Oral Debate between Ayman and Edip...
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most of the posts on this forum are dedicated to debating and advocating various theories though. i thought that was the point.
Salaam dc2,
This is what it says on top of this forum About us a forum for monotheists, and discussion of Islam based on The Quran. As a result of a discussion you learn and contribute, where as the debate it?s about two parties, set in their ways, not budging from their stand point. This dispute is more like two US presidential hopefuls trying to win voters.
peace -
If the Quran is God's word, and if the same Quran contains a verse "On it Nineteen" and explains the its role in powerful words to distinguish the acknowledging people from hypocrites and ingrates, and distinguish the progressives from the regressive ones, then it is beyond me to understand those who deem it irrelevant or unimportant. Especially, after learning that the first and the most repeated verse of the Quran has exactly 19 letters and the number of chapters in the Quran 114 too is multiple of this number, and many more simple facts that can be easily verified and many complex facts that can be studied.
Just these facts alone should be sufficient for any reasonable person to stop and reflect. However, the very diverse reaction people have against this code itself is a fulfillment of the prophecy.
You cannot escape from it. In fact, 19 is stamped in your brains. Our brains work on EXACTLY on 19 Rules of Inference. The list of this 19 Rules is on the cover of America's most popular logic textbook, which I too use in my symbolic logic classes.
Whenever I challenge those who ignorantly reject and mock this great sign, by claiming that they already believe in the Quran, I learn that their faith is also based on a number. Yet, the only number that is being rejected by the very Quran The number of people around them! They ignore the divinely designed numerical structure of the Quran, and yet they follow the crowd for their guidance.
"God has counted everything in numbers!" (722.
Oral debate inshallah will help those who are sincerely seeking the truth of the matter. I have no hope for those who are well described by
7146 I will divert from My signs those who are arrogant on earth unjustly, and if they see every sign they do not acknowledge it, and if they see the path of guidance they do not take it as a path; and if they see the path of straying, they take it as a path. That is because they have denied Our signs and were heedless of them.
Peace,
EdipSalaam Edip,
You have my respect as you are working to preserve the system intact and all your articles are backed by well explained verses of the Qur?an. I, being on the receiving end, expect that you would rise above this quibble about the code 19, which appears to have become the driving force, and the Qur?an has been made subservient to code 19.
I do not say the no19 has no significance; in fact I do believe in the relevance of 19; a sign, as mentioned in the Qur?an, and have also watched documentary programmes on National TV proving this code in nature and Jews too believe in it as significant sign among many. To make it a big issue above the Qur'am is not a way forward.
I do not believe in belonging to any sect which is a group who take pride in something they have that separates them from the rest.Is it right to make it into a sect, taking pride promoting the code, rather than the message itself ?
peace -
Peace Edip,
If the Quran is God's word, and if the same Quran contains a verse "On it Nineteen" and explains the its role in powerful words to distinguish the acknowledging people from hypocrites and ingrates, and distinguish the progressives from the regressive ones, then it is beyond me to understand those who deem it irrelevant or unimportant.
The counting of 19 is deemed by 7431 as ONLY a "fitna", in other words an attractive temptation to people who are attracted to it (you know who they are).
Especially, after learning that the first and the most repeated verse of the Quran has exactly 19 letters and the number of chapters in the Quran 114 too is multiple of this number, and many more simple facts that can be easily verified and many complex facts that can be studied.
Just these facts alone should be sufficient for any reasonable person to stop and reflect. However, the very diverse reaction people have against this code itself is a fulfillment of the prophecy.How about those facts the number of letters in the great reading is not a multiple of 19 and the number of words in the great reading too is not a multiple of 19. In fact, I guarantee that for every 1 of the so called facts that you advertize there are 18 facts that are not multiples of 19. All you are doing is using mindless trial and error and touting successful trials while hiding failed trials. You know that what I am saying is true. If you disagree then please be honest and share your failed trials so that we can see the ratio.
You cannot escape from it. In fact, 19 is stamped in your brains. Our brains work on EXACTLY on 19 Rules of Inference. The list of this 19 Rules is on the cover of America's most popular logic textbook, which I too use in my symbolic logic classes.
