Hot/"ramadan" Answer
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Peace
This is a response to Ayman's post.
Anwar, as I said and you admitted, you are following the Ancient Egyptian calendar, which is fine but then you have to acknoweldge its obvious
I did not admit I was following the egyptian calender. Go back to my post and read carefully. I said
By coincidence this happened to be the old egyptian system.
So if you are insinuating that my main motive here is to adopt the Egyptian calendar, as I think you are, this is incorrect. As i stated, this is COINCIDENCE.Also, it is really no different than taking the five days and add them randomly to some of your 30 day months to make some of them 31 like the Gregorian calendar.
Again, that would be the case if I were trying to invent a calendar system. But I am not trying to invent anything. I am just following the Quranic clues. I have made i clear that the Quran promotes a 30 day shahr. So adding days to these thirty days and calling it a shahr would be unquranic and contradictory to the Quran. These 5 days at the end of teh 12th shahr are not included in any shahr and are naturally there. I am not adding or subtracting anything, they are just there, and that is not a problem. This has nothing to do with a Gregorian calendar but everything to do iwth a year. Solar years can be based on a full revolution of either of the two solstices (winter to winter or summer to summer) or the equinoxes (fall to fall or spring to spring). Or it can be the sum of those day 365.25 starting from any point in the year. Don't try to tack Gregorian onto me and make it seem like I'm just copying. That is a negtive and an incorrect assumption.
You would end up basically with something that resembles very much the present Gregorian calendar and that has very little to do with the great reading. This is why you are comparing it to the Gregorian Calendar and saying witnessing September 2009.
Alright hold the wild assumptions about my motives back. They seem to only smear me in the eyes of others. My conclusions have nothing to do with the Gregorian calendar, please get that out of the conversation. The fact that I mentioned September was only to say that whatever calendar is being used once you have some predictability you can witness future months, days, events, etc. Please do not try to associate me and my motives somehow with imitating the Gregorian calendear.
What you ignore is that September 2009 is completely arbitrary. It depends on when the new year was made to start, the order of the months, and on how the "5 missing" days were distributed.
I have not ignored this, nor do I fail to understand that. You read way too deeply into what I meant by September. Again, it was only to prove that once a calendar is predictable you can be a witness to future months, events, days etc. Hence there is no need to let a month, day or event pass in order to be a witness to it. As for the 5 days being distributed throughout the months in the Gregorian version of the Solar calender I disagree with this from a Quranic standpoint, obviously because a month is 30 days as the Quran implies it. So what they did was a manipulation to fit their own purposes. So lahum deenuhum, good on them, but it is not Quranic and it was not necessary.
Had the Romans decided to name January as September and vice versa then you would now be talking about January 2009. Also, had the Julian calendar still been in use then you would be more than 10 days over.
Again, for the reasons I mentioned the month September, any month could fit. I could used january, march, april, neesaan, huzairaan, or even months from the Jewish calendar. None of that matters. I have explained above twice already why I mentioned september. I hope you understand now and won't use it against me.
Your problem is that your entire calendar is based on an over and over again discredited idea of how fasting and feeding the poor relate. But even if it was not completely discredited as you imagine, then still it is only ONE factor and you completely ignore all the other factors.
I don't want to go in a back and forth where I say it wasn't discredited and you say it was and you say I'm in denial and then I say you're in denial. That's futile. I have ignored no factors, but you will put that into doubt. I only ask that those who are sincere read my posts and decide for themselves. I would also ask you to study what i've said more carefully. But you don't have to respond to that petition. It is your personal decision.
I think that what Truthseeker means to say is how do you witness those 30 days since they are completely arbitrary and disconnected from the moon cycle.
There is no need to mention a moon cycle here. Just like the word in English used to mean moon cycle and now means number of days that approximate a lunar cycle, using the dictionaries, the Quran and logic it is easy to see that shahr can also mean 29 or 30 days, and that the Quran promotes the shahr of 30 days in its context.
From what point do you start counting those 30 days and which 5 days out of the year are going to be redundant and you are going to ignore them and do they have to be consecutive and why.
Now you see I have never said we should ignore these days. Never. I don't believe in saying 'oh no, don't count that.' as with the 13th full moon issue. I am saying that whereas we must observe them and acknowledge them they do not constitute a month. That is not ignorng them. That is stating a fact. 1/6 of a month is just not a month, just like a half a century is not a century. So even with those 5 extra days if we ask the question how many months are there, we still only have 12 months in a year despite those last 5 days. I'm saying include them, count them in. Naturally and obviously they are apart of the year but recognize that 5 days is not a month and therefore 5 extra days does not add or take away form the 12 month count in the year.
