hadith
-
The point Moslem is as a secondary source of what? If you mean of law it can't be. You may impose on yourself any hatdith you deem adequate, but you cannot impose it on any one else. You would be imposing something that the Qur'an doesn't impose. Don't you find that you would be imposing a lot? On whose authority?
That is, as I can see it, the whole point. As religious literrature, nobody is forbidding it and everybody is free to be inspired by as many hadith as one feels sincere about. The trouble comes when you attempt to deduce from them the laws that "God wanted to impose on humanity". What do you say yourself?
Peace brother,
I did talk in the first post about the hadiths that is aimed to detail the islamic laws , not to make it.
Nobody can ever argue with that, because simply u can't rely on uncertain speechs.
And what I meant in hadiths by secondary source is definitly not source of law but source of knowledge that can help us
understand the koran. I don't think that u would reject the idea that any authentic speech of the prophet would clarify the koran and the
laws -who better than the messenger can explain his message- and what I was telling is that searching for hadiths that seem to be
usefull, not contradicting the koran -voire making it more comprehensible- might not only be permitted, but also crucial so we can
understand the context in which the koran was revealed and what was every verse aimed for, and that is a very important point.Peace again
-
Peace brother,
I did talk in the first post about the hadiths that is aimed to detail the islamic laws , not to make it.
Nobody can ever argue with that, because simply u can't rely on uncertain speechs.
And what I meant in hadiths by secondary source is definitly not source of law but source of knowledge that can help us
understand the koran. I don't think that u would reject the idea that any authentic speech of the prophet would clarify the koran and the
laws -who better than the messenger can explain his message- and what I was telling is that searching for hadiths that seem to be
usefull, not contradicting the koran -voire making it more comprehensible- might not only be permitted, but also crucial so we can
understand the context in which the koran was revealed and what was every verse aimed for, and that is a very important point.Peace again
Peace
Well, do you think that 7000 hadiths considered as Sahih by Bukhari can explain the 6000 verses of the Quran? Not to forget that usually there are dozens of hadith talking about a single issue....
Or you think that part of the Quran is clear and dont need any explanation.... While the others need hadiths... Well if that was the case... Allah would have definitely give us a clue to refer to hadith books in the Quran... But we all know that its not this way and will never be...
But as long as you do not take these hadiths as law or divine inspiration, then you can take, add or remove to it... Its totally on your side... Do whatever you like with it but never say/think/believe its from God...
Regards
-
Peace
Peace brother,
The reader of the Quran should be well aware that God sanctions the Quran to be the sole source of religious law testing the authenticity of any hadith is not for the purpose of approving the hadith as a source of religious law.
Shall I seek other than God as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed?" 6114
These are God's revelations that We recite to you truthfully. In which Hadith other than God and His revelations do they believe?" 456
"Shall I seek other than God as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed?" 611
This scripture (Quran) has been revealed to you - you shall not harbor doubt about it in your heart - that you may warn with it, and to provide a reminder for the believers. You shall all follow what is revealed to you from your Lord; do not follow any idols besides Him. Rarely do you take heed." 72-3
if you still looking for hadith then here is one.I did talk in the first post about the hadiths that is aimed to detail the islamic laws , not to make it.
Nobody can ever argue with that, because simply u can't rely on uncertain speechs.
And what I meant in hadiths by secondary source is definitly not source of law but source of knowledge that can help us
understand the koran. I don't think that u would reject the idea that any authentic speech of the prophet would clarify the koran and the
laws -who better than the messenger can explain his message- and what I was telling is that searching for hadiths that seem to be
usefull, not contradicting the koran -voire making it more comprehensible- might not only be permitted, but also crucial so we can
understand the context in which the koran was revealed and what was every verse aimed for, and that is a very important point.Do not write down anything of me except the Quran. Whoever writes other than that should delete it" (Ahmed, Vol. 1, page 171.....also Sahih Moslim )
Concerning the hadith I am totally "d'accord" with u. The prophet didn't want the koran to be distorted by possible mixing with
written hadiths. U should note that he still might have wanted his words to be understood -to clarify his message-, not only by his
contemporaries but also by other generations through oral handings, and definitly not written ones so i wouldn't be mixed with the koran -like it happened to the bible-
otherwise he wouldn't have made any of his speechs.
