Hot/"ramadan" Answer

belH

Peace Belal,

The Quran authenticates the previous scriptures, not the other way around.

Peace all;

It seams that Ayman and his sect are trying to cover up the Truth that I posted regarding the Month calculation in the Bible and Torah. the following is a Quotion from http//www.crivoice.org/calendar.html, which shows that God always wanted the True Submitter to calculate the Month using the Moon Cycel

The system of keeping time in the Old Testament was based on the cycles of the moon rather than a solar calendar like we use today. In fact, the Hebrew term for "month," chodesh, means "new ," referring to the new moon that began the month. The lunar cycle played a significant role in the cultural and religious life in ancient Israel so that time could be counted by the cycles of the moon (Ex. 191). The New Moon was a festival day, observed by burnt offering and sacrifices as well as banquets (Num 296, 1 Sam 205, 1 Chron 2331). The New Moon festival was often listed along with Sabbath as an important religious observance (2 Kings 423, Ezek 4517). Like Sabbath and other rituals, it also came to symbolize empty and self-centered religion when not accompanied by faithfulness to God in other areas (Isa. 114, Amos 85). Likewise, the middle of the month or the Full Moon was an important marker of the passing of time. Two of Israel?s most important festivals fell in mid-month (Passover, Tabernacles; cf. Psa 813).

Now; it seams that Ayman and his followers are rejecting the Quran, the Bible, and the Torah.

By the way Truthseeker1, I'm still waiting for you to post the weather trend in "Madena" as you did for Mecca. ;D

Salaaaaam

siki

I have always been quiet skeptical of Ayman's postulates and had couple of bloody confrontations in the past.

I have been studying his schorching moon theory for the past three years with an open mind, and I must say that over a time I have progressed from giving it "an out side chance" to a "definite possibility", His understanding is still far from being perfect, but seems to be taking the right dirction.

Current debate has certainly helped me cross a threshold where , if i have to pick purely on evidence (only God knows the truth) , I would change to fasting in the summers after the Red Moon.

I must appriciate bravo some new comers like ,Tlepsh, Anthony, umme tariq , truth seeker, bellahamad, soof, ahmad belal, and off course our old pals, Nun, samia, Farida ,Afridi and Anwar! You Guys burned Midnight oil , but we benifited for free, so keep it up friends you are doing a great job.

Lastly, Umme Tariq and Truth seeker! Despite being new you have contributed positively and have given this subject a refreshing lift with mature and logical comprehension. handshake

Siki

Tlepsh

After I read 936, I continued to the following verse

937 "The postponing is an additin of covering (the truth kufr), by which those coverers of truth (the kafirs) are led astray they make it lawful a year and restrict it another in order to adjust the count set by God for restriction, so they make lawful what God restricted. The evil of their deeds is made fair-seeming to them. And the God guides guides not the people who cover the truth (the kafirs).

Who are meant by this verse? Any idea?

Peace

May be the ones mentioned in verse 9.34

9.34 O you who believe, many of the Priests and Monks consume people?s money in falsehood, and block them from the path of God. And those who hoard gold and silver, and do not spend it in the cause of God, give them news of a painful retribution.

ayman

Peace sister Samia,

Thank you for sharing your understanding. I am torn between your understanding and mine of 654. I think that both certainly have merits. I think that there are a couple of issues that we need to clarify.

This is my understanding of verse 654
I think the first part is clear Those who are desperate of menustration have their 3idda three full moons. (If you are in doubt) covers those who are semi menopausal, i.e those who start to have spaced menustrations (e.g every 4 or 6 months or even more spaced).

But what does "desperate" really mean? They (the women) are desperate of menstruation tells me that they completely gave up. So they don't think they will ever have any menstruation (whether in 4, 6, or 100 months). "If you are in doubt" is not saying that the women themselves are in doubt. If the women thought that they might get the menstruation every 4 or 6 months as you say then they wouldn't be "despaired of menstruation". Also, in this case waiting for the count of three full-moons doesn't accomplish anything. Since they could very well be pregnant. Absent of a pregnancy test, the only way to know if they are pregnant or not is if they start showing the signs of pregnancy which may not necessarily appear within the three full-moons or even longer.

