Hot/"ramadan" Answer
-
Ayman,
As for your comment, about "haram" can mean "sacred" (making the meat of the pig potentially "sacred", this is a perfect example of unintelligent and uncritical use of dictionaries. By the way "i7tiram" can NEVER mean "making something sacred". Its meaning of "respect" has to do with the meaning of "restricted" or "inviolable" so "i7tiram/respect of something" means "to not violate it". We even use this in English to say "respect the law" (not "make the law sacred". The word "sacred" or "holy" in Arabic is "qudus".
I personally think you need to think more on the meaning of holy/sacred and their implications. Their implications have to do with great respect. Yes, the meat of pig would be potentially sacred, if it were not called an abomination in the Quran. But if those verses are really saying that eating pig's meat is an abomination then we may have to rethink the tradtional Muslim opinion of pig's meat as being a vile item to more like a potentially holy/sacred item that we must not touch. But in my opinion I don't think it would be very logical to only make the pig's meat forbidden (that means bones, skin and fat are not) and not give the status of haraam, as holy/sacred, to the whole pig. So it is obvious that pig's meat is an abomination, not to be eaten by those who know God's law.
Quote from progod on Yesterday at 061335 PM
7. The Quran nowhere mentions that its restriction on hunting for those observing the shuhoor hurum is to protect animal breeding or animal populations. It's a good idea to protect animal breeding times and populations in order to preserve balances in ecosystems and a constant food supply, but not even these goals can be accomplished by squishing them into a four month hunting ban. And it is even more inappropriate to force these agendas onto the Quran in places where the Quran does not give these reasons for the motivation behind its commands.Just because you have a bias for an arbitrary 30 day Anwar month, it doesn't mean that everyone starts from a certain bias and works backwards to justify it from the great reading. The time of the restriction was found based 100% on what is learned from the great reading. It was afterwards and after doing more research that it was discovered that the timing of the restricted full-moons happens to coincide with when most places around the world have their hunting restrictions anyway. This is not due to this being breeding time. This is due to this time being the time when young animals have just been born or about to be born. So this is to protect the weak young animals until they can fend for themselves by the fall.
I think it's obvious to everyone from my quote above that I did not mentioned any 30 day months here, or Anwar months for that much. I would be glad to revisit that topic but let's keep things separate for the sake of clarity. We are dealing with your opinions on this subject now, and I am looking forward to revisting mine after we have exhuausted analysis on yours first. This is obviously an attempt at an unjustified attack on your part. And i think it's obvious that the Quran does not mention the protection of weak young animals (as merciful as that sounds) as a reason behind its restriction on hunting during the sacred/restricted months. You know just as well as i do that is totally extra-Quranic and non-quranic. But looking at what you've said I'd be curious to know when exactly is the time of restriction as you see it based on 100% of what you've learned from the Quran, having nothing to do with the extra-Quranic and non-Quranic hunting restrictions in most places around the world. Where are the Quranic verses that point to these shuhoor of restriction/sacredness and that give us the reasons you give us for the Quranic ban on hunting during these shuhoor? And can you provide them without extra commentary about the hunting restrictions found in most places around the world?
Quote from progod on Yesterday at 061335 PM
It is true that a count/counting (3iddah) of something doesn't always have to coincide with the number (3adad) of something.Yes, this is indisputable and this is all that you needed to acknowledge. Now apart from the above, you can have your opinion about the population that the god counts out of but this opinion doesn't change the reality of what we can observe in the heavens and the earth. So, as far as your opinion goes we will just have to agree to disagree.
That is a great way of dismissing everything else I've said and focusing on the obvious, all the while trying to associate buzz words like 'indisputable' to your opinions. As it concerns the population that God counts out of, you know well from 7228 and from logic that it is illogical for God to have been always counting 12 shuhoor since he created the heavens and the earth when he has created some of those years with 13 shuhoor. You know that that means that means that God has been ignoring what He created in the first place. Of course we can agree to disagree and that is fine, but why can't you admit the lack of logic and the contradicton with 7228 with your opinion on this issue?
All your other comments have been repeatedly addressed and debunked in previous posts throughout this thread.
These are just words, that have no backing. On this issue you have debunked none of my comments. You have only denied them, and tried to twist my words in order to confuse and distract the readers here. I am glad these distractions and intentional confusions are finally becoming obvious to everyone here.
I urge you to consider the fact that you are doing the same thing that the Talmudic/pre-Islamic Arab calendar did by ignoring the first shahr (in this case full moon) after the end of the 12th full moon, and thereby delaying it until the actual 2nd shahr. That is An-nasee'u and it is an additon to rejection/denial.
I think it has been made obvious from all I have written that the Quran does not mean full moon when it says shahr. But that is for each individual to be able to see on his/her own.
sun Godbless,
Anwar -
Peace Anwar,
936 does not mention the absolute number of full-moons in a year but mentions count of full-moons. If God was talking about the total number of full-moons in a solar year, He would have said something like this
"The number (3adad) of full-moons in a year is 12 every year for 2 years and 13 full-moons in the third year".
936 also mentions that the purpose of the count is for the hunting restriction (God counts a subset of four restricted shuhoor out of the count of 12), to give us a system/obligation to follow so we can practically implement the hunting restriction. The only way to implement the hunting restriction is to make sure the "shuhoor" are always synchronized with the seasons. Always counting only 12 full-moons out of a possible set of 13 ensures that the full-moons are always synchronized with the seasons, so hunting restriction is not violated.
The count could be any number from a set. If the total possible full-moons in a year is 13, then the count could be any number from 1 to 13. It is impossible to count 13 full-moons every year, so God counts only 12 full-moons out of a possible 13 in a solar year and makes it a system/obligation for us to follow the same count, in order to maintain synchronization between the full-moons and the seasons for the purposes of hunting restriction. The only way to maintain this synchronization is to always count only 12 full-moons in a solar year and not to count the 13th full-moon when it happens within a solar year.
You are confusing counting from a set with absolute number in a set. In 936, God is counting from a set, not giving us an absolute number in a set.
You still have not told us why God chose the count of restricted shuhoor to be four.
