why do we have to believe?
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Farida After rereading your post i think i get it what you meant... but i did answer it correctly previously... i want to rephrase it.. allow me to take another shot
i moved on in my thought patterns... but it does not mean i have to go away from this forum because this forum discusses Muhammads teaching from the ancient civilizations (which i think you meant Quran teaching). I'm interested to discuss about God, monotheism and our future rather than the past... so you'll see me more on discussion about God and those paranormal and modern stuff. I'm not interested to discuss about the other things (e.g Fasting, Salat, Hajj, Hadth Quran Islam Muhammad etc) in this forum. But i don't understand why you say Muhammad's backward teaching... can you explain?
As to why you say those that moved on seemed reluctant
I don't know about the others but I don't see it that way. in fact i felt this forum is like my home... there's a lot more to learn... is that wrong?If you still don't understand maybe my english or my ability to explain my thought is bad.. I apologize... '(
Peace group
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Farida After rereading your post i think i get it what you meant... but i did answer it correctly previously... i want to rephrase it.. allow me to take another shot
i moved on in my thought patterns... but it does not mean i have to go away from this forum
I don't know about the others but I don't see it that way. in fact i felt this forum is like my home... there's a lot more to learn... is that wrong?
If you still don't understand maybe my english or my ability to explain my thought is bad.. I apologize... '(
Peace group
When-did- I tell- you-to- move-away-from-this-forum???
-This-forum-is-open-for-all- including-those-who-want-to-dicuss-anal sex. Can't-you-understand-that-if -you-moved-on then-why-can't-you -leave-those-alone-those-who-love-God,-love-the-Qur'an-and have-a-high-regard-for-all-the-prophets.As to why you say those that moved on seemed reluctant...I'm interested to discuss about God, monotheism and our future rather than the past... so you'll see me more on discussion about God and those paranormal and modern stuff.
You are not the only one who moved on in your thought process; from the day we are born we move in different directions along with our outlook on life, belief etc. Some who had a bad up-bringing in the teachings of Islam leave it with a bad taste in their mouths, whereas others who experience life's ups and downs and then come to find truth, logic and God through the Qur'an are often the ones who went through big upheavals in life. I know many such, mostly western people, and you would find them on this forum too. One example is our member Arnab. Read her story and see how she has moved on. I can only say you may think you are moving forward, but to others it may mean falling behind,
why you say Muhammad's backward teaching... can you explain?
I was paraphrasing you; for you the teachings of the Qur'an are of and about the past, but for others it is the most contemperory book of guidance much more facinating then those paranormal and modern stuff. yes
Anyway good luck with your life's ventures.
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But I do find were God has preffered some over others and that God does and creates what He pleases and He knows what is in the wombs ect...
Precisely,
God chooses the state of his creation. He prefers some over others.
1675 God puts forth the example of a slave who is owned and cannot achieve anything, against one whom We have provided a good provision which he spends of it secretly and openly. Are they the same? God be praised, but most of them do not know.
1676 And God puts forth the example of two men, one of them is mute and he cannot achieve anything, and he is a burden to his guardian. Wherever he points him, he does not come with any good. Is he the same as one who orders good and he is upon a straight path? -
Peace,
but it's no fun to answer that way... so i like to share my own words and experience...
I think it is the matter what you want God is in your heart.. You want a loving and forgiving God? or you want a wrathful and jealous God? The more you focus on a loving God the more the love of God that you see. Same like the latter... The more you focus on wrathful God the the wrath of God that you see.Lets say in my garden I have an apple tree. You say it is an orange tree, I for some reason say its a mango tree. You do realise that the tree exists as an apple tree regardless of what we see it as... Similarly the fact that you think God is subject to what an individual's "heart" dictates tells me you see something vastly different from the living creator that is independent of creation.
