Hot/"ramadan" Answer

truthseeker11

progod (I hate calling you this because so far it has not seemed to be a true description, I'd call you antigod),

Truthseeker (I hate calling you this because so far it has not seemed to be a true description, I'd call you a Truthblocker),

That depends on how dark your thighs are, but in any case since WHEN does the word Burning = redness? it doesn't. And neither does ramada equal hamira/hamura or Ihmarra. So stop side stepping the issue. I know people who's thighs will NEVER turn red, despite the local blood flow. Inflamation in very dark areas of the body often turn darker and even purple in some people. No redness. That would incude the Akhdar (dark brown Arabs) and the aswad (black) Arabs. I know you will tell me that akhdar is green but it also stood for the dark brown Arabs who weren't literally the color black as you will find among some Arabs and Africans who are almost black.

About the word choice, expiation vs. subsitution, WHATEVER. You are picking at straws here. I am misleading no one. You are misleading yourself. And this is why you are wrong. Feeding individuals for each day of fasting you miss is a substitution AND an expiation for the fast missed. I can't believe you are arguing this and that you believe yourself. I AM ONLY TALKING ABOUT THE SUBSTITUTION AND EXPIATION OF A DAILY FAST. in 589 you cannot make up for the fast because it is the last resort. But in 583-4 and in al-baqarah we are talking about the expiatory substitution (I combined the two terms to make it more understandable to you) of fasting. So you are spreading falseness and the confusion here by unjustly knitpicking at words and not understanding the meanings behind these words. And this is English!

To make up for a day of fasting missed you feed 1 person. In the context of 589 you cannot make up for the fast because it is the very last resort. Therfore the Quran DOES equate the feeding of 1 indvidual to make up for missing one daily fast, and 2 months to 60 daily fasts by saying we make up for 2 months of fasting by feeding 60 individuals. If you want to try confuse the people here and yourself more, feel free. But the truth has been spoken here and whoever will try to confuse, shall try to confuse.

Godbless,
Anwar

Back to your gibberish nonsense and misleading people ?

In 583-4 feeding people is NOT an expiation or expiatory substitution for fasting but for estranging one's wife. Be fearful of God for distorting His clear verses and His clear message and misleading others.

In darker people the skin still turns red, its only darker.

Keep on being arrogant and spreading lies about God and His message. You will be accountable for this on the Last Day. Your logic is "BECAUSE I SAY SO" and has nothing to do with truth or factual evidence.

When replies like yours get personal (which is antigod too) then I'm out.

progod

Back to your gibberish nonsense and misleading people ?

Hmm, truthblocker and antigod? Well I wouldn't call you antigod. But you certainly are blocking truth here. Hence the epithet. But I naturally suppose that you are just as progod as I am although it seems you have some trouble with blocking some truths. Like the following.

In 583-4 feeding people is NOT an expiation or expiatory substitution for fasting but for estranging one's wife. Be fearful of God for distorting His clear verses and His clear message and misleading others.

I'm not distorting God's clear verses in any way. The verse in chapt. 2 and these make it crystal clear that if you want to expiate a fast except where fasting is the last resort (for whatever reason the fast is God's command to just fast or if the fast is to expiate a sin) you feed a person per daily fast you miss. If you can't see that, then I'm sorry for you.

In darker people the skin still turns red, its only darker.

If you can't see red, then it doesn't turn red. Seems you don't know much about darker people.

Keep on being arrogant and spreading lies about God and His message. You will be accountable for this on the Last Day. Your logic is "BECAUSE I SAY SO" and has nothing to do with truth or factual evidence.

Not at all. The evidence is factual, but you are kntipicking on words and I am showing you the logic of the matter.

When replies like yours get personal (which is antigod too) then I'm out.

That is your decision. All I know is that as it concerned these topic you were absolutely blocking the truth, and hence I felt the need to call you on it. Of course you will not thin that that is the case (or atleast you won't admit it) but when it is clear in the Quran that subsituting or expiating a duty to fast is done by feeding individuals per daily fast missed and hence the Quran equates 2 months of fasting to 60 days worth of it and you try to deny that by twisting a verse where fasting is the very last option and there is no expiating it if the previous options are not feasible, well that is deny factual evidence, and I don't have to say so for it to be so.

