What is deen according to your understanding? Can we implement deen?
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Salaaman Khyaletanzim,
I am sorry brother... In other words, Deen = System, Program, Laws, Dos and Don't, etc...
Like If you do this, this will happen / you will be rewarded OR if you don't do this, you will be punished. Every Dos and Don't has been mentioned. That is Deen as per my understanding.
For example If you give in the way of Allah, it is like 700 times you get in return. And if you don't spend in the way of Allah, you have taken a step towards Jahannam.
Or If you do good, in return you will get 10 times of what you have done and if you do bad, in return you will get the same.
Hope it may help inshaAllah.
May Allah guide us all towards the Truth.
Regards,
mmKhanSalaam
Of courese we can implement deen see few examples for the smooth running in the UK
Park your car on a single yellow line you are allowed time to move but if it is double yellow line than penalty charge and if it on red line towed away.
When you borrow goods from the supermarket you are to pay for the goods or face charges for shoplifting.
When you make an agreement you honour it or face court for the breach of contract charge.
Rigth to enjoy freedom of speech and civil liberties unless
Nnuisance for your neighbour or your environment charges under Your Rights Under Noise & Statutory Nuisance Act 1993Drink and enjoy life but if you drive - face prohibition from driving depending on charge.punishment.
To maintain order
Bodily harm- assault, kill ?murder - steal- theft criminal offence, for t so on and onLaw of compensation. Trust law, inheritance law, .. etc etc etc.
For programming and conditioning
Good schools and universities for education
Recreation centres
Libraries
etc etc etc
so for implementing the deen we need rules and regulations, penalties and punishments, compensations, programming and conditionings with due regard for personal well being and safe and pleasent environment for the citizens.
Not to forget good citizenship awards and honours.
peace -
Your example was about laws that is "sharia" according to my understanding of Quran. Can you tell me If deen is what you say deen is then why God himself telling us that it cannot be forced?
To me it is same if it is system or way of God. I wanted elaboration on computer & program, mouse in my hand and free will what is what according your post Posted on September 20, 2008, 092214 PM. What about the next part of the question.
Thanks for agreeing. It is a pleasure to know that you are sure of deen at least.
@ someone
if deen is debt then does it mean that debt cannot be taken forcibly?
Regards.
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Your example was about laws that is "sharia" according to my understanding of Quran. Can you tell me If deen is what you say deen is then why God himself telling us that it cannot be forced?
Salaam
I took meaning from Wakas post (see below) and showed when deen means system and a similar system can be implemented that dose not mean everyone follows rules and regulations however if you look closely "deen Islam " it has got all what we need in modern system and it can be implemented.
= Dal-Ya-Nun = obedience/submissiveness, servility, religion, high/elevated/noble/glorious rank/condition/state, took/receive a loan or borrowed upon credit, become indebted, in debt, under the obligation of a debt, contract a debt, repay/reimburse a loan, rule/govern/manage it, possess/own it, become habituated/accustomed to something, confirmation, death (because it is a debt everyone must pay), a particular law/statute, system, custom/habit/business, a way/course/manner of conduct/acting, repayment/compensation.
peace
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Salaaman brother Khyaletanzin
To me it is same if it is system or way of God. I wanted elaboration on computer & program, mouse in my hand and free will what is what according your post Posted on September 20, 2008, 092214 PM. What about the next part of the question.
I don't say it is same as "Way of Allah". Deen are the rules or the correct word might be FORMULAS made by Allah. Like if you add 2 + 2 = The answer will be surely 4. We cannot change this formula because it has been made by Allah. So, the answer has to be 4. Entering the number is in your hands like I said a mouse of a computer But the calculation is based on the formulas made by Allah. And if anyone comes up with their own formulas or any other to please Allah or for whatever reasons, it will NOT gonna accept by Allah as in 385. That means formulas are already fixed and completed , which cannot be changed or modified.
I hope you understand what I meant. If it is not yet clear for you what I mean, please tell me about your knowledge of computers. If you got a good knowledge of computer, I will try to explain the computer example in other words, inshaAllah.
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As I said, deen is a system made by Allah and it has already been implemented by Allah. But for us, we have to understand it and do our deeds as per the program made in order to get success. Like for example Performing is Salaat al Juma is indeed a good deed. But can we perform it daily, because it is a good deed? No. It has been fixed on the day of Juma. This is a program, we cannot modify it.