7228 MENTIONS "3ADAD"/NUMBER OF ALL THINGS, NOT THEIR "3IDDAT"/COUNT.
YOUR THEORY ALSO COUNTS ONLY 12 "30 DAY MONTHS" IN A SOLAR YEAR AND SKIPS/IGNORES 1/6TH OF A "30 DAY MONTH" EVERY YEAR.
You are also ignoring 5-6 days every year to maintain the same synchronization between "months" and seasons. Count can be fractional too, so you are ignoring count of .17 of a 30 day month, out of a count of 12.17.
I can ask you the same question you have been asking. According to you, shahr means "30 day month". If that is so, then the absolute count of "30 day months" in a year is 12.17. Why is God not counting .17 of a month when He created it?
If you don't ignore the 5-6 days every year and instead count exactly 12 "30 day months" in a year, then you will have to skip an entire 13th "30 day month" every 6th year to maintain synchronization between the "months" and the seasons. Why would God not count this "30 day month" every 6 years when He created it?
The translation of "30 day month" you are proposing for "shahr" causes numerous irreconcilable contradictions and inconsistancies in al-quran, which have been repeatedly pointed out, and have still not been resolved. When you consider all the evidence from al-quran, "shahr" can only mean "full-moon" without causing any contradiction.
Resolve all the contradictions and inconsistencies caused by your interpretations and then we can discuss further. Until then we have to follow the best view and I am out of this dicussion.
3918 The ones who listen to what is being said, and then follow the best of it. These are the ones whom God has guided, and these are the ones who possess intelligence.
-
Peace,
Peace Anwar,
936 does not mention the absolute number of full-moons in a year but mentions count of full-moons. If God was talking about the total number of full-moons in a solar year, He would have said something like this
"The number (3adad) of full-moons in a year is 12 every year for 2 years and 13 full-moons in the third year".
You've got to be kidding me. Why are you going backwards in this conversation? God counts everything he makes. Period. So if He were counting full moons and there are 13 full moons in any year, God would have been counting them. Otherwise you are saying that he is ignoring what he created in the first place. Why won't you get this?
936 also mentions that the purpose of the count is for the hunting restriction (God counts a subset of four restricted shuhoor out of the count of 12), to give us a system/obligation to follow so we can practically implement the hunting restriction. The only way to implement the hunting restriction is to make sure the "shuhoor" are always synchronized with the seasons. Always counting only 12 full-moons out of a possible set of 13 ensures that the full-moons are always synchronized with the seasons, so hunting restriction is not violated.
Again there is no way you are going to take these extra-Quranic ideas about when to implement the ban on hunting during the holy/restricted shuhoor. I admitted that 4 restricted shuhoor is obviously both God's count and the actual number that God decided on. These two concepts of number and count are not mutually exclusive. Why do you think they are? I think you are confused on this issue and are just taking a side.
The count could be any number from a set. If the total possible full-moons in a year is 13, then the count could be any number from 1 to 13. It is impossible to count 13 full-moons every year, so God counts only 12 full-moons out of a possible 13 in a solar year and makes it a system/obligation for us to follow the same count, in order to maintain synchronization between the full-moons and the seasons for the purposes of hunting restriction. The only way to maintain this synchronization is to always count only 12 full-moons in a solar year and not to count the 13th full-moon when it happens within a solar year
.Here come the claims saying that I said things that I didn't. It is definitely impossible to count 13 full moons every year. And that's because some years have 12 full moons and others 13. This is obvious. But for those consistently occuring years with 13 full moons, if God created them he has to be counting them, otherwise he is ingoring his creation. And that goes against logic and 7228. You continue to imply only human action in couting. But I have already told you too many times that 936 is talking about God's count, and then implies that we imitate that count. So let me say this again, God's count. God's count. God's count. And in this case why does God need to syncronize the count of the full moons he created by ignoring the 13th full moons that he himself created in the first place. We are to follow God's lead when we count. And again it is absurd that God has been ignoring the 13th full moons that he created when he made the heavens, the earth and the moon. Please don't continue to say that I am implying that these 13th full moons occur every year. I never, ever implied that. But they do consistently occur and there is no way that God has been ignoring these consistently occuring 13th full moons to make His count 12. Why would he do that? And just as he would not do this, we are to follow suit and not do it either.
You are confusing counting from a set with absolute number in a set. In 936, God is counting from a set, not giving us an absolute number in a set.
Why do you keep mentioning this? Of course God is counting from a set. In the years where God created 12 full moons he counts that set up to 12. In the years where he created 13 full moons he has to be counting up to 13. Otherwise if he only counts up to 12 then he is ignoring his own 13th full moon which he created in the first place. Don't you see this? Why would God being trying to synchronize something that He created in an unsynchronized way in the first place? He wouldn't. Why would God ignore something that he created in the first place? He wouldn't. Which is why we are to count all the full moons, all the time, whenever we count full moons. And if there are 13th full moons in any given year then full moons are surely not the shuhoor that God is talking about in 936. Isn't this as clear as daylight?
You still have not told us why God chose the count of restricted shuhoor to be four.
And I still don't understand why I have to answer this question. Are there supposed to be more? Less? God said there are four and that's it for me. There's no taking away, adding or ignoring. There are four, God said so, and I dont see why I have to give you a reason for that? I think that is a question that you will have to read more of the Quran to get. Because I do not know why he made four of them. That's His choice.
7228 MENTIONS "3ADAD"/NUMBER OF ALL THINGS, NOT THEIR "3IDDAT"/COUNT.
Exactly. The word for to count or to take into account here is AHSAA and God says that he has counted and taken into account the 3adad of all things. And as you have admitted, in those years with 13 full moons, 13 is the 3adad of the full moons. 7228 says God counted (AHSAA) and has taken the 3adad of all things, even the 13th full moons, into account. So if He ignores those 13th full moons when they occur then he is not counting them or taking them into account. So firstly God counts and takes the number of all things into account. Secondly why would God have been ignoring the count of the 13th full moons that he created in the first place? He wouldn't.