I don't wish for you to leave the conversation because you felt I was trying to maliciously insult you. Whether you took it as that or not, it was not malicioius, on that I swear. But you were being unjust inflexible and refusing to see it from my position to even being to illustrate the possible correctness of yours. The only way to to prove me wrong was to completely ignore my logic and that is unjust and not the way of a true truthseeker. I made room for your knitpicking of words by including others to help you get past your rigid perceptions of these words but you weren't having it. And when someone refuses to see the bigger picture like that, it is not truth seeking, it is truth blocking to themselves and to others.

Honestly it seemed to me that you were just defending Ayman from what you may have seen as unjust criticism. That may not be true, but the above points still remain.

Godbless,
Anwar

farida

Peace everyone,

"Weather at Yanbu Airport in October

In October the average maximum daytime temperature at Yanbu Airport is a very hot 36?C (96?F), with very high heat and humidity. On average only 1 mm (0.1 inches) of rainfall is expected at Yanbu Airport during October, with rain generally falling on just 1 day of the month. There are usually 10 hours of bright sunshine each day, which represents 90% of daylight hours. Average sea temperature around Yanbu Airport in October is a warm 29?C (84?F)."

Now notice the consistency with 981

981 Those who have remained are happy with their position of lagging behind God?s messenger, and they disliked striving with their wealth and lives in the cause of God; and they say ?Do not mobilize in the heat.? Say ?The fire of Hell is far hotter,? if they could only understand.

Salaam
I am sorry; you seem to be more desprate than Ayman to justify his theory; its mind blowing. So you say the war in hot October and they said do not mobilize in the heat even though soon it will be nicer weather in November. ???
peace

farida

Peace Farida,

If "shahru ramadhan" is the "month of Ramadhan", and you're saying that a month is witnessed by sighting the new crescent moon, then in order for someone to witness/sight the month, he would have to physically sight the new crescent moon. Either way, "ramadhan" is identified by the moon, whether full-moon or new crescent... So, if a blind man said to The God, "I did not witness/sight the 'shahr (moon) of ramadhan'," he would be telling the truth. There's no way he could physically do this. If his skin spoke out about it, it would testify for him that the man was blind...

This is incorrect, especially in the case of "shahru ramadhan". If the skin witnessed the "month", then none of us would need calendars... laugh It makes no sense for the reading to address the people who witness "shahru ramadhan" if this applies to everyone alive - that would make the issue completely redundant. It would say something more like

"All of you shall fast/abstain shahru ramadhan..."

It specifically says "shahru ramadhan" is for those who witness it, so it's obviously not pertaining to everyone - there will obviously be LIVING people who will not witness it...

Peace,

Ahmad

Salaam Ahmad

Lets not waste time on nonsense talk. If this is how you see a blind person's situation that "There's no way he could physically do this. If his skin spoke out about it, it would testify for him that the man was blind" then it?s your understanding and you have your way but don't impose it on others.

I understand that a blind person is as much part of the deen as sighted ones, and the Moon is not an object of worship that had to be sighted to qualify fasting a path to muta'qeen. It?s an insult to an intelligent blind Muslim that he/she is exempt from fasting. This is common sense, this is my understanding and a blind person, by being present in the month of fasting, is amongst those who witnessed, unless he is on a journey or sick. I can't make it simpler then this.
If you have made up your mind that you would start your fasting according to Ayman's theroy, where by hook or by crook you would make sure that the month of fasting falls in the summer, even by skipping the 13th moon, as if one can skip time by that, ;then good luck. You are not answerable to me; we are all answerable to our creator. That is certainly not my deen

peace

belH

Salaam
I am sorry; you seem to be more desprate than Ayman to justify his theory; its mind blowing. So you say the war in hot October and they said do not mobilize in the heat even though soon it will be nicer weather in November. ???
peace

Peace everyone;

Frida, it seams that they can't deny that 9-81 is about the war that were mentioned in 9-1to5. Thus, they will try to twist the truth and show that October weather is Summer weather, when it is known to be Fall. Also, they ignored that the Prophet was in Madina that has different weather than what they showed. Madina Weather is similar to Jordan, and much cooler than Mecca.
peace

Peace Ayman,

No Ayman, it is YOU who is repeating fallacious "full moon" theory circular arguments.

