acknowledge. Similarly, we can't physically "witness"/see a month. In most cases, you can't even "bear witness" to a month without the use of a man-made calendar... If this scripture simply meant those who are "present" during the month, you have to ask "PRESENT WHERE?" It wouldn't make sense to view it as all living people, since this would clearly apply to everyone, and that would make the concept of witnessing "shahru ramadhan" completely redundant...

Peace,

Ahmad

Salaam.

Really!! I do remember ex UK Home Minister David Blunket using his finger to do the reading which must have included finding out day and date of the documents and that is how he was running UK home affairs beside using his ears and his mouth of course. By the way he is only one example of many talented high profile blind persons.

That's why the ancient Arabs "witnessed" their months based on the sighting of the moon...

Proof? And those who did not sight the moon were excluded from giving witness involving the month/date ???
peace

Ahmad_Bilal

Finger prints, DNA sample from your skin can bear witness and are used in this life Now!
This is what I said beforeMy concluding post said, summed up
I have strong proofs from the Qur?an to believe that;
?Amongst those who witnessed? the month of Ramadan include all those who are present in this month and can perceive with their ears their eyes and their skins.

Peace,

This is a completely improper view and misinterpretation of this scripture. The scripture says

"They will say to their skins 'Why did you bear witness against us?' They will reply, 'The God made us speak up. He is the one who causes everything to speak. He is the One who created you the first time, and now you have been returned to Him.'" (4121)

This scripture is clearly speaking of our "skins" testifying to wrongdoing, and this speech is caused by The God. Our skins don't speak to us and tell us when "shahru ramadhan" occurs... How can your "skin" witness a month?

Peace,

Ahmad

Ahmad_Bilal

Salaam.

Really!! I do remember ex UK Home Minister David Blunket using his finger to do the reading which must have included finding out day and date of the documents and that is how he was running UK home affairs beside using his ears and his mouth of course. By the way he is only one example do many talented high profile blind persons.
peace

Peace,

Okay... D The ancient Arabs identified the start of their months by the sighting of the moon, mostly the new crescent. So, can this blind man see the new crescent moon when it appears in the sky? If so, he's very talented...

Peace,

Ahmad

farida

Peace,

Okay... D The ancient Arabs identified the start of their months by the sighting of the moon, mostly the new crescent. So, can this blind man see the new crescent moon when it appears in the sky? If so, he's very talented...

Peace,

Ahmad

There is no requirement for a blind person or anyone else, to physically witness the new crescent, as long as we know its been sighted even via satellite.

This scripture is clearly speaking of our "skins" testifying to wrongdoing, and this speech is caused by The God. Our skins don't speak to us and tell us when "shahru ramadhan" occurs... How can your "skin" witness a month?

Where did I suggest that our skin speak in this world, you have missed out on my post ,please read it again, a blind person will be answerable to God for not fasting, not to me or you and this it what I wrote
but just imagine a blind one saying to God, on the Day of Judgement, ?I did not witness the month of Ramadan?. His skin will then speak out against him
peace

siki

Salaam Siki
You are talking about the benefits of fasting- the benefits are huge, and thought provoking;
Here we should consider two aspects
a. The benefits of fasting - you can discover this as you pay attention and do research on this.

b. The purpose of fasting - We have been given the purpose of fasting from God 2183 O you who believe, fasting is decreed for you, as it was decreed for those before you, that you may attain salvation.
The purpose of fasting is linked to feeding the poor and empathy. Unless one goes thorough an experience of hunger one cannot feel what it?s like for those who suffer starvation for whatever reason. For further details see
My detailed answer, the last post on Re Ramadan
? Reply #72 on September 12, 2008, 060839 PM ?
this link http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=15421.60

peace

Farida,

Offcourse , the fasting was decreed for believers due to multiple reasons, and only His infinite wisdom encompasses the true benifits for humans, the reason you mention, could be definnitely a part of it, but even that can not be expeirenced in its true spirit , in a comfortable winter day environment.

