Who are the people of the book?
-
Are you saying that the verses I listed are referring to Muslims too? Interesting! So Muslims must follow the Bible too?
Technically you will find mu'slims following "the book", but whether "the bible" is the same as what it was, is another question altogether.
Firstly, it's not in it's original language. And we all know that the Quran is not in anything but it's original language.
As for the term "people of the book", "ahl al kitab", it can easily be translated into "people of the bible".
I believe the Christians translate "the bible" into arabic as "al kitab" as well. Or "the holy bible" "al-kitab al-muqadis"
Oh and technically since the Talmudic jews rejected the Torah and created their own traditions of their fathers (talmud), they may not be included in that.
But then again, there are 2 billion Christians, with big missionary efforts on converting the planet into Evangelical Christianity... we might just end up seeing the whole world under the title of "people of the bible".
-
Technically you will find mu'slims following "the book", but whether "the bible" is the same as what it was, is another question altogether.
Firstly, it's not in it's original language. And we all know that the Quran is not in anything but it's original language.
As for the term "people of the book", "ahl al kitab", it can easily be translated into "people of the bible".
I believe the Christians translate "the bible" into arabic as "al kitab" as well. Or "the holy bible" "al-kitab al-muqadis"
Oh and technically since the Talmudic jews rejected the Torah and created their own traditions of their fathers (talmud), they may not be included in that.
But then again, there are 2 billion Christians, with big missionary efforts on converting the planet into Evangelical Christianity... we might just end up seeing the whole world under the title of "people of the bible".
Assalaam Alaikum @Far
May suggest a review of page #15 http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9596838.210
'People of The Book' has been clearly defined. As well as Al-Toori and Al Tawrat.
-
Assalaam Alaikum @Far
May suggest a review of page #15 http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9596838.210
'People of The Book' has been clearly defined. As well as Al-Toori and Al Tawrat.
You said that "'The Book' Al Kitab has NOTHING to do with Old Testament or New Testament Bible/Torah".
In what way do you say this?
They had "salat" during the time of the Old Testament and the gospels.
As for what they called themselves, they did not call themselves followers as in "jews" or "christians", they refered to themselves regarding location or tribe.
-
You said that "'The Book' Al Kitab has NOTHING to do with Old Testament or New Testament Bible/Torah".
In what way do you say this?
They had "salat" during the time of the Old Testament and the gospels.
As for what they called themselves, they did not call themselves followers as in "jews" or "christians", they refered to themselves regarding location or tribe.
They were NOT reciting from the Bible or Torah...the Quran makes that clear...please review page #15
And the Yahood/Jews say, ?That Nasara/Christians are not on anything.? And the Nasara/Christians say? that the Yahood/Jews are not on anything.? And both of them are reciting AL-KITAB/THE BOOK. ?? Like unto their word is what those say who know not; but Allah will judge between them in their quarrel on the Day of Judgment.
-
salam
just an opinion tell me what you ppl think, god talks about all the different books that came down , i was wondering if god ever uses the word book in plural as kutob or just kitab, we must remember that he has the mother of all books and the books that came down are really chapters of the mother book, so maybe when he speaks of ahil lkitab, hes speaking of the mother book itself. whats your opinions on that -
They were NOT reciting from the Bible or Torah...the Quran makes that clear...please review page #15
And the Yahood/Jews say, That Nasara/Christians are not on anything. And the Nasara/Christians say that the Yahood/Jews are not on anything. And both of them are reciting AL-KITAB/THE BOOK. ?? Like unto their word is what those say who know not; but Allah will judge between them in their quarrel on the Day of Judgment.
Then where were they reciting from. Are you insisting that we reject any notion that "the bible" has any word from the god?
Another thing, regarding - you state that it's not , but isn't in reference to "the mountain" as in Mount Sinai?
Below is Lane's rendition of
Tay-Waw-Ra = went or hovered round about it, approach, time or one time, repeated times, quantity/measure/extent/limit, aspect/form/disposition, way of action, manner, kind/class, stage/state, Mount Sinai, Mount of Olives, applied to several other mountains, mountain which produces trees, mountain, wild or to estrange oneself from mankind, stranger, utmost point, encounter two extremes.
