Hot/"ramadan" Answer
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Peace Ayman
So is this how the additional month is used, by not droping the . 37 ( the . 37 is almost 50% ( nearly half a month), thus every other year it would add up to close to a month ( the additional month/ or 13 months in one year )... If I am understandin this correctly. I dont know. And how do we only count 12 months and drop the .37
And I would like some straight answers from you... And not no too long explanations...If you can, tell me what is is that you are trying to say in a couple sentances....I know we learn by reading, but I dont like reading long posts and dont be havin the paitience especially with no proofs. And bring your proofs. Gather all your evedences together. Do this for me.( quranic evedence or the previous Scripyure, or some real facts, about your claims. And we take it from there.
peace
Salaam Anthonywallace,
You are expecting a short and precise and direct answer from someone who, along with his team is manipulating the verses of the Qur?an by ?Skiping as per 936? confused
This in an organised attempt to establish a false system where there is no obligation on anyone towards Allah. I have never heard as much nonsense as this where if it?s cloudy no one has to fast, as you missed witnessing the moon. bravo
In fact the month should not be taken into consideration as no one witnessed the full moon yay so no month if its cloudy, laugh Yet this team pretend to ask each other questions and level out all creases by saying ?that makes sense? hmm. Just go through this thread from the beginning and you will notice how it all started with Ayman proposing a system and few eloquent cronies quizzing him, soon to agree with him.
Now you see a similar team, with new identities, come to establish his deen. They have deliberately ignored solid proof from the Qur?an against their system and their last wordl is "What does Lane say about."7176 If it had been Our will, We should have elevated him with Our signs; but he inclined to the earth, and followed his own vain desires. His similitude is that of a dog if you attack him, he lolls out his tongue, or if you leave him alone, he (still) lolls out his tongue. That is the similitude of those who reject Our signs; So relate the story; perchance they may REFLECT.
peace -
Peace everyone
Following is an incomplete list of fallacies that I discovered in the above 2 posts wow giveup
Ad hominem attacking the personal instead of the argument.
Appeal to emotion where an argument is made due to the manipulation of emotions, rather than the use of valid reasoning
Wishful thinking a specific type of appeal to emotion where a decision is made according to what might be pleasing to imagine, rather than according to evidence or reason
Appeal to spite a specific type of appeal to emotion where an argument is made through exploiting people's bitterness or spite towards an opposing party
Appeal to motive where a premise is dismissed, by calling into question the motives of its proposer
Appeal to tradition where a thesis is deemed correct on the basis that it has a long-standing tradition behind it
Argumentum ad populum ("appeal to belief", "appeal to the majority", "appeal to the people" where a proposition is claimed to be true solely because many people believe it to be true
Judgmental language It employs insultive, compromettant or pejorative language to influence the recipient's judgement.
Straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.
Texas sharpshooter fallacy in which information that has no relationship is interpreted or manipulated until it appears to have meaning.
Bare assertion fallacy premise in an argument is assumed to be true purely because it says that it is true.
Ignoratio elenchi (irrelevant conclusion or irrelevant thesis)
Package-deal fallacy when two or more things have been linked together by tradition or culture are said to stay that way forever
Existential fallacy an argument has two universal premises and a particular conclusion, but the premises do not establish the truth of the conclusion
Argument from repetition (argumentum ad nauseam)
Appeal to ridicule a specific type of appeal to emotion where an argument is made by presenting the opponent's argument in a way that makes it appear ridiculous
Begging the question ("petitio principii" where the conclusion of an argument is implicitly or explicitly assumed in one of the premises
False attribution when an advocate appeals to an irrelevant, unqualified, unidentified, biased or fabricated source in support of an argument.
Moving the goalpost in which evidence presented in response to a specific claim is dismissed and some other (often greater) evidence is demanded.
Cherry picking the act of pointing at individual cases or data that seem to confirm a particular position, while ignoring a significant portion of related cases or data that may contradict that position.