Ayman's point regarding the blind being exempted from fasting is definitely a wrong argument.

peace

siki

unknownuser

This is not the same concept at all. In this declaration, The God is BEARING WITNESS to a concept or idea. That's why the this testimony would read

I bear witness THAT there is no god but the god.

We obviously can't visually see The God, so we can't witness Him, but we can witness His creation and His glory and supremacy, and this is what be acknowledge. Similarly, we can't physically "witness"/see a month. In most cases, you can't even "bear witness" to a month without the use of a man-made calendar... That's why the ancient Arabs "witnessed" their months based on the sighting of the moon... If this scripture simply meant those who are "present" during the month, you have to ask "PRESENT WHERE?" It wouldn't make sense to view it as all living people, since this would clearly apply to everyone, and that would make the concept of witnessing "shahru ramadhan" completely redundant...

Peace,

Ahmad

Peace,

The concept/idea of a month
n.

A unit of time corresponding approximately to one cycle of the moon's phases,

I am here and bear witness it?s the month of Ramadan based on the concept/idea of month beginning at waxing crescent of the moon.

Not all living; only those who ?witness? or acknowledge it is the month to fast same as L? il?ha illa Huwa (there is no God except He). It?s customary to answer questions posted as well...

2217 They ask you concerning fighting in the Sacred full moons

What are sacred full moons?

2226 Those who take an oath not to have sexual relation with their wives must wait four full moons

Wait implies time ? what is waiting 4 full moons?

92 So travel in the earth, four full moons?

What if he is traveling north to south hemisphere, which full moons to use?

belH

Please prove from The Quran that the war mentioned in 981 was immediately after the restricted shahoor.

The above are enough to collapse your argument

Peace all;
Sorry I'm posting this without reading your replies (I was too busy today)

Hello Mr. TruthSeeker

As we all know, the prophet was ordered to fight when being attacked, and was ordered to not start a war. But when Chapter 9 was revealed, things changed for a period of time. In Chapter 9, from verse 1 to 5, the prophet understood that he has to prepare for a war in which he would be in the offensive side. He was ordered to free the Secret Mosque from the disbelievers. We know that the war had to start after the 4 restricted month (per 9-1 to 5), and we know that it took place in summer time (per 9-81).
In 9-81, it was clear that the hypocrites were advising the prophet to not start the war in Summer time; hence, the prophet was on the offensive side and was in control of when the war should start; hence, the only war that the prophet was on the offensive side was the war of Chapter 9. !
If you happened to know another war where the prophet was in control of when it should start (offensive side), please let me know.

Also, please let me know why you are so stressed about Ayman Theory?
Are you Ayman himself? confused

belH

Salaam belal
It's just not the style of the qur'aan which usually tells us what the punishment was, not how long it lasted.

Peace Samia;
I hope we can agree on this; You said that Sinian is Drought; let me show you that it can't be drought

So We sent on them the flood, the locusts, the lice, the frogs, and the bloodmanifest signs, yet they remained arrogant, and they were of those people who were Mujrim?n(7-133)

It is a Flood. and Flood is "Tofaan" and not Sinian.

In verses 15-26,28, it is clear that "hama' '" is black clay...from which is derived the noun adam dust, crust of the earth; also a black/dark person.

Let me ask a Question; what is the common thing in humans' bodies, regardless of their skin color?
Is it the Red Blood; is it the Red Cell Tissue; is it all their Red Organs? !
even animals and birds, all are Red from inside.
Thus, the "Clay" would be Red Clay and not Black Clay; hence, Hama is refering to Red and not Black.
Hope we can agree on this one also )
Peace

Samia

Peace Samia;
I hope we can agree on this; You said that Sinian is Drought; let me show you that it can't be drought

So We sent on them the flood, the locusts, the lice, the frogs, and the bloodmanifest signs, yet they remained arrogant, and they were of those people who were Mujrim?n(7-133).

