Number of wives?
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Peace Anna
I don't mean to belittle your analogy but you really need to hear the stories of women who have been through polygyny to really understand the psychological damage polygyny has on women and children. It truly is quite sad. Perhaps you would have a change of heart after you read them. There are many stories out there but the majority tend to show how polygyny breaks families rather than control the lustfulness of both males and females who only think of themselves rather than all those involved, ie. the first wife and the children.
http//www.thestar.com/News/GTA/article/429490
http//ourrewardsawaitus.blogspot.com/
http//vena-thoughtsof.blogspot.com/I agree completely with Maria (SwedenMaijidah). We women do need to be strong and put our faith in the One God. He is our protector, to Him do we seek guidance and to Him do we ask for help. No man can ever fill the void in our lives like God does.
salam,
im sorry but i dont agree,and it seems we are talking about 2 different things, quran, and society, if we talk about the quran then yes its ok to marry up to 4 wives and dont forget when god talk about rules its usually for those who are beleivers and obey. but if you are talking about society today , well thats a whole different story, today everything is abused not just marriage. so you cannot mix the 2 together , what islam is, and what is practiced..........well. -
Peace Anna,
Well it's your understanding/opinion that I have no clue of what religion is .
Everyone have their own understanding of what is God, religion/system, etc.I'm not willing to discuss it here in this thread because it will be fftopic.
The only thing I can say to you is that we shall unite and work together in our communities so our citizens have a good and humane life may it be males and females in all ages.
In Quran there are great examples for us to learn but as i hope you agree about is that males and females are equal and therefore we must help and support eachother always.
When people see themselves as some kind of victims then they will be victims, therefore I really want all women to not let themselves in that trap.
I think it's old thinking that women must suffer after a divorce, well both men and women suffer after splittings, and there are clear advice in Quran what to do to with children after divorces. I mean the father of the child have to pay for food etc for the child/children if they are not in his household because God wouldn't punish women for having babies because it's their nature when they are in a marriage.
Please sister don't paint up women as losers and victims then we will always exactly be that (
God care for us all, if we ask for help we will get help......
Peace
sis Mariasalam
actually and to be honest with you this remark you made really pissed me off
"""In cases of widows, well there is the society who bear the responsibility to help the needy.''''you speak of them as if they were born poor or somthing dont forget that the women who became widowed was becasue therehusbands gave there lives to islam, and i saw plenty of it in the last war in lebanon, many women who lost there husbands.....
and as far as women go, im not painting anything, women are not weak and victims, we are very strong and in light of reality we really dont need men, i am a perfect example last year alone in 9 months i worked the equavilent of 2 years in other words 64 hours a week and for 3 months straight i worked 84 a week, so we can work and support ourselves but again are you speaking of what society wants of us or what god wants of us. god does not bring rules into the world out of play and if we follow those rules then no, i dont think there would problems as stated on this thread with multiple marriages, the fault goes to those who are in them and how they deal with it. -
salam
ummmmm yes i understand what you are trying to say, butttttttttt if a man with 4 wives gets them all pregnant......and then you have a female with 4 men and she gets pregnant, you following me here.yes
i personnally beelive that a man is allowed 4 wives and please dont take tht right from us as females. first our salat is taken away now are men. it is our right to pray to god through salat (as a ritual) and it is out right as woman to marry men who are already married, the only problem is men dont want.
tell me when wars happened in the olden days and women were left with no men, are they to be denied companionship for the rest of there lives, are they simply ignored and thrown to the side becuase are husbands died for the cause of god but now we pay the price but living alone till death.i wish more men stood up like real men and married those who have no husbands. men are those who make or break this world, and so far im sorry to say, men have done a great job of breaking.Salam
I agree ) -
Assalaam Alaikum @Fahad...
Wrong! Address the ayah properly as I have taken the time to do....
Wain khiftum alla tuqsitoo fee alyatama fa VERBAL SENTENCE >>> inkihoo ADVERBAL MODIFIERS >>> MA TABA lakum minna <<< GENITIVE >>> alnnisai ADJECTIVES >>> mathna wathulatha warubaAAa <<< fain khiftum alla taAAdiloo fa ADJECTIVE Subject (Al Nisa) >>>> wahidatan <<< aw ma malakat aymanukum thalika adna alla taAAooloo
Ma is a negation Fahad...
Ma Negative particle when placed BEFORE a perfect verb (taba) or BEFORE a pronoun or BEFORE a demonstrative noun. Also used as a negative particle BEFORE a perfect tense among verbal forms.
Dictionary of the Holy Quran page 523-524 (ma)The TWO conditions have been met, the 'Ma' is BEFORE a perfect verb (taba) and BEFORE a perfect tense among a verbal form or sentence (inkihoo denotes the verbal sentence, 'Ma' is the FIRST adverbial modifier of the verbal form or sentence)
I await your 'cogent' response, that addresses the above grammatical references and context.