You tell us. What is a restricted or whatever you want to call it full moon?

Definition please -- there are four of them right?

Yes it's magic; lets count the full moons

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 9 10 11 12 = total time 11 lunar MONTHS!

lunar month x 11 = 324.83649 days

NO those are your words. It is you who thinks you know better than the God.

Ego dude -- kill it!

Full moon theory ranks up there with the top three absurdities.

I'm out this thread...

2855 And if they heard the nonsense talk, they turned away from it, and they said "For us our deeds, and for you, your deeds, peace be on you, we do not wish/desire the ignorant."

May God increase your Knowledge and Wisdom, and every true Believer in this Forum.

truthseeker11

Peace belal, everyone,

Peace everyone;

Frida, it seams that they can't deny that 9-81 is about the war that were mentioned in 9-1to5. Thus, they will try to twist the truth and show that October weather is Summer weather, when it is known to be Fall. Also, they ignored that the Prophet was in Madina that has different weather than what they showed. Madina Weather is similar to Jordan, and much cooler than Mecca.
peace

May God increase your Knowledge and Wisdom, and every true Believer in this Forum.

Who is "they"? I am just one person trying to find the truth for myself by participating in a forum discussion with others. I am trying to listen to all the views and follow the best. Instead of being personal, we should focus on the facts backed by evidences to arrive at the truth.

3918 The ones who listen to what is being said, and then follow the best of it. These are the ones whom God has guided, and these are the ones who possess intelligence.

There is no evidence that the war being mentioned in 981 is the same as the one being ordered in the beginning of chapter 9. You have not been able to prove it from The Quran despite repeated requests.

I am trying to cover all possibilities. I don't think it is the same war, but EVEN IF IT IS, I have shown that it is possible to have hot weather after the restricted shahoor even if shahru ramadhan started in July. I referenced temperatures of Yanbu which is very close to Medina and has similar temperatures. Actually The Quran does not say where the war/wars mentioned in chapter 9 were fought. It is a fact, however, that October in the Arabian peninsula is still a month of EXTREME heat.

Following is a temperature forecast for Medina for end of September

http//www.accuweather.com/world-forecast-15day.asp?partner=accuweather&traveler=0&locCode=MEA|SA|SA005|MEDINA&metric=1

Next month, this link will show the temperatures for October and then you will be able to see for yourself how hot it is in October in Medina. Even November is quite hot in that area.

See the following again

http//www.weather2flights.com/airports/index.php?airport=YNB#weather
http//www.weather2flights.com/airports/index.php?airport=YNB#month-by-month

"Weather at Yanbu Airport in November

In November the average maximum daytime temperature at Yanbu Airport is a hot 32?C (89?F), with high heat and humidity. On average only 19 mm (0.7 inches) of rainfall is expected at Yanbu Airport during November, with rain generally falling on just 1 day of the month."

Where is the "nice November weather" as mentioned by farida?

It does not matter what the November weather was because even if the last restricted full-moon was in October and even if the war of 981 was immediately after that full-moon, it would still have been VERY HOT at that time according to all the factual data I have presented.

There are three hypothetical possibilities and none of them contradict the "shahru ramadhan" being in scorching hot time period