YOUR THEORY ALSO COUNTS ONLY 12 "30 DAY MONTHS" IN A SOLAR YEAR AND SKIPS/IGNORES 1/6TH OF A "30 DAY MONTH" EVERY YEAR.
Are we talking about my theory now? Sounds like you wanna change the subject.
You are also ignoring 5-6 days every year to maintain the same synchronization between "months" and seasons. Count can be fractional too, so you are ignoring count of .17 of a 30 day month, out of a count of 12.17.
I can ask you the same question you have been asking. According to you, shahr means "30 day month". If that is so, then the absolute count of "30 day months" in a year is 12.17. Why is God not counting .17 of a month when He created it?
I've explained this over and over again. God has been counting shuhoor? Right? Well, .17 of a shahr is not a shahr in any shape or form, and 5 or 6 days is not a 30 day-month (one of the alternate definitions of shahr) either. But you are changing the topic and you shouldn't be. And I'll warn anyone else that wants to change the topic as well, not to try to convolute this discussion. We will get to my theory but we must resolve all of the issues with this theory first. We are discussing the inconsistencies of the theory you believe in. We can discuss what you feel are the inconsistencies of mine once we finish discussing yours. One at a time is fair and just, and needed in order to maintain clarity.
If you don't ignore the 5-6 days every year and instead count exactly 12 "30 day months" in a year, then you will have to skip an entire 13th "30 day month" every 6th year to maintain synchronization between the "months" and the seasons. Why would God not count this "30 day month" every 6 years when He created it?
What are you talking about? In addition to trying to change the subject you fail to understand that in 365 or 366 days there are only 12 30-day months to be counted. In no way will a month be added or ignored. The 5 or 6 days until the solstice are not a month or a shahr in any way. Not only is God saying that when he counts months/shahr he has been only counting 12, but since he only created 12 30-day shahr/months in 365 or 366 days God is counting all the shuhoor/months that he created in the first place. Those 5 or 6 days that we observe until the solstices or equinoxes, which are the real starters and enders of the year do not and never have consitituted a shahr. Remember in 936 God is counting shuhoor only, and nothing else. Also remember taht 5 or 6 days do not consistute a shahr, so whereas we are obligated to observe what God has created, these 5 to 6 days are irrelevent to the count of the shuhoor, but they are not to be skipped or ignored, because to start a new year we have to wait until the renewal of the solstices or equinoxes.
I decided to address what you thought were inconsistencies in my theory. But I hope you and others don't intend on continuing to change the subject trying to deflect attention off of this Quranically and logically flawed theory instead of dealing with the fact that it is illogical and unquranic for God to have been ignoring the 13th full moons that he created in some years and only counting twelve of them since he created the heavens, the earth and the moon.
The translation of "30 day month" you are proposing for "shahr" causes numerous irreconcilable contradictions and inconsistancies in al-quran, which have been repeatedly pointed out, and have still not been resolved. When you consider all the evidence from al-quran, "shahr" can only mean "full-moon" without causing any contradiction.
You seem to have your mind made up despite the illogical, unquranic and extra-quranic premises that this full-moon theory is based upon. And even despite the fact that this theory is the mirror image of the Talmudic/pre-islamic practice of delaying the 1st shahr afther the completion of the 12th shahr until the actual 2nd shahr whenever the the calendar threatened to fall out of line with the seasons.
Resolve all the contradictions and inconsistencies caused by your interpretations and then we can discuss further. Until then we have to follow the best view and I am out of this dicussion.
This is a baseless attack on your part. You changed the topic to try to focus on my theory and deflect attention from your theory when your theory is the one that is being discussed. And then you threaten not to continue to answer the serious questions about the inconsistencies of your theory. Why? Because you have made up your mind despite the illogic of your own beliefs? Believe what you will. You are enttitled to that, but admit the inconsistencies and that you have no answer for them. Don't tell me that you won't talk because of the beliefs that I hold, which we weren't even discussing.
3918 The ones who listen to what is being said, and then follow the best of it. These are the ones whom God has guided, and these are the ones who possess intelligence.
Exactly. Thank you for that.
Godbless,
Anwar -
.
Why do you keep mentioning this? Of course God is counting from a set. In the years where God created 12 full moons he counts that set up to 12. In the years where he created 13 full moons he has to be counting up to 13. Otherwise if he only counts up to 12 then he is ignoring his own 13th full moon which he created in the first place. Don't you see this? Why would God being trying to synchronize something that He created in an unsynchronized way in the first place? He wouldn't. Why would God ignore something that he created in the first place? He wouldn't. Which is why we are to count all the full moons, all the time, whenever we count full moons. And if there are 13th full moons in any given year then full moons are surely not the shuhoor that God is talking about in 936. Isn't this as clear as daylight?
Brother Anwar salam
If God has to count 12 out 12, and 13 out of 13, in some years , because according to you, HE has to count his creation, Then,
What is the prupose of counting out from a set?
siki
-
Peace,
You've got to be kidding me. Why are you going backwards in this conversation? God counts everything he makes. Period. So if He were counting full moons and there are 13 full moons in any year, God would have been counting them. Otherwise you are saying that he is ignoring what he created in the first place. Why won't you get this?
Again there is no way you are going to take these extra-Quranic ideas about when to implement the ban on hunting during the holy/restricted shuhoor. I admitted that 4 restricted shuhoor is obviously both God's count and the actual number that God decided on. These two concepts of number and count are not mutually exclusive. Why do you think they are? I think you are confused on this issue and are just taking a side.
.Here come the claims saying that I said things that I didn't. It is definitely impossible to count 13 full moons every year. And that's because some years have 12 full moons and others 13. This is obvious. But for those consistently occuring years with 13 full moons, if God created them he has to be counting them, otherwise he is ingoring his creation. And that goes against logic and 7228. You continue to imply only human action in couting. But I have already told you too many times that 936 is talking about God's count, and then implies that we imitate that count. So let me say this again, God's count. God's count. God's count. And in this case why does God need to syncronize the count of the full moons he created by ignoring the 13th full moons that he himself created in the first place. We are to follow God's lead when we count. And again it is absurd that God has been ignoring the 13th full moons that he created when he made the heavens, the earth and the moon. Please don't continue to say that I am implying that these 13th full moons occur every year. I never, ever implied that. But they do consistently occur and there is no way that God has been ignoring these consistently occuring 13th full moons to make His count 12. Why would he do that? And just as he would not do this, we are to follow suit and not do it either.
