-=[ Salaat Al Wusta is Salaat al Juma ]=-
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peace farida,
There has been previous discussions on sujood and rukoo, and I cant recall there being much evidence for these being physical movements as part of "salat". In fact, the evidence was to the contrary.
Salaam Wakas
I have read previous discussions on free-mind and I really do appreciate much of your work in this area, like the different meanings of Salah, and I learn a lot from you, may you gain more insight into it. However, in this respect,I do not agree with the evidence cited but agree totally with Edip.peace
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Salaaman Zidane,
Brother, I got lot of questions to ask from your message, but you said
I'm sorry for going off-topic here, just sharing my views on the verse. I shall not go more off topic for this thread nor do I have the time to come and re-discuss about this ritual salaat debate. I'm sure, if anyone is interested, he/she can find a lot to read on understanding salaat as bonds to God.
No probs, May Allah guide us all towards the Truth.
Regards,
mmKhan
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Salamunalaikum sister farida, brother mmkhan.
Peace dear sister farida, yes, I used to read that article and it looks good, just that now I understand that something else makes much more sense, for me, towards God alone. Not to start a debate here about what the mosque's according to quran is actually for or what it means. I respect that you have proven interesting points in support of the ritual way in some of the questions I raised. Please make sure you investigate them and the other questions in the way of bond/laws salat too, for example like the 4102 rendition I posted, and other peoples' post on this issue across the forum - see how it relates with the context, so you can see both ways and see what makes more sense, for yourself.
Agreed brother mmkhan, may God guide us all towards truth. )
I like to look at in the light of the story of Moses and the "a servant of Ours whom We had given him mercy from Us and We taught him knowledge from Us" in 1865 onwards - it shows that many people can be good in different ways - somethings seemed wrong to Moses but not to the other man who knew what he was doing.
As for us, I'm sure you know many things I don't about applying the ritual theory and vice versa. I'm sure we can learn from the others' view.
As for my point of view, just be sincere in your investigation and I'm sure you can learn from this salat = bond rendition of the quran too. At least, I hope the rendition of 4102 posted makes a lot of sense.
May God guide us to the sincere answers in our learning that would please God Himself.
May God Guide & Bless,
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Salaamun all,
here it is clear that before Salaat Al Juma, we are busy with Baeiy (selling) that we have to stop and run towards the Salaat when call has been made for Salaat on Friday. And when we finishes our Salaat, we have been guided to seek for Fazl of Allah. That clearly means that Salaat al Juma is not at the time of Fajr or Ishaan, but in the middle.
Now, everything sets up easily inshaAllah.
2238 Keep guard upon all Salaats (more than two), and the middle Salaat; and stand before Allah in devout obedience.
We have to guard all our regular Salaats as well as Salaat al Juma. Does this make sense?
Allah made things clear in His AlKitaab. Alhamdulillah.
Regards,
mmKhanpeace all ,
Juma will be held during the dawn and evening prayer service untill further notice.
Bring proof that we are to pray friday at noon. Buisnesses run 24/7 ( i.g. durning the dawn and evening time.)
Example " most of the time I have to caese my selling and put people on hold untill i finish salatin in the eving and somtiemes even during the dawn hours."
This is nothing new. Or did everyone only work during the day in the past and then everyone on the entire earth would go to sleep at night and no one worked during the nights or evening ect...? o
peace
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Salamunalaikum sister farida, brother mmkhan.
Peace dear sister farida, yes, I used to read that article and it looks good, just that now I understand that something else makes much more sense, for me, towards God alone. Not to start a debate here about what the mosque's according to quran is actually for or what it means. I respect that you have proven interesting points in support of the ritual way in some of the questions I raised. Please make sure you investigate them and the other questions in the way of bond/laws salat too, for example like the 4102 rendition I posted, and other peoples' post on this issue across the forum - see how it relates with the context, so you can see both ways and see what makes more sense, for yourself.
