Hot/"ramadan" Answer

truthseeker11

progod,

Truthseeker,

In the case of the eyes that just may be so, whether the eyes turn red when they burn is a very, very, very minor point. Nothing in this world is 100 percent (atleast rarely), but again THAT IS NOT THE POINT. Rubbing of the thighs is another example, and the MAIN meaning is the sensation of significant heat. That is the root meaning of the word, ask Ayman to give you the root definition of the word so you are not confused. And for the root of the word to be 'to be signficantly hot/to feel signficant heat' and then to imply ath redness is apart of the meaning because there are two references to the burning sensation of bodily parts that when irritated, rubbed or inflamed MAY have redness acompanying that burning sensation is conjecture and falsehood beyond measure. Again look up the definition that those dictionaries give and then YOU be honet with yourself and ask if the word means to turn reddish or just has to do with being or feeling significantly hot.

As it concerns the shahr being 30 days in the context of the Quran, how about I put it to you like this

IN EVERY CONTEXT OF THE QURAN WHERE A FAST CANNOT BE DONE IT IS SUBSTITUTED WITH FEEDING A PERSON PER DAILY FAST MISSED. THE QURANIC EQUATION IS IF FASTING IS TOO DIFICULT FOR YOU, YOU FEED A PERSON PER DAY OF FASTING MISSED.

So if the Quran is saying that I can substitue 2 months of fasting by feeding 60 people, the conclusion is crystal clear and there is no amount of clouding that you can do that will make this unclear. It is a very simple and clear deduction. I'm sorry you are missing it.

Godbless,
Anwar

Rubbing of thighs produces the same acute inflammatory reaction, and redness is ALWAYS a part of that if the rubbing is strong enough to produce burning sensation. Significant heat is IMPOSSIBLE without the accompanying redness due to increased blood flow.
Thank you for switching to "substitution" for feeding the people and fasting which is the right word instead of "expiation" in the context of 583-4 and 589 and not misleading people anymore. Substitution works both ways and the things which are alternative substitutes are EQUIVALENT, no matter what the order. 589 talks about substituting fasting 3 days for feeding 10 people which gives a ratio of 13.33 using the same "substitution" or "equivalence" logic and thus your deduction that one day of fasting is always equivalent to feeding one person according to The Quran is a false statement.

Peace

truthseeker11

Hello belal,

Peace all;
Sorry I'm posting this without reading your replies (I was too busy today)

Hello Mr. TruthSeeker

As we all know, the prophet was ordered to fight when being attacked, and was ordered to not start a war. But when Chapter 9 was revealed, things changed for a period of time. In Chapter 9, from verse 1 to 5, the prophet understood that he has to prepare for a war in which he would be in the offensive side. He was ordered to free the Secret Mosque from the disbelievers. We know that the war had to start after the 4 restricted month (per 9-1 to 5), and we know that it took place in summer time (per 9-81).
In 9-81, it was clear that the hypocrites were advising the prophet to not start the war in Summer time; hence, the prophet was on the offensive side and was in control of when the war should start; hence, the only war that the prophet was on the offensive side was the war of Chapter 9. !
If you happened to know another war where the prophet was in control of when it should start (offensive side), please let me know.

Also, please let me know why you are so stressed about Ayman Theory?
Are you Ayman himself? confused

I am not stressed about ayman; you are the one making that an issue. I am trying to address YOUR theory to see if there is any truth to it. Ayman or anyone else are perfectly capable of answering for themselves and I have nothing to do with them. So please get rid of this preoccupation and obsession with ayman. I hope he is not in your dreams too!
You are addressing me as Mr. Why are you assuming I am a male? Is it male chauvinism? Or is it conjecture?

6116 And if you obey the majority of those on Earth they will lead you away from God?s path; that is because they follow conjecture, and that is because they only guess.

When the enemies break their treaty with the believers it is an act of aggression by the enemies and is an attack on the believers. So the war in the first part of chapter 9 is not an aggressive war but a defensive war by the believers. This is proven from The Quran itself

913 Would you not fight a people who broke their oaths and intended to expel the messenger, especially while they were the ones who attacked you first? Do you fear them? It is God who is more worthy to be feared if you are believers.

Just because there is a war mentioned in 981 does not mean it is the same war that is being ordered in the first part of chapter 9. Please give the Quranic proof that they are the same wars.

I would request you to focus on the discussion instead of making personal remarks peace

farida

Peace Farida,
I hope your beginning statement isn't an assumption that I am not honestly trying to learn. All you had to say was "how come you are ignoring excellent points" or "why are you". First of all, it is your opinion whether someone's words are excellent are not, that's respected but if in what you can tell from my posts that you THINK or SUSPECT that I am ignoring some posts or not learning anything from any particular ones then this is a false assumption on your part. How would you be able to tell either way since you do not encompass the unseen in knowledge? Either, I missed a post or if I did read it but disagreed then that's disagreeing, not ignoring, like I said, how would you know? If I've learned something beneficial then that is for me anyway. I am glad to be discussing the points I am with Nun directly, that's beneficial for me. Also, I may have a question that comes up after many threads have been posted on it that I may have missed or sometimes it's hard to follow, not all posts are so clear either or a question needs to be asked a different way, you do acknowledge that don't you?

