Hot/"ramadan" Answer

Umm_Tariq

Peace Nun,

Here is where I explained about what is meant by 4 hurum

"I have 2 more points. You bolded when I was quoting YOUR question about '4 sacred full moons', I do not agree that the word 'hurum' equates to 'sacred' which to me has religious baggage attached to it. Here's how the god explains what He means by 4 (arba'a) hurum

936 Verily the count of the shuhur with the god is twelve sharan in the book/ decree of the god the time He created the skies and the earth from them are arba'a hurum. That is the straight/ valuable obligation so do not oppress/ wrong yourselves within/ during them...

2217 They are asking you about the shahr haraam fighting therein. Say fighting therein is kabeer...

595 O you who have believed do not kill the game while you are hurum

92 So travel through the earth arba'a ashhur and know that you cannot outstrip/ escape the god...

95 So when the ashhur hurum have passed then fight the mushrikeen wherever you find them...

In 936, 2217 and 595 the God is telling us what not to do during these 4 hurum which is why they are described as hurum. In 92 one may wonder about why 4 ashhur, what's the significance so in 95 the god is confirming that these are the ashhur hurum in which, by 2217, the believers are discouraged from fighting within this time frame which leaves the mushrikeen free to travel without worrying about the believers attacking them in anyway, what they do is something else. Importantly as well the god tells us this

52 O you who have believed do not tuhilluu the sha'aair of the god nor the shahr haraam nor the...

This is another command showing the importance, according to our Creator, of the shahr haraam so it has nothing to with 'sacred' and idolization, I seek refuge with the god from shirk.

I hope from the god's verses you understand what hurum stands for now. Our debate is only whether does the word 'shahr' mean 'month' (something arbitrary) or ' full moon'. "

I had also made it very clear and you see it as well that when we say 'shahr' is 'full moon' then we mean in the sense of it being a MARKER to start and end whatever particular count it is, the period of time BETWEEN, 2,3 or 4 full moons, that's all. Because of the way shaheda is used in verse 2185, and I posted to Farida it's different usages in the reading, that is one point for me that shahr should be full moon, something that can be witnessed in seeing and not month which cannot. I am sure everyone is agreeing that this verse itself doesn't mention witnessing the hilal to know the beginning of this particular month which is why those words are added in translations who take shahr as month. That's another strike against the 'month' translation for me.

Your logic is this

"Menstruating women depending on date of divorce 3 cycles vary from 2 ? 3 months.
Women not menstruating wait maximum 3 months which covers 3 cycles."

What I am saying is that keeping with the CONSISTENCY of the god's verses and ACCURACY and PRECISION, the menstruating women are using their cycles as a MARKER and not the time it lasts itself since it only lasts from 3 to 7 or 10 days on average for different women. If they did, and I mentioned this before, they would be starting and stopping during this count and that makes no sense and everyone knows that that's not what's intended. It's intended to be a MARKER to start and end the total count, the total time period of waiting.
SO...
I saw the CONSISTENCY in taking shahr as 'full moon' even in these verses pertaining to divorce, in 654, since it can ALSO be used as a MARKER. It would be understood, like in the case of the cycles, that you use the full moon as a SURE MARKER to start and end the full waiting.

You still didn't answer WHY should the non-menstruating AUTOMATICALLY, if you take shahr to be month, wait for 3 months max? As opposed to the minimum case illustrated by the verse for menstruating women. Have you sorted out why this discrepancy whereas if we use 'full moon' for 'shahr' the two verses EQUAL in the minimum count. I am convinced by such consistency.

Remember, you are using 'month' in all of your translations and what that means to you and I am using 'full moon'. Our COUNTS will undoubtedly differ so I asked for this discussion so that I can see the perspective of one who uses 'month', how the verses pan out, compared to using full moon and I thank you for this discussion. My conclusion stays so far that full moon is the most accurate translation for 'shahr' in these verses and it keeps consistency when the verses are put next to each other. Here are just 3 examples of why I believe in the consistency of the god's verses and why I can't accept 'month' for 'shahr', too many more questions arise that aren't answered by the book.

I was looking for why the god uses 'ikhwa' in this verse

4910 Verily the believers are 'ikhwa'...

I found this verse

4176 ...and if they were 'ikhwa' men and women...

Since I know that the god's verses explain themselves and each other I believe that I found my answer. When He used ikhwa referring to believers, clearly believers include men and women, 4176 seems to show that this form of the word refers to men and women so alhamdulillah, CLEAR and PRECISE.

What does 'bayt' mean according to the reading?

2125 And when we made the bayt a mathaaba for the people and security...

This I see as another style in the reading where a word and it's meaning are actually together in the same verse or at least clearly alluded to. Look up the definition of 'mathaaba' and that's basically what a bayt is in the least. CLEAR and PRECISE.

I come to the issue of fasting 'shahr ramadan' and we have

2185 shahr ramadan which was sent down therein the reading...

442-3 And by the clear book.-- Verily we have sent it down in a blessed night (laylah mubaarakah)...

971,5 Verily we have sent it down in/within the night of al-qadr ...-- peace it is until the beginning/ start of the dawn.