It is a Flood. and Flood is "Tofaan" and not Sinian.

If you start with the verse I quoted (7130) and continued, to this verse, you will find that it has to be drought, and that it is definitely not (years)
130
And We punished the people of the Pharoh with drought and shortness in fruit that they might remember
131
But when good comes to them, they say (we deserve this) and if evil afflicts them, they ascribe the bad omen to Moses and those with him. Verily, their bad omen is fom/by/with God but most do not know.
132
And they said whatever sign you bring to charm us/work your sorcery on us, we shall never believe you
133 So, we sent on them the flood, the locust, the lice, the frogs and the blood Manifest signs

Let me ask a Question; what is the common thing in humans' bodies, regardless of their skin color?
Is it the Red Blood; is it the Red Cell Tissue; is it all their Red Organs? !
even animals and birds, all are Red from inside.
Thus, the "Clay" would be Red Clay and not Black Clay; hence, Hama is refering to Red and not Black.
Hope we can agree on this one also

Does this mean red organs are created from red clay, and white organs, e;g bones, are created from white clay? Is this the logic you want me to agree with you on? Sounds like a kindergarten class.

Umm_Tariq

Peace Nun de plume,

Peace Umm Tariq,

654 gives the maximum (3 months) which includes the minimum case.

2228 And the divorced wait with themselves 3 menstrual cycles

3 menstrual cycles can vary between 2 - 3 months.

654?so their term/count (is) three months

3 months is the maximum for 3 menstrual cycles. No contradiction.

Again I thank you for taking the time to share your perspective in a calm, respectful manner. I hope you find me the same. So you want to look at that in 654, the god is giving us the maximum case so that these two verses don't have to agree directly? I can't say it's wrong of you to look at it that way but I have to disagree. Since the god informs us that His book is consistent I like to go with what is consistent. I see it as consistent that in the minimum cases, using either the start of a menstrual cycle (something to be seen) and sighting full moons, they equal. Both are used as markers to start a count. Like I said earlier, maybe the key phrase in verse 654 is 'if you doubt'. Is this implying that the two cases are using the same time frames? Is this implying that when a woman doesn't have a menstrual cycle as a marker, she is to use counting by the 'full moons', as markers instead, which like I showed, in the minimum, produce the same results? Which leads back to my initial question, since you are saying that if using 'month' in 654 has produced the maximum of the menstrual count but certainly for a woman with no cycle she then is bound by this maximum, why the difference? Why should a woman with no cycle automatically wait more than a woman who does? It's just a question that comes to my mind and that's what gives weight to me accepting using 'full moon' for shahr which is accepted in arabic usage.

The verse says wait 4 months and 10 days.

If they go outside each night/day to see 4 full moons they can be 28 days too early.

That is disobedience to a commandment of God.

Too many inconsistencies with full moons -- what are 4 sacred full moons?

936 That the months' number/count at God (are) twelve in God's scripture, (on) the day He created the skies/space and the earth/Planet Earth, from it four (are) sacred...

Again, this is our difference and I already pointed that out. Like you said, "can be 28 days too early", in all minimum counts, the difference between understanding 'shahr' to be 'full moon' or 'month' produces this difference in time. The arabic text says what it says, "arba'a ashhur wa ashran", it's the two viewpoints that don't agree so I can't say it's disobedience. If you say 'month' meaning however many days you see it as then your count would be 4 months and 10 days. If I say 'full moon' using it as a marker just like a menstrual cycle, then I am still counting 4 full moons then and 10 days, so no disobedience, but the total time in the minimum would differ between me and you. Remember, this is what we are trying to ascertain, which is most correct keeping the consistency of the text and not outright violating anything, 'full moon' or 'month'.