May God Guide & Bless,
Wasalaamualaikum Zidane,
Today as I was doing "Salah" for my body, I was raising my arms, jumping, jogging on the spot, twisting, skipping, resting on one leg, lounging, establishing balance, hopping, Sumo wrestling, karate kicking, boxing, also included lying flat, rolling on side, sit ups, stretching with my chin touching the floor, and ending with yoga style stretching. Interestingly it was during my routine exercise session that I ended up pondering upon 4102, which you kindly suggested that I should reflect upon.
Now, as you can see, during my exercise I did lots of moves, which can come under rituals as some people understand them, whereas the rest of the moves may be outside those mentioned in the Qur?an so, as some of the free-minders understand it, one could say I did ?Salah?. You see I am not missing out on anything. What I gain, but which others miss out on, is humbling myself in devotion before God at least three times a day, returning kindness with kindness, I would suggest that you too try doing sujood with complete submission and see how you feel.Its always nice talking to enlightened ones,
God BlessSalaam Anthoneywallace
Your day is not my day and my business is not like your business.
peace -
peace
O you who believe, werever the prayers are called to on the holy day Friday, then run quickly towards Gods rememberance, and leave the doing buisness. That is best for you, if you are able. So, whenever the prayers are finished, then disperse in the land; and desire from Gods blessing. And mention God much, you might be succesful.
Bring proofs that the time of friday prayer is at noon. How do you know that we are not to congregate during the dawn or/and evening prayer times. Why because it says leave the selling? As we all no, trading is being done 24/7 ( during dawn and evening times.) Or are we only allowed to do buisness in the daytime? And then do we all haev to go to bed at night ( lights out everyone on the earth! Time for bed. ) ?
peace
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Salaaman Wallace,
peace all ,
Juma will be held during the dawn and evening prayer service untill further notice.
Bring proof that we are to pray friday at noon. Buisnesses run 24/7 ( i.g. durning the dawn and evening time.)
You are asking for proof brother without giving proof for your claim? Its totally unfair.
Businesses run 24/7? Whose businesses? What are you talking about? Did Allah ask to do so? No! I am talking about AlQuraan and the rules of Allah made for us and you are talking about those who even don't believe in Allah? .
Example " most of the time I have to caese my selling and put people on hold untill i finish salatin in the eving and somtiemes even during the dawn hours."
This is nothing new. Or did everyone only work during the day in the past and then everyone on the entire earth would go to sleep at night and no one worked during the nights or evening ect...? o
peace
Oh yes, indeed!
2458 O YOU who have attained to faith! At three times, let those whom you rightfully pos?sess, as well as those from among you who have not yet attained to puberty, ask leave of you before the prayer of daybreak, and whenever you lay aside your garments in the middle of the day, and after the prayer of nightfall the three occasions on which your nakedness is likely to be bared. Beyond these, neither you nor they will incur any sin if they move about you, attending to one another. In this way God makes clear unto you His mes?sages for God is all-knowing, wise!
Ya ayyuha allatheena amanoo liyastathinkumu allatheena malakat aymanukum waallatheena lam yablughoo alhuluma minkum thalatha marratin min qabli salati alfajri waheena tadaAAoona thiyabakum mina alththaheerati wamin baAAdi salati alAAishai thalathu AAawratin lakum laysa AAalaykum wala AAalayhim junahun baAAdahunna tawwafoona AAalaykum baAAdukum AAala baAAdin kathalika yubayyinu Allahu lakumu alayati waAllahu AAaleemun hakeemun
(245
If you can see carefully in the 2458, time after Salaat Al Eshaan is the time for bed, not for bayee. It is very clear because Allah said "In this way God makes clear unto you His mes?sages for God is all-knowing, wise!" 2458
Right?
May Allah guide us all towards the path that He has chosen for us.
Regards,
mmKhan -
Salamunalaikum dear sister farida,
It's good to hear that you're taking good care of your health. I love jogging in the evenings too - it releases all the stress of the day and feels very good.