But let's go back to nowadays .. the problem is already here. Although the hadiths was not written until the koran was gathered in one book,
the problem that has rised is not what the prophet feared -the mixing between hadiths and koran- but it's forging hadiths that have nothing to do
with the prophet. That is our problem.Even if you accept some hadith you won?t be able to please them they will still consider you a murtad. then why waste your energy.
At least u would have done what u can, if they don't accept it it's their problem and they will be judged for that.
But also if u don't do it urself, u might be responsible too, u should consider that ...
16125 Invite to the path of your Lord with wisdom and good advice, and argue with them in that which is better. Your Lord is fully aware of who is misguided from His path, and He is fully aware of the guided ones. -
Muslim peace
Do you see what happens here. Quran being a single source of knowledge , and yet you find multiple individual perceptions. But the light at end of tunnel is," if we stick to it , truth can/will be ultimately reached , because HE is the teacher"
Now, going out side, will be opening a big pandoras box, and truth may never be found and hence ultimately lost.
moreover, even if we have some authentic ones going along the spirit of Quran, that freezes God's final revelation (which is suppose to be working for every situation and for all times to come) back into Mohammad's time.
siki
Peace brother,
let me ask u some questions
Is taking some authentic ones going along the spirit of koran a sin ?
Will GOD stop his mercy on u if u say "mohamad might have said this speech" ?
Do u actually believe it's a shirk to recognize the wisdom of the messenger of GOD and to profit from it ?
Do u think that recognizing some authentic hadiths is not important to u, even if there is a 1% chance that by
doing that u might come to accomplish 1% of unity with others muslim which might be a cornerstone to accomplish
whole of it ??
If ur answers r "no", u will know then why i started this thread in the first place .....Peace again
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Peace to All
The problem with the hadiths is that we really cannot filter them... And as guys pointed out in above posts, whats the use of cross checking with the Quran... Because at the end, we are still following the Quran... So why not just take the Quran straight as it was meant since it was revealed to the messenger...
Regards
Peace brother,
What's the use ?!!!!
Listen I'm gonna argue about the use of it ...
U don't wanna follow it u'r free to do that, and I don't blame u, and I'm not gonna judge u ...
But please answer the questions in my previous post, and then regardless if it is usefull or not
tell me is it worth or not ??
is it worth to accomplish unity between submitters and why not all humans,
or u have come to hate all the others in a way that u might treat them of idolators
-lot of people here do that- and that unity means nothing to u ?Peace
-
Peace again,
Peace
Well, do you think that 7000 hadiths considered as Sahih by Bukhari can explain the 6000 verses of the Quran? Not to forget that usually there are dozens of hadith talking about a single issue....I said nothing about explaining 6000 verses of the koran ....
And it's natural to have many hadiths about the same issue, the prophet might have spoken about it many times...
If those hadiths seem to be logical, and authentic, u could take the richest one ....Or you think that part of the Quran is clear and dont need any explanation.... While the others need hadiths... Well if that was the case... Allah would have definitely give us a clue to refer to hadith books in the Quran... But we all know that its not this way and will never be...
I never said anything about any verse that need hadiths ... I'm saying that some hadiths might be authentic ...
The koran is detailed, but the laws r not ... so the laws might need some authentic hadiths to become more clear and detailled.But as long as you do not take these hadiths as law or divine inspiration, then you can take, add or remove to it... Its totally on your side... Do whatever you like with it but never say/think/believe its from God...
RegardsI don't think that there is one single muslim who thinks it's from GOD ...
Anyway thx for ur precious advice ...
Peace -
Peace Brother...
Concerning the hadith I am totally "d'accord" with u. The prophet didn't want the koran to be distorted by possible mixing with
written hadiths. U should note that he still might have wanted his words to be understood -to clarify his message-, not only by his
contemporaries but also by other generations through oral handings, and definitly not written ones so i wouldn't be mixed with the koran -like it happened to the bible-
otherwise he wouldn't have made any of his speechs.