These are some of the major problems with your calendar that you have never answered. They are also the same exact problems that make the Gregorian calendar months arbitrary. Also, you ignore that you would need a leap year exactly like the Gregorian calendar but in your case with 6 redundant days instead of 5 every four years. So what you are presenting is basically a poor rehash of the Gregorian calendar (it too was originally adapted from the Egyptian calendar).
I have indeed answered all your questions. Furthermore there is no need for a calculated addition of a leap year because if it takes an extra day to reach the solstice or equinox then that day will naturally add itself as we wait for the solstice or the equinox. After all this is a purely solar calendar. I used 365 as a general count for a year as is generally done. Do not take that literally. If from solstice to solstice it takes 366 days then there will be 6 days left over. There is no problem, the count of the months still remains 12 and the solstices and the equinoxes are the guide.
I looked on wiki and here is the reason the gregorian is like it is
The Gregorian calendar was designed to keep the vernal equinox on or close to March 21, so that the date of Easter (celebrated on the Sunday after the 14th day of the Moon (i.e. a full moon) that falls on or after March 21) remains correct with respect to the vernal equinox.[3I can assure you that the Quran and the true recording of time are my only concerns here, not Easter.
Here are the diffrent natural solar years taken from http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tropical_year
vernal equinox 365.242 374 04 + 0.000 000 103 38?a days
northern solstice 365.241 626 03 + 0.000 000 006 50?a days
autumn equinox 365.242 017 67 0.000 000 231 50?a days
southern solstice 365.242 740 49 0.000 000 124 46?a daysIf one of these years drifts a day over a period of hundreds or thousands of years, then we just wait an extra 6 days (instead of a more common 5) until the completion of one of the above events and problem solved, we still just have 12 months in the year. There is no motive here other than having a correct and Quranic way of assessing the solar years. That year is 12 shahr of 30 days with 5 or possibly 6 transitional days that tag the end of the 12th month and that naturally do not make up a month.
As always . .
sun Godbless,
Anwar -
"Blessed is the night when we revealed Quran".
Was it sent down in a month, or all at once placed in mohammad'(pbuh) heart? I think the verse clearly tells us that it came down in a night, and which was it ? Most probably The night of Full Red moon.
Isn't it plain and simple?
But we keep searching Kadar, during the odd nights in the last ashra of an imaginary month Ramadhan.
peace
siki
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If we start counting month from shahrr, as per God's instructions, whenever we witness a full moon we would say
Oh" a month has gone by (every new full moon would ring the bell of a month in our brains)
Over a reasonable period of time the primary meaning (full moon) would be relegated to secondary and we would start to identify shahrr with a month.
Most likely this is how the primary meanings got corrupted.
peace siki
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If God tells us "that he revealed Quran in the night of shahrr" ( Full moon) and that particular Shahrr (1 out 12) was the Ramadhan one (Red moon) , so fast for days who so ever witnesses it,,,
we will start calling that particular shahrr, as the Ramadhan one
Over a period of time, we will name that particular month as "Ramadhan" and its original meaning would be lost, And all what would come down to us would be a "month of Ramadhan". Which , when started rotating, completely lost its Marker(Red moon) and hence its original meaning bite dust.
peace
siki -
Peace All,
Is FULL MOON called badr or shahr in Arabic? Can somebody explain the difference please?
Moon has different stages. The cresent stages , and the Badr stages, when it is like a cresent (6-8 days) wanning or waxing, it could be called Ahillat(cresent) then we have a roundish figure for about 6-8 days in total (The badar stages) Out of these Badars, One is Full moon known as Shahrr, which could serve as marker for month count.(GOd's choice)
A very logical choice indeed, we cant miss it , it is available for Maximum possible time , and is The brightest.
And now, go find The cresent moon , specially the one which is running after the sun and vanishes almost along the sun ???
Like every year, last night, there has been a mess up here in pakistan for locating this so called cresent moon, The Met had declared, "As the moon is on zero deggree, so there is absouletly no chance of its sighting"
The Four comitties consisting of dozens of Mulllahs sitting on top of towers with telescopes , declared officially at 8 PM that no moon sighting, fast tomorrow ,hence people went for salat ul Taraweeh, came back and slept.