There are many more theories on logic and how the brain works that don't have 19 of anything. Again, if you look in any random sample, the frequency of 19 divisibles is going to be 1 out of 19. It is not my problem that you are obsessed with the 1 and therefore never see or mention the other 18.
Whenever I challenge those who ignorantly reject and mock this great sign, by claiming that they already believe in the Quran, I learn that their faith is also based on a number. Yet, the only number that is being rejected by the very Quran The number of people around them! They ignore the divinely designed numerical structure of the Quran, and yet they follow the crowd for their guidance.
The ignorant majority in fact believes in numerology codes when they see it like mosquitos attracted to a bug zapper. Many Sunnis believe in Code 19 like many Christians and Jews believe in the Bible Code and both believe in the significance and relevance of such codes as signs and in sensationalized TV documentaries that cater to the ignorants. This is why you will never find a decent academic journal publishing such crap.
"God has counted everything in numbers!" (722.
Indeed, the god doesn't say that he counted everything in multiples of 19 as you imagine. In fact, I am certain that the way the god counts things is not even the same as the way humans count. I am sure that he doesn't need to use a base-10 system or a cumbersome Abjad system like that of Code 19.
Oral debate inshallah will help those who are sincerely seeking the truth of the matter. I have no hope for those who are well described by
7146 I will divert from My signs those who are arrogant on earth unjustly, and if they see every sign they do not acknowledge it, and if they see the path of guidance they do not take it as a path; and if they see the path of straying, they take it as a path. That is because they have denied Our signs and were heedless of them.Indeed, they don't see any signs because they are only attracted to "fitna"/attractive temptations. The Greek pagans who invented your Gematria did the same exact thing before you.
Edip, instead of wasting your time on useless rhetoric, you should start to document the failed trials that Dr. Khalifa and you had during your trial and error searches for the Code. You should also try to translate 7431 in a believable way that doesn't mess up the clear cause and effect relationship in the passage. Finally, you should ponder on the following questions so that you don't get in trouble if I decide to ask you about them during the debate
- How are Matres Lectionis used in the great reading?
- Why are the Arabic letters which don't have an equivalent in the Hebrew alphabet relegated to the end of the Abjad system?
- Conventional letter orders, which have to be memorized, are typical of school-taught literacy. The order is transmitted systematically and universally in formal teaching. This is what makes them useable as a numbering system in Greek and Hebrew. How was this possible in the case of the Arabian dialects which were not taught in school prior to the revelation of the great reading?
Peace,
Ayman
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Salaam dc2, This is what it says on top of this forum About us a forum for monotheists, and discussion of Islam based on The Quran. As a result of a discussion you learn and contribute, where as the debate it?s about two parties, set in their ways, not budging from their stand point. This dispute is more like two US presidential hopefuls trying to win voters. peace
Dear Farida, what about you?
What about your glass house(s)?
Or What about your iron house(s)?
Are you "set in your own ways?"If you are "set in your own ways," then according to your own logic you are not worth listening; fix yourself first.
If you are NOT "set in your own ways," then, this debate is for you; those who do not "set in their own ways" should listen both parties who are "set in their own ways" to find out a way to settle or justify their own unsettled position.
Please before jumping on the keyboard to criticize people, think!
Peace,
Edip -
Salaam
Ayman did not like my acknowledgement of the code 19 and consider ?s the educational programme on TV I mentioned ?sensationalized TV documentaries that cater to the ignorant.
Edip considers me unsettled who needs fixing because I objected to this debate If you are "set in your own ways," then according to your own logic you are not worth listening; fix yourself first.?
This is interesting I have here two brilliant minds angry with me and I never thought that my views were worth this reaction of even acknowledgment by them. So with all due respect I will like Ayman & Edip to knows that
I read article by both and often pick the best from both side
I have pretty good idea what they are likely to argue in the forthcoming debate.
I never expected a conciliatory response from either
I may be ignorant who needs fixing but I refuse to follow their respective sects.
peace -
Peace --
It?s clear the Quran structure is mathematical. This includes ALL verses in surah 9.
The trial is on those who impose what words should add up to 19, eliminating verses to make themselves into false messengers, extrapolating nonsense outside the book to mislead people, etc...
19 is only a prime number/checksum as is 12791. The structure/symmetry is one proof amongst many...
Surah... #Verses... S+V... 57 Even... 57 Odd
1............7...............8............8.............