God is all, omniscent, omnipotent and whatnot... we understand that. But sometimes our mind tend to bias God on His certain aspect of Him. Since our childhood, our culture and beliefs have been imposed on us only some of His aspects. Once we grow and start questioning about God.. that's when the journey starts to become interesting... we will see a lot of thought, q&a about God, revelations, scriptures and a lot of things. Quran has said a lot about what God is... especially on the preferences of Allah to the believers... Heaven and hell, Judgmenet day and etc. I've walked this path before... and when i learned from it to apply the method like i mentioned earlier.... and i see more...
Your write as though you have some lesson to share. Yet you do not share any of it and merely conjecture.
this is the wall or borders that had been made to stay at certain belief area... like i said... you can belief God is wrathful or God is forgiving. You can mix both... but in the end you will end up a question like the OP asked.... if we try to apply the method above... which is put aside the wrathful God belief for a while and try to experiment to focus solely on the loving side of God for a while. See where it goes... maybe you'd like it... ;D
The problem is, that God exists outside of your "heart" and can do as he pleases. So if you fool yourself into believing in the imaginary God you knowingly concocted in your mind than I am not a guardian over you.
If you feared God will incur a wrath to you if you did or go to hell because of it... It's fine... it's just that you're not ready to walk beyond the border... you can stay there until you're ready... keep in mind that you hold the key to all of the doors God has given to you. You choose when to open it yourself.
Bring evidence if you are truthful.
So i conclude to myself some of the Quran teaching are mostly valid to the people at that time. Not to say to disbelief in Quran's teaching. It's just that i have felt i have learned enough of it's wisdom. So i move on to find a different path to see whether it is easier for me to find Him.
831 And if Our revelations are recited to them, they say ?We have listened, and if we wish, we could have said the same thing. This is nothing but tales of the ancients!?
832 And they said ?Our god, if this is the truth from You, then send down upon us a rain of stones from the sky or bring on us a painful retribution.?1036 Most of them only follow conjecture. While conjecture does not avail against the truth in anything. God is aware of what they do.
1037 This Qur?an could not have been produced without God, but it is to authenticate what is already present, and to give detail to the Scripture in which there is no doubt, from the Lord of the worlds.
1038 Or do they say he invented it? Say ?Then bring a chapter like it, and call upon whoever you can besides God if you are truthful!?
1039 No, they have lied about that which they did not have knowledge of, nor has its explanation come to them. It is also how those before them denied, so see how was the retribution of the wicked!1113 Or do they say ?He invented it!? Say ?Bring ten invented chapters like it, and call on whom you can besides God if you are truthful.?
1114 So, if they do not respond to you, then know that it was sent down with God?s knowledge, and that there is no god but He. Will you then submit?223 And if you are in doubt as to what We have sent down to Our servant, then bring a chapter like this, and call upon your witnesses other than God if you are truthful.
224 And if you cannot do this; and you will not be able to do this; then beware the Fire whose fuel is people and stones, it has been prepared for the rejecters.God has already informed me of your kind.
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Can't-you-understand-that-if -you-moved-on then-why-can't-you -leave-those-alone-those-who-love-God,-love-the-Qur'an-and have-a-high-regard-for-all-the-prophets.
Hehe i can't leave them alone cuz i felt obliged to at least give my thoughts just in case some one might be interested with it.... that's why i always say take it or leave it... i just can't shut up if i have a thought that i have to say (bad habit i guess P).....
I have no issues with love God... but i have to say love Quran, prophet or anything worldly up to the level that one got attached to it is something that one has to be careful of... you guys know "the litmus" test right?
Anyway good luck with your life's ventures.
handshakeThank you.. good luck to you too ;D ;D
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Peace,
May peace be to you too, let us share our thoughts together... handshake
Lets say in my garden I have an apple tree. You say it is an orange tree, I for some reason say its a mango tree. You do realise that the tree exists as an apple tree regardless of what we see it as... Similarly the fact that you think God is subject to what an individual's "heart" dictates tells me you see something vastly different from the living creator that is independent of creation.