At 2315 hrs we were woken up by the news that the moon has been sighted by some one , hence the Govt has declared Eid tomorrow, The Govt, probably did it under pressure from the Fact , "That how can there be a difference of two days between Saudi Eid and pakistani Eid?
I picked up my sleeping kids, threw them in the car, and left for my family home (in another town) at 1 AM, and reached at dawn.
The sleeping shopkeepers rushed to their shops and opened them for this so called "Chand Raat"(Moon night) where as this "Chand Raat" should be the Full bright moon night. Not the NO Chand Raat
What a total nonsense this is. If we don't have the ability to decipher GOd's words with logic and reason , sure we will be messed up.
peacesiki
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Anti Ayman camp! I wish you peace and tranquality.
How do you witness a man made arbitrary month? Do you think God used this word (witness), "Just casually" I think you guys have stayed in the forum long enough to witness , "That His choice of words is absoutely precise and Delibrate".
The wisdom behind each usage, "sometimes we know, and some times we find" ! But is NEVER, NEVER CASUAL, and when we dont find (wisdom) "please keep striving to find" , because his words are balanced to perfection.
Evidences are just too many, "Come on friends, If you still stick with the traditonal fast, I think your logic circuit is either shut down or due for a major Overhaul.
siki
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Dear Ayman
The more I dig this subject, the more proofs pop out in fovour of your thinking line . But remember , i am not with you , I am with the truth, and looking for a chance to hop over to otherside the moment I get an undisputable proof OTHERWISE.
If you recall , all these years , I never approved , nor opposed your Red moon thinking, because it deserved a fair chance for verification. On the other hand, when , like all/any of us mortals, you fell , and illogically defended your logic on differnt subjects, I pounded you.
But so for , I think , you pulled this one Right, and hence deserve pat on your back for the hard work and perseverence.
Two thumbs up for Dr Ayman handshake
siki
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Peace all,
The more I dig this subject, the more proofs pop out in fovour of your thinking line . But remember , i am not with you , I am with the truth, and looking for a chance to hop over to otherside the moment I get an undisputable proof OTHERWISE.
These are also my exact sentiments and why I am still following this thread as long as there are comments. I continue to see more and more evidence that 'shahr' is 'full moon'.
To anwar,
Quote
If shahr means "30 day month", then how can we witness such an 30-day month as per 2185?The discussion on the meaning of shahida was fruitless to me. The word can be used to mean to vouch for, to experience, to witness, to see etc. etc. We are all witnessing September right now and we are going to witness October tomorrow. What does that mean in the context of 2185? If you are going to be alive and able for 30 days during your summer to fast, then fast those 30 days. There is no need to try to make shahida witness in a way that we only witness a day when we complete it. That is just not good sense. You witness the day as it begins. You can vouch for it as well if you know of it beforehand, and you can witness to its passing and your having lived through it afterwards. But to make shahida a witnessing that is something magical, special or something that can only be done after the minute, hour or day has passed is an incorrect limitation of the word."
I'm only replying because I was part of that discussion and I would like to ask, how do you ignore that the reading CLEARLY uses the verb 'shaheda' in different ways? I gave those examples. How can that be fruitless? I know that arranging similar verses is KEY to trying to properly understand how the god is using certain terminology and not that I just put what I want to be there, that would not be a just investigation of the truth would it? To me, this is one of the big supports for 'full moon' and if this is considered a non-issue by those who say month and they don't care how the reading uses this verb, I simply cannot accept that it doesn't matter and it shows me the weakness of this stance.
Another point that came to mind, it may have been mentioned before, is how do we reconcile in 2184 the god begins with "ayyaam ma'duudaat" and the interpretation of 'month? There was a point about just the form of the word ma'duudaat provides a clue since this form is used for representing a count from 3 - 10. Numbers over 10 until 20 and from 20 to 99 and so on use different forms when using them in expressions. The duals have their own form. I love the preciseness of arabic. Check this out for yourself in the great reading. Can we say that the arabic here doesn't matter, that the arabic grammarians know arabic better than the Creator? I'd like honest answers since I am keeping the door open.
Umm Tariq
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quote by farida
Salaam,Working toward taqwah fasting for 30 days.
Tired, worn out, yet happy.
Time to reflect what we achieved and celebrate.
A special greetings to those who upheld the true fast;D peace ;D
! Ever wonder, why should God render us useless for 1/12th of our lifetime?