Hmmm. I look at these verses and I see, related to the sending down, shahr ramadan, blessed night, night of al-qadr. Night is no mistaking it. I believe the god is consistent and precise so if shahr means full moon, this is all equal since we know that a full moon is during the night and the fast begins at fajr as well. The god made reference to peace until the start of fajr. These are enough signs for me to AT LEAST look into the meaning of full moon as opposed to month. If we use month in 2185 then consistency and preciseness goes away. If month was correct, then to keep consistency, the other verses should have said something like 'a night amongst nights' or something related. The subject of these 3 verses is the same so how can they not be consistent??? Do you see CLEAR and PRECISE here, I do?

Do you see my point here? This is one of the basis that I go by in trying to understand the god's message. The god has described His book as consistent so I definitely can't go against that. This is how I understand doing 'tarteel' of the verses, arranging similar verses by word, topic, phrase etc.

I can't be any more clear than this. This discussion has been positive and after all you presented this is why, for now, I still will stick to the conclusion of full moon for shahr. If you can prove that the reading isn't consistent...don't know about that one.

Sincerely,
Umm Tariq

Umm_Tariq

Peace all,

Here's another verse using 'shaheda', 'witness' in the present tense without 'alaa' (against/ upon) or 'anna' (that)

242 ...and let a taa'ifah (party/ group) of the believers 'witness' their punishment.

It's clearly also understood here, I hope so anyway, that witness here means to SEE their punishment. We would 'hear' it too, at least at the time it's happening, but if someone is not seeing but only hearing it, how can they be sure, without looking, that it was someone being punished for zinaa and not just someone in pain after an accident or whatever we can think of.

Also, comparing to the other verses mentioned earlier, the examples in the verses are clearly about seeing something as well.

Umm Tariq

unknownuser

Peace Umm Tarig,

I had also made it very clear and you see it as well that when we say 'shahr' is 'full moon' then we mean in the sense of it being a MARKER to start and end whatever particular count it is, the period of time BETWEEN, 2,3 or 4 full moons, that's all.

Yes you made it clear -- markers need start and an end that is called a MONTH!

Dictionary
month

n.

A unit of time corresponding approximately to one cycle of the moon's phases

full moon
n.

The moon when it is visible as a fully illuminated disk.

http//jeffreykishner.com/images/full_moon_large.jpg

Please tell us what is restricted about that picture?

unknownuser

Here's another verse using 'shaheda', 'witness' in the present tense without 'alaa' (against/ upon) or 'anna' (that)

242 ...and let a taa'ifah (party/ group) of the believers 'witness' their punishment.

It's clearly also understood here, I hope so anyway, that witness here means to SEE their punishment.

Lets continue reading...

248 But it shall avert the punishment from her, if she bears "witness" four times by Allah, that he is telling a lie.

What did she SEE?

Umm_Tariq

Peace Nun,

Your right, another example of the word shaheda being used, thanks, but you are missing the key word in that verse

And it will avert the punishment from her that she 'bears witness' four testimonies by Allah THAT indeed he is of the liars. 248 The part in arabic is "...an tashhada arba'a shahaadaat billah ANNAHU la minal kaathebeen." I gave examples of this which makes the meaning in the sense of 'bearing witness' that something... The ANNA, that, goes with shaheda.

Peace Umm Tarig,

Yes you made it clear -- markers need start and an end that is called a MONTH!

We look at that MARKER as the full moon, something apparent, obvious, easily seen.

Dictionary
month

n.

A unit of time corresponding approximately to one cycle of the moon's phases

Yes, evidently not a set 'unit of time', they don't even acknowledge a particular number of days since it can vary. Question still remains for you to prove how to 'witness' a month, with the way witness is used in the reading consistently, not mixing it's usages, considering no one knows if they will be alive the whole month to really say that they have witnessed it for sure? That also leaves for you, how do you know when it begins? If you say new crescent moon, most people don't get to witness that, way less than those who can witness a full moon, even when not looking for it. Also, ahillah, is not mentioned in this verse and I don't believe we can make such additions and then say that this is from the god. So when does this month begin?

Please tell us what is restricted about that picture?

I brought the verses about hurum previously and we already ascertained that those particular full moons are markers and the time in between is what is restricted. Since the god didn't give us in the reading a full calendar with names and all, then there must be other indications of how to ascertain these times still from the book itself not from some unknown people.

ayman

Peace Nun, everyone,

This is simple logic.
Menstruating women depending on date of divorce 3 cycles vary from 2 ? 3 months.
Women not menstruating wait maximum 3 months which covers 3 cycles.

Your interpretation of "months" is clearly creating an inconsistency in the command of the god (whatever your haphazard month means since you haven't said what a month is).

Example; a divorced woman is having menstrual issues, irregular timings...
What should she do?

Go outside each night or day look to see if there is a full moon
Wait 3 months

She would do the same thing that she does when she is counting her menstruations. Here are the choices

Stay in the bathroom all night and day and look to see if there is blood.
Wait 3 months.
None of the above. She actually counts three menstruation events in the same exact way as counting three full-moons events.

Clearly, 3 is the only correct answer.

Explain what restricted full moon is...
Full moon July 18 ? there is no fighting that day, right?

Who said anything about no fighting? See 2217.

You guys keep referring ?full moon? yet a time frame of a month is in all the posts.
1 2 3 4 restricted full moons ? four full moons (i.e. 4 different dates) or time frame = 3 months?
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 ? twelve full moons (dates) or time frame = 11 months?