-
Then where were they reciting from. Are you insisting that we reject any notion that "the bible" has any word from the god?
Another thing, regarding - you state that it's not , but isn't in reference to "the mountain" as in Mount Sinai?
Below is Lane's rendition of
Tay-Waw-Ra = went or hovered round about it, approach, time or one time, repeated times, quantity/measure/extent/limit, aspect/form/disposition, way of action, manner, kind/class, stage/state, Mount Sinai, Mount of Olives, applied to several other mountains, mountain which produces trees, mountain, wild or to estrange oneself from mankind, stranger, utmost point, encounter two extremes.
'Mount Sinai' is a Biblical metaphor, that was selected by the translator
And the Mount of Sinai,
Wa toori seeneena
toori manner, way of action, kind, class, limit, time(repeated action), stage, state
Dictionary of the Holy Quran page 345 (tara)Seeneena to act with piety by following ordinances and prohibitions of Allah. Good or pious way of acting. Light, shining, gleaming, fire, to make easy,, to raise, exalt or elevate, REVOLUTION, RETURN, APPLIED TO A PORTION OF TIME
Lanes Lexicon Book 4 page 1448- 1450Again, the translator has incorporated the 'script' from the movie 'Ten Commandments' into the Quran.
Toori is NOT Torah and Seeneena is NOT 'Sinai'
-
'Mount Sinai' is a Biblical metaphor, that was selected by the translator
And the Mount of Sinai,
Wa toori seeneena
toori manner, way of action, kind, class, limit, time(repeated action), stage, state
Dictionary of the Holy Quran page 345 (tara)Seeneena to act with piety by following ordinances and prohibitions of Allah. Good or pious way of acting. Light, shining, gleaming, fire, to make easy,, to raise, exalt or elevate, REVOLUTION, RETURN, APPLIED TO A PORTION OF TIME
Lanes Lexicon Book 4 page 1448- 1450Again, the translator has incorporated the 'script' from the movie 'Ten Commandments' into the Quran.
Toori is NOT Torah and Seeneena is NOT 'Sinai'
I did not say that "toori" is "torah".
By the way, where did you get "Lane's Lexicon Book 4 page 1448 - 1450" from?
I got that definition from here
http//www.studyquran.co.uk/22_TAY.htm
-
salam pvb. to answer your question, yes.
i believe that because muslims are people of the book the verses that say, people of the book are to obey the torah and injeel, apply to muslims as well.
i see no basis in the quran for the claims of people who reject the torah and injeel. their deceit in claiming they accept the torah and injeel, then turning around and refusing to obey the torah and injeel, by claiming they are corrupted or that the quran is complete, is just that, very dishonest and deceitful.
allah is the lawgiver.
-
There is no ayah in the Quran that says 'Obey Torah and Injeel'. Why are some of you so bent on attaching the Torah and Bible to the Quran?
Injil;root words is NAJA?A means relaxation, wholesome, useful, beneficial & NAJA means to save, be saved, be rescued, safety, get away, be delivered, confide, confidant, entrust, take one into confidence & NAJAL means to beget, father, sire, son(sun), progeny; ALL meanings of Injil, successively.
Hans Wehr Arabic English Dictionary 4th Ed. page 1107 (najuba) ? page 1109 (naja?a) ? page 1110 (naja)
Now the 'Bible'......
Biblos is given a false generic meaning ?Burnt Bricks? and in Hebrew Bible ?Babel? means ?confusion?. However it is not a Greek word but adopted by them from the Caannanite/Phoenicians who gave them their alphabet it means ?burnt bricks? from Babylon or BIBLE-On.
So in the infinite wisdom of the Creator, I must follow a 'written' document in its linguistic and cultural definitive means 'confusion'.
Now does that sound logical?
-
Peace Al Araf,
i believe that because muslims are people of the book the verses that say, people of the book are to obey the torah and injeel, apply to muslims as well.