2..........286..........288..........288..........
3..........200..........203.....................2039..........129..........138..........138...........
110..........3..........113.....................113
111..........5..........116..........116..........
112..........4..........116..........116..........
113..........5..........118..........118..........
114..........6..........120..........120..........6555.......6236....12791.......6236.....6555
6236 6555 12791 = 19 x 328245026989
6555 = 19 x 345
114 = 19 x 6
57 = 19 x 3Here is the entire structure in the link below...
Quran - 893
WaalshshafAAi waalwatri
And/by the even, and the odd.Go figure...893 = 19 x 47
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Peace --
It?s clear the Quran structure is mathematical. This includes ALL verses in surah 9.
The trial is on those who impose what words should add up to 19, eliminating verses to make themselves into false messengers, extrapolating nonsense outside the book to mislead people, etc...
19 is only a prime number/checksum as is 12791. The structure/symmetry is one proof amongst many...
Surah... #Verses... S+V... 57 Even... 57 Odd
1............7...............8............8.............
2..........286..........288..........288..........
3..........200..........203.....................2039..........129..........138..........138...........
110..........3..........113.....................113
111..........5..........116..........116..........
112..........4..........116..........116..........
113..........5..........118..........118..........
114..........6..........120..........120..........6555.......6236....12791.......6236.....6555
6236 6555 12791 = 19 x 328245026989
6555 = 19 x 345
114 = 19 x 6
57 = 19 x 3Here is the entire structure in the link below...
Go figure...893 = 19 x 47
I never got into that 19 thing.
Maybe its because I am bad in math and numbers brickwall
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Peace --
It?s clear the Quran structure is mathematical. This includes ALL verses in surah 9.
The trial is on those who impose what words should add up to 19, eliminating verses to make themselves into false messengers, extrapolating nonsense outside the book to mislead people, etc...
19 is only a prime number/checksum as is 12791. The structure/symmetry is one proof amongst many...
Here is the entire structure in the link below...
Go figure...893 = 19 x 47
Salaam Nun,
Good to see you back; I was wondering where you?d disappeared to. Thank God you got treated in time and I hope you are feeling fine now. Now you will have to make up for your missed fast in the shorter winter days .
I see you have done your usual calculations which is beyond me, as last I did such long and extensive calculations was when I had to tutor my daughter.
I simply see code 19 as one sign among many, and glorify the Lord Who balances everything in the right proportions. I do not see it as a the driving force, which should govern the Qur?an verses. What are your views about it?Some time back I saw a very good series of programmes on TV, mainly to do with nature around us and from space to earth. In that series I watched one programme featuring the mathematical code in nature around us.
They showed sun flowers and first round of seeds in the centre of the flower and how it kept increasing, a form that onward they showed same pattern in many flowers and surrounding us I can?t remember if it was about code 19, but it was fascinating. Recently I have seen few a more U tube video, and heard about someone call Rushid who has done a translation of the Qur'an. If he has done good he will find his reward with God other than that I do not see a reason to pay much attention to the followers of code 19.peace
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Peace everyone,
They showed sun flowers and first round of seeds in the centre of the flower and how it kept increasing, a form that onward they showed same pattern in many flowers and surrounding us
It is called the Fibonacci pattern or the Golden Ratio
http//www.world-mysteries.com/sci_17.htm
http//britton.disted.camosun.bc.ca/fibslide/jbfibslide.htm
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fibonacci_number#Fibonacci_numbers_in_nature
http//www.mathsisfun.com/numbers/nature-golden-ratio-fibonacci.html
http//www.math.uiuc.edu/~gfrancis/math306/math306web/GoldenRatioPeteWintermute.htm
Because we are asked to ponder on God's creation in al-quran, and we are told that God's signs are present in the horizons and within us, we should also make the "Fibonacci Numbers" and "Golden Ratio" our new gods and start worshipping them too in addition to 19. hail
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Peace everyone,
It is called the Fibonacci pattern or the Golden Ratio
http//www.world-mysteries.com/sci_17.htm
http//britton.disted.camosun.bc.ca/fibslide/jbfibslide.htm
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fibonacci_number#Fibonacci_numbers_in_nature
http//www.mathsisfun.com/numbers/nature-golden-ratio-fibonacci.html
http//www.math.uiuc.edu/~gfrancis/math306/math306web/GoldenRatioPeteWintermute.htm
Because we are asked to ponder on God's creation in al-quran, and we are told that God's signs are present in the horizons and within us, we should also make the "Fibonacci Numbers" and "Golden Ratio" our new gods and start worshipping them too in addition to 19. hail
Salaam truthseeker11,
Thank you for giving me the link; as I said I was not sure if it's about code 19 and its good of you to clarify it. As for belief this is what I said regarding the followers of code 19They showed sun flowers and first round of seeds in the centre of the flower and how it kept increasing, a form that onward they showed same pattern in many flowers and surrounding us I can?t remember if it was about code 19, but it was fascinating. Recently I have seen few a more U tube video, and heard about someone call Rushid who has done a translation of the Qur'an. If he has done good he will find his reward with God other than that I do not see a reason to pay much attention to the followers of code 19.