The thing that's missing when you uphold the "ritual salat" is the focus of being under God's laws, as the ritual physical benefits as you stated is no where near 2945, but when we focus on the laws of God - we'll focus on, for example
Good collection http//www.submission.org/quran/etiquette.html
(sorry for not quoting verses...)
- Focus to speak kindly, especially with your parents.
- be good to thy neighbor
- give to the poor
- do good for the benefit of society... now I feel good to collect some trash on the road after i go jogging, etc. Also www.kiva.org - and other many ways to do good for others.
- Speak using good words.
- "speak only truth/justice even it might not be good to those near of kin".
- Don't talk bad about others behind their backs.
- Don't indulge in idle-talk.
- Many verses in chapter 17, etc.
- etc.
As for myself, upholding many of the commands of Gods to us, made me a really better person than before when I or others I know didn't focus on those laws as main priority since it's not in the traditional 6 foundations (but the rituals are in) - I mean - "I already did salah" and then loose focus of God's law - you can see this across the "muslim" or other societies that think they're saved by rituals or special exceptions.
I mean, many don't forget to pray everyday but they seem to be careless when talking bad in the back of others or tell a lie for their business or their insurance case, family, etc.
Salah (and zakat, betterment for the society) is mentioned so many many times in quran - makes me think "why God is putting salah as so important" if it's just a ritual? What about those in 262, it's nowhere talking about "salah" at all - now I see that it goes perfectly with 262 - as upholding God's laws (which you understand logically) really make you a good person and away from bad.
There are many times in life that these situations come and you then think twice and uphold the laws of God - since it's clearly logical that it makes you a better person and more away from evil.
Now, when we read the Quran, we learn to be a better person. Perfectly like 2945.
When you read any book, you'll agree/beleive when it makes sense/logical - not because it's title is "sacred" ("Quran", etc) - that's why it makes sense for the beings in 722.
I sincerely apologize again if my view offends you or any other readers.
May God Guide & bless.
Peace,
Zidane. -
Salaaman Wallace,
You are asking for proof brother without giving proof for your claim? Its totally unfair.Businesses run 24/7? Whose businesses? What are you talking about? Did Allah ask to do so? No! I am talking about AlQuraan and the rules of Allah made for us and you are talking about those who even don't believe in Allah? .
Oh yes, indeed!2458 O YOU who have attained to faith! At three times, let those whom you rightfully pos?sess, as well as those from among you who have not yet attained to puberty, ask leave of you before the prayer of daybreak, and whenever you lay aside your garments in the middle of the day, and after the prayer of nightfall the three occasions on which your nakedness is likely to be bared. Beyond these, neither you nor they will incur any sin if they move about you, attending to one another. In this way God makes clear unto you His mes?sages for God is all-knowing, wise!
If you can see carefully in the 2458, time after Salaat Al Eshaan is the time for bed, not for bayee. It is very clear because Allah said "In this way God makes clear unto you His mes?sages for God is all-knowing, wise!" 2458
Right?
May Allah guide us all towards the path that He has chosen for us.
Regards,
mmKhanPeace be upon you, here is my proof
When/were do we assemble for salat?
O you who believe, werever/whenever the prayers are called to on the holy day Friday, then run quickly towards Gods rememberance, and leave the doing buisness. That is best for you, if you are able. So, whenever the prayers are finished, then disperse in the land; and desire from Gods blessing. And mention God much, you might be succesful.
What time is the salat?
11114 And keep the salat on the sides of the day. On parts touching upon the night, not far from the night. Thus, the righteousness cancels the sins. This is a reminder to the praising.
1778 Keep the salat on the verge of sunset untill the nights blakness; and the dawn Quran. The dawn quran has been made official.
peace
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Salamunalaikum dear sister farida,
It's good to hear that you're taking good care of your health. I love jogging in the evenings too - it releases all the stress of the day and feels very good.
The thing that's missing when you uphold the "ritual salat" is the focus of being under God's laws, as the ritual physical benefits as you stated is no where near 2945, but when we focus on the laws of God - we'll focus on, for example
Good collection http//www.submission.org/quran/etiquette.html
Now, when we read the Quran, we learn to be a better person. Perfectly like 2945.