The Quran says that God explains the Torah and the Injeel, and since the reading is a confirmation of both books, the Quran is all we need to follow and obey regarding these other writings. There's no certainty that the scriptural passages in the Bible cannon are actually the same inspired Torah and Injeel that God sent to the prophets. Many of the books have been mistranslated, misinterpreted, and others are missing completely. So, I definately disagree with the concept that we must follow the Torah and Injeel in the form of the "Bible" cannon used by Christians today. Many aspects of the Torah and Bible cannon that we have today completely conflict with the Quran, so it's evident that we can't follow both of them. If one is right and the other is wrong, which would you choose? God tells us in the scriptures to follow the QURAN ALONE, not the Torah and Injeel. Those scriptures were for certain people at certain times in certain areas, while the Quran is a fully detailed message to the entire world...
Peace,
Ahmad
-
Peace Al Araf,
The Quran says that God explains the Torah and the Injeel, and since the reading is a confirmation of both books, the Quran is all we need to follow and obey regarding these other writings. There's no certainty that the scriptural passages in the Bible cannon are actually the same inspired Torah and Injeel that God sent to the prophets. Many of the books have been mistranslated, misinterpreted, and others are missing completely. So, I definately disagree with the concept that we must follow the Torah and Injeel in the form of the "Bible" cannon used by Christians today. Many aspects of the Torah and Bible cannon that we have today completely conflict with the Quran, so it's evident that we can't follow both of them. If one is right and the other is wrong, which would you choose? God tells us in the scriptures to follow the QURAN ALONE, not the Torah and Injeel. Those scriptures were for certain people at certain times in certain areas, while the Quran is a fully detailed message to the entire world...
Peace,
Ahmad
Assalaam Alaikum @Ahmad
Brotha, Allah does NOT say, suggest or imply that 'I explain' or 'the Quran explains' Torah or Bible.
Nor does Allah say, suggest or imply that the Quran ' confirms these documents!
Lastly, the 'historical' Jesus /Essa did NOT walk around with a 'Bible' under his arm. Nor did the 'historical' Moses / Muusa walk around with the 'Torah' scrolls.
Not ONE ayah exists that says, states, suggests or implies that Allah gave Jesus / Essa the Bible or Moses / Muusa the 'Torah'
These assertions are the delusions and corruptions of humans, who have been taught to 'leech' themselves to the guidance of Allah in order to 'dilute' the true aspect of guidance.
The majority of people commenting in this thread particularly view the Quran as a 'philosophy' or 'history' book, to be critiqued and interpreted anyway they choose. You even have one individual just changing every reference to Tawrat / The Law to 'Torah', then suggesting this is what Allah meant. D
These same individuals use Hebrew and Biblical resources to suggest that the Quran has some relevance to the 'Torah' and 'Bible', because the linguistic patterns are similar. Thus implying that the 'Torah' and 'Bible' are 'documents that existed BEFORE the Quran.
When the Quran itself states 'Nothing came before it'....
And you did NOT recite before this Book YOU did NOT TRANSCRIBE / WRITE it with YOUR right hand / Hands. In that case, indeed, would the talkers of vanities have doubted.
What! have We given them a Book before this, to which they are holding fast?
No! they say. "We found our fathers following a certain religion, and we do guide ourselves by their footsteps."
Say. "Do you see what it is you invoke besides Allah? Show me what it is THEY HAVE CREATED ON EARTH, or have they a share IN THE HEAVENS bring me a Book BEFORE THIS , or ANY REMNANT OF KNOWLEDGE , if you are telling the truth!
We do relate unto you the most beautiful of stories, in that We reveal to you this (portion of the) Qur'an. before this, you too was among those who knew it not.
-
Assalaam Alaikum @Ahmad
Brotha, Allah does NOT say, suggest or imply that 'I explain' or 'the Quran explains' Torah or Bible.
Nor does Allah say, suggest or imply that the Quran ' confirms these documents!
rotfl Really MTR
Read the verses from earlier in this thread http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9596838.msg174867#msg174867Lastly, the 'historical' Jesus /Essa did NOT walk around with a 'Bible' under his arm. Nor did the 'historical' Moses / Muusa walk around with the 'Torah' scrolls.