If you have ever been in any islamic country, specially in an arabian state during the so called month of Ramadhan, you would know it.
Cycling for 10 days in extreme sun weather during a longest possible day , should be good enough.
hmm Just my thoughts.siki
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;D
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quote by farida
Salaam,Working toward taqwah fasting for 30 days.
Tired, worn out, yet happy.
Time to reflect what we achieved and celebrate.
A special greetings to those who upheld the true fast! Ever wonder, why should God render us useless for 1/12th of our lifetime?
If you have ever been in any islamic country, specially in an arabian state during the so called month of Ramadhan, you would know it.
Cycling for 10 days in extreme sun weather during a longest possible day , should be good enough.
hmm Just my thoughts.siki
Month of Ramadan is a Festive season here the nights are full of enjoyment try if you don?t trust me
eat -
Month of Ramadan is a Festive season here the nights are full of enjoyment try if you don?t trust me
eatYa right, eat and drink eat the whole night, literally as per his commandment in 2-185 and then sleep it off during the day.
pr Thanks to Allah for his gift of black gold, Me worry , Never, enjoy till the stocks last, or captured by Americans, in that case I/we shall ride back to deserts, long live our dear old friends camels.
siki
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Umm Tariq,
I'm only replying because I was part of that discussion and I would like to ask, how do you ignore that the reading CLEARLY uses the verb 'shaheda' in different ways? I gave those examples. How can that be fruitless? I know that arranging similar verses is KEY to trying to properly understand how the god is using certain terminology and not that I just put what I want to be there, that would not be a just investigation of the truth would it? To me, this is one of the big supports for 'full moon' and if this is considered a non-issue by those who say month and they don't care how the reading uses this verb, I simply cannot accept that it doesn't matter and it shows me the weakness of this stance.
I take this stance because I do not believe that the Quran defines words. It uses Arabic words in the same ways that can be used outside of the context of the Quran. So examples on how the Quran defines the verb shahida or any other verb or noun from its usage is futile and a mute methodology to me because the Quran uses its words and verbs in the same way the Classical Arabic language (represented by pre-Quranic and early Islamic Arab society) can use them, not the other way around. The comment was not meant to offend you, but definitions of words based solely on interpretations of Quranic usages of those words is fraught with holes, potential problems and room for abuse. I only need remind of the Salat as connection or method theories to prove my point. The Quran is not a dictionary.
Another point that came to mind, it may have been mentioned before, is how do we reconcile in 2184 the god begins with "ayyaam ma'duudaat" and the interpretation of 'month? There was a point about just the form of the word ma'duudaat provides a clue since this form is used for representing a count from 3 - 10. Numbers over 10 until 20 and from 20 to 99 and so on use different forms when using them in expressions. The duals have their own form. I love the preciseness of arabic. Check this out for yourself in the great reading. Can we say that the arabic here doesn't matter, that the arabic grammarians know arabic better than the Creator? I'd like honest answers since I am keeping the door open.
I dealt with the specifics of ma3dood/ma3doodah and the grammar of ma3doodaat. That definition of 3-10 was ONE possiblity of the meaning of the word and was not the deciding definition of the word. I showed in the very Arabic quoted here, by grace of Samia, from lisan al-3arab of how in the same parenthesis ma3doodaat had the general meanings of counted and numbered as well as the specific meaning of few. And I showed other examples of Classical Arabic grammar via the Quran where the feminine plural is used for plural inanimate objects, and specifically days. There is no preference for one form of ma3dood or another. These forms are grammatically stable and equal to the form numbered in English. In some cases it means few and in others it just means limited. I could tell someone that their days are numbered and be saying that they will die soon or I can be saying that they will die eventually as all our numbers are limited. That is great material for a a cryptogram or a cipher but it is only great material because it is true. And this is the same case with ma3dood. We see this in everyday usage of the word 'numbered' and we need to expect that when we read the Quran's words.
Making a competitive comparison between arabic grammarians and the quran is completely illogical. The fact is that the Quran never dedicated itself to explaining Classical Arabic words and grammar, it just used them to get its point accross. Grammarians made it a point to record how Classical Arabic words were used and how its grammar was used. So it is never a Quran vs. Grammarian scenario, that sort of scenario is completely nonsensical. The fact is that the Quran borrowed words and their meanings from Classical Arabic in order to get its points accross in the book, and the grammarians dedicated themselves to how the Arabs who most represented and who were most connected to pre-Quranic Arabia (the linguistic birth ground of the Quran), and how they used their words and grammar.