Umm i think you thought i am saying the heart is the God right? .... I apologize if i'm mistaken.... God is something that is unfathomable... nobody can explain it other than a certain aspect of Him especially in this physical dimension (Him in my view is not male i just got used to it) but the heart is as far as i know now is the closest way that we can "commune" with God.... It dictates we are searching God from the inside rather than from the outside where there is a lot of distortion (worldly material stuff)... There's a lot of "signs" of God out there.... be aware of it.... The heart is pure... but the mind, (i think it's maybe the left brain)... has somehow took over the heart (probably due to how we are raised nowadays) where we can only listen to the heart only when we are desperate or the mind has no other way to find a solution or when we completely empty our mind or change our focus thought to God when we meditate, pray or thinking deeply.... i'm sorry if i don't define it earlier but i think it's easier us to think God is in our heart... The physical heart is kinda like our bio generator... never ceased pumping with the rythm that had been dictated by the Creator.... fascinating isn't it? from where do it gets it's energy i wonder... do you know?... I don't know whether the physical heart and the heart that i said earlier is the same... but does it matter? Maybe the heart is the soul? maybe we'll know sooner or later.... i think Quran did show it somewhere.. but it's ok for me...
Your write as though you have some lesson to share. Yet you do not share any of it and merely conjecture.
it's my experience which in turn... i don't conjecture my experience... i "share"... by sharing i mean you can read it or you can ignore it or you can discuss with it...
The problem is, that God exists outside of your "heart" and can do as he pleases. So if you fool yourself into believing in the imaginary God you knowingly concocted in your mind than I am not a guardian over you.
The problem is God from the outside is far reached with our physical hands whereas he is closer than our jugular vein from the inside (remember i'm not saying God is "only" from inside. it is unfathomable. But there are paths that we can find God.. listening from the inside is one of it)..... how do you know God that i perceive is imaginary? even i have problem to understand it inside me.... but i just know it without definition.... you always focus to God while you're praying right? is it imaginary?
Bring evidence if you are truthful.
i don't have any proof other than what it had made me now... group
831 And if Our revelations are recited to them, they say We have listened, and if we wish, we could have said the same thing. This is nothing but tales of the ancients!
832 And they said Our god, if this is the truth from You, then send down upon us a rain of stones from the sky or bring on us a painful retribution.1036 Most of them only follow conjecture. While conjecture does not avail against the truth in anything. God is aware of what they do.
1037 This Quran could not have been produced without God, but it is to authenticate what is already present, and to give detail to the Scripture in which there is no doubt, from the Lord of the worlds.
1038 Or do they say he invented it? Say Then bring a chapter like it, and call upon whoever you can besides God if you are truthful!
1039 No, they have lied about that which they did not have knowledge of, nor has its explanation come to them. It is also how those before them denied, so see how was the retribution of the wicked!1113 Or do they say He invented it! Say Bring ten invented chapters like it, and call on whom you can besides God if you are truthful.
1114 So, if they do not respond to you, then know that it was sent down with Gods knowledge, and that there is no god but He. Will you then submit?223 And if you are in doubt as to what We have sent down to Our servant, then bring a chapter like this, and call upon your witnesses other than God if you are truthful.
224 And if you cannot do this; and you will not be able to do this; then beware the Fire whose fuel is people and stones, it has been prepared for the rejecters.God has already informed me of your kind.
Is it directly from God or is it from the mouth of Muhammad who is trying desperately to convince the Arabs who only God knows what he was thinking? or is it from the mouth of those who memorized it who we have not seen them face to face or hear them recite to us directly? or is it from the leaves or animal skin which we already "told" have been burned? There's a mixed level of subtlety and the unknown there.... why not ask them first to give the evidence if they're truthful?... or yeah they're not in this time anymore... we have to trust the oral story of the Arabs on how it came about.... may peace be upon them... handshake
Again.. not to disbelief Quran... just a critical thought.... group
i came to know that all the material in this world is just a tool/catalyst/guide/helper for us to learn and go higher... take the wisdom of it as much as we can...Quran is a book of wisdom anyway.... try not to rely on it too much literally.... don't expect the best suraverse number from literal translation or the or the arabic version which is from golden Quran proven with complex 19 code without sura 9128-129 will go with us when we're not living here anymore.... i apologize if anybody felt insulted.... remember the idolatry test....