Hasty generalization (fallacy of insufficient statistics, fallacy of insufficient sample, fallacy of the lonely fact, leaping to a conclusion, hasty induction, secundum quid)
Spotlight fallacy when a person uncritically assumes that all members or cases of a certain class or type are like those that receive the most attention or coverage in the media.
Thought-terminating clich? a commonly used phrase, sometimes passing as folk wisdom, used to quell cognitive dissonance.http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies
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Peace Umm Tariq,
Peace truthseeker,
It would be nice if someone can explain this from the grammatical angle, whether this 'wa' can be used as an additional description or not but I also know that even in the study of arabic grammar, there is taint (rules that don't agree with the great reading). I agree with this conclusion of yours and it makes the most sense
But this would not include women who never had menstruation (primary amenorrhea). Because of that I would tend to favor your understanding if that is grammatically possible.
Taking this verse and 2228 which are about 'divorce', 2228 covers the case for all who have a menstrual cycle, they use it to count by. I see 654 as covering those who don't have a menstrual cycle, due to pregnancy (which is understood) or otherwise, so we have the full moon event to count by or the delivery event to use as an ending. Nice and simple to me.   Let me know what you think.
Umm Tariq
Makes sense.
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Peace everyone
Following is an incomplete list of fallacies that I discovered in the above 2 posts wow giveup
Ad hominem attacking the personal instead of the argument.
Appeal to emotion where an argument is made due to the manipulation of emotions, rather than the use of valid reasoning
Wishful thinking a specific type of appeal to emotion where a decision is made according to what might be pleasing to imagine, rather than according to evidence or reason
Appeal to spite a specific type of appeal to emotion where an argument is made through exploiting people's bitterness or spite towards an opposing party
Appeal to motive where a premise is dismissed, by calling into question the motives of its proposer
Appeal to tradition where a thesis is deemed correct on the basis that it has a long-standing tradition behind it
Argumentum ad populum ("appeal to belief", "appeal to the majority", "appeal to the people" where a proposition is claimed to be true solely because many people believe it to be true
Judgmental language It employs insultive, compromettant or pejorative language to influence the recipient's judgement.
Straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.
Texas sharpshooter fallacy in which information that has no relationship is interpreted or manipulated until it appears to have meaning.
Bare assertion fallacy premise in an argument is assumed to be true purely because it says that it is true.
Ignoratio elenchi (irrelevant conclusion or irrelevant thesis)
Package-deal fallacy when two or more things have been linked together by tradition or culture are said to stay that way forever
Existential fallacy an argument has two universal premises and a particular conclusion, but the premises do not establish the truth of the conclusion
Argument from repetition (argumentum ad nauseam)
Appeal to ridicule a specific type of appeal to emotion where an argument is made by presenting the opponent's argument in a way that makes it appear ridiculous
Begging the question ("petitio principii" where the conclusion of an argument is implicitly or explicitly assumed in one of the premises
False attribution when an advocate appeals to an irrelevant, unqualified, unidentified, biased or fabricated source in support of an argument.
Moving the goalpost in which evidence presented in response to a specific claim is dismissed and some other (often greater) evidence is demanded.
Cherry picking the act of pointing at individual cases or data that seem to confirm a particular position, while ignoring a significant portion of related cases or data that may contradict that position.
Hasty generalization (fallacy of insufficient statistics, fallacy of insufficient sample, fallacy of the lonely fact, leaping to a conclusion, hasty induction, secundum quid)
Spotlight fallacy when a person uncritically assumes that all members or cases of a certain class or type are like those that receive the most attention or coverage in the media.
Thought-terminating clich? a commonly used phrase, sometimes passing as folk wisdom, used to quell cognitive dissonance.http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies
Agreed handshake
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Strive hard against those who mock & attack your deen.
peaceAre you sure they are mocking and attacking your deen nope i don?t think so i think they are trying to reach the truth and if someone is not distorting words are meaning of Quran purposely then they be considered innocent and should not be blamed.
& are you saying that you know what is in their hearts.