Peace Umm Tariq
Please why are you speculating about what I "THINK or SUSPECT " O you who believe! Avoid much suspicion (speculation) , indeed some suspicions are sins. .... (49-12) I on the other hand don?t care much about the opinion you have about me, what matters most to me is the judgment of my creator. I f you want to keep on making my post personal then I would simply use this ignore

These verses that you have POSTED are THE TRUTH in the god's book (the arabic of them only) but maybe not how you want to use them or interpret them. Previously, Samia had a post about her looking into how the book uses the verb 'shaheda', I also checked out those verses and I agree that in 2184 it means witnessing as in seeing. Here's why In these verses that you post you notice the word 'bear' mentioned as well as the key words "against" something. In the arabic it's respectively "shaheda 'alaihim", "shahadtum 'alainaa" and "shahednaa 'alaakum", the verb is not standing alone in these cases. In 6130, 7172, 415, 737 this verb is also used the same way with the corresponding preposition 'alaa' to mean against something. In verses like 318, 386 it uses the verb with 'anna' meaning 'that' respectively "the god bears witness that there is no god except Him..." and "...and they bore witness that the messenger is the truth...". We understand in which way bearing witness is being used here. Now in verses 1226, 1281 and 2749 like in 2185 we have the verb without 'alaa' or 'anna'.
1226 ...and a witness witnessed from her family "if his shirt was torn from the front then she was truthful and he is from the liars.

1281 Return to your father and then say "O our father verily your son stole and we didn't witness except with what we knew and we were not for the unseen protectors/ guarders."

2749 ...we didn't witness the destruction of his family and verily we are truthful ones.

This is how I understand arranging similar verses should be done. If I want to look at the word 'shaheda' more closely I will look at all of the verses it's used in. Yes, our skins will be made to bear witness/ testify against some on the day of judgement but I don't see how that subject matter is related to witness shahr ramadan. I am looking at how the verb is used so that I can properly ascertain it's usage in 2185 and this verse doesn't fit since the verb is used differently. In these last verses, how would you understand 'witness'? I clearly see the relation of witnessing something physically. In the first it's about witnessing where a short is torn, next they didn't witness meaning see the brother steal so they can't comment on it and then there's a mention of the unseen as well, and third is clearly physical, witnessing the destruction of his family, seeing it and who did it. But that's me. So noticing that these verses also don't use the previous prepositions as well as in 2185, and remembering consistency in the god's words and their usage, I understand in 2185 to be in regards to seeing the full moon, a clear marker like a woman's menstruation.

If you understand shahr' to mean 'month' then of course we can't witness it in the seeing type of way so maybe that's why you brought those verses but it's the usage of the verb that's the problem, the verb is not used in these verses the same way and I would wonder how that can be ignored?

Arabic is not my native language, I depend on the translations available, and I have explained in my post above to Ahmad how I understand 2185, if you like you can educate me on that as well.

You mention the issue of the blind person. I personally do not have a concrete conclusion on that point as of yet but I would like to add these points if your contention is how would a blind person 'see' the full moon, they can't, so the conclusion is that they are exempted some how and you have a problem with that, well how do they witness a 'month' which is an abstraction? Wouldn't a blind person have to rely on someone telling them that the month is now here start fasting because from what I can tell, correct me if I am wrong, you still agree that something, the new moon, has be seen to know that the month has started. If not, a blind person, whether it's full moon or month, has to rely on others to tell them. Just my observation.
Also if we take witness as you do in this case, then technically, NOBODY knows whether they will 'witness' the whole month in advance i.e. death. Death is the opposite of the type of witnessing that you want to use. This is what really made this 'month' issue not make sense to me. If the month still has the 'new moon' as a marker it has begun, I may be present (i.e. alive) to witness that but that's still only one day, what if I die the next day then technically I didn't witness the 'month' the time period which this word implies because I died but I only witnessed the starting day. How do you reconcile that? If a person dies thereafter, then witnessing the beginning of this 'month', the first night of the new moon, isn't any different from witnessing the 'full moon' but the issue of dying doesn't come up. Or do you have some other way of knowing for sure the beginning of this 'month'?

I would be looking forward to your concrete conclusion on the issue of the blind person.
To me seeing moon physically by each and everyone is not a requirement as long as it?s been acknowledged that the moon been sighted as a mark for the start of the month.
Sun /Moon is not a god/goddess one must see before one's journey to become muta?qeen.

Same here, that's what I will be looking into next. However, firstly, I saw that I have to sought out whether when the god uses the word 'shahr' does He mean full moon or month.