But let's go back to nowadays .. the problem is already here. Although the hadiths was not written until the koran was gathered in one book,
the problem that has rised is not what the prophet feared -the mixing between hadiths and koran- but it's forging hadiths that have nothing to do
with the prophet. That is our problem.Firstly, you should ask yourself these questions... Did the messenger believed in Allah? Could he followed another way apart the way of the Quran? Could the messenger doubt the words of Allah? If you replied 'No' to all of these... then read this verse...
159
We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption).
Since the prophet could not go against the Quran and totally has firm belief in Allah's words... Then definitely he would know that since Allah is taking the status of Guardian of the Quran, therefore no one would be able to alter or modify it, even his own words... So if he deemed that his speeches were necessary, then he would have them written down by separate scribes... Do you think he would have care about it to get mixed up... since Allah is protecting the Quran... Infact it is a very easy thing to do, he just needed to get 2 groups of scribes... one group should have written only the Quran, and the other groups only his teachings/saying and voila... Job is done... No mixup... Would this be difficult? Most will reply NO... Then, since the prophet did not do it, it means that it was not meant to be that way... The only Guide for mankind should be Al-Quran...
0202
This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear God;
This is only one among the many verses in which ALLAH says that this book is the guidance for mankind.... Will you need another guide to explain a guide?
Let's assume i give you a new Operating System to use on your computer, but since its totally new, you will not be able to use it by yourself, therefore, I give you a clear guide/tutorial which explains all the nuts and bolts in details... And i tell you that this is your guide... Will you need another guide to guide you using the guide ... Or will you use the guide straight away...
The only option is if the guide i give you is in another language, therefore you need to go and learn the language first, then read to understand the guide... Or you can get a translator to read the guide for you and translate it word by word to you... We do not need a guide to guide to to follow another guide... Its totally against the essence of the word 'GUIDE'...
Hope i have been clear enough to transmit my views to my best...
Allah knows best...
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Peace again...
So your main concern is about the 'authentic' hadith of the prophet...
May I ask you, by which standard/filter you can know that a hadith is authentic or not... What proof you have that if came out from the mouth of the prophet...?? Just because it SEEMS good to our mind/belief/faith, so we take it as authentic? Does Allah not tell you not not accept anything before verification?
1736
And follow not (O man i.e., say not, or do not or witness not, etc.) that of which you have no knowledge (e.g. one's saying "I have seen," while in fact he has not seen, or "I have heard," while he has not heard). Verily! The hearing, and the sight, and the heart, of each of those you will be questioned (by Allah).
Allah is clear on this, if you cannot verify it, especially when it is assumed that the messenger said it or did it... Then you should not accept... And by no means you will be able to verify and prove these claims to be true.... Some may sound good to the mind/ears but we cannot say that its from the prophet for sure...
As for your idea about 'What if the prophet did/said it'...
Well, then ask yourself, what if the prophet did NOT say/do it... Which is worth? Attributing lies to Allah and his prophet or follow the prophet through his Authentic sayings in the Quran... If you want to please the majority... then, you should consider this verse
6116
Wert thou to follow the common run of those on earth, they will lead thee away from the way of God. They follow nothing but conjecture they do nothing but lie.
The prophet was given the responsibility to deliver the truth, he was in a community of idolators, and he was not afraid to call them idolators... So if someone is an idolator, we should tell him that he is an idolator so that he can become aware... Its not me who is calling them idolators, buts its Allah Himself... The message is hard and difficult to digest, but it will indeed make the one being accused of this to assess his position... And if he just let it go like this, then its not our duty to remind him because now its his own responsibilty...
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About the unity of muslims...
You should get out of your bubble brother.... the main cause of dissention among the muslims have always been hadiths... All these 4 madhabs, they differ regarding hadiths... Most sects have their hadiths to back up their way of doing/behaving/living... If you want to blame anyone for the sectarism in the muslim community after the prophet passed away, you need to blame the hadith and hadith followers themselves... People follow hearsay and conjecture, then start arguing after one another...
Ask yourself this question... very often it happens that you are facing something and you do not know what islam says on it... then what do you do? Do u look for the answer in Hadith or in Quran?? As for me, my family and most of my relatives and muslims here, the first thing we will do is to look for the issue in the ahadiths... What has happened is that, gradually hadith has become the primary source while the Quran is being secondary or not present at all... This is how the general muslim community is living... And we are still waiting for the Victory from Allah... There will not be Victory unless we return to the Quran....