Logically, the only way to guarantee that those women are not pregnant is to either wait for three menstruations or the gestation period, whichever comes first. This leads me to your next point.

The second part covers pregnant women, whether they stopped menustrating during their pregnancy or continue to have their periods. So, even if a woman has her menses during her pregnancy, she will still have her 3idda by giving birth and not by counting three menses. Taking (those who did not have their menses) as those who did not have their menses yet is illogical, because the verse says their 3idda is by giving birth. What if she was not pregnant?

I think that "women who didn't menstruate" refers to those women who didn't menstruate for any reason (known or unkown) since the time of the divorce. In this case, it is not known if she has amenorrhea or if she is semi menopausal or actually became menopause and the key is that unlike the first group, this woman hasn't DESPAIRED of menstruation.

So we have two categories of women
1- Definite menopausal and semi menopausal = 3 full moons.
2- Pregnant whether menustarting during their pregnancy or not = delivery

But the semi menopausal can't be grouped together with the definite menopausal. The semi menopausal women are actually the ones in more danger of thinking that they are not pegnant while they are. If they are indeed pregnant then interruptions in their menstruation will be seen as normal and they may not feel any effects of the pregnancy until it is too late after the three-full moons. I think that this is why those who didn't menstruate (but didn't despair of menstruation) are grouped together with pregnant women and their waiting period is the gestation period. So here are the categories in order of risk of being pregnant while not knowing (from least risky to most risky)

Women who have despaired of menstruation - Least risk - wait is ZERO or the count of 3 full-moons as an extra precaution.
Average women who have normal menstruations - Low risk - wait 3 menstruations.
Women who didn't menstruate since the divorce but have not despaired of menstruation - High risk - wait gestation period.
Women who are pregnant - Risk is realized - wait gestation period.

Please let me know what you think.

Peace,

Ayman

ayman

Peace sister Samia,

After I read 936, I continued to the following verse
937 "The postponing is an additin of covering (the truth kufr), by which those coverers of truth (the kafirs) are led astray they make it lawful a year and restrict it another in order to adjust the count set by God for restriction, so they make lawful what God restricted. The evil of their deeds is made fair-seeming to them. And the God guides guides not the people who cover the truth (the kafirs).
Who are meant by this verse? Any idea?

To know who is meant by those who make lawful what the god restricted we need to know what the god restricted during the restriction period.

So the question is what did the god restrict during the period of the restricted full-moons. He ONLY restricted hunting wild life.

So it is those who make lawful hunting wild life during the restriction period.

Notice how the passage says "The evil of their deeds is made fair-seeming to them."

For example, Sunnis make the violation of the restriction seem fair by attributing the restriction to preventing the thousands of pilgrims from eating every wild animal in the vicinity of Mecca. Therefore they claim that hunting is not restricted except for the pilgrims during the three days of pilgrimage despite pilgrimage not even being mentioned in relation to the hunting restriction. They even cover what they believe is the truth of their own interpretation of "shahr" since 936 specifically says four "shahr" (according to them "months&quot and not just the few days of their sectarian pilgrimage.

Peace,

Ayman

ayman

Peace Siki,

I have always been quiet skeptical of Ayman's postulates and had couple of bloody confrontations in the past.

It is funny that you mentioned this. I just checked today and Fahad had bumped your old thread all the way up

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13789.0

It is good to see you back on the forum. handshake

Peace,

Ayman

Bigmo

After I read 936, I continued to the following verse

937 "The postponing is an additin of covering (the truth kufr), by which those coverers of truth (the kafirs) are led astray they make it lawful a year and restrict it another in order to adjust the count set by God for restriction, so they make lawful what God restricted. The evil of their deeds is made fair-seeming to them. And the God guides guides not the people who cover the truth (the kafirs).

Who are meant by this verse? Any idea?

The number of months in the sight of Allah is twelve (in a year)- so ordained by Him the day He created the heavens and the earth; of them four are sacred that is the straight usage. So wrong not yourselves therein, and fight the Pagans all together as they fight you all together. But know that Allah is with those who restrain themselves.
Verily the transposing (of a prohibited month) is an addition to Unbelief the Unbelievers are led to wrong thereby for they make it lawful one year, and forbidden another year, in order to adjust the number of months forbidden by Allah and make such forbidden ones lawful. The evil of their course seems pleasing to them. But Allah guideth not those who reject Faith.