Note In one of the dictionaries I possess, arabic/ english, Al Mawrid by Dr. Rohi Baalbaki, he lists for the first definition of shadeda to witness, see (personally or for oneself) and secondly, to attend, be present at

This is not as important for me however as it was to arrange the verses and see how the god uses the verb but it shows that there is nothing wrong with such a usage and I see that the verb by itself takes this first meaning.

I hope while soughting out whether when the god uses the word 'shahr' does He mean full moon or month. you would also look into surah 981 especially.

My replies are short but thank you for taking time on my post.
peace

truthseeker11

Peace Umm Tariq,

So you want to look at that in 654, the god is giving us the maximum case so that these two verses don't have to agree directly? I can't say it's wrong of you to look at it that way but I have to disagree. Since the god informs us that His book is consistent I like to go with what is consistent. I see it as consistent that in the minimum cases, using either the start of a menstrual cycle (something to be seen) and sighting full moons, they equal. Both are used as markers to start a count. Like I said earlier, maybe the key phrase in verse 654 is 'if you doubt'. Is this implying that the two cases are using the same time frames? Is this implying that when a woman doesn't have a menstrual cycle as a marker, she is to use counting by the 'full moons', as markers instead, which like I showed, in the minimum, produce the same results? Which leads back to my initial question, since you are saying that if using 'month' in 654 has produced the maximum of the menstrual count but certainly for a woman with no cycle she then is bound by this maximum, why the difference? Why should a woman with no cycle automatically wait more than a woman who does? It's just a question that comes to my mind and that's what gives weight to me accepting using 'full moon' for shahr which is accepted in arabic usage.

I would tell you that the full moons are the markers and the wait is what is in between. This is why I brought up the issue of the menstrual cycle verse. The actual cycle of blood lasts on average between 3-7 or 10 days, I've read this before somewhere, so if your issue is that a full moon is technically only 1 night then how can one wait? It's a 'marker', would a woman only be waiting the time she sees blood, 3-7 days, and then she's not waiting, she's starting and stopping each time? That makes no sense. So that's why I see the consistency in the god using 'full moon' as a marker to start a count just like a menstrual cycle is a marker to start a count. I don't see any inconsistencies with this do you still? We can agree to disagree for the moment as well.

bravo bravo bravo

Thank you, very nice points.

farida

Peace farida,

You still have not answered my question

In this life, here and now, how can a blind man witness a "shahr" by his ears or skin ? I am afraid that if you cannot answer this question then it is no use pursuing this particular issue.

Salaam
News of sighting using ears and reading about the news using fingers and also by being alive in the atmosphere of that time.

If believers are attacked and they have to fight back, should they stop as soon as the restricted shahoor begin and let themselves be slaughtered by the attacking enemy ? The attack on the believers can happen any time and is not a "scheduled" event, booked in advance by the enemies. The enemies can start a war and attack the believers one day before the restricted shahoor. What then ? Such a war can easily last through all the restricted shahoor !

I do not see the war in question as a defensive war unless you can prove it from the great reading.
peace

truthseeker11

Peace farida,

Salaam
News of sighting using ears and reading about the news using fingers and also by being alive in the atmosphere of that time.

I do not see the war in question as a defensive war unless you can prove it from the great reading.
peace

You are confusing "witnessing" with "trusting/believing". News can be wrong too. The blind man will be trusting/believing someone else who is giving or printing the news and that cannot be classified as witnessing. nope
913 Would you not fight a people who broke their oaths and intended to expel the messenger, especially while they were the ones who attacked you first? Do you fear them? It is God who is more worthy to be feared if you are believers.

farida

Peace farida,

You are confusing "witnessing" with "trusting/believing". News can be wrong too. The blind man will be trusting/believing someone else who is giving or printing the news and that cannot be classified as witnessing. nope
913 Would you not fight a people who broke their oaths and intended to expel the messenger, especially while they were the ones who attacked you first? Do you fear them? It is God who is more worthy to be feared if you are believers.

No I am not confusing anything you are the confused one and underestimate blind people's judgment. There are many sighted persons who fall prey to wrong guidance, being much more gullible than the blind. In your opinion media can only fool the blind '(

Please don't play politics by asking irrelevant general questions, instead provide proof from the Qur'an that the war in 981 was a defensive war. If you read sura 9 it is quite obvious that it was a process over months that led to this war. And even if we take 981 on its own it is not a defensive war.

92 Therefore, roam the land for four months and know that you will not escape God, and that God will humiliate the rejecters.