So I've never denied that ma3doodaat can mean few (although the meaning of 3-10 was more connected to the possibly innovated Islamic concept of pilgrimage or at very least the pre-islamic pagan origin of the pilgrimage which would give it more validity as a definition). I have also never denied that shahr can mean full moon after I saw it in the Classical Arabic dictionaries with my own eyes. But it can also refer to crescent moons, potentially any moon phase (As it can be synonymous with qamar and hilaal. And hilaal can mean any moon phase as well), or the period from waxing crescent to new waxing crescent, or 29 sunset to sunset days which equal 30 sunrise to sunrise days.
The question here is what does the Quran mean when it refers to shahr. I think it is clear from all I have presented in my previous posts that the Quran prefers the meaning of 30 sunrise to sunrise days in its context. And I think it is confirmed in the fact that using this conclusion we will always only have and be able to count only 12 shahr in the year, not a shahr more or less. And so I don't have to explain later, the naturally occurring extra 5 or 6 days after the 12th shahr are never to be ignored but the fact is that they will never constitute a shahr or an extension of any shahr because the Quranically preferred shahr is 30 (sunrise to sunrise) days. No more, no less.
And as always . . . .
sun Godbless,
AnwarI hope you understand my points. Whether you agree with them or not is your decision.
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Peace Nun,
What menstruations are you talking about?
I was referring to 2228 in which "menstruations" is used for menstruating women in the same way as "shahr" is used i 654 for menopausal women whose menopause is in doubt. The usage of "menstruation" in 2228 implies it is a marker, hence the similar usage of "shahr" in the same context of determining interim after divorce in 654 implies that it is used as a marker also and the meaning of "full-moon" is more consistent with that kind of usage because both usages result in similar number of days.
The meaning of "month" in 654 would result in inconsistency because then the minimum waiting period for menstruating women would be the time period between 3 menstruations or approximately 56 days but the waiting period for menopausal women would be 90 days. Why can a menstruating woman wait for 56 days but a menopausal woman whose menopause is doubtful will have to wait 90 days?
Umm Tariq and Ayman have already addressed this issue before, and this is one of the points that proves that "shahr" most likely means "full-moon" in al-quran.
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Peace Siki,
I will not trust you when you say this. I honestly believe that I know better, and I only say believe instead of know because since we all see things with our own eyes, if you can't see what I'm seeing then that is what you know as well. And there's no point in getting into a you're right and I'm wrong back and forth. I'd be glad to give you the main reasons why this method of taking the Quran as a dictionary is a mistake and a wrongful imposition onto the book but I'm sure I've already communicated those reason to you in most part in my previous posts. So in respect of your right to choose your own path but also to show serious concern for your choice I'll leave it at a hmmmmm hmm I'd be open to any private conversation you'd like to have on the issue. And in the meanwhile I guess I'll just pray for what I believe to be your enlightenment on this issue pr
As always . . .
sun Godbless,
Anwar -
Peace Mr. progod,
Mr. Truthseeker11.
Preconceived notions; male chauvinism perhaps?
I find your repost of that issue to be quite disrespectful. To call them 30 day months and to deal with the issue as such is fine. But to call them Anwar months and to repost the wonderland comment is utterly disrespectful. Please take that Anwar month stuff out of there. It is a personal provocation towards me and I do not appreciate it.
I will take back the wonderland comment and apologize for that. As far as Anwar months is concerned, you should take pride in that. How is it disrespectful? Shahr has never meant "month that always has 30 days" in Classical Arabic. This idea is a new innovation by you and because you are the originator, it makes sense to call it "Anwar month". Einstein never got offended when people referred to his theory as "Einstein's theory" did he? What is wrong to refer to an idea by the name of the innovator? It makes it easier to refer to such an idea and I think you should be proud of that. However, I will refrain from using this term in our discussions.
And contradictions you have can be solved through seriously considering what you consider contradictions. I took the liberty in responding to the points below of taking out the disrespectful commentary.
Not replying to someone's constructive criticism when asked repeatedly to do so is also disrespectful, so thank you for finally responding.
This is not redundant God wants us to complete the month in fasting. It is an ecouragement to fast. Although God's book does repeat and clarify I don't find the book very redundant. But Classical Arabic does have seeminly redundant style but this is used for clarification of details as well.