Only Allah knows what is in our hearts.God Bless you
handshake -
Are you sure they are mocking and attacking your deen nope i don?t think so i think they are trying to reach the truth and if someone is not distorting words are meaning of Quran purposely then they be considered innocent and should not be blamed.
& are you saying that you know what is in their hearts.
Only Allah knows what is in our hearts.God Bless you
handshakeSalaam
It would be helpful if you could summarize what truth they or you have reached from their posts?
463 These are a people whom God knows what is in their hearts, so turn away from them and advise them, and speak to their souls with a clear sayingpeace
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Salaam
It would be helpful if you could summarize what truth they or you have reached from their posts?
463 These are a people whom God knows what is in their hearts, so turn away from them and advise them, and speak to their souls with a clear sayingpeace
) I said they are trying to reach the truth, angel
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Following is an incomplete list of fallacies that I discovered in the above 2 posts wow giveup
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies
492?And whoso finds this beyond his means, he must fast for two consecutive full moons?
Ayman?s full moon calendar
11. APR 20, 2008
April 21 ? incident Mr. AMay 19, 2008 ? incident Mr. T
12. MAY 20, 2008
13. JUNE 18, 2008 (Skip as per 936)
Summer Solstice 2008- JULY 17, 2008 (scorching full moon 200
How many days does each man fast?
"The same as menstruating women!" wow giveup
http//www.thefreedictionary.com/idiocies
id?i?o?cy
n. pl. id?i?o?cies- Extreme folly or stupidity.
- A foolish or stupid utterance or deed.
- Psychology The state or condition of being an idiot; profound mental retardation.
idiocy
Noun- utter stupidity
- a foolish act or remark
bovinity
the state or quality of being like a cow or ox, especially in the sense of being dull, stolid, and slow-witted. ? bovine, adj.idiotism
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the condition of an idiot, especially an extreme degree of mental deficiency, usually a mental age of less than three or four years; idiocy.
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idiotic conduct or action, especially in a normal person. ? idiotie, adj.
moronism
the condition of being slow or mentally defici?nt. ? moronic, adj.
stultiloquence
Rare. foolish talk or babble.-Ologies & -Isms.
Noun 1. idiocy - extreme mental retardation
amentia
backwardness, mental retardation, subnormality, slowness, retardation - lack of normal development of intellectual capacitiesidiocy
noun foolishness, insanity, lunacy, tomfoolery, inanity, imbecility, senselessness, cretinism, fatuity, abject stupidity, asininity, fatuousness << OPPOSITE wisdom -
Peace Umm Tariq and Truthseeker,
Sorry you have confused me now too. confused Are you saying, as per your group 2, that 'and those who didn't/ haven't menstruated' should wait the gestation period of those who are pregnant? Maybe you made a typo? I would make
group 1 ---> wait 3 full moons 1. those who have despaired of menstruation 2. those who didn't/ haven't menstruated
Group 2 are those who are pregnant, their 'ajl', specified term til completion, is when they deliver, 'an yada'na hamlahunna'. Do we agree on this?How can those who didn't menstruate wait gestation period? They are not pregnant!
There is no typo. Those who didn't/ haven't menstruated (but didn't DESPAIR of menstruation) should wait the gestation period same as those who are actually pregnant. This is the simplest and most straight forward interpretation of 654 without having to insert punctuations that don't make sense or interpret the "wa"/and between the two categories in a strange way. Since those who "didn't menstruate" didn't despair from menstruation, then this is also the only 100% sure way. Of course, everyone knows how long the human gestation period is. Even those who are not pregnant know it. Even men ) know it.
In addition to being straight forward, this is also the only interpretation that guarantees that the waiting period command in 654 is not violated so it is nearer to "taqwa"/being careful/forethought.
Peace,
Ayman
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This is my understanding of verse 654
I think the first part is clear Those who are desperate of menustration have their 3idda three full moons. (If you are in doubt) covers those who are semi menopausal, i.e those who start to have spaced menustrations (e.g every 4 or 6 months or even more spaced).