Why do you keep mentioning this? Of course God is counting from a set. In the years where God created 12 full moons he counts that set up to 12. In the years where he created 13 full moons he has to be counting up to 13. Otherwise if he only counts up to 12 then he is ignoring his own 13th full moon which he created in the first place. Don't you see this? Why would God being trying to synchronize something that He created in an unsynchronized way in the first place? He wouldn't. Why would God ignore something that he created in the first place? He wouldn't. Which is why we are to count all the full moons, all the time, whenever we count full moons. And if there are 13th full moons in any given year then full moons are surely not the shuhoor that God is talking about in 936. Isn't this as clear as daylight?
And I still don't understand why I have to answer this question. Are there supposed to be more? Less? God said there are four and that's it for me. There's no taking away, adding or ignoring. There are four, God said so, and I dont see why I have to give you a reason for that? I think that is a question that you will have to read more of the Quran to get. Because I do not know why he made four of them. That's His choice.
Exactly. The word for to count or to take into account here is AHSAA and God says that he has counted and taken into account the 3adad of all things. And as you have admitted, in those years with 13 full moons, 13 is the 3adad of the full moons. 7228 says God counted (AHSAA) and has taken the 3adad of all things, even the 13th full moons, into account. So if He ignores those 13th full moons when they occur then he is not counting them or taking them into account. So firstly God counts and takes the number of all things into account. Secondly why would God have been ignoring the count of the 13th full moons that he created in the first place? He wouldn't.
Are we talking about my theory now? Sounds like you wanna change the subject.
I've explained this over and over again. God has been counting shuhoor? Right? Well, .17 of a shahr is not a shahr in any shape or form, and 5 or 6 days is not a 30 day-month (one of the alternate definitions of shahr) either. But you are changing the topic and you shouldn't be. And I'll warn anyone else that wants to change the topic as well, not to try to convolute this discussion. We will get to my theory but we must resolve all of the issues with this theory first. We are discussing the inconsistencies of the theory you believe in. We can discuss what you feel are the inconsistencies of mine once we finish discussing yours. One at a time is fair and just, and needed in order to maintain clarity.
What are you talking about? In addition to trying to change the subject you fail to understand that in 365 or 366 days there are only 12 30-day months to be counted. In no way will a month be added or ignored. The 5 or 6 days until the solstice are not a month or a shahr in any way. Not only is God saying that when he counts months/shahr he has been only counting 12, but since he only created 12 30-day shahr/months in 365 or 366 days God is counting all the shuhoor/months that he created in the first place. Those 5 or 6 days that we observe until the solstices or equinoxes, which are the real starters and enders of the year do not and never have consitituted a shahr. Remember in 936 God is counting shuhoor only, and nothing else. Also remember taht 5 or 6 days do not consistute a shahr, so whereas we are obligated to observe what God has created, these 5 to 6 days are irrelevent to the count of the shuhoor, but they are not to be skipped or ignored, because to start a new year we have to wait until the renewal of the solstices or equinoxes.
I decided to address what you thought were inconsistencies in my theory. But I hope you and others don't intend on continuing to change the subject trying to deflect attention off of this Quranically and logically flawed theory instead of dealing with the fact that it is illogical and unquranic for God to have been ignoring the 13th full moons that he created in some years and only counting twelve of them since he created the heavens, the earth and the moon.
You seem to have your mind made up despite the illogical, unquranic and extra-quranic premises that this full-moon theory is based upon. And even despite the fact that this theory is the mirror image of the Talmudic/pre-islamic practice of delaying the 1st shahr afther the completion of the 12th shahr until the actual 2nd shahr whenever the the calendar threatened to fall out of line with the seasons.
This is a baseless attack on your part. You changed the topic to try to focus on my theory and deflect attention from your theory when your theory is the one that is being discussed. And then you threaten not to continue to answer the serious questions about the inconsistencies of your theory. Why? Because you have made up your mind despite the illogic of your own beliefs? Believe what you will. You are enttitled to that, but admit the inconsistencies and that you have no answer for them. Don't tell me that you won't talk because of the beliefs that I hold, which we weren't even discussing.
Exactly. Thank you for that.
Godbless,
AnwarWhat a Generous waste of talent, and efforts .
siki
-
Peace be upon all,
I have also noticed that many of the questions of inconsistency with 'month' have not been answered clearly and precisely. Maybe some confuse the issue of posting a reply with actually giving a clear answer, they do not equate automatically.
One of those questions was is it allowed for the 4 ashhur hurum to change from year to year? Someone even suggested that they CAN be arbitrary. Well here's what our Lord says and that's all that matters
936-37 Verily the count of the shuhur with the god is twelve in the book/ decree of the god the time He created the skies and the earth from them four are hurum. That is the straight/valuable obligation/ system so DO NOT OPPRESS/ WRONG yourselves within them. And fight the mushrikeen completely as they are fighting you all completely and know that the god is with the prudent/ careful/ fearing. The NASEE is only an increase in DISBELIEF, those who have disbelieved go astray with it making it lawful an aam and making it unlawful an aam in order to correspond with/ agree with the count of what the god prohibited so they make lawful what the god prohibited. Adorned for them is the EVIL of their works. And the god does not guide the disbelieving people.
Clearly from these verses, the 4 shahur are CONSISTENT EVERY YEAR and should NOT be violated. NEVER could they be arbitrary much less arbitrary from person to person. Maybe this is part of why the god mentions from the beginning that this is HIS COUNT and WE MUST follow it. If this wasn't the case, that we don't have to follow it in someway, then He wouldn't continue this topic with the issue of the nasee and calling it an INCREASE in DISBELIEF, how much stronger can this be expressed. If any weren't clear on the meaning of nasee the god is also actually explaining what it is in the verse. HE also describes this as EVIL work.