You haven't addressed the context yourself! You just pick a line from between and translate it as if you have don't know a thing about the context! You address the complete verse yourself first! Translate the rest of the verse and I will show you where you are wrong then.
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Assalaam Alaikum @Fahad
Fahad, please address the ayah, your personal opinion does NOT take precedence above the Quran.
Wa-ith taqoolu lillathee anAAama Allahu AAalayhi waanAAamta AAalayhi
amsik AAalayka zawjaka waittaqi Allaha / amsik AAalayka zawjaka waittaqi Allaha = Keep your dignity with your wife/mate and have regard for Allahwa tukhfee fee nafsika / and Be aware of your soul;your inner feelings
ma Allahu mubdeehi watakhsha alnnasa waAllahu ahaqqu an takhshahuBeginning of a Verbal Sentence>>>>>
fa / conjunctive particle lamma qada zaydun minha wataran zawwaj nakaha li-kaa (for YOU) la yakoona AAala almu/mineena harajun fee azwaji adAAiya-ihim itha qadaw minhunna wataran wakana amru Allahi mafAAoolan
Fahad, Address the ayah properly and indicate to myself and the readers where my 'understanding is way off'
I await your response regarding the ayah.
Again, you haven't addressed the ayah yourself, just a portion of it. Translate the complete ayah first!
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This is so people do not remain unmarried. There is no prohibition against polygyny here.
Assalaam Alaikum @Fahad
If you think rationally and logically regarding Sura 2432, the 'prohibition' you claim is NOT there is actually implied by the 'acceptance' of the ayah by BOTH Males and Females.
MARRY THOSE AMONG YOU WHO ARE SINGLE, and the virtuous ones among yourselves, male or female. if they are in poverty, Allah will give them means out of His grace. for Allah encompasseth all, and he knoweth all things.
Fahad, think as I mentioned in previous posts If all Females who are approached by Married Males gave the Men this ayah and vice versa.
Why would they give this ayah to those who approach to marry them, unless the women are already married, seeing there is no prohibition for polygyny, just a command to not leave people unmarried in 24/32?! Does Allah want these women to remain unmarried and childless?! Doesn't Allah give every women the right to a family?!
Fahad, What is the affect upon the practice of polygamy/polygyny?
What do you mean?
By the way I believe the ayah is Mukhamat / governing
You have no idea. Muhkamaat are undisputed ayaat.
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So now polygamy is being put along side the oppression of women! There are unmarried and widowed women out there, women without family and children, who wouldn't mind being even fifth, sixth or seventh wife of a man. Monogamists deprive women of their needs. THAT'S oppression! THAT'S injustice! Selfish people!
Assalaam Alaikum @Fahad
Yes, Fahad If you or any other man suggests to a woman that he can 'possess' her as an additional wife EVEN though YOU KNOW that Allah,swt has NOT given you that right....
Yes..YOU are oppressing that Female and Allah does NOT take that lightly
"Possessing" one wife is ok? But "possessing" two is oppression? How?
Fahad, Allah,swt did NOT say 'Go Forth and Multiply', thats Bible....
Allah,swt states in the Quran...
O mankind! reverence your Guardian-Lord, who created you from a single soul/ , created of like nature, its mate, and from that soul created countless men and women;- reverence / Allah, through whom you demand your mutual (rights), AND REVERENCE THE WOMBS (AL-Arhama)/ .
for Allah ever watches over you. /Fahad, Allah is indicating in the above ayah, that Women are a 'special creation' from Allah.
Both men and women are special.
Thus Allah is instructing the Males to have regard for Allah 'AND' the 'wombs' (AL-Arhama)/ .
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The address is to both males and females.
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Leaving women unmarried and childless, thats your definition of having regard for al-arhaam?
We recognize as Muslims ONE entity worthy of worship that is Allah, the same regard and recognition we have for Allah is the same regard and recognition Allah is commanding us to have as it relates to Women, ONE lifetime commitment to ONE Woman, period.
How do you figure that out seeing that Allah is singular and al-arhaam is plural?
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Assalaam Alaikum @Fahad..
Since you want to play this 'tit for tat' game, Im sorry perhaps I expected too much from you. I am fully capable of understanding what Allah is indicating in Sura Nisa 43 & Sura Al Ahzab 3337 & 3350.
The argument was whether Allah has brought an end to any excesses in regards to marrying women, the answer is reflected in Sura Al Ahzab 3337.
I am fully confident that you are not in any position to prove me wrong in any context regarding the topic and what Allah has indicated to me regarding the position Allah wants Men to take.
One point that I would like to address with you is that its NOT you that determines whether a woman is married or is childless.