Some redundancies are ridiculous. It is a ridiculous redundancy to say "complete the count" after saying "whoever among you witnesses the month of 30 days then fast it" (meaning fast for 30 days). The encouragement to fast is at the end of verse 2184 "And if you fast it is better for you if you knew". There is no clarification needed to complete the count if it is already stated to fast for 30 days. That is why "shahr" cannot mean "month of 30 days" in 2185 but can only mean "full-moon" because then there is no ridiculous redundancy.
Again this is not true. How many times have people, including Muslims said they were fasting the month of Ramadan? But are they fasting the nights as well? No. So are they lying? Are we lying when we say sunrise and sunset? So it is an expression that doesn't specifically have to mean to fast even the nights. Quranically, the Quran first says to fast the month and then clarifies on how to fast duriing it. Does to touch a person mean to touch their whole body? Same issue. Whatever confusion that would have been caused by this statement is cleared up in 2187.
You have given a wrong analogy. "Person" and "whole body" are different terms. When you say "fast for month of 30 days" it means fast non-stop for 30 days. "Fast it" does not mean "fast in it". If it had said "falyasum fihi", only then you had a point.
The other way it can make sense is if "shahr" is being used as a marker. For example I can say
"Independence day is July 4th, so celebrate it"
and then I can clarify to celebrate it by participating in a festival lasting 10 nights.
"Shahr" in 2185 is used in a similar fashion. It is used as an event or a marker which signals start of fasting and then it is clarified to fast for a few days. The only way we can fast it (the magical month of 30 days), in that sense, would be to start our fasting AFTER the 30 days are over. We will still fast for few days in the manner specified (dawn to sunset), but not for 30 days.
This question has been answered. Please refer to my previous posts. I will be glad to pm them to anyone interested or to post them again as quotes for those truly concerned.
No, this has not been answered. We can count a fraction of an object too in terms of that object. I know that 1/6 month is not a month but we can COUNT fractions of a unit in term of that unit. For example a hypothetical week can have 4 and a half days, so the count of days in that week will be 4 and 1/2 days. Similarly, if a month is always 30 days then the COUNT of months will be 12 and 1/6 months in a solar year and not 12.
If a month is 30 days then it cannot be 35 days. Hence the extra five days are not apart of any month. They are 5 days leading towards the end of the year. By coincidence this happened to be the old egyptian system. These days were not considered apart of any month. There are 12 months that are counted in the year and these last 5 days are just that, 5 days that conclude the year. The argument is mute because no one is saying that there will be a perfect 12 month system not even the Quran says that a year will be 12 months exactly. But whereas you have to in my opinion unquranically ignore the natural 13th moon in counting the full moons to calculate a year these 5 days are counted as what they are, 5 extra days, a transitionary period if you will. There is no unquranic 13th month here that has to be ignored and there are naturally just 12 months in the year.
We are asked to count 12 full-moons. It does not make a 13th full-moon unquranic. We just don't count it. The problem is that the extra full-moon cannot be a part of the previous full moon, but the extra 5 days can easily be a part of the previous month. It is you who is arbitrarily saying they cannot be a part of it. Thus there will be 11 months of 30 days in a year and the 12th month will have 35 or 36 days.
The Quran talks about the book being given to the last prophet all at once, and whereas most Muslims say it was over time I believe that verse is saying that it was revealed to him all at once, so 443 adn 971 pose a problem to traditional Islamic beliefs but not to mine. 876 and 7518 might be the clue to why a month is mentioned in 2185 as when the book was revealed. Any other verses i come accross that support this I will be sure to pass along. To me it would seem that the book was revealed to him the first night and repeated to him thoughout the 29 days afterwards.
876 and 7518 do not mention DESCENT. 2185 does not talk about repetition or compilation, it talks about DESCENT. 443 and 971 confirm that the DESCENT was in one night, so "shahr" in 2185 has to mean "full-moon" and not "month of 30 days"; otherwise you are creating a HUGE contradiction in al-quran. Therefore, "shahr" can only mean "full-moon" in al-quran.
The discussion on the meaning of shahida was fruitless to me. The word can be used to mean to vouch for, to experience, to witness, to see etc. etc. We are all witnessing September right now and we are going to witness October tomorrow. What does that mean in the context of 2185? If you are going to be alive and able for 30 days during your summer to fast, then fast those 30 days. There is no need to try to make shahida witness in a way that we only witness a day when we complete it. That is just not good sense. You witness the day as it begins. You can vouch for it as well if you know of it beforehand, and you can witness to its passing and your having lived through it afterwards. But to make shahida a witnessing that is something magical, special or something that can only be done after the minute, hour or day has passed is an incorrect limitation of the word.