The war of 981 started immediately after the restricted shahoor. It would still be very hot when the war started as I have shown above.
The war of 981 started before the restricted shahoor in May or June. It would be very hot when the war started and shahru ramadhan can still be in the scorching time period.
The third hypothetical scenario is the following which still does not contradict "shahru ramadhan" being in scorching heat

a. Shahru ramadhan is witnessed on July 11 in the year 610 CE

http//www.timeanddate.com/calendar/moonphases.html?year=610&n=151

b. Mushrikeen break the treaty with the believers on July 10, 610. This is considered an act of aggression and an attack on the believers per 913.
c. Believers wait until the 4 restricted shahoor have passed and then attack the mushrikeen after October 8 (4th restricted full-moon), while it is still very hot. This is a defensive war because the believers were attacked first (see 913)
d. The war continues the whole remaining year and into the next year until June 611 CE arrives. At this time the believers are again fighting in hot weather.
e. Shahru ramadhan is witnessed on June 30, 611. The mushrikeen keep attacking the believers, and the defensive war continues in the restricted shahoor in 611 because the mushrikeen refuse to stop the physical war.
f. The mushrikeen are finally defeated near the end of 611 CE

As you can see, shahru ramadhan can be in the scorching heat in all possible scenarios, with no contradiction between 91-13 and 981!

belH

Peace belal, everyone,

There is no evidence that the war being mentioned in 981 is the same as the one being ordered in the beginning of chapter 9. You have not been able to prove it from The Quran despite repeated requests.

That was an answer, beside Farida's.

Peace all;
Sorry I'm posting this without reading your replies (I was too busy today)

Hello Mr. TruthSeeker

As we all know, the prophet was ordered to fight when being attacked, and was ordered to not start a war. But when Chapter 9 was revealed, things changed for a period of time. In Chapter 9, from verse 1 to 5, the prophet understood that he has to prepare for a war in which he would be in the offensive side. He was ordered to free the Secret Mosque from the disbelievers. We know that the war had to start after the 4 restricted month (per 9-1 to 5), and we know that it took place in summer time (per 9-81).
In 9-81, it was clear that the hypocrites were advising the prophet to not start the war in Summer time; hence, the prophet was on the offensive side and was in control of when the war should start; hence, the only war that the prophet was on the offensive side was the war of Chapter 9. !
If you happened to know another war where the prophet was in control of when it should start (offensive side), please let me know.

Also, please let me know why you are so stressed about Ayman Theory?
Are you Ayman himself? confused

It is a fact, however, that October in the Arabian peninsula is still a month of EXTREME heat.

If you following Ayman's, the 4 restricted Months will end in the end of October and the begining of November. And according to your link, such months will be the begining of the Lowest Heat season of the year.

Following is a temperature forecast for Medina for end of September

http//www.accuweather.com/world-forecast-15day.asp?partner=accuweather&traveler=0&locCode=MEA|SA|SA005|MEDINA&metric=1

I could not get any info in this link.

)

truthseeker11

Peace belal,

That was an answer, beside Farida's.

If you following Ayman's, the 4 restricted Months will end in the end of October and the begining of November. And according to your link, such months will be the begining of the Lowest Heat season of the year.

I could not get any info in this link.

Click on the link and then enter Medina, Saudi Arabia in the search field and then look at the 15 day forecast.

If the first restricted full-moon i.e. the scorching full-moon (shahru ramadhan) is in July, the 4th restricted full-moon will be in October. For example, this year the scorching full-moon was on July 18, which would be the first restricted full-moon, and the 4th restricted full-moon will be on Oct 14. Oct 15th will be after the 4 restricted full-moons (ashhur alharaam).

Even November is hot in the south-west Arabian peninsula. According to the links I referenced in my earlier post, the average maximum temperature in November in Yanbu (near Medina) is 32 degrees C (90 degrees F), and combined with humidity, it feels hot in November too. The highest temperatures in November can go up to as high as 40 degrees C in that region (104 degrees F).

ayman

Peace Truthseeker,

There are three hypothetical possibilities and none of them contradict the "shahru ramadhan" being in scorching hot time period