When you read any book, you'll agree/beleive when it makes sense/logical - not because it's title is "sacred" ("Quran", etc) - that's why it makes sense for the beings in 722.
I sincerely apologize again if my view offends you or any other readers.
May God Guide & bless.
Peace,
Zidane.Wasalamunalaikum Zidane,
I couldn?t agree with you more, it hurts me too when I see many who regularly perform ritual pray, have no clue what manners they should possess. As I said before the root of the problem is the teachers/Imams who have taken over for money not for passion to lead/teach people towards righteousness.
In this month of fasting you would notice so called Muslim youth behaving for a month, my son get so annoyed with his friend who become pious for a month and then end of fast, Eid day they make up by behaving disgustingly. So I can go on and on about it but then what can we do we can only remind those around us what is expected of us in all areas.
However if we allow these so called worshippers to stop us from doing our duty then we are falling into this trap. I believe that the Salah I perform solely for God, in devotion, is my very private contact and it give me strength it helps me to feel humbled and during most distressful time I found solace in Salah, so as I said before God is not in need of us we need God.When you read any book, you'll agree/beleive when it makes sense/logical - not because it's title is "sacred" ("Quran", etc) - that's why it makes sense for the beings in 722.
Unfortunately many read book to appear intellectuals and some buy books for sake of putting it on the book shelf not many know what is the difference between a good book and a best seller so blessed are those who read to gain knowledge and apply it in their daily life.
Now you would also come across, who does follow lots of what you say but does not speak up against injustice for fear of offending others forgetting this
It guides to righteousness, and we have believed in it; we will never set up any idols beside our Lord. 722
I must thank you for give the link about Islamic etiquette. this is excellent collection and when I read it I see that I need to improve so keep up the good work I mean salah and would like to return your kindness with this reminder
O you who believe, you shall be absolutely equitable, and observe GOD, when you serve as witnesses. Do not be provoked by your conflicts with some people into committing injustice. You shall be absolutely equitable, for it is more righteous. You shall observe GOD. GOD is fully Cognizant of everything you do
And
Please do watch this documentary post by Alifaiz ,
Palestinian side of the story (some of it anyway)
? on September 23, 2008, 100924 PM ?http//freedocumentaries.org/film.php?id=169
262 Surely, those who believe, those who are Jewish, the Christians, and the converts; anyone who (1) believes in GOD, and (2) believes in the Last Day, and (3) leads a righteous life, will receive their recompense from their Lord. They have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve
God bless you for doing good, may we all learn from each other.and promote each other.
peace.
Ps Please ignore any erros in my post it's late, must go to bed now -
Salaam Wakas
I have read previous discussions on free-mind and I really do appreciate much of your work in this area, like the different meanings of Salah, and I learn a lot from you, may you gain more insight into it. However, in this respect,I do not agree with the evidence cited but agree totally with Edip.peace
In terms of evidence, the evidence is clearly against "sujood" meaning physical prostration in The Quran, i.e. there are more verses showing it cannot mean a physical prostration than showing it can mean one. This is fact.
In any case, if you have reviewed the evidence, that is fine.
I have not read Edip's article but I know he uses interpretations of 1778 and 2238 for example that have already been discussed.
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In terms of evidence, the evidence is clearly against "sujood" meaning physical prostration in The Quran, i.e. there are more verses showing it cannot mean a physical prostration than showing it can mean one. This is fact.
In any case, if you have reviewed the evidence, that is fine.
I have not read Edip's article but I know he uses interpretations of 1778 and 2238 for example that have already been discussed.
Prostrate to the Almighty. ( Physicaly and mentaly and everything inbetween ).
Do not obey them, prostrate and come near.
prostrate = to lye flat/ face down/ streched at full lenth/ to lye flat in adoration or prostration/ emotionaly or physicaly overcome........
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And I still want to talk ablout this
Peace be upon you, here is my proof
When/were do we assemble for salat?