Why don't you actually count 12 of your "months" every year as per 936? The only way you can do it and maintain the timing in sync with the seasons is if "shahr" is "full-moon". There is no way around it. Here is the count of the full moons from 2005 to 2010 (I can go as far in the past or in the future as you want)

2005 Summer Solstice

JUNE 22, 2005 (scorching full moon)
JULY 21, 2005
AUG 19, 2005
SEPT 18, 2005
OCT 17, 2005
NOV 16, 2005
DEC 15, 2005
JAN 14, 2006
FEB 13, 2006
MAR 14, 2006
APR 13, 2006
MAY 13, 2006
JUNE 11, 2006 (Skip as per 936)
2006 Summer Solstice
JULY 10, 2006 (scorching full moon)
AUG 9, 2006
SEP 7, 2006
OCT 7, 2006
NOV 5, 2006
DEC 5, 2006
JAN 3, 2007
FEB 2, 2007
MAR 3, 2007
APR 2, 2007
MAY 2, 2007
JUNE 1, 2007
Summer Solstice 2007
JUNE 30, 2007 (scorching full moon 2007)
JULY 30, 2007
AUG 28, 2007
SEPT 26, 2007
OCT 26, 2007
NOV 24, 2007
DEC 24, 2007
JAN 22, 2008
FEB 21, 2008
MAR 21, 2008
APR 20, 2008
MAY 20, 2008
JUNE 18, 2008 (Skip as per 936)
Summer Solstice 2008
JULY 17, 2008 (scorching full moon 200
AUG 16, 2008
SEPT 15, 2008
OCT 14, 2008
NOV 13, 2008
DEC 12, 2008
JAN 11, 2009
FEB 9, 2009
MAR 11, 2009
APR 9, 2009
MAY 9, 2009
JUNE 7, 2009
Summer Solstice 2009
JULY 6, 2009 (scorching full moon 2009)
AUG 6, 2009
SEPT 4, 2009
OCT 4, 2009
NOV 2, 2009
DEC 2, 2009
DEC 31, 2009
JAN 30, 2010
FEB 28, 2010
MAR 30, 2010
APR 28, 2010
MAY 27, 2010
Summer Solstice 2010
JUN 25, 2010 (scorching full moon 2010)

Now let's see you count EXACTLY 12 months every single solar year (936) according to whatever your definition of "month" is and automatically sync the timing with the seasons.

Peace,

Ayman

belH

Who said anything about no fighting? See 2217.

2217 is a fight to defend yourself, but 9-81 is an offinsive fight; thus no fight in the 4 restricted month unless for self defense purpose.

JUNE 11, 2006 (Skip as per 936)
JUNE 18, 2008 (Skip as per 936)

rotfl
You are a Cheater; do you thing God made a mistake and you are fixing by skiping? There is NO Solar Year, otherwise you will have to Cheat ;D

Now let's see you count EXACTLY 12 months every single solar year (936) according to whatever your definition of "month" is and automatically sync the timing with the seasons.

There is No Solar Year per Quran; IT IS A LUNAR YEAR brickwall

unknownuser

Peace Umm Tariq,

We look at that MARKER as the full moon, something apparent, obvious, easily seen.

As explained the moon is full momentarily at a specific time and looks full on different days with variance of .3 % lunminance. NOT easy.

Question still remains for you to prove how to 'witness' a month, with the way witness is used in the reading consistently, not mixing it's usages, considering no one knows if they will be alive the whole month to really say that they have witnessed it for sure?

2185 ...so who witnessed from you the month, so he should fast it

Who testifies/makes a conscious intention to fast the month, so he should fast it.

5111 ...they said "We believe and witness/testify with that we truly (are) submitters."

So when does this month begin?

2185 ...and who was sick or on (a) journey, so numbered/counted from other days.

Fasting is during days (dawn to sunset)

It does not say to fast a full moon which lasts a moment during days and nights.

I'm still researching the exact day to start.

unknownuser

Peace Ayman,

She would do the same thing that she does when she is counting her menstruations. Here are the choices

Stay in the bathroom all night and day and look to see if there is blood.
Wait 3 months.
None of the above. She actually counts three menstruation events in the same exact way as counting three full-moons events.

Clearly, 3 is the only correct answer.

Clearly you do not know about irregular menstruations and basic women's issues.

How can she count 3 menstruation events if she is having menstruation problems?

654 And those who became infertile from the menstruation from your women, if you became doubtful/suspicious, so their term/count (is) three months...

http//www.targetwoman.com/articles/irregular-menstrual-cycle.html

Typically a menstrual cycle ranges anywhere from 21 ? 35 days. Irregular menstrual cycle is a common complaint with about 20% of the women. Irregularity of menses can be either of short term or long term irregularity.

In rare cases, it can be as long as 40 days. Even menopause varies from woman to woman. For some, menopause doesn?t occur until they reach sixties.