How old are you that you can bear witness to this statement? Or are you speaking about something that you have no knowledge of?
Not ONE ayah exists that says, states, suggests or implies that Allah gave Jesus / Essa the Bible or Moses / Muusa the 'Torah'
I guess you are not familiar with the above verses here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9596838.msg174867#msg174867
nor have you specifically paid attention to 544-46.These assertions are the delusions and corruptions of humans, who have been taught to 'leech' themselves to the guidance of Allah in order to 'dilute' the true aspect of guidance.
Opinions based on speculation without direct knowledge....interesting.
The majority of people commenting in this thread particularly view the Quran as a 'philosophy' or 'history' book, to be critiqued and interpreted anyway they choose.
Wow what a bold statement, have you asked the majority of people commenting on this thread if that is their view? or are you making more false statements based on your imagination?
You even have one individual just changing every reference to Tawrat / The Law to 'Torah', then suggesting this is what Allah meant.
Torah has retained the same meaning in Hebrew, Aramaic and Arabic for thousands of years. You seem to be one of the few who fail to comprehend this. Many of us here have proved this to you repeatedly.
These same individuals use Hebrew and Biblical resources to suggest that the Quran has some relevance to the 'Torah' and 'Bible', because the linguistic patterns are similar. Thus implying that the 'Torah' and 'Bible' are 'documents that existed BEFORE the Quran.
The Bible is not a Semitic book. It is a compilation of books that has come to be known as the Bible in English. The compilation includes the Old Testament which is an English translation of the Tanakh, The Gospels which is a translated version of the Greek New Testament and has nothing to do with the Aramaic and the Writings of Paul.
The Bible is an English translation of many books, and as such should not even be considered a part of this discussion.The Torah is the First Five books of the Tanakh.
The Injeel is the teaching of Jesus in Aramaic.
However, no matter how you phrase it....YES....all of these books were HERE before Muhammad recieved the Quran. There is NO doubt about this religiously or historically.
When the Quran itself states 'Nothing came before it'....
And you did NOT recite before this Book YOU did NOT TRANSCRIBE / WRITE it with YOUR right hand / Hands. In that case, indeed, would the talkers of vanities have doubted.
What! have We given them a Book before this, to which they are holding fast?
No! they say. "We found our fathers following a certain religion, and we do guide ourselves by their footsteps."
Say. "Do you see what it is you invoke besides Allah? Show me what it is THEY HAVE CREATED ON EARTH, or have they a share IN THE HEAVENS bring me a Book BEFORE THIS , or ANY REMNANT OF KNOWLEDGE , if you are telling the truth!
We do relate unto you the most beautiful of stories, in that We reveal to you this (portion of the) Qur'an. before this, you too was among those who knew it not.
Are you seriously trying to present those verses as evidence for your misguided statements? Try again. jedi
Salam,
Arnab -
salam ahmed belal. allah is not daeef like human beings.
allah says to observe the torah and injeel or else you stand on nothing. do you want to take the risk that on the day of judgment, because you did not observe the torah and injeel, that allah will tell you, that you stood on nothing? no intelligent person would take that risk.
there are four possibilities as to who the people of the book are. would allah tell a jew to observe the torah? that makes no sense, a jew observes the torah. would allah tell the christians to observe the torah and injeel? that makes no sense either, a christian does obseve the torah and injeel. would allah tell the muslims to observe the torah and injeel? yes, of course, because most muslims refuse to observe the torah and injeel. would allah tell jews, christians, and muslims to observe the torah and injeel? of course he would.
the conclusion is without a doubt muslims are commanded to observe the torah and injeel in at least two of the possible situations. the same as he tells the jews and christians to observe the torah and injeel. do you not see the wisdom and equity in the manner in which allah commands muslims? do not defy the command of allah. observe the torah and injeel as he has commanded.
allah is the truth.
-
Assalaam Alaikum
Let the People of the Injeel / Ahlu al-Injeeli judge by what Allah has revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah has revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.
Who are the 'People of Injeel'?
Give the reference from the Quran please.
I await your response to this question.