peace
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And I think a code in the reading would be a very powerful argument against those who think the reading was written by humans.
It could be. But it cannot prove that it was written by God. Or that it was written by a benevolent creature/being. So in the end you always have to go back to the CONTENT of the book to judge it's veracity. So in the end the code is useless.
EDIT if there is a code, that is.
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Salaam Nun,
Good to see you back; I was wondering where you?d disappeared to. Thank God you got treated in time and I hope you are feeling fine now. Now you will have to make up for your missed fast in the shorter winter days P.
I see you have done your usual calculations which is beyond me, as last I did such long and extensive calculations was when I had to tutor my daughter.
I simply see code 19 as one sign among many, and glorify the Lord Who balances everything in the right proportions. I do not see it as a the driving force, which should govern the Qur?an verses. What are your views about it?Peace sister Farida and thank you for the well wishes. I?m doing good!
It?s only a pattern like looking at a 114 story building with numbered floors and apartments; wish there was a way to post an excel spread sheet. Basically remove change, delete, shift one verse, chapter, etc., the whole structure collapses. I have shown this pattern to numerous friends including Christians, and all were like ? that?s too cool.
What other book has sections chapters organized as such. Like a beautiful flower, butterfly, or anything else in nature. Of course we don?t worship the structures that we see only admire God?s work.
Peace Bigmo,
I never got into that 19 thing.
Maybe its because I am bad in math and numbers brickwall
No need to understand math to see it -- only basic addition;
Add all chapters numbers 1 to 114 = 6555
Add all verses in each chapter = 6236
Add all chapters to number of verses = 12791Separate even and odd above
57 will be even which add up to exactly 6236 = number of verses
57 will be odd which add up to exactly 6555 = sum of all chaptersThe whole Quran has checkpoints/check sums divisible by 19.
Same principle as used in modern communication systems; example
I'm going to send you a string of numbers (1,2, 3, 6, 7,) and before sending first add them 1+2+3+6+7 = 19. Then I send you the numbers along with 19.
When you get them you add them up and check to see if thier sum is 19.
This tells you that the numbers (i.e. The Message) arrived error free.
Surah... #Verses... S+V... 57 Even... 57 Odd
1............7...............8............8.............
2..........286..........288..........288..........
3..........200..........203.....................2039..........129..........138..........138...........
110..........3..........113.....................113
111..........5..........116..........116..........
112..........4..........116..........116..........
113..........5..........118..........118..........
114..........6..........120..........120..........6555.......6236....12791.......6236.....6555
6236 6555 12791 = 19 x 328245026989
6555 = 19 x 345
114 = 19 x 6
57 = 19 x 3Peace
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Greetings of peace,
- The code shows us that there are patterns throughout the quran - and that is fact. For example http//19.org/index.php?id=14,31,0,0,1,0
(I myself, don't fully agree with "discoveries" that use alphabet sequence/numbering system, since this could be changed/chosen by people who do the test to make the end result divisible. However, there are many other purely scripture related patterns discovered that are not related to this, as some are shown in Edip's article in the link above.)
The counting of 19 is deemed by 7431 as ONLY a "fitna", in other words an attractive temptation to people who are attracted to it (you know who they are).
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The seeing of the pattern benefits as "and those who have faith would be increased in faith, and so that those who have been given the Scripture and the believers do not have doubt" (7431)
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If it was "fitna", it can't logically increase your faith nor remove your doubt.