Here is the count of the full moons from 2005 to 2010 (I can go as far in the past or in the future as you want)

2005 Summer Solstice

JUNE 22, 2005 (scorching full moon)
JULY 21, 2005
AUG 19, 2005
SEPT 18, 2005
OCT 17, 2005
NOV 16, 2005
DEC 15, 2005
JAN 14, 2006
FEB 13, 2006
MAR 14, 2006
APR 13, 2006
MAY 13, 2006
JUNE 11, 2006 (Skip as per 936)
2006 Summer Solstice
JULY 10, 2006 (scorching full moon)
AUG 9, 2006
SEP 7, 2006
OCT 7, 2006
NOV 5, 2006
DEC 5, 2006
JAN 3, 2007
FEB 2, 2007
MAR 3, 2007
APR 2, 2007
MAY 2, 2007
JUNE 1, 2007
Summer Solstice 2007
JUNE 30, 2007 (scorching full moon 2007)

Now let's see you count EXACTLY 12 months every single solar year (936) according to whatever your definition of "month" is and automatically sync the timing with the seasons.

1 ? 12 lunar cycle x 11 = 324.83649 days

How can you obliterate a whole month one year and not next year ? what happens to the time?

937 But the postponement an increase in the disbelief, those who disbelieved become misguided with it, they permit it a year and they forbid it a year, to agree to (the) term God prohibited...

The twelve months are continuous; no skipping or adding.

1 lunar month = 0.080852076 solar years
12 lunar month = 0.970224912 solar years

365.242199 x 19 solar years = 6 939.60178
29.53058867 x 235 lunar months = 6 939.68834

As stated earlier I'm working on it.

Peace

ayman

Peace Nun,

Clearly you do not know about irregular menstruations and basic women's issues.

Clearly you are bringing irrelevant issues to evade answering the reason for your inconsitancy.

How can she count 3 menstruation events if she is having menstruation problems?
654 And those who became infertile from the menstruation from your women, if you became doubtful/suspicious, so their term/count (is) three months...

654 is not about your irrelevant menstruation problems. It is about women who don't have menstruations all together. Hence, they have "given up" on menstruations. As I said, you are evading the issue by bringing up an irrelevant point.

1 ? 12 lunar cycle x 11 = 324.83649 days
How can you obliterate a whole month one year and not next year ? what happens to the time?

It is not my problem that you can't understand that we are counting events and not a time period.

The god told us that the "count"/"3idat" is 12 "shahr" (936) in a solar year (1712). The word "count"/"3idat" is different than "3adad"/number and the god doesn't use words haphazardly. The count is about counting. So we count exactly 12 each year and we skip counting the occasional 13th full-moon. This is what 936 is clearly saying, otherwise the god would have said the number/"3adad" is 12 and that the year is lunar.

The twelve months are continuous; no skipping or adding.

If they are continuous as you claim then they are in the billions since a few billion years have passed since the god created the heavens and the earth.

1 lunar month = 0.080852076 solar years
12 lunar month = 0.970224912 solar years
365.242199 x 19 solar years = 6 939.60178
29.53058867 x 235 lunar months = 6 939.68834

12/0.970224912 = 12.36826621 months NOT 12

So you are violating 1236-37 and instead of counting 12 as I am doing as per the god's command (which is the ONLY possible way) you are counting 12.36826621. This way you would allow the hunting restrictions to be violated. You don't believe in the hunting restrictions or in the god when he tells you that you have to count EXACTLY 12 "shahr" every year and not 12.36826621. The "restricted months" according to you will be violated every single year and not just every other year like the pagans did.

Peace,

Ayman

unknownuser

Peace Ayman,

Clearly you are bringing irrelevant issues to evade answering the reason for your inconsitancy.

654 is not about your irrelevant menstruation problems. It is about women who don't have menstruations all together. Hence, they have "given up" on menstruations. As I said, you are evading the issue by bringing up an irrelevant point.

NO, you are clearly evading the issue and not reading the verse correctly.

This same twisting fanatics use to condone sex with 9 year olds.

http//www.wikiislam.com/wiki/Pedophilia_in_the_Qur'an

654 And those who became despaired from the menstruation from your women, if you became doubtful/suspicious, so their term (is) three months, and those who did not menstruate, and of the pregnant, their term/time (is) that they give birth...

The verse covers

Those with irregular cycles, ?if you became doubtful/suspicious?
Those who do not menstruate (menopause)
Pregnant women

20% of women have irregular menstrual timing issues and are told to wait 3 months

It is not my problem that you can't understand that we are counting events and not a time period.

O? I see full moons are individual events -- what is the word for month or is there such a word in Quran?

2217 They ask you about the full moon the restricted, fighting in it...

Explain how one can fight/not fight in ?an event? of ONE full moon? How much time is that?

584 And he who finds not must fast two successive full moons...

Two successive full moon ?events? is exactly 1 lunar cycle 29.53059 days, right?

If they are continuous as you claim then they are in the billions since a few billion years have passed since the god created the heavens and the earth.

Yes a continuous count of 12...

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12...

NOT

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 SKIP 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12

12/0.970224912 = 12.36826621 months NOT 12

So you are violating 1236-37 and instead of counting 12 as I am doing as per the god's command (which is the ONLY possible way) you are counting 12.36826621.

You are cheating by dropping a month.

Likewise one can also cheat by dropping .36826621

This way you would allow the hunting restrictions to be violated. You don't believe in the hunting restrictions or in the god when he tells you that you have to count EXACTLY 12 "shahr" every year and not 12.36826621. The "restricted months" according to you will be violated every single year and not just every other year like the pagans did.

52 ...when you have completed the Hajj, you are free to hunt.

I believe restriction on hunting is to preserve the game in the area during Hajj -- too many people.

Where does it say 12 months has to equal exactly a solar year?