Only the Quran will wipe all these sectarism and unite the muslims under the banner of true Al-Islam, as it was delivered by the Messenger (pbuh)...
-
Ask yourself this question... very often it happens that you are facing something and you do not know what islam says on it... then what do you do? Do u look for the answer in Hadith or in Quran?? As for me, my family and most of my relatives and muslims here, the first thing we will do is to look for the issue in the ahadiths... What has happened is that, gradually hadith has become the primary source while the Quran is being secondary or not present at all... This is how the general muslim community is living... And we are still waiting for the Victory from Allah... There will not be Victory unless we return to the Quran....
Only the Quran will wipe all these sectarism and unite the muslims under the banner of true Al-Islam, as it was delivered by the Messenger (pbuh)...
salam,
you are absolutely right my friend ....... INNA QAWMI TA5ATHA LQURANA MAHJOORA -
Peace Moslem
You made this statement....
I never said anything about any verse that need hadiths ... I'm saying that some hadiths might be authentic ...
The koran is detailed, but the laws r not ... so the laws might need some authentic hadiths to become more clear and detailled.and your statement is in direct contradiction in these verses..
262
Tilka ayatu alkitabi almubeeniThese are verses of the Book that makes (things) clear
Did Allah says that these are the verses of the Book which are 'PARTLY' clear?? When you are saying that part of the Quran is clear, and part is not... You are in direct disbelief of this verse... This is why the Quran should be thoroughly studied everyday... Study is not the same as reading....
Allah guides whom he wills....
-
Peace Brother...
Peace
Firstly, you should ask yourself these questions...
Did the messenger believe in Allah? yes he did
Could he followed another way apart the way of the Quran? No
Could the messenger doubt the words of Allah? No
If you replied 'No' to all of these... then read this verse...159
We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption).
Since the prophet could not go against the Quran and totally has firm belief in Allah's words... Then definitely he would know that since Allah is taking the status of Guardian of the Quran, therefore no one would be able to alter or modify it, even his own words... So if he deemed that his speeches were necessary, then he would have them written down by separate scribes... Do you think he would have care about it to get mixed up... since Allah is protecting the Quran... Infact it is a very easy thing to do, he just needed to get 2 groups of scribes... one group should have written only the Quran, and the other groups only his teachings/saying and voila... Job is done... No mixup... Would this be difficult? Most will reply NO... Then, since the prophet did not do it, it means that it was not meant to be that way... The only Guide for mankind should be Al-Quran...
First concerning the verse ...
GOD did say that he will guard it, but can u tell how.
Do u think that there were angels with arms standing at the top of very scripture so they would kill anybody
who approaches it. I mean how do u think GOD will guard the book ... ain't through drawing the right circumstances
so that the koran wouldn't be threatened like the bible was. The point is in this world GOD act through human.
In the early battles, were there angels with swords fighting with submitters... definitly not.
What happened is that angels strenghened submitters' faith and weakened the "kuffar"
If u have a child would u leave him out there alone saying that GOD will take care of him ...
U won't, not because GOD won't take care of him, but simply because he will do that through u.
One of the conditions of guarding the koran is that the prophet and submitters at that time were given victory so they won't
be weak like the case of Jesus and early christians. Another one is that the prophet would be himself aware, and after he died
GOD preserved the book through submitters themselves.0202
This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear God;
This is only one among the many verses in which ALLAH says that this book is the guidance for mankind.... Will you need another guide to explain a guide?Can u assure that every single man will understand any guide he finds in his hands.
Anyway needing it is not the reason from my thread, the reason is something else and I pointed to it before.Allah knows best...
HE know the best and we certainly don't.
-
About the unity of muslims...
You should get out of your bubble brother.... the main cause of dissention among the muslims have always been hadiths... All these 4 madhabs, they differ regarding hadiths... Most sects have their hadiths to back up their way of doing/behaving/living... If you want to blame anyone for the sectarism in the muslim community after the prophet passed away, you need to blame the hadith and hadith followers themselves... People follow hearsay and conjecture, then start arguing after one another...