And Allah has made for you mates (and companions) of your own nature, and made for you, out of them, sons and daughters and grandchildren, and provided for you sustenance of the best. will they then believe in vain things, and be ungrateful for Allah's favours?-
Allah doth know what every female (womb) doth bear, by how much the wombs fall short (of their time or number) or do exceed. Every single thing is before His sight, in (due) proportion.
Allahu yaAAlamu ma tahmilu kullu ontha wama tagheedu alarhamu wama tazdadu wakullu shayin AAindahu
bimiqdarin@Fahad, when you are prepared to discuss the topic intelligently, please let me know and respond accordingly.
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Asalaam Alaikum @Fahad
Lets clarify the topic and focus....
Wain khiftum alla tuqsitoo fee alyatama fa Conjunctive particle VERBAL SENTENCE >>> inkihoo ADVERBAL MODIFIERS >>> MA TABA lakum minna <<< GENITIVE >>> alnnisai ADJECTIVES >>> mathna wathulatha warubaAAa <<< fain khiftum alla taAAdiloo fa Another Conjunctive particle ADJECTIVE Subject (Al Nisa) >>>> wahidatan <<< aw ma malakat aymanukum thalika adna alla taAAooloo
*Conjunctive particle begins a sentence; successive order
Wa-ith taqoolu lillathee anAAama Allahu AAalayhi waanAAamta AAalayhi amsik AAalayka zawjaka waittaqi Allaha watukhfee fee nafsika ma Allahu mubdeehi watakhsha alnnasa waAllahu ahaqqu an takhshahu fa lamma qada zaydun minha wataran zawwaj nakaha li-kaa (for YOU) la yakoona AAala almu/mineena harajun fee itha qadaw have ended minhunna wataran wakana amru Allahi mafAAoolan
@Fahad dont worry we will get through the entire ayah, not a problem.
Now please, I await your cogent response, suggesting that you can 'prove me wrong'.
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Salams
Going slightly off track here but according to 42, "To orphans restore their property nor substitute worthless things for good ones; and devour not their substance with your own. For this is indeed a great sin," it's pretty clear that the orphans the Quran is mentioning here are the ones in your care. So connecting that with 43, it is pretty clear that the "orphan" women that are permitted for marriage here, have to already be under the care of the maintainer.
I also looked at 2240 "Those of you who die and leave widows should bequeath for their widows a year's maintenance and residence, but if they leave, there is no blame on YOU for what they do with themselves, provided it is reasonable, And Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise." Who is the YOU referring to here? Is it the maintainer assigned by the widower's husband? Surely it can't be the widowers husband since he's already dead. How can he even be blamed if he's already dead?
So my understanding is that whoever was assigned caretaker of the orphans, has the opportunity to marry the "orphan" women for fear of not being able to deal justly with the orphans. Once a man marries the "orphan" women, they automatically become his responsibility as governed by the quran's marital laws. So it's not a right for any man to simply marry any woman if he desires to do so.
Peace
Nobody took out the time to respond to my post. Polygyny has been discussed on free-minds many a times with the same issues being discussed over and over again. If there is such a thing as polygyny, then what needs to be studied are the two main verses that are directly related to polygyny, ie. 43 and 4127. It is clear that the women permitted for marriage are those described as "yataamaa al nisaa."
All you men who are in favor of polygyny and women, I suppose; need to look into who these "yataamaa al nisaa" are before accusing women in society today as being weak in faith. I don't believe that women today are any different to women in the past. We have the same emotions, we hurt the same, we love the same; we are no different. What has changed, as most of us here on free-minds agree is the practice of Islam.
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pr Thanks almighty
For not blessings us with any female messengers
Assalaam Alaikum @siki...
Dont be too sure of that...
Of some Messengers We have already told you the story; OF OTHERS WE HAVE NOT;- and to Moses Allah spoke direct;-
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Peace
Nobody took out the time to respond to my post. Polygyny has been discussed on free-minds many a times with the same issues being discussed over and over again. If there is such a thing as polygyny, then what needs to be studied are the two main verses that are directly related to polygyny, ie. 43 and 4127. It is clear that the women permitted for marriage are those described as "yataamaa al nisaa."
All you men who are in favor of polygyny and women, I suppose; need to look into who these "yataamaa al nisaa" are before accusing women in society today as being weak in faith. I don't believe that women today are any different to women in the past. We have the same emotions, we hurt the same, we love the same; we are no different. What has changed, as most of us here on free-minds agree is the practice of Islam.
Yatama does not mean 'orphan'...misinterpretation
yateem means 'orphan'
Wayastaftoonaka fee alnnisai quli Allahu yufteekum feehinna wa ma yutla AAalaykum fee alkitabi fee yatama alnnisai allatee la tutoonahunna ma kutiba lahunna watarghaboona an tankihoohunna waalmustadAAafeena mina alwildani waan taqoomoo lilyatama bialqisti wama tafAAaloo min khayrin fainna Allaha kana bihi AAaleeman
hmm...'orphan women'?