The second part covers pregnant women, whether they stopped menustrating during their pregnancy or continue to have their periods. So, even if a woman has her menses during her pregnancy, she will still have her 3idda by giving birth and not by counting three menses. Taking (those who did not have their menses) as those who did not have their menses yet is illogical, because the verse says their 3idda is by giving birth. What if she was not pregnant?
So we have two categories of women
1- Definite menopausal and semi menopausal = 3 full moons.
2- Pregnant whether menustarting during their pregnancy or not = delivery -
After I read 936, I continued to the following verse
937 "The postponing is an additin of covering (the truth kufr), by which those coverers of truth (the kafirs) are led astray they make it lawful a year and restrict it another in order to adjust the count set by God for restriction, so they make lawful what God restricted. The evil of their deeds is made fair-seeming to them. And the God guides guides not the people who cover the truth (the kafirs).
Who are meant by this verse? Any idea?
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Peace Belal,
The Quran authenticates the previous scriptures, not the other way around.
Peace all;
It seams that Ayman and his sect are trying to cover up the Truth that I posted regarding the Month calculation in the Bible and Torah. the following is a Quotion from http//www.crivoice.org/calendar.html, which shows that God always wanted the True Submitter to calculate the Month using the Moon Cycel
The system of keeping time in the Old Testament was based on the cycles of the moon rather than a solar calendar like we use today. In fact, the Hebrew term for "month," chodesh, means "new ," referring to the new moon that began the month. The lunar cycle played a significant role in the cultural and religious life in ancient Israel so that time could be counted by the cycles of the moon (Ex. 191). The New Moon was a festival day, observed by burnt offering and sacrifices as well as banquets (Num 296, 1 Sam 205, 1 Chron 2331). The New Moon festival was often listed along with Sabbath as an important religious observance (2 Kings 423, Ezek 4517). Like Sabbath and other rituals, it also came to symbolize empty and self-centered religion when not accompanied by faithfulness to God in other areas (Isa. 114, Amos 85). Likewise, the middle of the month or the Full Moon was an important marker of the passing of time. Two of Israel?s most important festivals fell in mid-month (Passover, Tabernacles; cf. Psa 813).
Now; it seams that Ayman and his followers are rejecting the Quran, the Bible, and the Torah.
By the way Truthseeker1, I'm still waiting for you to post the weather trend in "Madena" as you did for Mecca. ;D
Salaaaaam
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I have always been quiet skeptical of Ayman's postulates and had couple of bloody confrontations in the past.
I have been studying his schorching moon theory for the past three years with an open mind, and I must say that over a time I have progressed from giving it "an out side chance" to a "definite possibility", His understanding is still far from being perfect, but seems to be taking the right dirction.
Current debate has certainly helped me cross a threshold where , if i have to pick purely on evidence (only God knows the truth) , I would change to fasting in the summers after the Red Moon.
I must appriciate bravo some new comers like ,Tlepsh, Anthony, umme tariq , truth seeker, bellahamad, soof, ahmad belal, and off course our old pals, Nun, samia, Farida ,Afridi and Anwar! You Guys burned Midnight oil , but we benifited for free, so keep it up friends you are doing a great job.
Lastly, Umme Tariq and Truth seeker! Despite being new you have contributed positively and have given this subject a refreshing lift with mature and logical comprehension. handshake
Siki
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After I read 936, I continued to the following verse
937 "The postponing is an additin of covering (the truth kufr), by which those coverers of truth (the kafirs) are led astray they make it lawful a year and restrict it another in order to adjust the count set by God for restriction, so they make lawful what God restricted. The evil of their deeds is made fair-seeming to them. And the God guides guides not the people who cover the truth (the kafirs).
Who are meant by this verse? Any idea?
Peace
May be the ones mentioned in verse 9.34
9.34 O you who believe, many of the Priests and Monks consume people?s money in falsehood, and block them from the path of God. And those who hoard gold and silver, and do not spend it in the cause of God, give them news of a painful retribution.