The four sacred full moons is the god telling us that we count 4 full moons consecutively in a certain time period, which is restricted/ forbidden, the main question then is when does that count begin? As of today, I haven't gotten to look at this issue myself (I've noticed the debate going on about it) to see if I agree that the start of this count is shahr ramadan or not so I have no comment on that yet.

2226 Those who take an oath not to have sexual relation with their wives must wait four full moons

Wait implies time ? what is waiting 4 full moons?

92 So travel in the earth, four full moons?

I would tell you that the full moons are the markers and the wait is what is in between. This is why I brought up the issue of the menstrual cycle verse. The actual cycle of blood lasts on average between 3-7 or 10 days, I've read this before somewhere, so if your issue is that a full moon is technically only 1 night then how can one wait? It's a 'marker', would a woman only be waiting the time she sees blood, 3-7 days, and then she's not waiting, she's starting and stopping each time? That makes no sense. So that's why I see the consistency in the god using 'full moon' as a marker to start a count just like a menstrual cycle is a marker to start a count. I don't see any inconsistencies with this do you still? We can agree to disagree for the moment as well.

An example for the 4 sacred full moons is this, IF the starting full moon is shahr ramadan, then when this is seen that's full moon no.1, the next, full moon no.2, the next, full moon no.3, and the last is full moon no.4 and that whole time period of restriction is finished. Since you are looking at 'shahr' as 'month' you would count this as 3 months only and say that it should be 4 months but as you can see, it all depends on what 'shahr' means.

I also think it's important to remember that the god's revelations is for all times and peoples. If at a certain time before our present reality some people also had their own concept of 'month' being an already fixed number of days less than 28 or 30 days, let's say 20 days then what? The difference between 'full moon' counts and 'month' would be even greater.

I hope this clarifies more the position I am taking and that I've answered your questions.

Umm Tariq

Ahmad_Bilal

Peace Farida,

There is no requirement for a blind person or anyone else, to physically witness the new crescent, as long as we know its been sighted even via satellite.

Back during the time when the reading was sent down and composed, the Arabs couldn't sight the moon "via satellite". So, it would be illogical to assume that's what The God was referring to. If His command was for those to abstain who witness/sight the full-moon of blazing heat, then the command would only apply to those who witness it themselves... However, it doesn't say that others cannot abstain as well. In reality, we can abstain/fast whatever days we wish - the reading doesn't place a limit on this. It just tells us which times are obligatory or encouraged...

A blind person will be answerable to God for not fasting, not to me or you and this it what I wrote
but just imagine a blind one saying to God, on the Day of Judgement, I did not witness the month of Ramadan. His skin will then speak out against him

Are you sure that the skin of a blind man will speak out against him for not sighting the moon? confused Okay, if you truly want to believe that a blind person can sight the moon himself without any help, then you are free to believe so - your opinion is your own opinion. However, I don't think it's possible for a blind person to physically "sight" the moon, whether full-moon or new crescent moon, not without the help of God Himself. Therefore, he would be unable to sight the "shahru ramadhan" and would be exempt from the fasting, as the scripture confirms. The fact that the scripture says "those of you who witness/sight the 'shahru ramadhan'" shows plainly that there will be some who can not sight/witness this time period.

Peace,

Ahmad

Umm_Tariq

Peace Farida,

"If you are honestly trying to learn, then how come you are ignoring excellent points raised by
progod Anwar, I commend his patience in this thread, he has honestly and unbiasly covered the linguistic approach to many words; that makes no sense to you?
Nun de plume, excellent observation with regards to the summer solstice full moon an impressive calculation,
Belalhammad summed up Put yourself in the Prophet postion, would you prepare for a war four weeks before the 4 restricted month?
Verse 9-81 is after the 4 restricted Months, when the prophet had 8 month to go for a very important and hard war.
9-81 is the verse that collapsed the foundation of Ayman's theory, as you said in regard of Progod.
You have learned nothing from these posts Huh?"