The war of 981 started immediately after the restricted shahoor. It would still be very hot when the war started as I have shown above.
The war of 981 started before the restricted shahoor in May or June. It would be very hot when the war started and shahru ramadhan can still be in the scorching time period.
The third hypothetical scenario is the following which still does not contradict "shahru ramadhan" being in scorching heat
a. Shahru ramadhan is witnessed on July 11 in the year 610 CE
http//www.timeanddate.com/calendar/moonphases.html?year=610&n=151
b. Mushrikeen break the treaty with the believers on July 10, 610. This is considered an act of aggression and an attack on the believers per 913.
c. Believers wait until the 4 restricted shahoor have passed and then attack the mushrikeen after October 8 (4th restricted full-moon), while it is still very hot. This is a defensive war because the believers were attacked first (see 913)
d. The war continues the whole remaining year and into the next year until June 611 CE arrives. At this time the believers are again fighting in hot weather.
e. Shahru ramadhan is witnessed on June 30, 611. The mushrikeen keep attacking the believers, and the defensive war continues in the restricted shahoor in 611 because the mushrikeen refuse to stop the physical war.
f. The mushrikeen are finally defeated near the end of 611 CE

First, there is no need for any of those scenarios since even if one assumes like Belal that the passages in chapter 9 are arranged chronologically immediately following one another then there are many events described between 95 and 981, for example

The battle in 925.
The event in 928.
The fight against the people of the book in 929.
The event in 940.
The fight against the hypocrites in 973.

The most important piece of evidence is in 986 which clearly says" "And when a chapter is descended...". We know for certain that the great reading was descended during "shahr ramadan" (2185). So 981 describing "a hot time of the year" actually confirms that "shahr ramadan" occurs during the hot time of the year. So given this fact and the number of events that could have happened between 95 and 981, the fourth and I think the most likely scenario is that almost a year had passed and now we are back to the restricted full-moons again. Please remember that according to 2217 BIG fighting is allowed during the restriction. The only thing the restriction is really about is hunting wild life. So this time around the believers are fighting the rejecters during the restricted period.

Peace,

Ayman

belH

Peace belal,

Even November is hot in the south-west Arabian peninsula. According to the links I referenced in my earlier post, the average maximum temperature in November in Yanbu (near Medina) is 32 degrees C (90 degrees F), and combined with humidity, it feels hot in November too. The highest temperatures in November can go up to as high as 40 degrees C in that region (104 degrees F).

Peace all;
According to the link

http//www.bbc.co.uk/weather/world/country_guides/results.shtml?tt=TT002770, can you tell which are the coolest months of the year?
Please, can every body check the link and answer a straight answer.
Also, ca anybody ask truth seeker, why he does not want to provide a temperature history for the Madina, as he did for Mecca.

Umm_Tariq

Peace all,

Nun, I hope that you still answer my post here.

Peace Umm Tariq,

How do they not agree?

The phrase ?shahr? is NOT in 2228.

Shahr = time
Menstrual cycle = event

2228 And the divorced wait with themselves three menstrual cycles

654 And those who became infertile from the menstruation from your women, if you became doubtful/suspicious, so their term/count (is) three months, and those who did not menstruate, and (those) of the pregnant, their term/time (is) that they give birth?

I know the word 'shahr' is not in 2228 what I was pointing to was the fact that the subject is the same, divorce, and when one takes the word 'shahr' as 'full moon', to use as a marker it's not the 'time period' itself just like menstruation, then I see the consistency of the god's message kept since this verse and 654 will EQUAL in the minimum case. I have shown you how what you produced doesn't cause equality. Then I asked you, why in the minimum count, should the post-menstrual wait longer than the menstrual woman if shahr is taken as month? You haven't answered this for me. If 'to be sure' is your answer then THAT actually shows that there is doubt in your way of counting but this doesn't come up when using 'full moon'. Can you provide a stronger reason for the difference?

I also agree that you are not seeing the real purpose of our discussion. Your conclusion is that 'shahr' equals time, a month, and my conclusion is that it is most consistent in the reading that 'shahr' should be 'full moon' so you can't point out to me I am wrong using your conclusion. I already included that the these two definitions do not equal each other. I have looked at your perspective and I see inconsistencies which aren't there with using 'full moon' so we will have to agree to disagree.

I have 2 more points. You bolded when I was quoting YOUR question about '4 sacred full moons', I do not agree that the word 'hurum' equates to 'sacred' which to me has religious baggage attached to it. Here's how the god explains what He means by 4 (arba'a) hurum

936 Verily the count of the shuhur with the god is twelve sharan in the book/ decree of the god the time He created the skies and the earth from them are arba'a hurum. That is the straight/ valuable obligation so do not oppress/ wrong yourselves within/ during them...