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It "increases" faith in the sense that any normal reading/writing by humans would not have such patterns.
How about those facts the number of letters in the great reading is not a multiple of 19 and the number of words in the great reading too is not a multiple of 19. In fact, I guarantee that for every 1 of the so called facts that you advertize there are 18 facts that are not multiples of 19. All you are doing is using mindless trial and error and touting successful trials while hiding failed trials. You know that what I am saying is true. If you disagree then please be honest and share your failed trials so that we can see the ratio.
- The ratio of trail and errors until finding of each 19 related fact doesn't show that the pattern is false in the same way that the ratio of Thomas Edison's trial and error doesn't show that Tungsten doesn't work - it worked perfectly and was a great discovery. It is still fact that there are patterns, same as the light bulb still emits light.
There are many more theories on logic and how the brain works that don't have 19 of anything. Again, if you look in any random sample, the frequency of 19 divisibles is going to be 1 out of 19. It is not my problem that you are obsessed with the 1 and therefore never see or mention the other 18.
- This is not related to the pattern in the scripture.
The ignorant majority in fact believes in numerology codes when they see it like mosquitos attracted to a bug zapper. Many Sunnis believe in Code 19 like many Christians and Jews believe in the Bible Code and both believe in the significance and relevance of such codes as signs and in sensationalized TV documentaries that cater to the ignorants. This is why you will never find a decent academic journal publishing such crap.
Again, the significance is "and those who have faith would be increased in faith, and so that those who have been given the Scripture and the believers do not have doubt" (7431).
The code is not to make people beleive blindly in whatever was translated (as what people suggest in such ducumentaries), and you can't see the truth when believing blindly.
The code just makes more confidence that the text is preserved in some way. And, makes you have more confident that there are ways to infer a lot of truth/understanding from it - if God so wills.
Indeed, the god doesn't say that he counted everything in multiples of 19 as you imagine. In fact, I am certain that the way the god counts things is not even the same as the way humans count. I am sure that he doesn't need to use a base-10 system or a cumbersome Abjad system like that of Code 19.
God also didn't say that using tungsten would work for the bulb, but it is fact - under God's laws - that it works.
Humans can learn and seek the facts/patterns in God's laws - this is demonstrated in science, For example in Physics Newton's discovery "F=ma" shows how God's system works related to force, mass and acceleration.
In the same way, it is not said and not true that EVERYTHING is multiple of 19. It is multiple of 19 in relation to some topics, same as F=ma for certain topics only. Same as the bulb worked with certain metals only.
- How are Matres Lectionis used in the great reading?
- Why are the Arabic letters which don't have an equivalent in the Hebrew alphabet relegated to the end of the Abjad system?
- Conventional letter orders, which have to be memorized, are typical of school-taught literacy. The order is transmitted systematically and universally in formal teaching. This is what makes them useable as a numbering system in Greek and Hebrew. How was this possible in the case of the Arabian dialects which were not taught in school prior to the revelation of the great reading?
(I myself, don't fully agree with "discoveries" that use alphabet sequence/numbering system, since this could be changed/chosen by people who do the test to make the end result divisible. There are many other patterns discovered that are not related to this, as shown in Edip's article in the link above.)
I see clear patterns in the many other purely scripture-based facts.
Peace,
Zidane. -
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I disagree because a code that would rule out human authorship would leave us with just one intelligent alternative the deity.
Really? What about the possibility of intelligent life beyond our planet? What about Gods that are not benevolent? There are infinite possibilities.
You are making an assumption that the only thing that can exist that is more intelligent than us is THE God the quran describes.I don't think there is a code, but if there was, and if it really is beyond the scope of humans, then it only proves that it is created by something more intelligent than us. That's it. Anything else is just an assumption.
To make the conclusion that it is written by a benevolent, all-loving God or whatever, you have to READ it and judge it by the content.