I hope your beginning statement isn't an assumption that I am not honestly trying to learn. All you had to say was "how come you are ignoring excellent points" or "why are you". First of all, it is your opinion whether someone's words are excellent are not, that's respected but if in what you can tell from my posts that you THINK or SUSPECT that I am ignoring some posts or not learning anything from any particular ones then this is a false assumption on your part. How would you be able to tell either way since you do not encompass the unseen in knowledge? Either, I missed a post or if I did read it but disagreed then that's disagreeing, not ignoring, like I said, how would you know? If I've learned something beneficial then that is for me anyway. I am glad to be discussing the points I am with Nun directly, that's beneficial for me. Also, I may have a question that comes up after many threads have been posted on it that I may have missed or sometimes it's hard to follow, not all posts are so clear either or a question needs to be asked a different way, you do acknowledge that don't you?

"Maybe you missed this post of mine too"

I did.

"Maybe you missed this post too which btw. is backed by "THE TRUTH is in the god's book"
Re Hot/"ramadan" Answer
? Reply #258 on September 09, 2008, 013650 PM ?

Therefore I don't need to remind that for all answers here (unless one's personal opinion) we need to give evidence from the Quran and on the subject of witnessing Ramadan, please correct me if I am wrong, the verses below confirm that it?s not only eyes and ears that bear witness, but even one?s skin bears witness.

4120 At length, when they reach the (Fire), their hearing, their sight, and their SKINs will bear witness against them, as to (all) their deeds.

4121 They will say to their SKINs "Why bear ye witness against us?" They will say "(Allah) hath given us speech,- (He) Who giveth speech to everything He created you for the first time, and unto Him were ye to return.

4122 "Ye did not seek to hide yourselves, lest your hearing, your sight, and your SKINs should bear witness against you! But ye did think that Allah knew not many of the things that ye used to do! "

These verses that you have POSTED are THE TRUTH in the god's book (the arabic of them only) but maybe not how you want to use them or interpret them. Previously, Samia had a post about her looking into how the book uses the verb 'shaheda', I also checked out those verses and I agree that in 2184 it means witnessing as in seeing. Here's why In these verses that you post you notice the word 'bear' mentioned as well as the key words "against" something. In the arabic it's respectively "shaheda 'alaihim", "shahadtum 'alainaa" and "shahednaa 'alaakum", the verb is not standing alone in these cases. In 6130, 7172, 415, 737 this verb is also used the same way with the corresponding preposition 'alaa' to mean against something. In verses like 318, 386 it uses the verb with 'anna' meaning 'that' respectively "the god bears witness that there is no god except Him..." and "...and they bore witness that the messenger is the truth...". We understand in which way bearing witness is being used here. Now in verses 1226, 1281 and 2749 like in 2185 we have the verb without 'alaa' or 'anna'.

1226 ...and a witness witnessed from her family "if his shirt was torn from the front then she was truthful and he is from the liars.

1281 Return to your father and then say "O our father verily your son stole and we didn't witness except with what we knew and we were not for the unseen protectors/ guarders."

2749 ...we didn't witness the destruction of his family and verily we are truthful ones.

This is how I understand arranging similar verses should be done. If I want to look at the word 'shaheda' more closely I will look at all of the verses it's used in. Yes, our skins will be made to bear witness/ testify against some on the day of judgement but I don't see how that subject matter is related to witness shahr ramadan. I am looking at how the verb is used so that I can properly ascertain it's usage in 2185 and this verse doesn't fit since the verb is used differently. In these last verses, how would you understand 'witness'? I clearly see the relation of witnessing something physically. In the first it's about witnessing where a short is torn, next they didn't witness meaning see the brother steal so they can't comment on it and then there's a mention of the unseen as well, and third is clearly physical, witnessing the destruction of his family, seeing it and who did it. But that's me. So noticing that these verses also don't use the previous prepositions as well as in 2185, and remembering consistency in the god's words and their usage, I understand in 2185 to be in regards to seeing the full moon, a clear marker like a woman's menstruation.