So no one has to worry about MAN's fancy words and arguments, the god has been very clear about what HE wants our obligation to be. The next natural question is WHAT makes them hurum, meaning how do we NOT oppress ourselves within them? No need for human interpretation and guessing.
594-95 O you who have believed, the god will surely TEST YOU by something of the game that your hands and your spears obtain/reach that the god knows/ make evident those who fear Him unseen. And whoever transgresses after that for him is a painful punishment. O you who have believed, DO NOT kill the game while you are prohibited/ restricted (hurum). And whoever kills it intentionally from you then a penalty equivalent of what he killed from the na'am judging by two just ones from you a gift reaching the base or an expiation the feeding of the poor or justice of that fasting, in order that he taste the consequence of his matter. The god has pardoned what is past but whoever returns then the god will exact retribution from him and the god is mighty owner of retribution.
He has also said clearly
52 O you who have believed DO NOT violate/ make lawful the sha'aair of the god nor the shahr haraam nor the hadya nor the qa'laaid nor those secure of the bayt haraam seeking fadl from their Lord and pleasure and when you are ALLOWED then HUNT...
So when we are hurum and we are hurum when the 4 ashhur hurum have come, then we are not to kill the game but we will be tested during this time. Part of this test is not only to acknowledge the hurum yet transgress therein but an increase in disbelief is to CHANGE it altogether. There is a painful punishment awaiting those who do this so again, another strong statement and not something to be taken lightly by ANY means.
Of course the god knows about a 13th full moon occurring during a solar year which is the only year to follow so that the seasons remain consistent and thus the 4 hurum but HE is telling us to only KEEP COUNTING 12. It's not actually IGNORED, it's there and it's COUNTED but counted again as a new number 1 instead of a 13 which would inevitably CHANGE the 4 hurum from year to year which is NOT ALLOWED. I didn't say so the god did. This 13th full moon is a TEST. How? When we try to use it to do nasee (or any other way to make this postponement like following a lunar calendar) and change what the god made unlawful.
AGAIN, the god knows the 13th full moon is there and so do we but HE made it clear that we only KEEP COUNTING 12, as He's been counting, so that WE DON'T violate what He prohibited! This extra full moon is a test for people just like the test of the game that their hands and spears reach but yet they must fear the god unseen.
This whole issue, definitely at the time of the reading and still today, seems to be a big TEST for people. They don't want to be restricted in this way and will try to find ways to violate this command yet this is EVIL with the god and earns His punishment. This is just like many of the other tests out there for us, like life and death itself, whether we will believe or we don't.
Who here is really willing to say that the 4 ashhur hurum have NOTHING to do with hunting and that it can be inconsistent from year to year?
Another angle to this is this verse;
4153 We will show them our signs in the horizons/ remote parts and within themselves until it is made clear for them that it is the truth. Is it not sufficient concerning your Lord that He is over all things a witness?
If we make the observation that these 4 ashhur hurum also coincide with certain circumstances related to game animals which is NOT a coincidence, and it helps us understand more about these 4 hurum then we can use that. Whether we start with the god's laws as written in the book or we sincerely look at His signs in the creation and reflect we should also find consistency between the two since HE is the author of both. We all can observe that the animals' behavior is not CHANGING from year to year.
When we look at this verse
2278-279 O you who have believed, fear the god and give up what remains of ribaa if you were believers. And if you do no, then be informed of a war from the god and His messenger. But if you repent, you may have your principals, do not oppress nor are you being oppressed.
Then we look to what is happening to interest and gambling based economies we can observe that the god spoke the truth, that His laws don't change, He means what He says and He doesn't break His promises.
Umm Tariq
-
Peace be upon all,
I have also noticed that many of the questions of inconsistency with 'month' have not been answered clearly and precisely. Maybe some confuse the issue of posting a reply with actually giving a clear answer, they do not equate automatically.
One of those questions was is it allowed for the 4 ashhur hurum to change from year to year? Someone even suggested that they CAN be arbitrary. Well here's what our Lord says and that's all that matters
936-37 Verily the count of the shuhur with the god is twelve in the book/ decree of the god the time He created the skies and the earth from them four are hurum. That is the straight/valuable obligation/ system so DO NOT OPPRESS/ WRONG yourselves within them. And fight the mushrikeen completely as they are fighting you all completely and know that the god is with the prudent/ careful/ fearing. The NASEE is only an increase in DISBELIEF, those who have disbelieved go astray with it making it lawful an aam and making it unlawful an aam in order to correspond with/ agree with the count of what the god prohibited so they make lawful what the god prohibited. Adorned for them is the EVIL of their works. And the god does not guide the disbelieving people.
Clearly from these verses, the 4 shahur are CONSISTENT EVERY YEAR and should NOT be violated. NEVER could they be arbitrary much less arbitrary from person to person. Maybe this is part of why the god mentions from the beginning that this is HIS COUNT and WE MUST follow it. If this wasn't the case, that we don't have to follow it in someway, then He wouldn't continue this topic with the issue of the nasee and calling it an INCREASE in DISBELIEF, how much stronger can this be expressed. If any weren't clear on the meaning of nasee the god is also actually explaining what it is in the verse. HE also describes this as EVIL work.
So no one has to worry about MAN's fancy words and arguments, the god has been very clear about what HE wants our obligation to be. The next natural question is WHAT makes them hurum, meaning how do we NOT oppress ourselves within them? No need for human interpretation and guessing.
594-95 O you who have believed, the god will surely TEST YOU by something of the game that your hands and your spears obtain/reach that the god knows/ make evident those who fear Him unseen. And whoever transgresses after that for him is a painful punishment. O you who have believed, DO NOT kill the game while you are prohibited/ restricted (hurum). And whoever kills it intentionally from you then a penalty equivalent of what he killed from the na'am judging by two just ones from you a gift reaching the base or an expiation the feeding of the poor or justice of that fasting, in order that he taste the consequence of his matter. The god has pardoned what is past but whoever returns then the god will exact retribution from him and the god is mighty owner of retribution.