O you who believe, werever/whenever the prayers are called to on the holy day Friday, then run quickly towards Gods rememberance, and leave the doing buisness. That is best for you, if you are able. So, whenever the prayers are finished, then disperse in the land; and desire from Gods blessing. And mention God much, you might be succesful.
What time is the salat?
11114 And keep the salat on the sides of the day. On parts touching upon the night, not far from the night. Thus, the righteousness cancels the sins. This is a reminder to the praising.
1778 Keep the salat on the verge of sunset untill the nights blakness; and the dawn Quran. The dawn quran has been made official.
peace
I dont think there is much to talk about thoe with this.
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Peace be upon you,
God is not an object, and that being the case, you cannot physically prostrate to It. If you physically prostrate then you are prostrating to the sun or moon.
In saying that , it is not wrong to physically prostrate as a means of ritual to help yourself be humble or whatever you are trying to do, but it is not commanded that we physically prostrate. The real prostration is of the WILL. God wants you to CHOOSE righteousness, that is the prostration spoken of in this message.
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Peace be upon you,
God is not an object, and that being the case, you cannot physically prostrate to It. If you physically prostrate then you are prostrating to the sun or moon.
In saying that , it is not wrong to physically prostrate as a means of ritual to help yourself be humble or whatever you are trying to do, but it is not commanded that we physically prostrate. The real prostration is of the WILL. God wants you to CHOOSE righteousness, that is the prostration spoken of in this message.
Will you not prostrate to the Almighty? Just because one physically prostrates doesnt mean he is prostrating to the sun or moon. God knows who His servants are. And a person knows who they are prostrating to.
When I prostrate I know who im prostrating to. I prostrate to the Almighty. The creater of the sun and the moon if you were certain.
When one prostrates it must be done with concentration, one cannot prostrate to the sun or moon or any other object " thinking" that he is worshiping God.
I truly serve God. So I prostrate to God, the one who created the sun and the moon.
And we believe in all of it. Physical prostration and the mental.
So when all the prophets and messengers fell prostrate, are you tellin us that they were worshipin the sun or moon?I dont think so.
You see them kneeling and prostrating, they are seeking a blessing from your Lord.
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In terms of evidence, the evidence is clearly against "sujood" meaning physical prostration
In any case, if you have reviewed the evidence, that is fine.I have not read Edip's article but I know he uses interpretations of 1778 and 2238 for example that have already been discussed.
Salaam Wakas,
I have not read Edip's article but I know he uses interpretations of 1778 and 2238 for example that have already been discussed.
What evidence; by whom? You mean some Arabic-speaking free-minders, who debate between themselves; trimming away what they dislike they disregard and manipulate the verses of the Qur?an. They agree on a new system explained by them not by the prophet. To them the prophet was some irrelevant deliverer of the message and they are more intelligent to finally establish the system thus completing the favour upon .....?
519 O followers of the Book! indeed Our Messenger has come to you explaining to you after a cessation of the (mission of the) messengers, lest you say There came not to us a giver of good news or a Warner, so indeed there has come to you a giver of good news and a warner; and Allah has power over all things.there are more verses showing it cannot mean a physical prostration than showing it can mean one. This is fact.
Just as the fact established that the month of fasting should fall in the Monsoon months, when the night of power is likely to be washed out in the Monsoon rains or exempting the blinds as well as the rest who fail to witness the ?Red Moon?. So NO sujood, NO fasting, NO obligations towards anyone and NO common sense either.
peace -
Peace be upon you,
God is not an object, and that being the case, you cannot physically prostrate to It. If you physically prostrate then you are prostrating to the sun or moon.
Absolutely!
In saying that , it is not wrong to physically prostrate as a means of ritual to help yourself be humble or whatever you are trying to do, but it is not commanded that we physically prostrate. God wants you to CHOOSE righteousness, that is the prostration spoken of in this message
No commandment as such, but there is plenty of evidience in the scriptures that the prophets prostrated and I see it as a sign of submission in humbleness.