If you understand shahr' to mean 'month' then of course we can't witness it in the seeing type of way so maybe that's why you brought those verses but it's the usage of the verb that's the problem, the verb is not used in these verses the same way and I would wonder how that can be ignored? You mention the issue of the blind person. I personally do not have a concrete conclusion on that point as of yet but I would like to add these points if your contention is how would a blind person 'see' the full moon, they can't, so the conclusion is that they are exempted some how and you have a problem with that, well how do they witness a 'month' which is an abstraction? Wouldn't a blind person have to rely on someone telling them that the month is now here start fasting because from what I can tell, correct me if I am wrong, you still agree that something, the new moon, has be seen to know that the month has started. If not, a blind person, whether it's full moon or month, has to rely on others to tell them. Just my observation.

Also if we take witness as you do in this case, then technically, NOBODY knows whether they will 'witness' the whole month in advance i.e. death. Death is the opposite of the type of witnessing that you want to use. This is what really made this 'month' issue not make sense to me. If the month still has the 'new moon' as a marker it has begun, I may be present (i.e. alive) to witness that but that's still only one day, what if I die the next day then technically I didn't witness the 'month' the time period which this word implies because I died but I only witnessed the starting day. How do you reconcile that? If a person dies thereafter, then witnessing the beginning of this 'month', the first night of the new moon, isn't any different from witnessing the 'full moon' but the issue of dying doesn't come up. Or do you have some other way of knowing for sure the beginning of this 'month'?

"I repeat what I wrote earlier
I am truly in search of the truth about the sacred months and that's what we need to work out and the reason I'm looking for the best calculation is this "

Same here, that's what I will be looking into next. However, firstly, I saw that I have to sought out whether when the god uses the word 'shahr' does He mean full moon or month.

Note In one of the dictionaries I possess, arabic/ english, Al Mawrid by Dr. Rohi Baalbaki, he lists for the first definition of shadeda to witness, see (personally or for oneself) and secondly, to attend, be present at

This is not as important for me however as it was to arrange the verses and see how the god uses the verb but it shows that there is nothing wrong with such a usage and I see that the verb by itself takes this first meaning.

Umm Tariq

unknownuser

Peace Umm Tariq,

So you want to look at that in 654, the god is giving us the maximum case so that these two verses don't have to agree directly?

How do they not agree?

The phrase ?shahr? is NOT in 2228.

Shahr = time
Menstrual cycle = event

2228 And the divorced wait with themselves three menstrual cycles

654 And those who became infertile from the menstruation from your women, if you became doubtful/suspicious, so their term/count (is) three months, and those who did not menstruate, and (those) of the pregnant, their term/time (is) that they give birth?

Like I said earlier, maybe the key phrase in verse 654 is 'if you doubt'. Is this implying that the two cases are using the same time frames?

Why should a woman with no cycle automatically wait more than a woman who does?

They wait the maximum amount of any 3 menstrual cycles to make sure!

How much clearer can it get??

Women who menstruate wait three menstrual cycles.
Women who do not or you are unsure wait 3 months.
Women who are pregnant wait until they give birth.

An example for the 4 sacred full moons is this, IF the starting full moon is shahr ramadan, then when this is seen that's full moon no.1, the next, full moon no.2, the next, full moon no.3, and the last is full moon no.4 and that whole time period of restriction is finished.

4 sacred full moons means four of these are sacred ? idolization?

http//s4.tinypic.com/mhg2eo.jpg

4 full moons if taken consecutively equals 3 lunar months!

Full moon 1 ? start?
Full moon 2 ? 1 month
Full moon 3 ? 2 months
Full moon 4 ? 3 months

Total time = 3 months!
12 full moons = 11 months!

Since you are looking at 'shahr' as 'month' you would count this as 3 months only

???