The truth is hadith has been a tool that promoted sectarism ... but it's not the main reason
The main one is simply human nature, hatred, zeal for the power that made the muslims make wars among
themselves and after that divide into sects ... hadiths came long time after that to become a wicked tool to be used
in order that every sect shows he is right, especially that it's very easy to distort and to forge.Ask yourself this question... very often it happens that you are facing something and you do not know what islam says on it... then what do you do? Do u look for the answer in Hadith or in Quran?? As for me, my family and most of my relatives and muslims here, the first thing we will do is to look for the issue in the ahadiths... What has happened is that, gradually hadith has become the primary source while the Quran is being secondary or not present at all... This is how the general muslim community is living... And we are still waiting for the Victory from Allah... There will not be Victory unless we return to the Quran....
That's the problem, the koran is being often forgotten ... totally "d'accord"
Only the Quran will wipe all these sectarism and unite the muslims under the banner of true Al-Islam, as it was delivered by the Messenger (pbuh)...
The koran should be the judge ... but the truth is only people themselves r the ones who can wipe sectarism
cose if they don't seek unity themselves, they already believe in the Book but they will never wake up. -
Peace Moslem
You made this statement....
and your statement is in direct contradiction in these verses..Did Allah say that these are the verses of the Book which are 'PARTLY' clear?? When you are saying that part of the Quran is clear, and part is not... You are in direct disbelief of this verse... This is why the Quran should be thoroughly studied everyday... Study is not the same as reading....
Allah guides whom he wills....Peace,
I did say "u might need" ....
My point is -I'm sure that u will agree with me- it's not that bad to go back to some "logical" hadiths
is case u find it hard to make up ur mind concerning a matter.
But of course not immediatly, one should seek the Book first and IF -and I emphasize on the "if"-
he thinks that he needs to do more research he can search in hadiths (as long as he never say/think/believe its from God... )) -
Peace Brother,
First concerning the verse ...
GOD did say that he will guard it, but can u tell how.
Do u think that there were angels with arms standing at the top of very scripture so they would kill anybody
who approaches it. I mean how do u think GOD will guard the book ... ain't through drawing the right circumstances
so that the koran wouldn't be threatened like the bible was. The point is in this world GOD act through human.
In the early battles, were there angels with swords fighting with submitters... definitly not.
What happened is that angels strenghened submitters' faith and weakened the "kuffar"
If u have a child would u leave him out there alone saying that GOD will take care of him ...
U won't, not because GOD won't take care of him, but simply because he will do that through u.
One of the conditions of guarding the koran is that the prophet and submitters at that time were given victory so they won't
be weak like the case of Jesus and early christians. Another one is that the prophet would be himself aware, and after he died
GOD preserved the book through submitters themselves.Definite, God has his own mechanism He is USING to protect the Al-Quran ... This has not been done only through the strenghening of the muslim ummah as you mentioned, but also through immediate writing of the verses as they were revealed and their memorization... With so many copies and memorizers around... It will be a lost battle for anyone who try to forge the Quran.... You should also know that the Bible was not written at the time of Jesus... And was written only after his death by his followers.... The fact that Al-Quran was written immediately after revelation, was one of the main things which made the difference from the previous Scriptures.... As for the Victory of the Submitters, they were more due because they were following the Quran and submitted themselves totally to the Will of Allah... If we submitted ourselves the same way, we will get the same victory because Allah promised the Mu'mineen victory and this promise will remain valid till Allah decide otherwise...
As for the help of the angels in the battles... we definitely do not know how their support were... Maybe they could have come down armed and assisted the mu'mineen in the battle... we do not really know.. we just believe what Allah told us... We do not need these details... Whether they came in person, or provided other kind of support.. the fact is, they did 'support' the mu'mineen and thats all...
As for the child being left alone thinking God will feed and raise him... Well, that claim is very illogical, Allah has already inspired the Parents special feelings so that they would take good care of their children... except a few who have gone astray and do not fear God...
Can u assure that every single man will understand any guide he finds in his hands.