95 So when the restricted months have passed, then you may kill those who have set up partners wherever you find them, and take them, and surround them, and stand against them at every point. If they repent, and honor the connection, and contribute towards betterment, then you shall leave them alone. God is Forgiving, Merciful.

peace

truthseeker11

Peace farida,

No I am not confusing anything you are the confused one and underestimate blind people's judgment. There are many sighted persons who fall prey to wrong guidance, being much more gullible than the blind. In your opinion media can only fool the blind '(

Please don't play politics by asking irrelevant general questions, instead provide proof from the Qur'an that the war in 981 was a defensive war. If you read sura 9 it is quite obvious that it was a process over months that led to this war. And even if we take 981 on its own it is not a defensive war.
peace

Let's stick to facts and not get personal. I did not play politics by asking irrelevant general questions. Witnessing/"shahida" is not trusting/believing/"aamana". When a blind man hears news given by someone else or reads news printed by someone else by fingers, he is not "witnessing"/"shahida", but "trusting"/"believing"/"aamana". This is undisputable.
I provided the Quranic proof and you ignored it. There is no point in discussing any further with someone who ignores clear Quranic aayaat. Here it is once again

913 Would you not fight a people who broke their oaths and intended to expel the messenger, especially while they were the ones who attacked you first? Do you fear them? It is God who is more worthy to be feared if you are believers.

I am not going to repeat myself again. Peace out and thank you for the discussion. You can have the last word and knock yourself out!

farida

Peace farida,

Let's stick to facts and not get personal. I did not play politics by asking irrelevant general questions. Witnessing/"shahida" is not trusting/believing/"aamana". When a blind man hears news given by someone else or reads news printed by someone else by fingers, he is not "witnessing"/"shahida", but "trusting"/"believing"/"aamana". This is undisputable.
I provided the Quranic proof and you ignored it. There is no point in discussing any further with someone who ignores clear Quranic aayaat. Here it is once again

913 Would you not fight a people who broke their oaths and intended to expel the messenger, especially while they were the ones who attacked you first? Do you fear them? It is God who is more worthy to be feared if you are believers.

I am not going to repeat myself again. Peace out and thank you for the discussion. You can have the last word and knock yourself out!

Salaam
The skin is capable of witnessing, merely by its presence in the month. Here are two proofs; now you give me a proof that no war was waged in the sacred months.

92 Therefore, roam the land for four months and know that you will not escape God, and that God will humiliate the rejecters.
95 So when the restricted months have passed, then you may kill those who have set up partners wherever you find them, and take them, and surround them, and stand against them at every point. If they repent, and honor the connection, and contribute towards betterment, then you shall leave them alone. God is Forgiving, Merciful.
912 If they violate their oaths after pledging to keep their covenants, and attack your religion, you may fight the leaders of paganism - you are no longer bound by your covenant with them - that they may

truthseeker11

Peace everyone,

First restricted full moon End of June-July variation (the scorching full-moon)
Second restricted full-moon July-August variation
Third restricted full-moon August-September variation
Fourth restricted full-moon September-October variation

Now let's see the average maximum temperatures in the south-west area of Saudi Arabia in September and October (which will be immediately following the four restricted full-moons)

http//www.bbc.co.uk/weather/world/city_guides/results.shtml?tt=TT002760

Average max temp September 36 degrees C (96 degrees F) Discomfort Extreme
Average max temp October 35 degrees C (95 degrees F) Discomfort Extreme

Also see the following

http//www.bbc.co.uk/weather/world/country_guides/results.shtml?tt=TT002770

Excerpt from above

"Any visitor to the states of the Arabian peninsula should be prepared for very hot conditions between May and October."

See the following for Yanbu airport temperatures, which is near Medina

http//www.weather2flights.com/airports/index.php?airport=YNB#weather
http//www.weather2flights.com/airports/index.php?airport=YNB#month-by-month

Look at the September and October temperatures.

Excerpt from above

"Weather at Yanbu Airport in October

In October the average maximum daytime temperature at Yanbu Airport is a very hot 36?C (96?F), with very high heat and humidity. On average only 1 mm (0.1 inches) of rainfall is expected at Yanbu Airport during October, with rain generally falling on just 1 day of the month. There are usually 10 hours of bright sunshine each day, which represents 90% of daylight hours. Average sea temperature around Yanbu Airport in October is a warm 29?C (84?F)."

Now notice the consistency with 981

981 Those who have remained are happy with their position of lagging behind God?s messenger, and they disliked striving with their wealth and lives in the cause of God; and they say ?Do not mobilize in the heat.? Say ?The fire of Hell is far hotter,? if they could only understand.

Ahmad_Bilal

Peace Farida,

brickwall brickwall when did I claim a blind man sighting the moon ???

Please read carefully but just imagine a blind one saying to God, on the Day of Judgement, ?I did not witness the month of Ramadan?. His skin will then speak out against him

If "shahru ramadhan" is the "month of Ramadhan", and you're saying that a month is witnessed by sighting the new crescent moon, then in order for someone to witness/sight the month, he would have to physically sight the new crescent moon. Either way, "ramadhan" is identified by the moon, whether full-moon or new crescent... So, if a blind man said to The God, "I did not witness/sight the 'shahr (moon) of ramadhan'," he would be telling the truth. There's no way he could physically do this. If his skin spoke out about it, it would testify for him that the man was blind...