1 lunar cycle = 29.53059 days
1 solar year = 365.242199 days

How can we have .242199 days?

I'm still researching although ruled out full moon ? it?s nonsensical.

Peace

ayman

Peace Nun,

NO, you are clearly evading the issue and not reading the verse correctly.
This same twisting fanatics use to condone sex with 9 year olds.
http//www.wikiislam.com/wiki/Pedophilia_in_the_Qur'an

It is again not my problem that you and the Christian missionaries that you are trying to apologize to are unable to read that the whole passage is talking about "nisa'a" which means women not girls. You are the only one on this thread who is talking about sex with a 9 year old. Where did you get such a perverted idea? You are obviously spending too much time reading baseless Christian missionary propaganda and it is clearly affecting your judgment. You are sounding just as pathetic and apolegetic as Sunnis who can't read the word "nisaa" because of their Hadiths which promote pedophilia.

654 And those who became despaired from the menstruation from your women, if you became doubtful/suspicious, so their term (is) three months, and those who did not menstruate, and of the pregnant, their term/time (is) that they give birth...
The verse covers

Those with irregular cycles, ?if you became doubtful/suspicious?

False. Those who have irregular cycles didn't "despair from the menstruation". They still get them no matter how irregular. When they stop getting them completely then they have despaired from getting them (gave up).

Also, besides being irrelevant since the passage is talking about "women", a 9 year old is far from "despaired". She still has a life full of menstruations to look forward to.

Those who do not menstruate (menopause)

Yes those women are the ones who have despaired of menstruations. Last I checked no woman I know ever went through menopause and then sometime later suddenly restarted to menstruate. So she has truly "despaired" given up on menstruations.

Also, the women who have some reproductive problem and therefore never menstruated do not menstruate.

Pregnant women

Last I checked no woman I know got pregnant and despaired of menstruation ever again because she was pregnant.

20% of women have irregular menstrual timing issues and are told to wait 3 months

This is your nonsensical interpretation based on your lack of understanding of the word "despaired" and preconceptions from the Hadiths.

Irregular or not irregular they are told to wait for 3 menstruations. The word "irregular" is no where to be found in any of the passages that discuss this subject. Your apolegetic attitude towards the great reading is based entirely on Sunni preconceptions from Hadiths.

O? I see full moons are individual events -- what is the word for month or is there such a word in Quran?

There is no word for "month" in the great reading. Pre-quranic inscriptions often use the words "warkh" or "yarkh" as meaning "month". For example, see "yarkh" used below

http//www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/raqush.html

2217 They ask you about the full moon the restricted, fighting in it...

Explain how one can fight/not fight in ?an event? of ONE full moon? How much time is that?

2217 clearly says that this event has no bearing on stopping fighting or continuing to fight.

584 And he who finds not must fast two successive full moons...
Two successive full moon ?events? is exactly 1 lunar cycle 29.53059 days, right?

You are right. Full moons occur on average every 29.53059 day. So full-moon to full-moon is either going to be 29 or 30 days (see my table above).

Yes a continuous count of 12...
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12...
NOT
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 SKIP 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12

This is false. You still can't understand the difference between count and number in the great reading. There is no such thing as a continuous count of 12. In order for you to count, you have to have some set that you are counting out of. This set is the solar year. The lunar cycle is not 12 units of anything. So in a solar year as a set that you are counting out of (not absolute number), it goes like this

SUMMER SOLSTICE 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 (SKIP) SUMMER SOLSTICE 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 SUMMER SOLSTICE...

This naturally, automatically and effortlessly adjusts the lunar cycle to make it in sync with the seasons so that hunting restrictions are not violated.

You are cheating by dropping a month.
Likewise one can also cheat by dropping .36826621

I am not cheating. I am putting my faith in the god and listening to his advice to count EXACTLY 12 full-moons in a solar year (even when I see 13).

You can try to drop .36826621 if you want and count only 12 "months" as the god told you. However, you will end up going out of sync with the lunar cycle and now your lunar cycle will be completely disconnected from your "months". You can only count in whole integer units if you want to maintain both the lunar and solar cycles in sync. This is indisputable.

52 ...when you have completed the Hajj, you are free to hunt.

The word "hajj" doesn't occur in 52. You are conjuring up your own scripture to justify your baseless position.

I believe restriction on hunting is to preserve the game in the area during Hajj -- too many people.

Another baseless belief.

Where does it say 12 months has to equal exactly a solar year?

Months are not even mentioned in the great reading, let alone say that they are equal anything.

1 lunar cycle = 29.53059 days
1 solar year = 365.242199 days
How can we have .242199 days?

We can't. This is why the western solar calendar has a leap year every four years. Otherwise the seasons would start to slowly shift.

On the other hand 1712 clearly tells us that the counting of the years is based on the time between the solstices. This is the perfect method of counting years and it doesn't require leap years or any other manmade devices.

I'm still researching although ruled out full moon ? it?s nonsensical.

Keep researching and you will see that it is not.

Peace,

Ayman

unknownuser

Peace Ayman,

Irregular or not irregular they are told to wait for 3 menstruations. The word "irregular" is no where to be found in any of the passages that discuss this subject. Your apolegetic attitude towards the great reading is based entirely on Sunni preconceptions from Hadiths.

Please answer simple questions without inferring about my preconceptions.