He has also said clearly
52 O you who have believed DO NOT violate/ make lawful the sha'aair of the god nor the shahr haraam nor the hadya nor the qa'laaid nor those secure of the bayt haraam seeking fadl from their Lord and pleasure and when you are ALLOWED then HUNT...
So when we are hurum and we are hurum when the 4 ashhur hurum have come, then we are not to kill the game but we will be tested during this time. Part of this test is not only to acknowledge the hurum yet transgress therein but an increase in disbelief is to CHANGE it altogether. There is a painful punishment awaiting those who do this so again, another strong statement and not something to be taken lightly by ANY means.
Of course the god knows about a 13th full moon occurring during a solar year which is the only year to follow so that the seasons remain consistent and thus the 4 hurum but HE is telling us to only KEEP COUNTING 12. It's not actually IGNORED, it's there and it's COUNTED but counted again as a new number 1 instead of a 13 which would inevitably CHANGE the 4 hurum from year to year which is NOT ALLOWED. I didn't say so the god did. This 13th full moon is a TEST. How? When we try to use it to do nasee (or any other way to make this postponement like following a lunar calendar) and change what the god made unlawful.
AGAIN, the god knows the 13th full moon is there and so do we but HE made it clear that we only KEEP COUNTING 12, as He's been counting, so that WE DON'T violate what He prohibited! This extra full moon is a test for people just like the test of the game that their hands and spears reach but yet they must fear the god unseen.
This whole issue, definitely at the time of the reading and still today, seems to be a big TEST for people. They don't want to be restricted in this way and will try to find ways to violate this command yet this is EVIL with the god and earns His punishment. This is just like many of the other tests out there for us, like life and death itself, whether we will believe or we don't.
Who here is really willing to say that the 4 ashhur hurum have NOTHING to do with hunting and that it can be inconsistent from year to year?
Another angle to this is this verse;
4153 We will show them our signs in the horizons/ remote parts and within themselves until it is made clear for them that it is the truth. Is it not sufficient concerning your Lord that He is over all things a witness?
If we make the observation that these 4 ashhur hurum also coincide with certain circumstances related to game animals which is NOT a coincidence, and it helps us understand more about these 4 hurum then we can use that. Whether we start with the god's laws as written in the book or we sincerely look at His signs in the creation and reflect we should also find consistency between the two since HE is the author of both. We all can observe that the animals' behavior is not CHANGING from year to year.
When we look at this verse
2278-279 O you who have believed, fear the god and give up what remains of ribaa if you were believers. And if you do no, then be informed of a war from the god and His messenger. But if you repent, you may have your principals, do not oppress nor are you being oppressed.
Then we look to what is happening to interest and gambling based economies we can observe that the god spoke the truth, that His laws don't change, He means what He says and He doesn't break His promises.
Umm Tariq
Masha'allah.
-
Siki,
What a vile and mean attack. You have done nothing here but spit venom to counter the good sense that I make, the good sense that you and others don't want to understand. But that is on you, not me. Anyway I am going to have to resist the temptation to continue to post on this topic for a long time. It takes up too much time and returns very little divedends as it concerns progression in these discussions. I hope the silent readers are gaining insight from my comments. It is clear to me now that those who oppose me on this topic after all the time and effort I have taken to explain the specifics of this topic, oppose me as a point of personal pride or out of plain old stubborness. Now I'm sure some of you will respond to this post trying to throw these comments back at me with some extra insults, innapropirate comments, twisting of my points or some of the normal long winded vitriol. If you don't understand my points by now, whover you are, I forgive you for that. So don't fret. I honestly don't see anyone budging on any of these issues because there is too much evasion of actual questions and confusion of the issues intentionally being injected into this conversation. So, I just hope that after I withdrawal from this conversation that my fellow Quranist Muslims in this conversation don't foolishly declare victory in a show of ignorance and immaturity, or dedicate themselves to bashing me or misleading and misinforming readers about my conclusions on this issue. But if all of you want to continue discussing the 'shahr as full moon in the Quran' theory, feel welcome to do this with absolutely no more opposition from me. And naturally that is going to only apply to those who were actually giving my comments some importance or consideration. If you weren't, then what I just said won't even concern you. I have a family to attend to in my free time, and I have completed the goals with which I got involved in this discusson. So good day to all and as always . . . .
sun Godbless,
Anwar -
Peace,
I have also noticed that many of the questions of inconsistency with 'month' have not been answered clearly and precisely. Maybe some confuse the issue of posting a reply with actually giving a clear answer, they do not equate automatically.
One of those questions was is it allowed for the 4 ashhur hurum to change from year to year? Someone even suggested that they CAN be arbitrary. Well here's what our Lord says and that's all that matters
Topic is on full moon theory ? why change subject ask questions on other interpretations and skip answering questions pertaining to inconsistencies on full moon?
4 ashhur hurum ? how much time exactly is that between 4 full moons?
Is that 3 lunar months, according to your earlier calculations, right?
God prescribes different times (fixed constant) to different scenarios...
- Men who take vows fast 4 months... wait 4 full moons = 3 months (in the minimum)
- Those who accidently kill a believer fast 2 months... wait 2 full moons = 1 month (in the minimum)
- Travel the earth 4 months...travel for 4 full moons = 3 months (in the minimum)
If so which 3 months, during the winter when these animals breed?
Arabian oryx (Oryx leucoryx)
http//www.oryxoman.com/oryxfacts.html
Birth Season
Oryx may calve in any month of the year but there is a general pattern of births in the winter period December to April. This is thought to be largely the consequence of winter rains influencing conception.