The skin is capable of witnessing, merely by its presence in the month.

This is incorrect, especially in the case of "shahru ramadhan". If the skin witnessed the "month", then none of us would need calendars... laugh It makes no sense for the reading to address the people who witness "shahru ramadhan" if this applies to everyone alive - that would make the issue completely redundant. It would say something more like

"All of you shall fast/abstain shahru ramadhan..."

It specifically says "shahru ramadhan" is for those who witness it, so it's obviously not pertaining to everyone - there will obviously be LIVING people who will not witness it...

Peace,

Ahmad

unknownuser

Peace Ayman,

Nun, I hope that you can see that you keep repeating fallacious circular arguments. You are trying to prove that "shahr" means "month" starting from the premise that "shahr" means month. This is circular.

No Ayman, it is YOU who is repeating fallacious "full moon" theory circular arguments.

What is this "sacred" nonsense?

You tell us. What is a restricted or whatever you want to call it full moon?

Definition please -- there are four of them right?

Yet somehow we can count exactly 12 full-moons in a solar year and maintain the seasons in sync with the moon cycle (936), while we can't count 12 months in any year. Do you think it is magic?

Yes it's magic; lets count the full moons

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 9 10 11 12 = total time 11 lunar MONTHS!

lunar month x 11 = 324.83649 days

Tell this to the god, he revealed it. Do you think you know better than the god?

NO those are your words. It is you who thinks you know better than the God.

Ego dude -- kill it!

Full moon theory ranks up there with the top three absurdities.

I'm out this thread...

2855 And if they heard the nonsense talk, they turned away from it, and they said "For us our deeds, and for you, your deeds, peace be on you, we do not wish/desire the ignorant."

progod

Truthseeker (I hate calling you this because so far it has not seemed to be a true description, I'd call you a Truthblocker),

Rubbing of thighs produces the same acute inflammatory reaction, and redness is ALWAYS a part of that if the rubbing is strong enough to produce burning sensation. Significant heat is IMPOSSIBLE without the accompanying redness due to increased blood flow.

That depends on how dark your thighs are, but in any case since WHEN does the word Burning = redness? it doesn't. And neither does ramada equal hamira/hamura or Ihmarra. So stop side stepping the issue. I know people who's thighs will NEVER turn red, despite the local blood flow. Inflamation in very dark areas of the body often turn darker and even purple in some people. No redness. That would incude the Akhdar (dark brown Arabs) and the aswad (black) Arabs. I know you will tell me that akhdar is green but it also stood for the dark brown Arabs who weren't literally the color black as you will find among some Arabs and Africans who are almost black.

Thank you for switching to "substitution" for feeding the people and fasting which is the right word instead of "expiation" in the context of 583-4 and 589 and not misleading people anymore. Substitution works both ways and the things which are alternative substitutes are EQUIVALENT, no matter what the order. 589 talks about substituting fasting 3 days for feeding 10 people which gives a ratio of 13.33 using the same "substitution" or "equivalence" logic and thus your deduction that one day of fasting is always equivalent to feeding one person according to The Quran is a false statement.

About the word choice, expiation vs. subsitution, WHATEVER. You are picking at straws here. I am misleading no one. You are misleading yourself. And this is why you are wrong. Feeding individuals for each day of fasting you miss is a substitution AND an expiation for the fast missed. I can't believe you are arguing this and that you believe yourself. I AM ONLY TALKING ABOUT THE SUBSTITUTION AND EXPIATION OF A DAILY FAST. in 589 you cannot make up for the fast because it is the last resort. But in 583-4 and in al-baqarah we are talking about the expiatory substitution (I combined the two terms to make it more understandable to you) of fasting. So you are spreading falseness and the confusion here by unjustly knitpicking at words and not understanding the meanings behind these words. And this is English!

To make up for a day of fasting missed you feed 1 person. In the context of 589 you cannot make up for the fast because it is the very last resort. Therfore the Quran DOES equate the feeding of 1 indvidual to make up for missing one daily fast, and 2 months to 60 daily fasts by saying we make up for 2 months of fasting by feeding 60 individuals. If you want to try confuse the people here and yourself more, feel free. But the truth has been spoken here and whoever will try to confuse, shall try to confuse.

Godbless,
Anwar

progod

I'm glad Nun de Plume sees through this mess. It's a shame no matter how clearly false this is, Ayman keeps trying to push this.

Just like Nun de Plume said

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 9 10 11 12 = total time 11 lunar MONTHS!

lunar month x 11 = 324.83649 days

That's not a year, now matter how many times you try to push it

But Ayman says

Yet somehow we can count exactly 12 full-moons in a solar year and maintain the seasons in sync with the moon cycle (936), while we can't count 12 months in any year. Do you think it is magic?