654 And those who became despaired from the menstruation from your women, if you became doubtful/suspicious, so their term (is) three months, and those who did not menstruate

HOW CAN A WOMAN WITH IRREGULAR/MISSED MENTRUATIONS KNOW TO WAIT 3 MENTRUATIONS?

Mentruations are not consistent like clocks or full moons and vary depending on the individual.

Secondary amenorrhea. no periods for three to six months or longer.

http//www.mayoclinic.com/health/amenorrhea/DS00581/DSECTION=causes

Secondary amenorrhea is much more common than primary amenorrhea. Many possible causes of secondary amenorrhea exist

Breast-feeding.
Stress.
Illness.
Hormonal imbalance.
Low body weight.
Excessive exercise.
Thyroid malfunction.
Pituitary tumor.
Premature menopause.

Therefore -- they wait 3 months!

2217 clearly says that this event has no bearing on stopping fighting or continuing to fight.

What does it say then, what's the event, and how long does it last, a full moon? Translate for us...

2217 They ask you about the full moon the restricted, fighting in it, say "Fighting/killing in it...

2194 The full moon, the restricted, with the full moon, the restricted, and the God's ordered prohibitions...

So full-moon to full-moon is either going to be 29 or 30 days (see my table above).

So that makes all verses which say 4 full moons really 3 months and 1 full moon 1 day.

The word "hajj" doesn't occur in 52. You are conjuring up your own scripture to justify your baseless position.

Another baseless belief.

Like full moon?

52 But when you finish the pilgramage (lets call it the "event&quot, you may hunt

It's not baseless and has to do with logistics, 100s of thousands of people will eat every animal in the visinity.

Keep researching and you will see that it is not.

I will?

Peace

ayman

Peace Nun,

Please answer simple questions without inferring about my preconceptions.

Your preconceptions are what is driving you. Why did you mention 9 year old girls as opposed to 10 or 11? It is called preconceptions. Why can't you get your ego to admit to the indisputable fact that "nisa'a" means women and not girls? Preconceptions.

654 And those who became despaired from the menstruation from your women, if you became doubtful/suspicious, so their term (is) three months, and those who did not menstruate
HOW CAN A WOMAN WITH IRREGULAR/MISSED MENTRUATIONS KNOW TO WAIT 3 MENTRUATIONS?
Mentruations are not consistent like clocks or full moons and vary depending on the individual.
Secondary amenorrhea. no periods for three to six months or longer.
http//www.mayoclinic.com/health/amenorrhea/DS00581/DSECTION=causes
Secondary amenorrhea is much more common than primary amenorrhea. Many possible causes of secondary amenorrhea exist
Breast-feeding.
Stress.
Illness.
Hormonal imbalance.
Low body weight.
Excessive exercise.
Thyroid malfunction.
Pituitary tumor.
Premature menopause.
Therefore -- they wait 3 months!

No they don't. This is your own conjecture. The only condition for waiting three full-moons is if they despaired from menstruation. There is nothing about irregular menstrution in the passage let alone that gives them any exemption. Show me the word "irregular" in 654. So even if they get a period every three months, they still have to count them because a period every three months is not "despaired from ever mensturating again".

As for those women who never menstruated (because of a biological problem) or are pregnant, their waiting period is the gestation period.

What does it say then, what's the event, and how long does it last, a full moon? Translate for us...
2217 They ask you about the full moon the restricted, fighting in it, say "Fighting/killing in it...
2194 The full moon, the restricted, with the full moon, the restricted, and the God's ordered prohibitions...

The god tells us that we have to count 4 restricted full-moons (936). This is the same like counting menstruations. When the woman counts a menstruation she can't remarry until the three are over. How come you are smart enough to figure the waiting period according to counting the event of the menstruation but you suddenly play dumb when it comes to figuring out the restricted period according to the event of the full-moon? According to your logic, a divorcee would not marry when she gets a menstruation but she can marry between say the first and second menstruation as long as she get divorced by the second one and so on. Come on Nun, surely you are smarter than this.

So that makes all verses which say 4 full moons really 3 months and 1 full moon 1 day.

No, the full moon is a marker. It is not a continuous month or even 1 day. This is the same as three menstruations are not continuous bleeding by the woman for three months. So the restricted full moon only signals the beginning of the restricted period but the full-moon itself doesn't last the whole month. So hunting is restricted all days between it and the next restricted full moon.

Like full moon?

Blame Classical Arabic dictionaries. They clearly said that "shahr" means "full-moon" long before I was born. Maybe you think it is baseless because you believe that somehow I traveled back in time and conspired with their authors and invented this meaning.

52 But when you finish the pilgramage (lets call it the "event&quot, you may hunt
It's not baseless and has to do with logistics, 100s of thousands of people will eat every animal in the visinity.

Can you read Arabic or even a transliteration? Can you show me where the word "pilgrimage" is in 52? You are going beyond baseless. You are now inventing your own scripture that says what you like to imagine.

I will?

Yes.

Notice that you are not contesting anymore that we have to count exactly 12 full-moons (936) in a solar year (1712) to maintain the lunar cycle in sync with the seasons and not violate the hunting restrictions. It is not because you suddenly started to like me or because you want to do me a favor. It is because this amazingly simple and elegant mechanism is indisputable. The only astonishing question in my mind is how come no one thought of this before.