Lastly, ignoring the 13th lunar month every 3 years is no different than intercalation or adding a month only they acknowledged and gave it a name while you simply skip it.
http//penelope.uchicago.edu/~grout/encyclopaedia_romana/calendar/intercalation.html
lunar month x 37 = 2.99152681 solar years (skip/ignore 1 makes 36)
-
Siki,
What a vile and mean attack. You have done nothing here but spit venom to counter the good sense that I make, the good sense that you and others don't want to understand. But that is on you, not me. Anyway I am going to have to resist the temptation to continue to post on this topic for a long time. It takes up too much time and returns very little divedends as it concerns progression in these discussions. I hope the silent readers are gaining insight from my comments. It is clear to me now that those who oppose me on this topic after all the time and effort I have taken to explain the specifics of this topic, oppose me as a point of personal pride or out of plain old stubborness. Now I'm sure some of you will respond to this post trying to throw these comments back at me with some extra insults, innapropirate comments, twisting of my points or some of the normal long winded vitriol. If you don't understand my points by now, whover you are, I forgive you for that. So don't fret. I honestly don't see anyone budging on any of these issues because there is too much evasion of actual questions and confusion of the issues intentionally being injected into this conversation. So, I just hope that after I withdrawal from this conversation that my fellow Quranist Muslims in this conversation don't foolishly declare victory in a show of ignorance and immaturity, or dedicate themselves to bashing me or misleading and misinforming readers about my conclusions on this issue. But if all of you want to continue discussing the 'shahr as full moon in the Quran' theory, feel welcome to do this with absolutely no more opposition from me. And naturally that is going to only apply to those who were actually giving my comments some importance or consideration. If you weren't, then what I just said won't even concern you. I have a family to attend to in my free time, and I have completed the goals with which I got involved in this discusson. So good day to all and as always . . . .
sun Godbless,
AnwarGod bless you brother, it had been a pleasure having you around this thread .
Had you not been fighting tooth and nail on this thread I would have been a little less convinced about Aymans theory. Indeed it is quite reassuring that even you, with your best efforts could not refute with any significant argument.
Thanks, handshake once again for all your hard work, and please dont take any thing personal, I have been evaluating every single argument with absolute neutrality to find the truth.
peace
siki
-
God bless you brother, it had been a pleasure having you around this thread .
Had you not been fighting tooth and nail on this thread I would have been a little less convinced about Aymans theory. Indeed it is quite reassuring that even you, with your best efforts could not refute with any significant argument.
Thanks, handshake once again for all your hard work, and please dont take any thing personal, I have been evaluating every single argument with absolute neutrality to find the truth.
peace
siki
Salaam Siki,
It?s one thing to be a bystander and claim you have made an evaluation. Do some hard work, research of your own and you may find the truth. Anwar has done has done that and, although I don?t wholly agree with him, he has made some very valid points. You bring your arguments in your own words and disprove his points with logic if you can, let's see you fighting tooth and nail and what you come up with.Thanks Nun deplume and Anwar for bringing very valid points. Although they may fall on deaf ears here they are not wasted.
peace -
Peace Nun,
I think that you seeing an inconsistency between how "full-moon" and "menstruations" are used as events for timing is a matter of your opinion, which you are entitled to. However, if you want to keep on endlessly repeating the same exact opinion, then just refer with a link to any one of your dozen or so debunked posts instead of crowding the thread with useless repetition. Moving on to other issues would be a more productive use of the reader's time and would give you a better chance to see the whole picture. So with this in mind, let's move to another mistake that you made as a result of not properly reading my article
If so which 3 months, during the winter when these animals breed?
If you read the article carefully, then you would have seen that the hunting restriction is not about breeding and it is not during winter. According to the great reading, the hunting restriction is during the hottest time of the year (it lasts the four full-moons after the summer solstice). If you study the general patterns in nature, then you will see that this is logical for the protection of young animals. The majority of game animals give birth in the mid spring - early summer timeframe and their mortality rate follows what is called a "bathtub" curve. Right after they are born, the biggest threat to them is dying naturally from diseases and birth defects. Once they start walking and venturing away from their home by summer then, without hunting restrictions, the biggest threat becomes human hunters. By fall, young animals are old and wise enough to fend for themselves and the hunting restriction can be lifted. Summer is also the time when crops and livestock are more plentiful so this gives people who may rely on hunting for sustenance other means to survive.
Peace,
Ayman
-
Peace Ayman,
Last questions only for clarity and we?ll leave it with agree to disagree...
According to the great reading, the hunting restriction is during the hottest time of the year (it lasts the four full-moons after the summer solstice).
4 full-moons equates to ? lunar months x 3 = 88.59177 days
Correct?
Summer is also the time when crops and livestock are more plentiful so this gives people who may rely on hunting for sustenance other means to survive.
Also, which summer months, North or South America ? Chicago or Buenos Aires?
-
Peace Nun,
Peace,
Topic is on full moon theory ? why change subject ask questions on other interpretations and skip answering questions pertaining to inconsistencies on full moon?I wasn't trying to change the subject but merely responding to a recent post where someone questioned whether the 4 hurum had anything to do with hunting. This IMPORTANT part of this topic of 'shahr' must have gotten swept under the carpet a bit but it can't. I actually addressed it before as well so it was always a part of this discussion.
4 ashhur hurum ? how much time exactly is that between 4 full moons?
Is that 3 lunar months, according to your earlier calculations, right?
Alhamdulillah you finally understand that when we say '4 full moons' we are using it as a MARKER and looking to the time period 'in between', alhamdulillah. You yourself posted my earlier conclusions so that answers your second question and NOTE that I put 'in the minimum' case, we covered various cases earlier as well.
Lastly, ignoring the 13th lunar month every 3 years is no different than intercalation or adding a month only they acknowledged and gave it a name while you simply skip it.
This is also part of why I had to post about the hunting part of the restriction (hurum). I explained we are not necessarily 'skipping' or 'ignoring' this 13th FULL MOON but we simply RESTART the count after we have counted 12 full moons just like the god said is a 'straight/ valuable obligation/system'. It makes perfect sense to me that there is a difference between a 'count of something' and a 'number of something' and that the god is being PRECISE when He uses the terminology that He does. I notice that in English sometimes we get confused and these differences go to the wayside but not so in the great reading. If we do that with the great reading, WE are making a big mistake.
So for all intents and purposes, this 13th full moon is COUNTED but not as 13 instead as a new number 1 for the next 12 full moons count. This is important since it has to do with keeping the 4 ashhur hurum CONSISTENT from year to year which the verses clearly show it is IMPERMISSIBLE any other way. Please reread the post and if you like you can answer the question I asked near the end of it.