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Peace sister Samia,
Thank you for sharing your understanding. I am torn between your understanding and mine of 654. I think that both certainly have merits. I think that there are a couple of issues that we need to clarify.
This is my understanding of verse 654
I think the first part is clear Those who are desperate of menustration have their 3idda three full moons. (If you are in doubt) covers those who are semi menopausal, i.e those who start to have spaced menustrations (e.g every 4 or 6 months or even more spaced).But what does "desperate" really mean? They (the women) are desperate of menstruation tells me that they completely gave up. So they don't think they will ever have any menstruation (whether in 4, 6, or 100 months). "If you are in doubt" is not saying that the women themselves are in doubt. If the women thought that they might get the menstruation every 4 or 6 months as you say then they wouldn't be "despaired of menstruation". Also, in this case waiting for the count of three full-moons doesn't accomplish anything. Since they could very well be pregnant. Absent of a pregnancy test, the only way to know if they are pregnant or not is if they start showing the signs of pregnancy which may not necessarily appear within the three full-moons or even longer.
Logically, the only way to guarantee that those women are not pregnant is to either wait for three menstruations or the gestation period, whichever comes first. This leads me to your next point.
The second part covers pregnant women, whether they stopped menustrating during their pregnancy or continue to have their periods. So, even if a woman has her menses during her pregnancy, she will still have her 3idda by giving birth and not by counting three menses. Taking (those who did not have their menses) as those who did not have their menses yet is illogical, because the verse says their 3idda is by giving birth. What if she was not pregnant?
I think that "women who didn't menstruate" refers to those women who didn't menstruate for any reason (known or unkown) since the time of the divorce. In this case, it is not known if she has amenorrhea or if she is semi menopausal or actually became menopause and the key is that unlike the first group, this woman hasn't DESPAIRED of menstruation.
So we have two categories of women
1- Definite menopausal and semi menopausal = 3 full moons.
2- Pregnant whether menustarting during their pregnancy or not = deliveryBut the semi menopausal can't be grouped together with the definite menopausal. The semi menopausal women are actually the ones in more danger of thinking that they are not pegnant while they are. If they are indeed pregnant then interruptions in their menstruation will be seen as normal and they may not feel any effects of the pregnancy until it is too late after the three-full moons. I think that this is why those who didn't menstruate (but didn't despair of menstruation) are grouped together with pregnant women and their waiting period is the gestation period. So here are the categories in order of risk of being pregnant while not knowing (from least risky to most risky)
- Women who have despaired of menstruation - Least risk - wait is ZERO or the count of 3 full-moons as an extra precaution.
- Average women who have normal menstruations - Low risk - wait 3 menstruations.
- Women who didn't menstruate since the divorce but have not despaired of menstruation - High risk - wait gestation period.
- Women who are pregnant - Risk is realized - wait gestation period.
Please let me know what you think.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace sister Samia,
After I read 936, I continued to the following verse
937 "The postponing is an additin of covering (the truth kufr), by which those coverers of truth (the kafirs) are led astray they make it lawful a year and restrict it another in order to adjust the count set by God for restriction, so they make lawful what God restricted. The evil of their deeds is made fair-seeming to them. And the God guides guides not the people who cover the truth (the kafirs).
Who are meant by this verse? Any idea?To know who is meant by those who make lawful what the god restricted we need to know what the god restricted during the restriction period.
So the question is what did the god restrict during the period of the restricted full-moons. He ONLY restricted hunting wild life.
So it is those who make lawful hunting wild life during the restriction period.
Notice how the passage says "The evil of their deeds is made fair-seeming to them."
For example, Sunnis make the violation of the restriction seem fair by attributing the restriction to preventing the thousands of pilgrims from eating every wild animal in the vicinity of Mecca. Therefore they claim that hunting is not restricted except for the pilgrims during the three days of pilgrimage despite pilgrimage not even being mentioned in relation to the hunting restriction. They even cover what they believe is the truth of their own interpretation of "shahr" since 936 specifically says four "shahr" (according to them "months" and not just the few days of their sectarian pilgrimage.
Peace,
Ayman