2217 They are asking you about the shahr haraam fighting therein. Say fighting therein is kabeer...

595 O you who have believed do not kill the game while you are hurum

92 So travel through the earth arba'a ashhur and know that you cannot outstrip/ escape the god...

95 So when the ashhur hurum have passed then fight the mushrikeen wherever you find them...

In 936, 2217 and 595 the God is telling us what not to do during these 4 hurum which is why they are described as hurum. In 92 one may wonder about why 4 ashhur, what's the significance so in 95 the god is confirming that these are the ashhur hurum in which, by 2217, the believers are discouraged from fighting within this time frame which leaves the mushrikeen free to travel without worrying about the believers attacking them in anyway, what they do is something else. Importantly as well the god tells us this

52 O you who have believed do not tuhilluu the sha'aair of the god nor the shahr haraam nor the...

This is another command showing the importance, according to our Creator, of the shahr haraam so it has nothing to with 'sacred' and idolization, I seek refuge with the god from shirk.

I hope from the god's verses you understand what hurum stands for now. Our debate is only whether does the word 'shahr' mean 'month' (something arbitrary) or ' full moon'.

Here is my last question to all who share your view on this point if any can answer CLEARLY, it's really important to me.

As a new muslim, I am faced, during the study of the god's book, with the issue of whether shahr means full moon or month. When I first was made aware that shahr had the meaning of full moon I was astounded and it automatically cleared up my confusions with verse 2185 when it's translated using 'month' with the words (new crescent of ) added to the verse. Then I realized that if we don't take the meaning of ramadan and take it as a meaningless name then how on earth would I know when it is without referring to the arab sunni calendar? I've already been duped by them so how can I trust them on anything relating to the god's message? Without their calendar then that would mean that the god's book is not complete on it's own nor provides a clarification for everything. That would be a big blow to belief itself. Or am I to make up my own calendar, still it must be based on the god's message.

So now I am asking all of you, if I take shahr to be 'month' in 2185 1. how do I know what that month is without referring to tainted outside sources? 2. how do I know when that month is without referring to tainted outside sources?

My only conditions for the answers I am seeking is that it should be based on the god's book alone without distorting any meanings and that the answer wouldn't violate the 4 hurum.

Umm Tariq

Ahmad_Bilal

Salaam Ahmad

Lets not waste time on nonsense talk. If this is how you see a blind person's situation that "There's no way he could physically do this. If his skin spoke out about it, it would testify for him that the man was blind" then it?s your understanding and you have your way but don't impose it on others.

I understand that a blind person is as much part of the deen as sighted ones, and the Moon is not an object of worship that had to be sighted to qualify fasting a path to muta'qeen. It?s an insult to an intelligent blind Muslim that he/she is exempt from fasting. This is common sense, this is my understanding and a blind person, by being present in the month of fasting, is amongst those who witnessed, unless he is on a journey or sick. I can't make it simpler then this.
If you have made up your mind that you would start your fasting according to Ayman's theroy, where by hook or by crook you would make sure that the month of fasting falls in the summer, even by skipping the 13th moon, as if one can skip time by that, ;then good luck. You are not answerable to me; we are all answerable to our creator. That is certainly not my deen

peace

Peace Farida,

You are missing the whole concept of the fast. It says abstaining is required for those who witness/sight it, but it doesn't say that blind people can't abstain as well if they choose to... If a blind person hears from friends about the sighting of "shahru ramadhan" and they choose to abstain, who's preventing them? They can do so if they choose. But since they did/can not sight/witness it for themselves, it is not required. That's according to the reading... If the scripture was saying that EVERYONE PRESENT/LIVING is to fast the period, then this would also apply to non-muslims, since they are also "present" during this period. Why isn't it interpreted in that light? Do you not understand? The scripture sets a distinction between those who "WITNESS/SIGHT" the "shahru ramadhan" and those who don't, and this is clearly given in the reading. Who is a better witness than The God Himself? Surely, He has prepared us a book fully detailed, explaining all things. A blind person can be a believer in The God and in the message, so he is definately a follower of the system - not being able to sight the moon doesn't make a person an "unbeliever", does it?