I really don't see why they are magical? But if we are around for them then nash-hiduhum. We witness them. Not a big deal. In reality if we know about september of 2009 and when it will fall we nash-hiduhu (witness/vouch for it) also.
I find this argument somewhat silly knowing what shahida means. I don't really feel like this comment was made in order to recieve the obvious answer.
POINT # 1
As Ayman has pointed out already, your definition of "shahr" as a "month of 30 days" is completely arbitrary without any quranic backing. How can we witness an arbitrary man made time period of 30 days? This man made month of 30 days will fall on different days depending on when the month is arbitrarily started. You still haven't answered the question that Ayman asked When exactly will you start your arbitrary month of 30 days in the summer season? From what point will you start counting your 30 days? Please give quranic evidence for the exact time when you are going to start your arbitrary month.
POINT # 2
When you witness a day, yes you can witness it as soon as day starts becuse the end of the day is continuous with the start i.e. it is one unit. Month of 30 days, however, is different and made of 30 different units. You cannot witness a month of 30 days just on seeing the first day. ALL 30 DAYS HAVE TO BE WITNESSED IN ORDER TO WITNESS THE ARBITRARY MONTH OF 30 DAYS. The only way to fulfil 2185 will be to witness all the 30 days first and then start fasting, but then how long do we fast? If you start fasting during that 30 day month, then you will be violating the command to witness it first. Hence it is impossible witness the 30 day month before fasting AND fast during it. Therefore, "shahr" can only mean "full-moon" in al-quran.
No matter how many times you repeat your argument that fasting for one day is equivalent to feeding one person, it is not supported by al-quran. It does not matter what you believe. When we look at quranic evidence, according to 589 fasting for 3 days is equivalent to feeding 10 people so the ratio is 13.33. Hence, there is no fixed formula in al-quran for ratio of fasting to feeding people.
In 583-4, fasting and feeding people are both compensation for estranging one's wife, and are therefore EQUIVALENT. Similarly in 589, both fasting and feeding people are compensation for breaking oaths and are therefore EQUIVALENT. When things are equivalent, the order of mentioning them does not make any difference. No where in al-quran, other than 2184, is feeding people mentioned as a DIRECT COMPENSATION for fasting, so the formulas of 583-4 and 589 are not applicable to that situation at all, and thus cannot be used to derive an arbitrary man-made definition of a month.
Your definition of "shahr" also creates a major inconsistency in the interim after divorce. In 2228 "menstruations" is used for menstruating women in the same way as "shahr" is used in 654 for menopausal women whose menopause is in doubt. The usage of "menstruation" in 2228 implies it is a marker, hence the similar usage of "shahr" in the same context of determining interim after divorce in 654 implies that it is used as a marker also and the meaning of "full-moon" is more consistent with that kind of usage because both usages result in similar number of days.
The meaning of "month of 30 days" in 654 would result in inconsistency because then the minimum waiting period for menstruating women would be the time period between 3 menstruations or approximately 56 days but the waiting period for menopausal women would be 90 days. Why can a menstruating woman wait for 56 days but a menopausal woman whose menopause is doubtful will have to wait 90 days?
I do not believe that the Quran defines words. It uses Arabic words in the same ways that can be used outside of the context of the Quran. So examples on how the Quran defines the verb shahida or any other verb or noun from its usage is futile and a mute methodology to me because the Quran uses its words and verbs in the same way the Classical Arabic language (represented by pre-Quranic and early Islamic Arab society) can use them, not the other way around. The comment was not meant to offend you, but definitions of words based solely on interpretations of Quranic usages of those words is fraught with holes, potential problems and room for abuse.
On one hand you say the above, and then on the other hand you use al-quran to define "shahr" based on your faulty and defective deduction from 583-4 while ignoring 589. Is that not a hypocritical attitude to use al-quran to define a word (albeit in a faulty manner) and then ask others not to do it? NO CLASSICAL ARABIC DICTIONARY DEFINES SHAHR AS "A MONTH ALWAYS CONTAINING 30 DAYS". That is purely your novel innovation based solely on using al-quran in a faulty manner.