Let's repeat that cold truth again just in case you didn't get it

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 9 10 11 12 = total time 11 lunar MONTHS!

lunar month x 11 = 324.83649 days

That is not even close to a solar year of 365 days. Not only do you have 41 days left you have a 13th full moon left and 11 days left before you get to 365. 13 shahr = unquranic and 41 days left = not even close to a solar year.

Quote from ayman on Today at 024059 AM
Nun, I hope that you can see that you keep repeating fallacious circular arguments. You are trying to prove that "shahr" means "month" starting from the premise that "shahr" means month. This is circular.

No Ayman, it is YOU who is repeating fallacious "full moon" theory circular arguments.

Quote from ayman on Today at 024059 AM
What is this "sacred" nonsense?

You tell us. What is a restricted or whatever you want to call it full moon?

Definition please -- there are four of them right?

Quote from ayman on Today at 024059 AM
Yet somehow we can count exactly 12 full-moons in a solar year and maintain the seasons in sync with the moon cycle (936), while we can't count 12 months in any year. Do you think it is magic?

Yes it's magic; lets count the full moons

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 9 10 11 12 = total time 11 lunar MONTHS!

lunar month x 11 = 324.83649 days

Quote from ayman on Today at 024059 AM
Tell this to the god, he revealed it. Do you think you know better than the god?

NO those are your words. It is you who thinks you know better than the God.

Ego dude -- kill it!

Full moon theory ranks up there with the top three absurdities.

I'm out this thread...

2855 And if they heard the nonsense talk, they turned away from it, and they said "For us our deeds, and for you, your deeds, peace be on you, we do not wish/desire the ignorant."

Godbless,
Anwar

truthseeker11

progod (I hate calling you this because so far it has not seemed to be a true description, I'd call you antigod),

Truthseeker (I hate calling you this because so far it has not seemed to be a true description, I'd call you a Truthblocker),

That depends on how dark your thighs are, but in any case since WHEN does the word Burning = redness? it doesn't. And neither does ramada equal hamira/hamura or Ihmarra. So stop side stepping the issue. I know people who's thighs will NEVER turn red, despite the local blood flow. Inflamation in very dark areas of the body often turn darker and even purple in some people. No redness. That would incude the Akhdar (dark brown Arabs) and the aswad (black) Arabs. I know you will tell me that akhdar is green but it also stood for the dark brown Arabs who weren't literally the color black as you will find among some Arabs and Africans who are almost black.

About the word choice, expiation vs. subsitution, WHATEVER. You are picking at straws here. I am misleading no one. You are misleading yourself. And this is why you are wrong. Feeding individuals for each day of fasting you miss is a substitution AND an expiation for the fast missed. I can't believe you are arguing this and that you believe yourself. I AM ONLY TALKING ABOUT THE SUBSTITUTION AND EXPIATION OF A DAILY FAST. in 589 you cannot make up for the fast because it is the last resort. But in 583-4 and in al-baqarah we are talking about the expiatory substitution (I combined the two terms to make it more understandable to you) of fasting. So you are spreading falseness and the confusion here by unjustly knitpicking at words and not understanding the meanings behind these words. And this is English!

To make up for a day of fasting missed you feed 1 person. In the context of 589 you cannot make up for the fast because it is the very last resort. Therfore the Quran DOES equate the feeding of 1 indvidual to make up for missing one daily fast, and 2 months to 60 daily fasts by saying we make up for 2 months of fasting by feeding 60 individuals. If you want to try confuse the people here and yourself more, feel free. But the truth has been spoken here and whoever will try to confuse, shall try to confuse.

Godbless,
Anwar

Back to your gibberish nonsense and misleading people ?

In 583-4 feeding people is NOT an expiation or expiatory substitution for fasting but for estranging one's wife. Be fearful of God for distorting His clear verses and His clear message and misleading others.

In darker people the skin still turns red, its only darker.

Keep on being arrogant and spreading lies about God and His message. You will be accountable for this on the Last Day. Your logic is "BECAUSE I SAY SO" and has nothing to do with truth or factual evidence.

When replies like yours get personal (which is antigod too) then I'm out.

progod

Back to your gibberish nonsense and misleading people ?

Hmm, truthblocker and antigod? Well I wouldn't call you antigod. But you certainly are blocking truth here. Hence the epithet. But I naturally suppose that you are just as progod as I am although it seems you have some trouble with blocking some truths. Like the following.

In 583-4 feeding people is NOT an expiation or expiatory substitution for fasting but for estranging one's wife. Be fearful of God for distorting His clear verses and His clear message and misleading others.

I'm not distorting God's clear verses in any way. The verse in chapt. 2 and these make it crystal clear that if you want to expiate a fast except where fasting is the last resort (for whatever reason the fast is God's command to just fast or if the fast is to expiate a sin) you feed a person per daily fast you miss. If you can't see that, then I'm sorry for you.