Is it about fighting in these months? or is about hunting?

Umm_Tariq

Peace Ayman,

Hmmm, I see what you are getting at. This is regarding divorce and it's important to make sure whether the divorcee is pregnant or not hence the command from the god to believing women to not hide what is in their wombs.

"There is no typo. Those who didn't/ haven't menstruated (but didn't DESPAIR of menstruation) should wait the gestation period same as those who are actually pregnant. This is the simplest and most straight forward interpretation of 654 without having to insert punctuations that don't make sense or interpret the "wa"/and between the two categories in a strange way. Since those who "didn't menstruate" didn't despair from menstruation, then this is also the only 100% sure way. Of course, everyone knows how long the human gestation period is. Even those who are not pregnant know it. Even men Smiley know it."

I see what you mean about the punctuations which don't all agree with each other in different masaahif, if we pay too much attention to them they can actually hinder clear understanding. yes However, since this part of the verse ends with 'ajalahunna an yadana hamlahunna', those who didn't/ haven't menstruated may not be pregnant so they have no 'haml', so how long would they really wait? If you are saying they wait until they know for sure that they aren't pregnant, then would they stop waiting???? ??? Sorry, it's the first time I've ever realized this verse 'could' be looked at this way so these are my initial inquiries. It still seems a little confusing because of this point, what if they aren't pregnant.

Peace Siki,

It is really positive and mature of you to share these thoughts of yours on this issue. Sometimes others' negativity and insults can put a real damper on the process of just trying to sincerely learn and seek out the truth with others, being respectful of differences that are truly based on the reading. All praise and thanks is to the god for everything good!

Umm Tariq

Umm_Tariq

Peace all,

Ayman I forgot to ask about this

Peace sister Samia,
To know who is meant by those who make lawful what the god restricted we need to know what the god restricted during the restriction period.

So the question is what did the god restrict during the period of the restricted full-moons. He ONLY restricted hunting wild life.

So it is those who make lawful hunting wild life during the restriction period.

Notice how the passage says "The evil of their deeds is made fair-seeming to them."

For example, Sunnis make the violation of the restriction seem fair by attributing the restriction to preventing the thousands of pilgrims from eating every wild animal in the vicinity of Mecca. Therefore they claim that hunting is not restricted except for the pilgrims during the three days of pilgrimage despite pilgrimage not even being mentioned in relation to the hunting restriction. They even cover what they believe is the truth of their own interpretation of "shahr" since 936 specifically says four "shahr" (according to them "months&quot and not just the few days of their sectarian pilgrimage.

This is the big question I asked to those who take 'shahr' as 'month' and who may also go by a strictly lunar calendar, how do they justify the 4 hurum CHANGING from year to year? Where did the god say that this happens? Wouldn't that contradict the very idea that they are hurum if it can change from year to year? Did you ever get a clear answer from them on this, maybe I missed that post. This is the big sticker to me and I definitely don't want to even THINK that these hurum can be violated even if I don't personally hunt.

Umm Tariq

farida

I have always been quiet skeptical of Ayman's postulates and had couple of bloody confrontations in the past.

You Guys burned Midnight oil , but we benifited for free, so keep it up friends you are doing a great job.

Lastly, Umme Tariq and Truth seeker! Despite being new you have contributed positively and have given this subject a refreshing lift with mature and logical comprehension. handshake

Siki

Salaam Siki,

You can then look forward to fast-free time, July being the month of monsoons in the Indian sub continent and a thick cloud cover is likely absolve you from any obligation to fast. Smile ,another reason to welcome Monsoons.

The monsoon is widely welcomed and appreciated by city-dwellers as well, for it provides relief from the climax of summer in June.
June 1 is regarded as the date of onset of the monsoon in India, which is the average date on which the monsoon strikes Kerala over the years for which scientific data is available with the Indian Meteoreological Department.
The North American Monsoon (NAM) occurs from late June or early July into September
The North American Monsoon (NAM) occurs from late June or early July into September
As monsoons have become better understood, the term monsoon has been broadened to include almost all of the phenomena associated with the annual weather cycle within the tropical and subtropical land regions of the earth.