We can show others this program and and the functions of this program to make them understand in order to use it correctly. But we cannot force them to follow it in the same way because everyone has given a free-will to follow the straight path or to take diversions.
May Allah guide us all towards the correct path.
Regards,
mmKhan -
Peace all,
6835
From this verse, we can see how "al-muslimeen" are contrasted with "al-moujrimeen"; this is to correct the end of my previous post as "moujrim" is referring to a criminal, opposed to ?muslim? meaning a peacemaker.
Now to your question Khyaletanzin ?if deen is debt then does it mean that debt cannot be taken forcibly??; Surely, in our social life, we are in debt to some and lending to others all the time; ?madina? coming from to same root as ?deen? refers to a place where everyone is indebted all the time for commodities, security, healthcare, education? this is the reason for money and thus work, taxes.. the economic system. If one doesn?t want to be indebted for such things, one can retreat from civilization and live a more simple life.
Even then, as we are some social creature, we have to live in a community. And even in the simplest community, each member has his own role to play, be it hunting, cooking, looking for water, defending the community?. This is to say that ultimately, nothing is free, and if you owe something to someone, then he has all the rights to claim it or its counterpart back from you, provided that proof is presented.
Having said that, I think that your question is more referring to the spiritual debt, or ?the debt? (ad-deen) as in the scripture, now things are different.
The all-giving creator provided for us everything even before we are able to recognize him as the giver, but also gave us the possibility to choose to payback or not in our lifetime. With all his might, he is giving us time to decide freely, then how can anyone else claim the right to force us payback our due to him instead of the creator?
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@ someone and All
My simple question was what is Deen and why it is said that "No force in Deen". What is the reason or intention of God for combining these two words Deen and Force in this sentence? My intention was that one should explain keeping in mind what is said but it seems that everyone is telling me his understanding of Deen and disregarding the actual sentence. If one has different translation then please post your translation and then explain.
Till now few said that it is a system and few said religion and someone as debt but i am still in confusion that what it actually means according to you people.
Please answer clearly keeping in mind the sentence because in my understanding one cannot disregard any part of Quran at all times and it does not have any contradictions.
- If it is a system or God tells his system in Quran then not forcing it will be useless.
- If it is a Religion or God tells his Religion in Quran then not forcing it will be useless.
- If it is a debt then not forcing can be understood but if it is only meant to be God's debt.
My understanding is that Deen is a way of God told to us In Quran for our betterment and that is why it is been told clearly that it cannot be forced on others in any way.
Regards.
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Salaaman Khyaletanzim,
First of all let me know what exactly do you want to know? You said
but it seems that everyone is telling me his understanding of Deen and disregarding the actual sentence. If one has different translation then please post your translation and then explain.
I don't understand this. Look at your subject line. I try to explain what I understand as you asked, but it seems that you are looking for something else now. Please understand your doubt then come up with your question.
If you are refering to "Laa ikraaha fidDeen". It does not contain the word force in any sense.
Please ask you question clearly.
Regards,
mmKhan -
If you are refering to "Laa ikraaha fidDeen". It does not contain the word force in any sense.
My dear friend my question is very clear but i dont know how you can say that there is no force in this sentence. what is the meaning of ikraha in this sentence according to your understanding?
according to my understanding the word ikraaha means the following
Arabic - English
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forcing , compulsion , conquering , constraint , coercion , impelling , force , violenceRegards.
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salam khyaletanzim. you asked for an explanation of the arabic word millat.
2135
there are three ways to examine the word millat, i present them to you in historical order.
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in aramaic the word MLL means speech or word.
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the letters MLL represent M the water, L the staff of allah's authority, and L the staff of allah's authority. you are aware that the quran refers to rain and water as that which allah sends upon the earth to bring forth life. the double staff emphasizes the authority of allah.
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the root of millat is MLL and lane's lexicon and the project root list use the term "vessel" like a clay jar used to carry liquids, or "sewing", as in sewing a patch on a thobe. these two words cross connect with the words of issa, as reported by luke in 536 "no man putteth a piece of new garment upon and old; if otherwise, then the new maketh a rent, and the piece that was taken out of the new agreeth not with the old" 537 "and no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles; and be spilled, and the bottles will perish"
to sum up the analysis, millat is the double authority words of allah which are sent as a blessing on mankind, to give life. ibrahim was the first to accept the authority of allah completely, to the point he was willing to sacrifice his son. issa warned us to be aware that the words of allah cannot be intermixed with old words of any other concepts or belief, because the words of allah being strong will burst any old vessel, or tear any old cloth. i see people whose very fabric is torn when they hear the words of allah, i see people whose hearts burst unable to accept allahs word, when they try and reconcile allah's word with their old garment, or pour allah's word into an old heart filled with false beliefs. muhammad accepted the authority of allah, and carried his son to the grave crying, saying, ameen, ameen.
allah is the teacher.