If the content is true, then it doesn't matter if there is a code or not, people should believe in it. So really the code has no purpose. -
Peace to all,
Lobster, if their is a code in the Quran beyond our intelligence, then it would prove exactly what it claims, it must be intelligent enough to embed the code, which would prove its beyond our current level of intelligence, and if this is true, why would it claim that it is God, and that their is only one God, this must be true also , and it must also be benevolent because that is exactly what it claims to be in the Quran, and whatever this omniscient being is it must be the only one, since it claims it is the only one, and if this werent true then we would have many other similar books with different claims to being an all powerful God in contrast to the one GOd, so where are these other books sent to us by another omniscient being that says the God of the Quran is wrong, and if it is just some intelligent alien then why does this divine being know us as humans and what we feel and think better than we even know ourselves, whoever this being is it seems to be closer to me than my jugular vein, and knows our hearts and thoughts better than all of us together could ever achieve, pretty good for a smart alien, somehow he seems to be more like a creator of us to know us so well.
Kurt
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Peace to all,
Lobster, if their is a code in the Quran beyond our intelligence, then it would prove exactly what it claims, it must be intelligent enough to embed the code, which would prove its beyond our current level of intelligence, and if this is true, why would it claim that it is God, and that their is only one God, this must be true also , and it must also be benevolent because that is exactly what it claims to be in the Quran, and whatever this omniscient being is it must be the only one, since it claims it is the only one, and if this werent true then we would have many other similar books with different claims to being an all powerful God in contrast to the one GOd, so where are these other books sent to us by another omniscient being that says the God of the Quran is wrong, and if it is just some intelligent alien then why does this divine being know us as humans and what we feel and think better than we even know ourselves, whoever this being is it seems to be closer to me than my jugular vein, and knows our hearts and thoughts better than all of us together could ever achieve, pretty good for a smart alien, somehow he seems to be more like a creator of us to know us so well.
Kurt
Peace Kurt,
Well there is something called LYING.
But you proved my point. You have come to the conclusion that these claims must be true because of the content. You say that it knows us better than ourselves. That's an observation based on careful reading - not on counting numbers.The fact is that if there are beings out there who are more intelligent than us other than god, and there CAN be, then there also CAN be a book which contains such a code but what is says is utter crap.
In the end, it all comes down to reading the words, not counting numbers and looking for patterns.
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Really? What about the possibility of intelligent life beyond our planet?
There is zero evidence that aliens sent us the reading. Only Raelians and pseudo-archaeologists think there's evidence that aliens made the universe and gave us our religions.
What about Gods that are not benevolent? There are infinite possibilities.
I think the orderliness and the perfection in the laws of nature preclude the possibility of there being more than one god.
You are making an assumption that the only thing that can exist that is more intelligent than us is THE God the quran describes.
I know I am, and I believe I'm making an educated and intelligent assumption.
I don't think there is a code, but if there was, and if it really is beyond the scope of humans, then it only proves that it is created by something more intelligent than us. That's it. Anything else is just an assumption.
I think the one assumption I'm making is better than all other possible assumptions. I could be wrong though.
To make the conclusion that it is written by a benevolent, all-loving God or whatever, you have to READ it and judge it by the content.
I agree.
If the content is true, then it doesn't matter if there is a code or not, people should believe in it. So really the code has no purpose.
The content may be true, but even humans are capable of producing truthful content. I believe there is evidence of divine authorship in the reading apart from a code that probably doesn't exist, but I think a code in the reading would go a long way in proving the deity's claim that the reading couldn't possibly be written by humans which would make the code very useful indeed.
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Salaam Nun,
Good to see you back; I was wondering where you?d disappeared to. Thank God you got treated in time and I hope you are feeling fine now. Now you will have to make up for your missed fast in the shorter winter days P.
I see you have done your usual calculations which is beyond me, as last I did such long and extensive calculations was when I had to tutor my daughter.
I simply see code 19 as one sign among many, and glorify the Lord Who balances everything in the right proportions. I do not see it as a the driving force, which should govern the Qur?an verses. What are your views about it?Some time back I saw a very good series of programmes on TV, mainly to do with nature around us and from space to earth. In that series I watched one programme featuring the mathematical code in nature around us.
They showed sun flowers and first round of seeds in the centre of the flower and how it kept increasing, a form that onward they showed same pattern in many flowers and surrounding us I can?t remember if it was about code 19, but it was fascinating. Recently I have seen few a more U tube video, and heard about someone call Rushid who has done a translation of the Qur'an. If he has done good he will find his reward with God other than that I do not see a reason to pay much attention to the followers of code 19.peace
Peace )