Also Nun, we have been through this discussion for a long while now yet if you still feel that there are inconsistencies with the 'full moon' theory then please just restate them. Remember I began my discussion with you specifically so I can see your point of view and up until now, it has only convinced me that the view you expound is the weak one so I found no grounds to change my view about 'full moon'. Please don't take this as a personal attack on you, it's not, it's the opinion that I find no real support for from the great reading. Maybe on another topic we would agree wholeheartedly that's not what's important, it's trying to reach the truth which inherently doesn't fear investigation, doesn't bring inconsistencies and contradictions and is usually simple. I am sure that most of us here are tired of the lies being propagated in the name of the god so we just want to be certain from now on and take actions based on SURE knowledge not conjecture.
-
Peace Nun,
4 full-moons equates to ? lunar months x 3 = 88.59177 days
Correct?Yes.
Also, which summer months, North or South America ? Chicago or Buenos Aires?
It is the summer season where young animals need protection. Obviously, the summer solstice and therefore the scorching full-moon is different in the northern and southern hemispheres. This is logical since animals in the southern hemishpere follow the seasons in the southern hemisphere and those in the northern one follow their own season. Since the restriction is about hunting, this is actually further confirmation that the timing cannot be arbitrary and seasons must be aligned with the lunar cycle. Of course the only way to do this effortlessly and naturally is to ALWAYS count 12 full moons in a year and skip the occasional 13th. THERE IS NO OTHER WAY.
Peace,
Ayman
-
Peace Umm Tariq,
So for all intents and purposes, this 13th full moon is COUNTED but not as 13 instead as a new number 1 for the next 12 full moons count. This is important since it has to do with keeping the 4 ashhur hurum CONSISTENT from year to year which the verses clearly show it is IMPERMISSIBLE any other way.
Sister, the occasional 13th full moon is not counted because as per 936 and the meaning of the word count (counting out a of a population), we must count only 12 full-moons in a year out of the possible 12 or 13. So we have to skip counting the 13th completely. If we start recounting with the 13th as 1 then the seasons will be out of sync and we would have circumvented the god's command to count only 12 by calling the 13th "1". I just thought this may have needed clarification.
Peace,
Ayman
-
Peace Ayman,
Thanks for the quick reply, a few more for clarity...
Yes.
It is the summer season where young animals need protection. Obviously, the summer solstice and therefore the scorching full-moon is different in the northern and southern hemispheres. This is logical since animals in the southern hemishpere follow the seasons in the southern hemisphere and those in the northern one follow their own season. Since the restriction is about hunting, this is actually further confirmation that the timing cannot be arbitrary and seasons must be aligned with the lunar cycle. Of course the only way to do this effortlessly and naturally is to ALWAYS count 12 full moons in a year and skip the occasional 13th. THERE IS NO OTHER WAY.
Phases of the Moon
http//aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/MoonPhase.php2008 FULL MOON DATES
8 JAN. 22 ? (old/wolf full moon) Start restricted South America
9 FEB. 21
10 MAR. 21
11 APR. 20 ? End restricted South America
12 MAY 20
13 JUNE 18 (full moon not counted/skipped)
Summer Solstice 2008
1 JULY 18 ? (rose/strawberry full moon) Start restricted/fast North America
2 AUG. 16
3 SEPT. 15
4 OCT. 14 ? End restricted North America
5 NOV. 13
6 DEC. 12Restricted full moons are 8-11 and 1-4.
On what date should people in Argentina fast; their summer or winter?
IF events are on June 17, does the not counted full moon of June 18, 2008 count?
Example;
A man in Argentina died on June 17, 2008 until what date does his widow wait? 2234Peace
-
Peace Nun,
Thanks for the quick reply, a few more for clarity...
Phases of the Moon
http//aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/MoonPhase.php
2008 FULL MOON DATES
8 JAN. 22 ? (old/wolf full moon) Start restricted South America
9 FEB. 21
10 MAR. 21
11 APR. 20 ? End restricted South America
12 MAY 20
13 JUNE 18 (full moon not counted/skipped)
Summer Solstice 2008
1 JULY 18 ? (rose/strawberry full moon) Start restricted/fast North America
2 AUG. 16
3 SEPT. 15
4 OCT. 14 ? End restricted North America
5 NOV. 13
6 DEC. 12
Restricted full moons are 8-11 and 1-4.
On what date should people in Argentina fast; their summer or winter?They should fast in their summer not ours. Their scorching full-moon and therefore their restriction period will be after their summer solstice.
IF events are on June 17, does the not counted full moon of June 18, 2008 count?
Example;
A man in Argentina died on June 17, 2008 until what date does his widow wait? 2234The purpose of counting exactly 12 full-moons in a solar year (thereby skipping the 13th) out of which 4 are restricted is clearly stated in 936-37 as having to do with not viloting the restrication on hunting.
On the other hand, as far as waiting periods for marriage there is no skipping since we are simply to count 4 full-moon events + 10 days (i.e., until the crescent).
Peace,
Ayman
-
Dear Nun salam
I posted the below quote some 20 pages back , probably when you were sick, and hence missed it.
Although brohter Ayman has posted enough clarifications, I am requoting just in case it might help in improving your understanding.
quote.
He does not need our fastings, it is for us , it probably does something good to our bodies, so
He wants us to fast from the first light , which is probably the earliest possible marker, to the night(end of dusk/isha) last possible marker, He could have easily prescribed , "From sun rise to sun set", but he doesnt, why? May be he wants our bodies to toil through a longer duration to extract optimum benifit.
If long duration is the criteria then , fasting in summer solictise makes sense. Rotating through winters, a fast is hardly a fast , infact a winter day fast is like not fasting at all ,
The guys down under can fast during their Red moon for achieving the prescribed benifit, It does not have to be in synch with we living up here,
Moreover the Ayah , saying , who so ever witnesses it shall... is clearly indicating/saying, .... when your time comes do it, and what is that time? summer , longest days , THe toughest time of the year to Cycle our mortal bodies. And indirectly conveying that they should not do it with us , because it will be their winters.
siki