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Salaaman Khyaletanzim,
@mmkhan
My dear friend my question is very clear but i dont know how you can say that there is no force in this sentence. what is the meaning of ikraha in this sentence according to your understanding?according to my understanding the word ikraaha means the following
Arabic - English
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forcing , compulsion , conquering , constraint , coercion , impelling , force , violenceRegards.
No, "Ikraha" does not mean Force. Instead of looking at dictionaries, try to look at the usage of the same word in AlQuraan. InshaAllah, you will reach to the correct meaning.
If you understand urdu, it is the same word we use in urdu as Karahiyat, Makrooh, etc... Ikraha is a derivative of Karaha means something you don't like.
Regards,
mmKhan -
That doesn't fit the context - which is followed by "Truth stands out clear from Error", and I don't see how looking at modern Urdu can be more reliable than Arabic when translating the Quran. What other usage in the Quran are you looking at?
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salaam
please ponder on the possibility that 'deen' simply means 'responsibility; obligation; accountability; etc.'
so, we'll get phrases like 'lakum deenukum wali yadeen' to mean 'for you your responsibilities/obligations, for me my responsibilities/obligations', and 'yawmiddeen' means 'day/time of accountability'.
just ponder without prejudice. insha-Allah God will guide the sincere students.
peace!
jb
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friend you told me that it does not mean force but it means dislike. so if I apply as liquiddharma has mentioned it will be like this "no disliking in deen. truth stands out clear from error." does it makes any sense to you? if i am not correct in my understanding then please translate it in English and Urdu for me please.
Kindly explain to me that if i don't look at the dictionaries then where should I look. I have already pasted the meanings of "ikraha". Regarding translations they all have translated similarly. kindly tell me how and on which ayahs i should look. Please do translate 419, 2433
As far as "karha" is concerned then it has the same meaning as you tell.
Arabic - English
alienate from , make hateful to , make disinclined to , make someone hate something , make averse to
loathe , be disinclined to , mislike , abhor , abominate , hate , feel disgust for , hate intensely , have an aversion to or for , feel distaste for , detest
distaste , disfavor , disrelish , dislike , disgust , repugnance , detestation , odium , hate , antipathy , abhorrence , abomination , hatred
revulsion , hate , repugnance , odium , abomination , abhorrence , jaundice , animosity , antipathy , hatred , detestation , disfavor , enmity , disrelish , feud , grudge , antagonism
@ al araf
Please translate according to your meanings the following verses. 788, 1237, 387.
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Salaaman Khyaletanzim,
No, "Ikraha" does not mean Force. Instead of looking at dictionaries, try to look at the usage of the same word in AlQuraan. InshaAllah, you will reach to the correct meaning.
If you understand urdu, it is the same word we use in urdu as Karahiyat, Makrooh, etc... Ikraha is a derivative of Karaha means something you don't like.
Regards,
mmKhanDear mmkhan this arabic not urdu
La Ikrah fil din means no Compulsion in Religionpeace
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Salaaman brother Khyaletanzim,
friend you told me that it does not mean force but it means dislike. so if I apply as liquiddharma has mentioned it will be like this "no disliking in deen. truth stands out clear from error." does it makes any sense to you? if i am not correct in my understanding then please translate it in English and Urdu for me please.
"No disliking in deen. Truth stands out clear from error". Why not?
It simply says, there is nothing to dislike in deen. Everything is good for you. Even if you don't like anything in deen, it might be better for you, but you are not understanding it. I hope you got my point. inshaAllah.
Urdu Deen main karahiyat nahin hai. Deen main kuch bhi aisa nahin hai jis se karahiyat ho.
Note If anything don't fit with our current understand does not mean that it is wrong.
Kindly explain to me that if i don't look at the dictionaries then where should I look.