Northeast Monsoon (Southern Asia and Australasia)
In Southern Asia, the northeastern monsoons take place from December to early March. The temperature over central Asia is less than 25?C as it is the northern hemisphere winter, therefore creating a zone of high pressure there. The jet stream in this region splits into the southern subtropical jet and the polar jet. The subtropical flow directs northeasterly winds to blow across southern Asia, creating dry air streams which produce clear skies over India. Meanwhile, a low pressure system develops over South-East Asia and Australasia and winds are directed toward Australia known as a monsoon trough.

For lovely images of cloud cover please visit
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monsoon

Enjoy a fast-free system

peace

unknownuser

For lovely images of cloud cover please visit
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monsoon

Enjoy a fast-free system

peace

Salaam Siki et al,

Yes, enjoy a fast free system and make sure a divorce happens right after a full moon so women in semi-menopause or 20% of women (puberty to menopause) who do not menstruate UNSURE as to reason and you are suspicious if they are pregnant wait THREE months (12 weeks or first trimester) and not only TWO months before a full moon.

http//www.babycenter.com/slideshow-baby-size

http//assets.babycenter.com/ims/2007/10oct/20071004/12-lime.jpg?width=424&height=302&pad=true

http//assets.babycenter.com/ims/2007/10oct/20071004/08-kidney-bean.jpg?width=424&height=302&pad=true

In addition, if anyone commits the below make sure it?s before a full moon so they fast only ONE month and not the required TWO MONTHS!

492? so who does not find, so fasting two months following each other, a repentance from at God, and God is knowledgeable, wise/judicious.

siki

Salaam Siki,

You can then look forward to fast-free time, July being the month of monsoons in the Indian sub continent and a thick cloud cover is likely absolve you from any obligation to fast. Smile ,another reason to welcome Monsoons.

My dear Farida and Nun

salam,

" Who so ever witnesses" If one has to literly witness the moon for fasting, then the same applies for sighting the cresent (Ahilla). And let me tell you that if the metrological conditions are not favorable , there is still a fair chance that one can make out the full moon , but sighting the cresent moon is not nope possible.

But why are we getting in to this ? we dont have to, nor is the blind man excused. The word witness simply ensures that whe all fast in the hottest possible, and for the longest duration, weather we live in the Northren hemisphere or down under.

And as the mankind has better tools avaiable to pin point Red moon at every Lat and Long, so a calender can be made for every region.

By the way, '( July days are longest, hottest, sun sun and very humid &, and I guess I have managed to get my fasting stuck around this month for the rest of my life ( .

peace

siki

farida

My dear Farida and Nun

salam,
" Who so ever witnesses" If one has to literally witness the moon for fasting, then the same applies for sighting the crescent (Ahilla). And let me tell you that if the metrological conditions are not favorable , there is still a fair chance that one can make out the full moon , but sighting the cresent moon is not nope possible.
siki

Salaam Siki,
I/we do not believe in the literal sighting of the moon as a basis for fasting. Otherwise we would be excluding, not only the blind, but also the partial sighted, actually we are satisfied with the crescent as a marker for the beginning of a month. yes even web/satellite viewing would do.
The example of a crescent is like a person born and a full moon is the state of his prime and then comes the decline towards old age. hmm

But why are we getting in to this ? we dont have to, nor is the blind man excused. The word witness simply ensures that whe all fast in the hottest possible, and for the longest duration, weather we live in the Northren hemisphere or down under
And as the mankind has better tools avaiable to pin point Red moon at every Lat and Long, so a calender can be made for every region..

Try telling this to Ayman and his team and also Umme Tariq and Truth seeker! who" Despite being new you have contributed positively and have given this subject a refreshing lift with mature and logical comprehension."

By the way, '( July days are longest, hottest, sun sun and very humid &, and I guess I have managed to get my fasting stuck around this month for the rest of my life .

Why very humid ???

peace
Ps I hope Nun can adress your Red moon suggestion.

truthseeker11

Peace Umm Tariq and Ayman,

However, since this part of the verse ends with 'ajalahunna an yadana hamlahunna', those who didn't/ haven't menstruated may not be pregnant so they have no 'haml', so how long would they really wait?