Peace,

Ayman

Umm_Tariq

Peace Nun,

The discussion that has ensued between me, you and Ayman has more than clarified this issue for me.

2185 ...so who witnessed from you the month, so he should fast it

Who testifies/makes a conscious intention to fast the month, so he should fast it.

5111 ...they said "We believe and witness/testify with that we truly (are) submitters."

I highlighted the key word in the verse that you bring and again, this way of using 'shaheda' is not consistent with how it's used in 2185 which is without 'that' nor 'against/upon'. Even if you are unable to read the arabic, those keys words are translated into English and this is why. The verse isn't, 'so whoever amongst you witnesses 'against/ upon' the shahr then let him fast it', NOR, 'so whoever amongst you witnesses 'that' the shahr then let him fast it'. As you see, this doesn't even make sense in English nor is it accepted since the corresponding words in arabic are not there. I gave these examples, please read them and tell me if it's allowed to interchange such verses, hence the meaning of witness?

If verses, w,y, and z used 'witness' with 'that or against' and verses t,u, and v don't, and thus they have a variance in meaning, CLEARLY, then how can you take how 'witness' is used in w, y and z and superimpose that onto t, u and v??? What you are really doing then, if you insist on looking at witness in 2185 like this, is ADDING WORDS to the god's, LAA YAJUUZ, NOT ACCEPTABLE IN THE LEAST, be warned.

Fasting is during days (dawn to sunset)

It does not say to fast a full moon which lasts a moment during days and nights.

I'm still researching the exact day to start.

This is also understood when one uses 'shahr' as 'full moon' since it's something to 'witness (see)' as a MARKER like a woman's menstruation, which is also known that you don't start and stop for the bleeding itself, but wait the whole time in between 3 menstruations.

Also, you're right, it doesn't say ONLY 'fast the 'shahr' but FIRST is the 'witnessing', 'so whoever shaheda the shahr then let him fast it'. If it only said 'fast the shahr' maybe using 'month' might have a case. However, since the 'witnessing' is mentioned, in the seeing sense (I brought my proof for this), this is the big clue for 'full moon' and against 'month'. Also, if you use, 'month', then it still needs a starting time. Most who use 'month' seem to say that the beginning is the 'new crescent', which is however not mentioned in this verse. ??? Can we just add that to the verse? Some do, I seek refuge with the god from such actions. It's also still something that needs to be 'witnessed' in the SIMPLEST sense, for those who can't calculate or don't use satellites and such. Since the god clearly says 'witness' the shahr, it must mean 'full moon', which makes sense, nothing is left out, it's a recognized arabic meaning of the word and it brings consistency in view of other verses and subjects. I am convinced walhamdulillah.

Umm Tariq

Samia

Peace truthseeker11,

I am sure Samia will give her comments and clarify this subject. Thanks to her in advance.

Salaam Tlepsh
Truthseeker is right. Adjectives in Arabic follow the noun they modify unlike Englis where they preceed it.

Tlepsh,

THis is incorrect. The root shahira means to be apparent, conspicuous, manifest, notorious notable, commonly known. The noun shahr means moon, full moon, crescent moon, or 29 Islamo-Judaic days.

The root ramada = to be constantly or intensely hot (felt internally or externally).

Haraam means forbidden, prohibited, restricted and holy.

I know that naturally you will argue me on this but I just wanted others to know that you are giving incorrect information. You can save your hands any effort if that is your intent. Secondly your defintion of shahru ramadan can be correct. But neither you nor anyone here understands Arabic grammar enough nor respects the letter of the Quran to know how some of what you claim can be understood by shahru ramadana no matter how incorrect contextually your meanings may be.

Godbless,
Anwar

Salaam Anwar
I am afraid that you too are not correct, but if we have to choose between a verbal noun and a verb as the original word/root, it will definitely be the verbal noun. Scholars of Basra have long settled this matter, arguing that the verb is dependent on time and subject (conjugation), unlike a noun/verbal noun, which is timeless and impersonal.

However, the root, literally, is three (occasionally two or four) letters that are the raw material from which new words, according to a definite pattern, can be derived such as verbs of different forms, adjectives, participles..etc. Moreover what you wrote is not a correct verb. The verb is "shahara", so no much difference between what Tlepsh or you say, since these short vowels do ot show in the root, but are just used to facilitate reading the group of three letters.

Tlepsh

Salaam Tlepsh
Truthseeker is right. Adjectives in Arabic follow the noun they modify unlike Englis where they preceed it.

Salam Samia,

Thank you for your clarification. That is right; in Arabic, the adjective follows the noun. As in ?alshahr al3eqaary?. 3eqaar defines shahr.

Here ?ramadhan? defines ?shahr?. Shahr means ?some thing obvious? and ramadhan means, ?suffering? So it is actually ?a suffering obvious thing?.

The form of ?Shahru Ramadan? is same as the form of ?Mu3allimu Saffin?

The meaning of Shahr is clear in ?alshahr al3eqaary?. I took this phrase ?alshahr al3eqaary? from one of your quotes.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

Ramadhan has two primary meanings

mourning, feeling sad, suffering, bothering, concerning2. scorching heat

Lane?s Arabic English Lexicon says.