Please don't take this seriously... i'm just entertaining my thought .... thank you for the comments.... jedi
Peace
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Hehe i can't leave them alone cuz i felt obliged to at least give my thoughts just in case some one might be interested with it.... that's why i always say take it or leave it... i just can't shut up if i have a thought that i have to say (bad habit i guess ).....
Oh so you are on a mission to guide whom you consider misguided hmm; try your luck unless you are on someone?s payroll elektro. I don?t see you achieving much. I see you advising aalmakto as if he needs your advice laugh
I have no issues with love God... but i have to say love Quran, prophet or anything worldly up to the level that one got attached to it is something that one has to be careful of...
bravo you have no issue with God only with Mohammad who, according to you, was desperately trying to reach the Arabs and ended up reaching the whole world including "the Modern ones" in the west. Now it seems you are desperately trying to undo that feat; keep trying. I don?t see you have much else to do. brickwall
you guys know "the litmus" test right?
Wrong!!we know nothing it?s you who seemed to come to know more than you can swallow, so that is why you are desperate to advice someone like me who thinks of you as just another lost kid seeking attention, ( ) pr
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May peace be to you too, let us share our thoughts together... handshake
Umm i think you thought i am saying the heart is the God right? .... I apologize if i'm mistaken....You are mistaken. I was trying to imply that since God is unfathomable as you have put it, the best way to determine his attributes is for him to tell us himself through revelation. Everyone guessing on his attributes does not make it truth (hence my example of the apple tree).
The heart is pure... but the mind, (i think it's maybe the left brain)... has somehow took over the heart (probably due to how we are raised nowadays) where we can only listen to the heart only when we are desperate or the mind has no other way to find a solution or when we completely empty our mind or change our focus thought to God when we meditate, pray or thinking deeply.... i'm sorry if i don't define it earlier but i think it's easier us to think God is in our heart... The physical heart is kinda like our bio generator... never ceased pumping with the rythm that had been dictated by the Creator.... fascinating isn't it? from where do it gets it's energy i wonder... do you know?... I don't know whether the physical heart and the heart that i said earlier is the same... but does it matter? Maybe the heart is the soul? maybe we'll know sooner or later.... i think Quran did show it somewhere.. but it's ok for me...
Proof of anything you have just said.
it's my experience which in turn... i don't conjecture my experience... i "share"... by sharing i mean you can read it or you can ignore it or you can discuss with it...
Well since you are telling me how the world and God operates with no proof it is the worst kind of conjecture.
Definition of Conjecture 2 a inference from defective or presumptive evidence b a conclusion deduced by surmise or guesswork c a proposition (as in mathematics) before it has been proved or disproved
3120 Did you not see that God has committed in your service everything in the heavens and the Earth, and He has showered you with His blessings, both apparent and hidden? Yet from the people are some who argue about God without knowledge, without guidance, and without an enlightening Scripture.
i don't have any proof other than what it had made me now... group
Well you will need more proof than that otherwise your belief will just perish in time. As all falsehood/guessing does.