Here's a question Is a newborn baby, who is also "present"/living during the shahru ramadhan, exempt from the fast, or are we to starve the child because the period has come?

Peace,

Ahmad

Soof

Peace

Is anyone actually gaining any further insight into fasting or are people just growing more and more adamant in their own views on the Qur'an? What a tiresome exercise!

Peace

Umm_Tariq

Peace all,

Who is "they"? I am just one person trying to find the truth for myself by participating in a forum discussion with others. I am trying to listen to all the views and follow the best. Instead of being personal, we should focus on the facts backed by evidences to arrive at the truth.

Truthseeker 11, my sentiments exactly. That's all I am looking for as well and I guess we have to exhibit patience when we don't get that maashaa'a Allah.

To Farida,

"Arabic is not my native language, I depend on the translations available, and I have explained in my post above to Ahmad how I understand 2185, if you like you can educate me on that as well."

I am not sure which response you are talking about in particular, if you can paste it to me or give the link I will look at it. However do you understand what I showed you about the use of shaheda in the reading? Others have made issue with you about not seeing this difference, is it clear from the reading and is it possible or just to ignore it?

"if your contention is how would a blind person 'see' the full moon, they can't, so the conclusion is that they are exempted some how and you have a problem with that, well how do they witness a 'month' which is an abstraction? Wouldn't a blind person have to rely on someone telling them that the month is now here start fasting because from what I can tell, correct me if I am wrong, you still agree that something, the new moon, has be seen to know that the month has started. If not, a blind person, whether it's full moon or month, has to rely on others to tell them. Just my observation.
Also if we take witness as you do in this case, then technically, NOBODY knows whether they will 'witness' the whole month in advance i.e. death. Death is the opposite of the type of witnessing that you want to use. This is what really made this 'month' issue not make sense to me. If the month still has the 'new moon' as a marker it has begun, I may be present (i.e. alive) to witness that but that's still only one day, what if I die the next day then technically I didn't witness the 'month' the time period which this word implies because I died but I only witnessed the starting day. How do you reconcile that? If a person dies thereafter, then witnessing the beginning of this 'month', the first night of the new moon, isn't any different from witnessing the 'full moon' but the issue of dying doesn't come up. Or do you have some other way of knowing for sure the beginning of this 'month'?"

Can you please answer my questions here directly pertaining to the blind and about the issue of death. As a simple comparision I see that you view ramadan as a name (but I'm not really sure how you know when it is, I asked that in my other post) and you still need to 'witness' a particular phase of the moon to know it has begun. Taking shahr as full moon which needs to be witnessed and ramadan as a common word still produces the same results in reference to the blind to me. I just want clear answers to my questions.

"To me seeing moon physically by each and everyone is not a requirement as long as it?s been acknowledged that the moon been sighted as a mark for the start of the month."

The first part is correct since the verse, the god, stipulates so whoever 'minkum' (from amongst you) witnesses it, but your last inclusion of 'being acknowledged' is not included in the verse. ???

Umm Tariq

farida

Peace Farida,

You are missing the whole concept of the fast. It says abstaining is required for those who witness/sight it, but it doesn't say that blind people can't abstain as well if they choose to... If a blind person hears from friends about the sighting of "shahru ramadhan" and they choose to abstain, who's preventing them? They can do so if they choose. But since they did/can not sight/witness it for themselves, it is not required. That's according to the reading... If the scripture was saying that EVERYONE PRESENT/LIVING is to fast the period, then this would also apply to non-muslims, since they are also "present" during this period. Why isn't it interpreted in that light? Do you not understand? The scripture sets a distinction between those who "WITNESS/SIGHT" the "shahru ramadhan" and those who don't, and this is clearly given in the reading. Who is a better witness than The God Himself? Surely, He has prepared us a book fully detailed, explaining all things. A blind person can be a believer in The God and in the message, so he is definately a follower of the system - not being able to sight the moon doesn't make a person an "unbeliever", does it?