In darker people the skin still turns red, its only darker.

If you can't see red, then it doesn't turn red. Seems you don't know much about darker people.

Keep on being arrogant and spreading lies about God and His message. You will be accountable for this on the Last Day. Your logic is "BECAUSE I SAY SO" and has nothing to do with truth or factual evidence.

Not at all. The evidence is factual, but you are kntipicking on words and I am showing you the logic of the matter.

When replies like yours get personal (which is antigod too) then I'm out.

That is your decision. All I know is that as it concerned these topic you were absolutely blocking the truth, and hence I felt the need to call you on it. Of course you will not thin that that is the case (or atleast you won't admit it) but when it is clear in the Quran that subsituting or expiating a duty to fast is done by feeding individuals per daily fast missed and hence the Quran equates 2 months of fasting to 60 days worth of it and you try to deny that by twisting a verse where fasting is the very last option and there is no expiating it if the previous options are not feasible, well that is deny factual evidence, and I don't have to say so for it to be so.

I don't wish for you to leave the conversation because you felt I was trying to maliciously insult you. Whether you took it as that or not, it was not malicioius, on that I swear. But you were being unjust inflexible and refusing to see it from my position to even being to illustrate the possible correctness of yours. The only way to to prove me wrong was to completely ignore my logic and that is unjust and not the way of a true truthseeker. I made room for your knitpicking of words by including others to help you get past your rigid perceptions of these words but you weren't having it. And when someone refuses to see the bigger picture like that, it is not truth seeking, it is truth blocking to themselves and to others.

Honestly it seemed to me that you were just defending Ayman from what you may have seen as unjust criticism. That may not be true, but the above points still remain.

Godbless,
Anwar

farida

Peace everyone,

"Weather at Yanbu Airport in October

In October the average maximum daytime temperature at Yanbu Airport is a very hot 36?C (96?F), with very high heat and humidity. On average only 1 mm (0.1 inches) of rainfall is expected at Yanbu Airport during October, with rain generally falling on just 1 day of the month. There are usually 10 hours of bright sunshine each day, which represents 90% of daylight hours. Average sea temperature around Yanbu Airport in October is a warm 29?C (84?F)."

Now notice the consistency with 981

981 Those who have remained are happy with their position of lagging behind God?s messenger, and they disliked striving with their wealth and lives in the cause of God; and they say ?Do not mobilize in the heat.? Say ?The fire of Hell is far hotter,? if they could only understand.

Salaam
I am sorry; you seem to be more desprate than Ayman to justify his theory; its mind blowing. So you say the war in hot October and they said do not mobilize in the heat even though soon it will be nicer weather in November. ???
peace

farida

Peace Farida,

If "shahru ramadhan" is the "month of Ramadhan", and you're saying that a month is witnessed by sighting the new crescent moon, then in order for someone to witness/sight the month, he would have to physically sight the new crescent moon. Either way, "ramadhan" is identified by the moon, whether full-moon or new crescent... So, if a blind man said to The God, "I did not witness/sight the 'shahr (moon) of ramadhan'," he would be telling the truth. There's no way he could physically do this. If his skin spoke out about it, it would testify for him that the man was blind...

This is incorrect, especially in the case of "shahru ramadhan". If the skin witnessed the "month", then none of us would need calendars... laugh It makes no sense for the reading to address the people who witness "shahru ramadhan" if this applies to everyone alive - that would make the issue completely redundant. It would say something more like

"All of you shall fast/abstain shahru ramadhan..."

It specifically says "shahru ramadhan" is for those who witness it, so it's obviously not pertaining to everyone - there will obviously be LIVING people who will not witness it...

Peace,

Ahmad

Salaam Ahmad

Lets not waste time on nonsense talk. If this is how you see a blind person's situation that "There's no way he could physically do this. If his skin spoke out about it, it would testify for him that the man was blind" then it?s your understanding and you have your way but don't impose it on others.

I understand that a blind person is as much part of the deen as sighted ones, and the Moon is not an object of worship that had to be sighted to qualify fasting a path to muta'qeen. It?s an insult to an intelligent blind Muslim that he/she is exempt from fasting. This is common sense, this is my understanding and a blind person, by being present in the month of fasting, is amongst those who witnessed, unless he is on a journey or sick. I can't make it simpler then this.
If you have made up your mind that you would start your fasting according to Ayman's theroy, where by hook or by crook you would make sure that the month of fasting falls in the summer, even by skipping the 13th moon, as if one can skip time by that, ;then good luck. You are not answerable to me; we are all answerable to our creator. That is certainly not my deen

peace

belH

Salaam
I am sorry; you seem to be more desprate than Ayman to justify his theory; its mind blowing. So you say the war in hot October and they said do not mobilize in the heat even though soon it will be nicer weather in November. ???
peace

Peace everyone;

Frida, it seams that they can't deny that 9-81 is about the war that were mentioned in 9-1to5. Thus, they will try to twist the truth and show that October weather is Summer weather, when it is known to be Fall. Also, they ignored that the Prophet was in Madina that has different weather than what they showed. Madina Weather is similar to Jordan, and much cooler than Mecca.
peace

Peace Ayman,

No Ayman, it is YOU who is repeating fallacious "full moon" theory circular arguments.