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I understand that yatama does not mean orphan however since I was not sure of the right definition for yatama, I chose to put orphan in quotations. So could you tell me what yatama means exactly?
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I understand that yatama does not mean orphan however since I was not sure of the right definition for yatama, I chose to put orphan in quotations. So could you tell me what yatama means exactly?
For the sake of duplication and brevity, please refer to page #2 from this thread http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597268.15
Couple posts in..Yatama is defined with references and Yateem
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Peace Muslimtruthrevealed
Please excuse me for not reading your previous posts on page 2. It certainly has brought a new understanding for me with regards to verse 43. However, according to your understanding of the word yatama, how does it actually tie in with verse 42? Who's property is Allah telling us to restore, nor substitute worthless things for their good ones, etc...?
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Yatama does not mean 'orphan'...misinterpretation
yateem means 'orphan'
Wayastaftoonaka fee alnnisai quli Allahu yufteekum feehinna wa ma yutla AAalaykum fee alkitabi fee yatama alnnisai allatee la tutoonahunna ma kutiba lahunna watarghaboona an tankihoohunna waalmustadAAafeena mina alwildani waan taqoomoo lilyatama bialqisti wama tafAAaloo min khayrin fainna Allaha kana bihi AAaleeman
hmm...'orphan women'?
salam,
i would just like to say that this post is not of my own words, this belongs to a friend of mine from another forum and hes actually the one who introduced me to this forum,i have edited out very little of it, this is concerning......well, you read... of course i agree with him, both him and i coming from an arabic backgroundFirst
The Quran , in the original Arabic text, does NOT use the word "female" . There is no "female" anywhere in the text of verse 4127.Here is the text in Arabic
The word . (Nisa'a). This word means "WOMEN", not "females". For your info, the Arabic word for "female" is . "Untha".
The opposite of "untha" is "zhakar"
Hence
"untah" = female
"zhakar" = male.While
"nisa'a" = women
"rijal" = menNow you will ask of course So what? What is the diference between "untha" and "nisa'a"? Are they not synonymous?
NO, they are NOT synonymous. Anyone who claims they are synonymous is
1- Ignorant in Arabic.
2- Unaware of the Quran's precision
3- Corrupting the message.Even in English, FEMALE and WOMAN are not necessarily the same. To rephrase that Every woman is a female. But not every female is a woman.
A female could be a dog, sheep, horse, plant, or a three-year old child.
A woman is a grown adult human, passed the age of orphanageIf you can't see this difference, and stubbornly insist on ignoring it, then stop reading further. God is precise in using His words. Your scholars are apparently incapable of grasping this accuracy.
When Mr. Shakir and Mr. Pickthal used the word "females" in their translation of verse 4127, they ended up corrupting the text. (Wether intentionally or unintentionally, only God can tell, and I' not in a position to judge).
They should have used the word "WOMEN".
Second
A WOMAN, ( ة is a grown-up adult. There is no such thing as an ORPHAN WOMAN.
Have you ever heard of an ORPHAN MAN...?
When Pickthal translated the verse as such { Say Allah makes known to you His decision concerning them, and that which is recited to you in the Book concerning female orphans whom you do not give what is appointed for them while you desire to marry them}
He not only corrupted the text (which mentions WOMEN not females), but also condoned pedophilia.
How in God's name do you marry an orphan?! Open your eyes man, for God's sake!!! An orphan is a child!
How can you be so blind?In Arabic, an orphan = a child who has lost his father.
The Quran is talking about marrying the WOMEN WHO ARE THE MOTHERS OF THE ORPHANS!!!! not the orphans themselves!!.
The phrase (The orphans OF women meaning the orphans belonging to the women) does NOT mean (orphan women). There's no such thing as an "orphan women" to begin with (woman = grown up past the age of orphanage).
The correct translation of 4127 is
{And they seek a ruling regarding the women, say ?God will give you a ruling regarding them and what is being recited to you in the Scripture regarding the orphans of women whom you wish to marry, but have not given them (the women) what was decreed for them; as well as the weak from the children That you stand for the orphans in equality.? Whatever good you do, then God is aware of it.}.
It is giving a license to men to marry the mothers of orphans (meaning marry the widows, in order to properly take care of their orphan children). God is exempting these men from paying the dowry.
So tell me,...who is "twisting" and "manipulating" now?
I defy anyone on this forum who speaks Arabic to debate with me, face to face, and prove me wrong. Let him step forward now. I challenge him.
I want someone who understands Arabic grammar and vocabulary. Not someone who blindly follows corrupt translations without being able to verify the original Arabic text.Your "traditional" interpretations are corrupt, ignorant in Arabic, and endorse pedophilia.
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Peace Anna,
Very good post this last one of yours(and your friend).
Maria