I am not saying you should not look at or refer to dictionaries. But I wanted to say that the meaning in dictionaries may differ from the meaning in AlQuraan. Because, I beleive in all the complex words used in AlQuraan has been defined by AlQuraan itself. I don't know how far you believe in it. But this is what I understand and believe, I might be wrong... and hope Allah will surely correct me if I am wrong.
I have already pasted the meanings of "ikraha".
Yes, you can see what Ikraha mean from what you have quoted. And 'ikraha' is a derivative of 'karaha', so how meaning will change?
Regarding translations they all have translated similarly. kindly tell me how and on which ayahs i should look. Please do translate 419, 2433
419 O YOU who have attained to faith! It is not lawful for you to become heirs to women against their will; and neither shall you keep them under constraint with a view to taking away anything of what you may have given them, unless it be that they have become guilty, in an obvious man?ner, of immoral conduct. And consort with your wives in a goodly manner; for if you dislike them, it may well be that you dislike something which God might yet make a source of abundant good.
Urdu ....Tumhare liye ye halaal nahin hai ke tum aurtaun ke waris ban jao unki karahiyat par.
(419)
For 2433 I have to steady. I am not able to understand the usage of "Tukrihoo" in this verse. May Allah open my heart to understand it clearly and correctly.
Please translate according to your meanings the following verses. 788, 1237, 387.
788 The chieftains of his people, who were scornful, said Surely we will drive thee out, O Shueyb, and those who believe with thee, from our township, unless ye return to our religion. He said Even though we dislike it?
(78
Urdu Kaha sardaraun ne (ya mullaaon ne) jo takabbur karte thae uski qaum se, albatta hum nikaal dainge tujhko aye Shoeb (AS) aur unko jo eiman laye tere saath, hamaari basti mainse. Ya palat aao tum sab hamaare tariqaun par. Kaha (Shoeb AS ne) kya agar huwe hum karaahiyat karte (tab bhi)? 788
I tried to translate it literally. Allah know best.
I don't find anything in relation with 'karaha' in 1237 and 387. Please check.
May Allah open our hearts to understand His message clearly and correctly. pr
Regards,
mmKhan -
Salaaman Afridi,
Dear mmkhan this arabic not urdu
La Ikrah fil din means no Compulsion in ReligionI know brother, but I think you don't know urdu because most of the words used in AlQuraan got the same meaning in Urdu. We use those words in Urdu.
OK, if 'karaha' mean 'Compulsion' to you. Please translate 1738 for me.
Regards,
mmKhan -
Dear mmkhan,
Thanks for the complete answer. You said
It simply says, there is nothing to dislike in deen. Everything is good for you. Even if you don't like anything in deen, it might be better for you, but you are not understanding it. I hope you got my point.The way you posted it do make sense but the problem is Ikarah and karha does not seem to be written in same way and and this word Ikraha is used only twice in Quran with Alaf and at both places force seems clearer in understanding as per my understanding because the sentences seems to be decisive and not informative.
I think making them same may cause problem in understanding because as you say it is, then it seems to me that it contradicts at many stages when it comes to disbelievers. General statement of this kind by God does not fit into my understanding because of the following reasons. If there is nothing to dislike in system then why disbelievers hate or refuse to accept and upon that the next sentence In that aya also seems to have no use with your understanding. It is not said that there is nothing to dislike in deen for believers but it seem to me as a general and decisive statement addressing all.
1237 and 387 was not for you but for brother Al Araf to translate. Kindly shed light on your understanding of the word millat
Regards.
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Dear mmkhan,
Logically we have to understand how the TRUTH is made clear from Error, in the Quran it is done by wide range of very strong intellectual and historical arguments in order to direct humans towards the Deen without force. These arguments are required because by default humans will not be going towards the Deen because it is not all like able so to say " there is nothing to dislike in Deen " is clearly incorrect!!! Further, if all is like able then why should there be humans who dislike it and become kafirs?
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Salaaman brother Khyaletanzim,
If there is nothing to dislike in system then why disbelievers hate or refuse to accept
They do so because they don't realize the Truth. Like 'Lahmal Khinzeer' is Haraam in System, but they don't realize it why it has been made unlawful.
Millat As per my understanding, it means "Ways or practices" or "Tariqa" in urdu.
May Allah open our hearts to understand the Truth clearly and correctly pr
Regards,
mmKhan -
But if there were compulsion in deen, then there most clearly would be something to dislike about it, and truth would not stand out from error on its own. peace