That is exactly my question too. The words are "yada'na hamlahunna" meaning "they deliver their burdens/pregnancy" which signifies an EVENT and not a TIME PERIOD. It cannot be interpreted as "gestation period".

Why can't "lam yahidna" mean those who never had menstruation (primary amenorrhea)?

truthseeker11

Peace Siki,

Umme Tariq and Truth seeker! Despite being new you have contributed positively and have given this subject a refreshing lift with mature and logical comprehension.

Thank you for the kind and positive words. May The God guide us all to the truth.

truthseeker11

Peace everyone,

It seams that Ayman and his sect are trying to cover up the Truth that I posted regarding the Month calculation in the Bible and Torah. the following is a Quotion from http//www.crivoice.org/calendar.html, which shows that God always wanted the True Submitter to calculate the Month using the Moon Cycel

The system of keeping time in the Old Testament was based on the cycles of the moon rather than a solar calendar like we use today. In fact, the Hebrew term for "month," chodesh, means "new ," referring to the new moon that began the month. The lunar cycle played a significant role in the cultural and religious life in ancient Israel so that time could be counted by the cycles of the moon (Ex. 191). The New Moon was a festival day, observed by burnt offering and sacrifices as well as banquets (Num 296, 1 Sam 205, 1 Chron 2331). The New Moon festival was often listed along with Sabbath as an important religious observance (2 Kings 423, Ezek 4517). Like Sabbath and other rituals, it also came to symbolize empty and self-centered religion when not accompanied by faithfulness to God in other areas (Isa. 114, Amos 85). Likewise, the middle of the month or the Full Moon was an important marker of the passing of time. Two of Israel?s most important festivals fell in mid-month (Passover, Tabernacles; cf. Psa 813).

Now; it seams that Ayman and his followers are rejecting the Quran, the Bible, and the Torah.

By the way Truthseeker1, I'm still waiting for you to post the weather trend in "Madena" as you did for Mecca. ;D

Firstly, I never referenced any website about Mecca's weather
Secondly, I did reference a website about Medina's weather. It is not my fault that Belal cannot see it.

I have no cure for spiritual inability to see (

Logical fallacies in Belal's post

Appeal to tradition where a thesis is deemed correct on the basis that it has a long-standing tradition behind it
Argumentum ad populum ("appeal to belief", "appeal to the majority", "appeal to the people&quot where a proposition is claimed to be true solely because many people believe it to be true
Bare assertion fallacy premise in an argument is assumed to be true purely because it says that it is true.
Package-deal fallacy when two or more things have been linked together by tradition or culture are said to stay that way forever
Argument from repetition (argumentum ad nauseam)
Begging the question ("petitio principii&quot where the conclusion of an argument is implicitly or explicitly assumed in one of the premises
False attribution when an advocate appeals to an irrelevant, unqualified, unidentified, biased or fabricated source in support of an argument.
Cherry picking the act of pointing at individual cases or data that seem to confirm a particular position, while ignoring a significant portion of related cases or data that may contradict that position.

we are satisfied with the crescent as a marker for the beginning of a month.

Two questions

WHICH crescent (waxing or waning) is to be used to begin fasting per The Quran?
WHEN does that crescent occur during a year in relation to fasting per The Quran?

truthseeker11

Peace Samia, others,

This is my understanding of verse 654

I think the first part is clear Those who are desperate of menustration have their 3idda three full moons. (If you are in doubt) covers those who are semi menopausal, i.e those who start to have spaced menustrations (e.g every 4 or 6 months or even more spaced).

The second part covers pregnant women, whether they stopped menustrating during their pregnancy or continue to have their periods. So, even if a woman has her menses during her pregnancy, she will still have her 3idda by giving birth and not by counting three menses. Taking (those who did not have their menses) as those who did not have their menses yet is illogical, because the verse says their 3idda is by giving birth. What if she was not pregnant?

So we have two categories of women
1- Definite menopausal and semi menopausal = 3 full moons.
2- Pregnant whether menustarting during their pregnancy or not = delivery

Thank you Samia for your understanding. This is the same as my initial understanding.