Means I was distressed and disquieted because of the thing or I grieved for it

Means He grieve for such a one

Another question to you Samia

Alhajju ashhurun ma3lumat

Please comment.
Here ?ma3lumat? defines ?ashhur?. ?Ashhurun ma3lumat? defines ?hajj?
?Ma3lumat? is the plural of ?ma3luma?, which means peace of information. Shahr means declaration as per your definition from ?alshahr al3eqaary?. Therefore ?Alhajju ashhurun ma3lumat? means Al hajj is declarations of information. Verse 2.197 continues and says ?Thus whoever decides to take the challenge in these declarations??

..

Thank you for your valuable comments.

Samia

Salaam Tlepsh

Another question to you Samia

Alhajju ashhurun ma3lumat

Please comment.
Here ma3lumat defines ashhur. Ashhurun ma3lumat defines hajj
Ma3lumat is the plural of ma3luma, which means peace of information. Shahr means declaration as per your definition from alshahr al3eqaary. Therefore Alhajju ashhurun ma3lumat means Al hajj is declarations of information. Verse 2.197 continues and says Thus whoever decides to take the challenge in these declarations

..

Thank you for your valuable comments.

This is an interesting rendition! The only problem is that "ma3luumaat" as "informations" is a modern meaning not found in any classical dictionary. "ma3luuma" means known in a definite way; known as marked, specified; and so here it is an adjective not a noun. Thus it will be the hajj is defined/marked ashhur.
The other thing is the different plurals for shahr ashhur and shuhuur. Maybe each of the two meanings of shahr is assigned a different plural. I do not know of such a rule, but there are examples.

anthonywallace

It is not my problem that you can't understand that we are counting events and not a time period.

The god told us that the "count"/"3idat" is 12 "shahr" (936) in a solar year (1712). The word "count"/"3idat" is different than "3adad"/number and the god doesn't use words haphazardly. The count is about counting. So we count exactly 12 each year and we skip counting the occasional 13th full-moon. This is what 936 is clearly saying, otherwise the god would have said the number/"3adad" is 12 and that the year is lunar.

12/0.970224912 = 12.36826621 months NOT 12

So you are violating 1236-37 and instead of counting 12 as I am doing as per the god's command (which is the ONLY possible way) you are counting 12.36826621. This way you would allow the hunting restrictions to be violated. You don't believe in the hunting restrictions or in the god when he tells you that you have to count EXACTLY 12 "shahr" every year and not 12.36826621. The "restricted months" according to you will be violated every single year and not just every other year like the pagans did.

Peace,

Ayman

Peace Ayman

So is this how the additional month is used, by not droping the . 37 ( the . 37 is almost 50% ( nearly half a month), thus every other year it would add up to close to a month ( the additional month/ or 13 months in one year )... If I am understandin this correctly. I dont know. And how do we only count 12 months and drop the .37

And I would like some straight answers from you... And not no too long explanations...If you can, tell me what is is that you are trying to say in a couple sentances....I know we learn by reading, but I dont like reading long posts and dont be havin the paitience especially with no proofs. And bring your proofs. Gather all your evedences together. Do this for me.( quranic evedence or the previous Scripyure, or some real facts, about your claims. And we take it from there.

peace

Tlepsh

Salaam Tlepsh

This is an interesting rendition! The only problem is that "ma3luumaat" as "informations" is a modern meaning not found in any classical dictionary. "ma3luuma" means known in a definite way; known as marked, specified; and so here it is an adjective not a noun. Thus it will be the hajj is defined/marked ashhur.
The other thing is the different plurals for shahr ashhur and shuhuur. Maybe each of the two meanings of shahr is assigned a different plural. I do not know of such a rule, but there are examples.

Salam Samia,

The plurals for shahr ashhur and shuhuur

Ashhur is mentioned in verses 2.197, 2.226, 2.234, 9.2, 9.5, and 65.4

Shuhuur is mentioned only once and it is in verse 9.36.

9.36

9.36 The count of the months with God is twelve months in God?s record the day He created the heavens and the Earth; four of them are restricted. This is the correct system; so do not wrong yourselves in them; and fight those who set up partners collectively as they fight you collectively. And know that God is with the righteous.

The above translation is from Progressive Muslims.
Here "3iddat? is translated to be ?count?. Mr. Ayman translates it to be ?count? too.

In Lanes Lexicon, it is as follows

3idda = a number collected together; a number collectively. You say ?raaytu 3iddata rijalin? I saw a number of men collected together.

It is very clear that ?3iddat? when used before a plural noun such as ?rijal? or ?shuhuur? it means ?a group of? or ?a collection of? or ?a number of? not ?the count?. For example (a group / a collection / a number) of men or (a group / a collection / a number) of shuhuur.

In the above translation it says ?four of them are restricted,? God says ?minha arba3atun hurum?
Minha does not mean ?from them? but means ?from it?. ?Minha? is singular because it represents a ?collection of shuhuur? which is singular.

This ?collection of shuhuur? is the correct system (deen al-qayyim) of God and it is in his record since he created the heavens and earth. This collection (system) is composed of twelve shuhuur. Four of it are hurum (forbidden, unlawful).

The system of God is ?sunnatullah?. There is no change in sunnatullah as in 33.62.
The question is
Is the collection of shuhuur the sunnatullah composed of twelve declarations of which four is forbidden such as ?shirk?, ?killing a self unlawfully?, ?fowahish? and ?taking orphan?s money??

Please compare ?alshahr al3eqaary? to ?alshahr alharam?

Please comment. Thank you.