By the way, your personal opinion and negative characterization of me, has no value or influence upon the intellectual benefit of this discussion. In essence, its NOT about 'You' or me. The 'picture is bigger than 'You' or I.
-
Salaam to all
Interesting discussion going on here.... However, the truth in this is issue is indeed obvious... The people of Musa and Isa did receive their own respective book... Else, we will have to re-define the meaning of the word book which is being used by God in so many verses... I think you guys missed this verse... Scrutinize and study this one...
3223 As-Sajdah
"And certainly We gave the Book to Musa, so be not in doubt concerning the receiving of it, and We made it a guide for the children of Israel."
Allah used the word Al-Kitab (The Book) ... He affirms that he gave Musa the Book and is asking the messenger not be astonished when the book (The Tawrat) reach him... It definitely means a physical book here... Else Allah would not have used the word LIQAA which literally means MEET ... Were it only words, then most probably Allah would have used the words SAMI3A - TO HEAR instead, similar to the many other places where He used the word as such...
Now brothers, read this verse well again and again, you definitely conclude that Allah is warning us not to doubt upon the reception of these previous scriptures...
A little note about this verse
There are some bad translation of this verse where translators translate the pronoun as referring to Musa than the Book and try synchronise this verse with their Mi'raj Hadith and tale... When you read this verse with a sound mind, you will definitely notice that the subject of this verse is the Book and not Musa. Here is a wrong translation from Hilali Khan
"And indeed We gave Musa (Moses) the Scripture . So be not you in doubt of meeting him . And We made it a guide to the Children of Israel."
Where does this guy find this extra information and distort this verse... Therefore changing the meaning totally... May Allah protect us from this...
Now check this one... He translated same pronoun, first he reffered it to Musa, and 2nd he referred it to the Tawrat... What is this mess?
"And we did give Moses the Book; be not then in doubt concerning the meeting with him; and we made it a guidance to the children of Israel."
So how on earth can he use same pronoun and link it back to 2 things... Does he not know that, had Allah need to make reference to both... He would have used HOUMAA... which is the pronoun used for 2 persons...
Hope to hear back
-
Assalaam Alaikum..
Again, your just interpolating the reference to 'Torah', Im sorry its NOT there.
It is He Who sent down to you (step by step), in truth, the Book / Al Kitab, confirming what is between your two hands / musaddiqan li ma bayna yadayhi; and He sent down the Law / Al Tawrat and the Injeel / Al Injeel
(revealed) FROM BEFORE, as a guidance to mankind / min qablu hudan lilnnasi, and it is He who has revealed / anzala the standard by which to discern the true from the false / Al-Furqan. Behold, as for those who are bent on denying God's signs / kafaroo bi ayati Allahi - grievous suffering awaits them for God is almighty, an avenger of evil.
Al Tawrat was revealed BEFORE Muusa,as to ALL Humankind, Muusa,as and Essa,as are NOT mentioned in the previous ayahs!
All the Prophets were given Al Tawrat.....
? It was We who revealed the Law / Al Tawrat therein was guidance and light. By its standard have been judged the guided, by the prophets / Al-Nabiyyoona who bowed (as in Islam) to Allah's will, by the rabbis and the doctors of law. for to them was entrusted to memorize Allah's book /
Not ONE ayah in the Quran states Muusa,as received Tawrat!
In Al Tawrat is the Hukm / Governance of Allah...
And how can they govern you? And At-Tawrat / The Law is near them, in it is hukum / government of Allah. Then after that they turn away and they are not with the believers.
Al Kitab is the Ummi Al Kitab /Mother of the Book that contains Al Tawrat....
It is He who has revealed Al-Kitab / The Book over you. In it are muhkamat / governing ayats / signs. They are the mother of Al-Kitab / The Book
In Al Kitab is Al Tawrat which has the Hukm of Allah and Mukhamat / Governing ayats
Thus...
And verily, it is in the Mother of the Book, in Our Presence, high (in dignity), full of wisdom.
The Bible states in the OT that Muusa,as was given Torah and in the NT the Bible states that Essa,as was given the Gospel
The Quran states that ALL HUMANKIND was given Al Kitab, Al Tawrat and Al Injeel.