The real prostration is of the WILL
Yes real prostration is that of WILL, Satan was asked to prostrate to Adam, but refused, simply that Satanic instincts refused to be controlled by Adam's ability to take charge.
peace
peace -
Peace be upon you both,
Again, if you choose to physically prostrate, thats fine, but looking at the world FULL of people who get on the ground, how much has getting on the ground changed the behavior of the worlds population? A so called "islamic terrorist" certainly prostrates physically, if only he/she would prostrate with the WILL, they would not do such foolish behavior. And isnt it the BEHAVIOR that we are suppossed to be changing with our prostration? Or are we just suppossed to be scarring our foreheads up?
There is a verse I want you to consider very seriously. I am not your enemy and I dont want you to jump back with a quick answer even if you have heard this before. There is a verse that says when the quran is recited, those who believe PROSTRATE. Period, there is no if, ands, or buts about it.
Do you get on the groung everytime you hear a verse from the quran? Do not take this statement lightly because it will help you get closer to the message, closer to God who is closer than the Jugular vein (within), not way up in the sky somewhere. How can one physically prostrate to THAT which is WITHIN?DOesnt it make more sense that EVERYTIME you hear the recitation of quran, that your behavior is changed due to the reminder? That instead of going to cheat on your wife, you are reminded of truth and you prostrate your will to what is right and take yourself home to your wife? Or is it that you are crossing a busy intersection and you hear the quran recited from someone cars radio, do you stop and prostrate in oncoming traffic?
Also, there is a verse that says "enter the gate prostrating", you will certainly tear the flesh from your forehead if you make this a habit. But if you enter the gate in mental submission to God's Will, then you have entered correctly.
We have all been strongly influenced by physical prostration and it is hard for us to , not give it up, but see that it is not really what is being taught to us by God. Like I said, if it helps you to do right, by all means, continue, but realize that the physical prostration is only useful if it helps you prostrate mentally.
Lastly here is a question, who is better off, one who prostrates mentally but not physically, or one who prostrates physically but not mentally?
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Peace be upon you both,
Again, if you choose to physically prostrate, thats fine, but looking at the world FULL of people who get on the ground, how much has getting on the ground changed the behavior of the worlds population? A so called "islamic terrorist" certainly prostrates physically, if only he/she would prostrate with the WILL, they would not do such foolish behavior. And isnt it the BEHAVIOR that we are suppossed to be changing with our prostration? Or are we just suppossed to be scarring our foreheads up?
There is a verse I want you to consider very seriously. I am not your enemy and I dont want you to jump back with a quick answer even if you have heard this before. There is a verse that says when the quran is recited, those who believe PROSTRATE. Period, there is no if, ands, or buts about it.
Do you get on the groung everytime you hear a verse from the quran? Do not take this statement lightly because it will help you get closer to the message, closer to God who is closer than the Jugular vein (within), not way up in the sky somewhere. How can one physically prostrate to THAT which is WITHIN?DOesnt it make more sense that EVERYTIME you hear the recitation of quran, that your behavior is changed due to the reminder? That instead of going to cheat on your wife, you are reminded of truth and you prostrate your will to what is right and take yourself home to your wife? Or is it that you are crossing a busy intersection and you hear the quran recited from someone cars radio, do you stop and prostrate in oncoming traffic?
Also, there is a verse that says "enter the gate prostrating", you will certainly tear the flesh from your forehead if you make this a habit. But if you enter the gate in mental submission to God's Will, then you have entered correctly.
We have all been strongly influenced by physical prostration and it is hard for us to , not give it up, but see that it is not really what is being taught to us by God. Like I said, if it helps you to do right, by all means, continue, but realize that the physical prostration is only useful if it helps you prostrate mentally.
Lastly here is a question, who is better off, one who prostrates mentally but not physically, or one who prostrates physically but not mentally?
Na jaa masjid na kar sajde udu ke ture de kozey
Nemaze-e-eshq parta jaa yahi teri ebadat hai
angel