Is it directly from God or is it from the mouth of Muhammad who is trying desperately to convince the Arabs who only God knows what he was thinking? or is it from the mouth of those who memorized it who we have not seen them face to face or hear them recite to us directly? or is it from the leaves or animal skin which we already "told" have been burned? There's a mixed level of subtlety and the unknown there.... why not ask them first to give the evidence if they're truthful?... or yeah they're not in this time anymore... we have to trust the oral story of the Arabs on how it came about.... may peace be upon them... handshake
Again.. not to disbelief Quran... just a critical thought.... group
Thanks for the "critical thought" as though its something I needed to think about ;D
Once again you failed to read my last post. And you just keep repeating yourself as though that somehow makes your argument stronger ???
i came to know that all the material in this world is just a tool/catalyst/guide/helper for us to learn and go higher... take the wisdom of it as much as we can...Quran is a book of wisdom anyway.... try not to rely on it too much literally.... don't expect the best suraverse number from literal translation or the or the arabic version which is from golden Quran proven with complex 19 code without sura 9128-129 will go with us when we're not living here anymore.... i apologize if anybody felt insulted.... remember the idolatry test....
4140 And it has been sent down to you in the Scripture, that if you hear God?s revelations being rejected and ridiculed in, then do not sit with them until they move on to a different subject; if not, then you are like them. God will gather the hypocrites and the disbelievers in Hell all together.
If you want me to participate in this discussion I suggest you stop calling the Quran a book of wisdom that I should not rely on too literally. And stop trying to say it is the words of a human. I already quoted the relevant verses in my last post.
Please don't take this seriously... i'm just entertaining my thought .... thank you for the comments.... jedi
I think this means you are not here to learn or contribute anything substantial. I advise you go entertain yourself on another forum because its sound as though your conjecture is more important to you than truth.
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I see you advising aalmakto as if he needs your advice laugh
Thanks sis no need to worry about me P
bravo you have no issue with God only with Mohammad who, according to you, was desperately trying to reach the Arabs and ended up reaching the whole world including "the Modern ones" in the west. Now it seems you are desperately trying to undo that feat; keep trying. I don?t see you have much else to do. brickwallWrong!!we know nothing it?s you who seemed to come to know more than you can swallow, so that is why you are desperate to advice someone like me who thinks of you as just another lost kid seeking attention, ) pr
Very true. I was brought up in the West, and all my life never read or knew anything about the Quran... other than it was a book that some people believed in. Muhammad, must have "written" quite a book to have such far reach and inspire so many people yeah. Fadhli, I am sure has not written anything that can even come close.
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We created man from an extract of clay. Then We made him as a drop in a place of settlement, firmly fixed. Then We made the drop into an Alaqah* (leech, suspended thing, blood clot), then We made the Alaqah into a Mudghah** (chewed, lump)? The Holy Qur'an, Chapter 23,Verse 12-14
Let him beware! If he does not stop, We will drag him by the Forelock * , a lying, sinful forelock? The Holy Qur'an, Chapter 96,Verse 15-16 police
Do not the unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together, then We clove them asunder, and made from water every living thing? Will they not then believe?" - The Holy Qur'an, Chapter 21,Verse 30
Or (the unbelievers? state) is like the darkness in a deep sea. It is covered by waves, above which are waves, above which are clouds. Darknesses, one above another. If a man stretches out his hand, he cannot see it
sun
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Farida and aalmakto if you like to see it that way.. i understand your thoughts now... you guys are well aware of it... i think i didn't label any of you as "misguided".... if i did please accept my apology.... for proofs i don't need to prove anything... it's just good as it is... you guys don't need my advice... i'm just sharing what i know... it's not my great mission or anything related.... and my arguments are becoming repetitive already because for me it's simple... God is somehow closer within and the hearts connects it... before my ego tainted my thoughts i better stop.. eat..... if it's already known to you it's ok by me.. no hard feelings ya? ;D ;D group group
*p/s i may i gave in the temptation again to reply your posts if it's interesting.... lol... sorry i'm just human....
Peace
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Farida and aalmakto if you like to see it that way.. i understand your thoughts now... you guys are well aware of it... i think i didn't label any of you as "misguided".... if i did please accept my apology.... for proofs i don't need to prove anything... it's just good as it is... you guys don't need my advice... i'm just sharing what i know... it's not my great mission or anything related.... and my arguments are becoming repetitive already because for me it's simple... God is somehow closer within and the hearts connects it... before my ego tainted my thoughts i better stop.. eat..... if it's already known to you it's ok by me.. no hard feelings ya? ;D ;D group group
*p/s i may i gave in the temptation again to reply your posts if it's interesting.... lol... sorry i'm just human....