Obviously, the Biblical references relating to the Torah and Bible have no relevance to the Quran and Al Kitab.
-
Salaam MTR
Your post is quite challenging however, when I go through the Quran... I can find clearly when each of these Scriptures were revealed and also, whether they were written or not...
Firstly, The Tawrat and the Injeel was not revealed during Ibrahim Prophethood and was revealed after him...
365
"O People of the Scripture! Why will ye argue about Abraham, when the Torah and the Gospel were not revealed till after him? Have ye then no sense?"
So if Al-Tawrat means Law here, does it mean the Ibrahim (Alayhis Salaam) did not receive the Law of Allah while he was a prophet too ?
After that we have the verse I quoted in my previous post
3223 As-Sajdah
"And certainly We gave the Book to Musa, so be not in doubt concerning the receiving of it, and We made it a guide for the children of Israel."
Its true that so far I have not found a verse where Allah is saying that he gave At-Tawrat to Musa, but in the above verse, we have Al-Kitab ... And from the global understanding of the Quran, everytime Bani Israil is linked with the At-Tawrat... And since Musa was sent to Bani Israil, we can deduce that here Al kitab is referring to At-Tawrat...
Now for the Al-Injeel, we have this verse
349
And He will teach him the Scripture and wisdom, and the Torah and the Gospel,
The above verse is talking about Isa alyhis salaam, so here God letting us know that he will teach him the previous books as well as the injeel. Here we see the use of Al-Kitaab again... So Musa got Al-Kitab, and Isa got Al-Kitaab ... Al-Kitaab means The Book... So both of them received The Book ... And in the same book, there is also what At-Tawrat contained... Its like when a new version is out, it is backward compatible and wipes out the previous one and become the new standard...
Now for the final Scripture we have this verse,
There are many verses saying that the Messenger received Al-Kitaab too.. Will just take one for reference
2129
"Our Lord! And raise up in their midst a messenger from among them who shall recite unto them Thy revelations, and shall instruct them in the Scripture and in wisdom and shall make them grow. Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Mighty, Wise."
This is the famous Dua of Ibrahim Alayhis Salaam... Something worth noting here is, how Ibrahim is asking Allah to give his people Al-Kitaab... How does he know about Al-Kitaab? Seems we can have another thread for this...
Lo! Allah hath bought from the believers their lives and their wealth because the Garden will be theirs they shall fight in the way of Allah and shall slay and be slain. It is a promise which is binding on Him in the Torah and the Gospel and the Qur'an. Who fulfilleth His covenant better than Allah? Rejoice then in your bargain that ye have made, for that is the supreme triumph.
This verse is talking about what Allah has promised to the Believer in At-Tawrat, Al-Injeel and Al-Quran... Study well this ayah, Do you think that Allah would have made different promises to the believer in these 3 scriptures? And also, I do not see the 'Book of Law' fit well here to replace Torah. In this ayah, all the 3 scriptures are mentioned altogether...
Now some proof from the Quran that these scriptures were in written/book form...
7157
"Those who follow the messenger, the Prophet who can neither read nor write, whom they will find described in the Torah and the Gospel (which are) with them. He will enjoin on them that which is right and forbid them that which is wrong. He will make lawful for them all good things and prohibit for them only the foul; and he will relieve them of their burden and the fetters that they used to wear. Then those who believe in him, and honour him, and help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him they are the successful."
"Those who follow the Apostle-Prophet, the Ummi, whom they find written down with them in the Taurat and the Injeel (who) enjoins them good and forbids them evil, and makes lawful to them the good things and makes unlawful to them impure things, and removes from them their burden and the shackles which were upon them; so (as for) those who believe in him and honor him and help him, and follow the light which has been sent down with him, these it is that are the successful."
I have included 2 translations because MAKTOOB is not well translated by most translators... MAKTOOB which comes out from the verb KATABA(to write) means WRITTEN and not described/mentioned etc... So this ayah alone is enough to make us know that the previous scriptures were in written form...
Hope to hear back...