Here's a question Is a newborn baby, who is also "present"/living during the shahru ramadhan, exempt from the fast, or are we to starve the child because the period has come?

Peace,

Ahmad

Salaam
Your go on to insist that a blind person is exempt but raise a ridiculous question about new born baby.
Now let me ask same question to you let?s say; a two year old happen to be outside in the garden playing in the summer evening and notice most obvious full moon which marks start of your fasting then this two year old is obliged to fast where as a healthy grownup blind person is exempt????
Unless you lock away kids in that summers evening and make sure allow only those to come out who YOU think should witness and thus fast confused
peace

farida

Peace

Is anyone actually gaining any further insight into fasting or are people just growing more and more adamant in their own views on the Qur'an? What a tiresome exercise!

Peace

Salaam Soof
As you know I was part of this debate to find out the truth for myself and there is no doubt left for me. Howver it was my world to Umm Tariq that I would reply to her that I came back and in that process few more questions were thrown towards me and I had to reply otherwise I am out I am not debating this anymore I have better things to do.

7431 And We have set none but angels as Guardians of the Fire; and We have fixed their number only as a trial for Unbelievers,- in order that the People of the Book may arrive at certainty, and the Believers may increase in Faith,- and that no doubts may be left for the People of the Book and the Believers, and that those in whose hearts is a DISEASE and the Unbelievers may say, "What symbol doth Allah intend by this ?" Thus doth Allah leave to stray whom He pleaseth, and guide whom He pleaseth and none can know the forces of thy Lord, except He and this is no other than a warning to mankind. peace

farida

Peace all,

Truthseeker 11, my sentiments exactly. That's all I am looking for as well and I guess we have to exhibit patience when we don't get that maashaa'a Allah.

Umm Tariq

Salaam Umm Tariq
You obviously see only one side of the debate so I don?t think I would bother replying to your concern after this.
I must correct you that I do not see Ramadan is the name for our month of fasting it has now become a name, but when first time the Qur'an was revealed it was in summer evening in Northern Hemisphere and winter in Sothern hemisphere. The time continued, month of fasting has been rotating since then Please see my posts for details replies.
You have answers to all your questions in this thread and for the last time I am pasting my previous reply to you as something to reflect on.
Please make some effort and look for my replies which answers all your queries, Its our month of fasting and we have better things to do

Peace Ayman,

I did not mention any punishment and this was not part of my question it will only divert attention from my concern.
The purpose of fasting
2-183 O you who believe! Observing As-Saum (the fasting) is prescribed for you as it was prescribed for those before you, that you may become Al-Muttaqoon

Does that mean that there is no obligation on the blinds to work towards becoming Al-Muttaqoon are they born Muttaqeen due to having no sight ?
OR
There is an obligation to fast on those who have sight and who happen to witness scorching moon and thus need to become Muttaqeen? Some people associate fasting with punishment so are they in fact punished for witnessing this event ???

Thank you for explaining this; as I said in my post no 29 in this thread that
... I am pretty sure that others too have, in the past, played their part in switching the months, but that does not mean I accept Ayman's version.

I would rather keep fasting in a random month than ending up like the Christians http//www.candlegrove.com/solstice.html#turta
A linguistic puzzle.
The rebirth of the sun.
The birth of the Son.
Christmas was transplanted onto the winter solstice, some 1,600 years ago, centuries before the English language emerged from its Germanic roots. Is that why we came to express these two ideas in words that sound so similar?

If what you say is meant by the surah 1712... surely in the Dome of the Rock sits Makaam-e- Ibrahim and the passage of light over the rock should confirm this . I have watched a programme about rays from the sun falling on those rocks.. Do You have any evidence that the rocks in the Dome of the Rock are aligned with the solstices and equinoxes, I think this could be the way to solve this puzzle as
An utterly astounding array of ancient cultures built their greatest architectures -- tombs, temples, cairns and sacred observatories -- so that they aligned with the solstices and equinoxes. Many of us know that Stonehenge is a perfect marker of both solstices
http//www.candlegrove.com/solstice.html#turta

peace

Tlepsh