Peace
No hard feelings Fadhli. group
4514 Say to those who believed to forgive those who do not look forward to the days of God. He will fully recompense people for whatever they have earned.
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this is sort of linked to my what does God get out of it question...
Why is "shirk" the unforgiveable sin while anything else can be forgiven? It is not harming anyone else?
And why do we have to believe? God always talks about almumineen/muslimeen/ahl alkitab as those who will know no fear while the mushrikeen/kuffar are the ones who will be hell-bound - if you are an atheist but a good person where does that leave you?thanks all!
salam , i have not read all the posts, so i will try to answer best i can ,
everyone keeps talking about repenting, when does repenting begin at birth at childhood or as an adult.the answer is from the moment we are born because the fact that we are in this world proves in itself that we have sinned. but what was the sin, when adam and eve ate from the apple was that the sin.....some ppl might say yes. no it was not, they sinned when they allowed themselves to listen to other then god,in other words they put satins word obove god himself, that in itself is shirk,that is the sin. if people can understand the concept of that very sin, then life would be very simple, you look at the quran, what is the quran, it is a book, a history book, its talks of future, the past, it teachs discepline and manners, it teaches personalities and mentalities, its science it math, it is everything you can possibly need to live a perfect life becuase the quran is perfection.and with all that knowledge in that book, the main idea, to beleive in god alone, with everything that we learn from it, from all the stories to all the messengers to prophets and in the end the whole idea behind the book, is not to do what adam and eve did in the beginning. to put someone or even something above god.
if you do shirk you are right you are not harming anyone accept one and that would be yourself. i will not stand with you when we stand infront of god you will be alone and so will each and everyone of us ,but this time there is no repentance you had that chance, this time there is no choices, and when you stand infront of him who will help you. he is our creator he is our love he is th heartbeat and he is the breath he is in every cell that moves in your body. and he will love you like no other he has given us riches beyond what we deserve we walk and we can speak and most important we can think. so use the mind he gave you to find your way to him. i do not care from what sect or religion people come from in the end whatever truth we think we know. if it includes anyone other then god. then he knows not what truth is.
god bless us all -
God created us in His image so we can come into a relationship with Him. Yes if an athiest dies without asking forgivness in Jesus and having rejected Jesus and the Father they will die in their sins, and will be going to hell. Forgivness comes form God through His Son. People who know about God but choice to live a life seperate from Him God will honour that request and send you to hell where there is seperation from God. If you did not want to live your life with Him on earth you will not live with Him in Heaven. simple.
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Surely not, if Hell is separate from God, that would mean that God was not all-powerful and all-embracing. God must be everywhere, nowhere is separate from God.
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you sound deceived. Hell is very real. I will not add anymore then that.
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I didn't say hell isn't real. I said hell is not separation from God's power, because God's power permeates everything.
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hell is not a place God resides. common sence
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Why, do you think God's afraid of hell? Nothing can exist without God. If God ceased to reside in a place, that place would cease to exist. And God is not afraid of anything, he created everything.
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demons are in hell and satan and God cannot live together. Light cannot live in darkness. and God is light. God created hell for satan and his angels but anyone who dies without Jesus will go there. It is not God's disire for anyone to perish bt come to repentance through His Son Jesus and hell is not a party place. God's Home is Heaven not hell. God is on His Throne in Heaven. what don't you understand about that? God created hell for satan and his angels but so many souls die and go there everyday for rejecting or turning away from Jesus. but I am not responsible for your salvation, if you end up in hell that is not my fault but rememeber you have been told. and you will remember this conversation in hell. I do not want you to go there but you have a choice and I am not going to make if for you.