4 months is exactly 4 months!

12 months is exactly 12 months!

I hope this clarifies more the position I am taking and that I've answered your questions.

No you have not.

92 So travel in the earth, four full moons?

First, telling that to someone will sound absurd in any language.

Its August 20th how does one interpret four full moons ? that they have until December 13?

Full Moon Dates 2008
August 16 418 P.M.
September 15 415 A.M.
October 14 304 P.M.
November 13 1219 A.M.
December 12 1038 A.M.

What if traveling north to south hemisphere, which full moons?

Conclusion shahr to mean full moon is illogical and nonsensical!

Peace

ayman

Peace Nun,

How do they not agree?
The phrase ?shahr? is NOT in 2228.
Shahr = time
Menstrual cycle = event

Nun, I hope that you can see that you keep repeating fallacious circular arguments. You are trying to prove that "shahr" means "month" starting from the premise that "shahr" means month. This is circular. On the other hand, the way the god uses menstruations and "shahr" in the same EXACT way indicates independently that they are both EVENTS.

2228 And the divorced wait with themselves three menstrual cycles
654 And those who became infertile from the menstruation from your women, if you became doubtful/suspicious, so their term/count (is) three months, and those who did not menstruate, and (those) of the pregnant, their term/time (is) that they give birth?
They wait the maximum amount of any 3 menstrual cycles to make sure!
How much clearer can it get??

Ask this to yourself.

(1) Women who menstruate wait three menstrual cycles.
(2) Women who do not or you are unsure wait 3 months.
(3) Women who are pregnant wait until they give birth.

(1) and (3) are events and this is indisputable. By assuming that "shahr" is "month' (whatever that means), you make (2) the only odd one out. Moreover, now (2) is dependent on human culture. Your "month" is whatever month people made up 28, 29, 30, 31, 20 days or whatever.

4 sacred full moons means four of these are sacred ? idolization?

What is this "sacred" nonsense? We are told that the meat of the pig is "haram". Does this mean that the meat of the pig is "sacred" or "restricted"? You really need to think before screaming "idolization".

On the other hand, if you insist on falsely taking "haram" to mean "sacred", why didn't you consider your arbitrary "sacred months" idolization? Who is this February or Shaaban or whatever that you want to make "sacred"?

4 full moons if taken consecutively equals 3 lunar months!
Full moon 1 ? start?
Full moon 2 ? 1 month
Full moon 3 ? 2 months
Full moon 4 ? 3 months
Total time = 3 months!
12 full moons = 11 months!
???
4 months is exactly 4 months!
12 months is exactly 12 months!

Yet somehow we can count exactly 12 full-moons in a solar year and maintain the seasons in sync with the moon cycle (936), while we can't count 12 months in any year. Do you think it is magic?

No you have not.
92 So travel in the earth, four full moons?
First, telling that to someone will sound absurd in any language.

Tell this to the god, he revealed it. Do you think you know better than the god? According to you he should have told them to travel in Ragab, Shaaban, Ramadan, Shawwal (since this is what "months" means to you) while he would have told Christians to travel in February, March, April and May (this is what "months" means to them)? Now this is absurd. By thinking that you know better than the god, you are making the god's commands culture dependent and based 100% on arbitrary manmade timeframes.

Its August 20th how does one interpret four full moons ? that they have until December 13?
Full Moon Dates 2008
August 16 418 P.M.
September 15 415 A.M.
October 14 304 P.M.
November 13 1219 A.M.
December 12 1038 A.M.
What if traveling north to south hemisphere, which full moons?
Conclusion shahr to mean full moon is illogical and nonsensical!

Last I checked, a full-moon in the northern hemisphere is also a full-moon in the southern hemisphere. What is really illogical and nonsensical is that you seem to be implying that a full-moon in the northern hemisphere is seen as a crescent or whatever in the southern hemisphere!

Peace,

Ayman