I think the two groups are

Waallaee ya-isna mina almaheedi min nisa-ikum ini irtabtum (those women who have despaired/given up from the menstruation, if you are doubtful). This would include all the women who have stopped menstruating because of menopause or other reasons excluding pregnancy but "you" are doubtful as to whether "they" have actually stopped menstruating due to those reasons.
Waallaee lam yahidna wa olatual ahmali (those who haven't menstruated and are pregnant). This would include all those women who were menstruating regularly but haven't menstruated since divorce due to pregnancy.

Please not that "waallaee" separates the two groups and there is no "waallaee" between "lam yahidna" and "olatual ahmali".

Let me give an example

If I say to a class "Those students who are tall and are wearing a white shirt, stand up", I will mean those students who are tall as well as wearing white shirt, i.e. they have to fulfil both criteria.

If I had meant all tall students and all those wearing white shirt (including the ones who are not tall), I would have said "Those students who are tall and those who are wearing a white shirt", i.e. I would have used two "waallaee".

"Lam yahidna wa olatual ahmali" would mean "Those who haven't menstruated AS WELL AS are pregnant".

"Lam yahidna" cannot mean those who never had menstruation because then it will create a logical contradiction with "yada'na hamlahunna". Therefore, the women who never menstruated (primary amenorrhea) will be excluded and will have no interim because it is certain that they are not pregnant and it is certain that they don't have menstruations.

The words are "yada'na hamlahunna" meaning "they deliver their burdens/fetuses" which signifies an EVENT and not a TIME PERIOD. It cannot be interpreted as "gestation period".

Samia

But what does "desperate" really mean? They (the women) are desperate of menstruation tells me that they completely gave up. So they don't think they will ever have any menstruation (whether in 4, 6, or 100 months). "If you are in doubt" is not saying that the women themselves are in doubt. If the women thought that they might get the menstruation every 4 or 6 months as you say then they wouldn't be "despaired of menstruation". Also, in this case waiting for the count of three full-moons doesn't accomplish anything. Since they could very well be pregnant. Absent of a pregnancy test, the only way to know if they are pregnant or not is if they start showing the signs of pregnancy which may not necessarily appear within the three full-moons or even longer.

Logically, the only way to guarantee that those women are not pregnant is to either wait for three menstruations or the gestation period, whichever comes first. This leads me to your next point.

Salaam Ayman

You're right in the underlined part, my mistake. But still I have another understanding. Maybe it is those women who make believe they are still menustrating, but because, say, of their age, you are in doubt; or they bleed for another reason. Since we have two ways in the verse to count the 3idda, we have to exclude these women from the possibility of being pregnant.

I think that "women who didn't menstruate" refers to those women who didn't menstruate for any reason (known or unkown) since the time of the divorce. In this case, it is not known if she has amenorrhea or if she is semi menopausal or actually became menopause and the key is that unlike the first group, this woman hasn't DESPAIRED of menstruation.

Why would she wait until delivery? How long before she finds she was not pregnant?

As I understand, there are two groups Those who can't be pregnant (menopausal and those who believe they are not but we doubt that) and those who are pregnant (those who have their menustrations stop during pregnancy and those who continue their menustartion during pregnancy).

belH

Current debate has certainly helped me cross a threshold where , if i have to pick purely on evidence (only God knows the truth) , I would change to fasting in the summers after the Red Moon.

hypno

Even after knowing that the Quran, the Bible and the Torah are calling for Luner Year?
But, it is your Free-well to choose; but I will be witnessing aginest you in the Judgment Day. See you there yes

Umm_Tariq

Peace Belalhammad,

I don't want to get into a big discussion but what if I told you that there are Christians who believe that the real message in the Bible points to a luni-solar calendar as well and it's 'tradition' that said otherwise? http//www.4angelspublications.com/lunisoloar.html
They are also considered 'nuts' by 'traditionalists'. You can debate with them if you like. Anyway, the reading is 'muhaiman' over what is before it and there are known falsehoods in these books as they are now so we know to reject those falsehoods only based on the reading. We believe that initially they were sent from Allah, His books, but we know that they have been corrupted, hence, the need and mercy for our Lord to send us this book and then promise to protect this message. One of the women is a very nice lady, I consider her a believer since she says that she believes Muhammad was a prophet and that the 'quran' is from the god. She is still studying and I hope you don't offend her.

Umm Tariq