You tell us. What is a restricted or whatever you want to call it full moon?

Definition please -- there are four of them right?

Yes it's magic; lets count the full moons

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 9 10 11 12 = total time 11 lunar MONTHS!

lunar month x 11 = 324.83649 days

NO those are your words. It is you who thinks you know better than the God.

Ego dude -- kill it!

Full moon theory ranks up there with the top three absurdities.

I'm out this thread...

2855 And if they heard the nonsense talk, they turned away from it, and they said "For us our deeds, and for you, your deeds, peace be on you, we do not wish/desire the ignorant."

May God increase your Knowledge and Wisdom, and every true Believer in this Forum.

truthseeker11

Peace belal, everyone,

Peace everyone;

Frida, it seams that they can't deny that 9-81 is about the war that were mentioned in 9-1to5. Thus, they will try to twist the truth and show that October weather is Summer weather, when it is known to be Fall. Also, they ignored that the Prophet was in Madina that has different weather than what they showed. Madina Weather is similar to Jordan, and much cooler than Mecca.
peace

May God increase your Knowledge and Wisdom, and every true Believer in this Forum.

Who is "they"? I am just one person trying to find the truth for myself by participating in a forum discussion with others. I am trying to listen to all the views and follow the best. Instead of being personal, we should focus on the facts backed by evidences to arrive at the truth.

3918 The ones who listen to what is being said, and then follow the best of it. These are the ones whom God has guided, and these are the ones who possess intelligence.

There is no evidence that the war being mentioned in 981 is the same as the one being ordered in the beginning of chapter 9. You have not been able to prove it from The Quran despite repeated requests.

I am trying to cover all possibilities. I don't think it is the same war, but EVEN IF IT IS, I have shown that it is possible to have hot weather after the restricted shahoor even if shahru ramadhan started in July. I referenced temperatures of Yanbu which is very close to Medina and has similar temperatures. Actually The Quran does not say where the war/wars mentioned in chapter 9 were fought. It is a fact, however, that October in the Arabian peninsula is still a month of EXTREME heat.

Following is a temperature forecast for Medina for end of September

http//www.accuweather.com/world-forecast-15day.asp?partner=accuweather&traveler=0&locCode=MEA|SA|SA005|MEDINA&metric=1

Next month, this link will show the temperatures for October and then you will be able to see for yourself how hot it is in October in Medina. Even November is quite hot in that area.

See the following again

http//www.weather2flights.com/airports/index.php?airport=YNB#weather
http//www.weather2flights.com/airports/index.php?airport=YNB#month-by-month

"Weather at Yanbu Airport in November

In November the average maximum daytime temperature at Yanbu Airport is a hot 32?C (89?F), with high heat and humidity. On average only 19 mm (0.7 inches) of rainfall is expected at Yanbu Airport during November, with rain generally falling on just 1 day of the month."

Where is the "nice November weather" as mentioned by farida?

It does not matter what the November weather was because even if the last restricted full-moon was in October and even if the war of 981 was immediately after that full-moon, it would still have been VERY HOT at that time according to all the factual data I have presented.

There are three hypothetical possibilities and none of them contradict the "shahru ramadhan" being in scorching hot time period

The war of 981 started immediately after the restricted shahoor. It would still be very hot when the war started as I have shown above.
The war of 981 started before the restricted shahoor in May or June. It would be very hot when the war started and shahru ramadhan can still be in the scorching time period.
The third hypothetical scenario is the following which still does not contradict "shahru ramadhan" being in scorching heat

a. Shahru ramadhan is witnessed on July 11 in the year 610 CE

http//www.timeanddate.com/calendar/moonphases.html?year=610&n=151

b. Mushrikeen break the treaty with the believers on July 10, 610. This is considered an act of aggression and an attack on the believers per 913.
c. Believers wait until the 4 restricted shahoor have passed and then attack the mushrikeen after October 8 (4th restricted full-moon), while it is still very hot. This is a defensive war because the believers were attacked first (see 913)
d. The war continues the whole remaining year and into the next year until June 611 CE arrives. At this time the believers are again fighting in hot weather.
e. Shahru ramadhan is witnessed on June 30, 611. The mushrikeen keep attacking the believers, and the defensive war continues in the restricted shahoor in 611 because the mushrikeen refuse to stop the physical war.
f. The mushrikeen are finally defeated near the end of 611 CE

As you can see, shahru ramadhan can be in the scorching heat in all possible scenarios, with no contradiction between 91-13 and 981!