Anyway needing it is not the reason from my thread, the reason is something else and I pointed to it before.Yes.. I believe firmly that every single man will be able to understand the guide if he take the TIME to STUDY it and do not look for shortcuts to the Quran from other books... Well, Allah will also question you about your intellectual abilities, we are not born equal with same level of IQ... Allah is the best of Judges and will guide everyone accordingly.... However, you can also look for a teacher who will teach you the Quran and what it contains... Without adding or removing from it... I think there is no escape route for this issue...
The truth is hadith has been a tool that promoted sectarism ... but it's not the main reason
The main one is simply human nature, hatred, zeal for the power that made the muslims make wars among
themselves and after that divide into sects ... hadiths came long time after that to become a wicked tool to be used
in order that every sect shows he is right, especially that it's very easy to distort and to forge.Since you already agree with the harm that Hadith have been doing to the Ummah... then why defend it? Its is still the same wicked tool and its being aggressively used by Ulemas to keep their grasp on the masses.... Can these sects do the same with the Quran? Definitely, their claim will collapse one after the other against Al-Quran... Lies cannot stand against Al-Quran... You agree that its easy to distort and forge... So why trying to defend it...
You should ask yourself.. For a minute, consider yourself a kaafir and try to think how you can harm Islam... Try to find strategies... Definitely, you can include all other strategies except forging Al-Quran... right? Because definitely, forging Al-Quran will be impossible and will expose the lies almost immediately... So tell me, who guarantees the Quran for you? and who guarantees the Hadiths?? Anyone who wants to hard Islam can do it through hadith and their behaviour...
That's the problem, the koran is being often forgotten ... totally "d'accord"
I am glad that you are on the same wavelength here... Now ask yourself the next question? Why has the Quran been forgotten? When you ask someone to read the Quran... He will usually tell you that he do not has wudhu, does not know tajweed or things like this... Who imposed these limits? Who made people stay away from the Quran and keep the Quran as a holy book on the shelf? ...
The koran should be the judge ... but the truth is only people themselves r the ones who can wipe sectarism
cose if they don't seek unity themselves, they already believe in the Book but they will never wake up.Allah's commands are clear
And hold fast, all together, by the rope which God (stretches out for you), and be not divided among yourselves; and remember with gratitude God's favour on you; for ye were enemies and He joined your hearts in love, so that by His Grace, ye became brethren; and ye were on the brink of the pit of Fire, and He saved you from it. Thus doth God make His Signs clear to you That ye may be guided.
However, to hope tight to the rope of Allah, you have to hold tight to the Book of Allah and follow its rules.... Among the many rules are not to use conjecture, stay away from the doubtful, no laws beside the Law of Allah as in the Quran etc...
Accepting part of the Book and rejecting part of it... Let's see what Allah says
285
Then is it only a part of the Book that ye believe in, and do ye reject the rest? but what is the reward for those among you who behave like this but disgrace in this life?This verse is very important... We cannot accept part of the book and reject part of it.. Else Allah is promising us with disgrace in this life.... So can we hold tight with the rope of Allah while accepting only part of the book and reject part of it?
Peace,
I did say "u might need" ....
My point is -I'm sure that u will agree with me- it's not that bad to go back to some "logical" hadiths
is case u find it hard to make up ur mind concerning a matter.
But of course not immediatly, one should seek the Book first and IF -and I emphasize on the "if"-
he thinks that he needs to do more research he can search in hadiths (as long as he never say/think/believe its from God... )All praise belong to God... Since I reverted to true Islam, some months ago... I am finding all my answers in the Quran itself... Believe me brother... Amazing and wonderful journey... I am struggling with my family/relatives day and night and Alhamdoulillah it is just making me stronger and firmer in my belief in Al-Quran... Believe me, armed with Al-Quran... No one can stand against you... Because a single point from the Quran is stronger than most of their points... So far, all my discussions with friends/family/relatives has been victory for me if I may Allow myself to say... The most logical facts and answers are in the Quran.... You want to follow the words of the Prophet, follow the Quran because in the Quran, Allah has recorded our Prophet's speeched verbatim... as it came out from his mouth... And these speeches do not need to be verified, they have no sanad.... They have been recorded by the ALmighty Himself...
Hope I have transmitted as clearly as possible..
Allah knows best...
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Peace WayFinder,
Welcome to the forum welcome
I have become a big fan of yours. ) God has given you good insight and understanding.
Keep up the good work and may God bless you and reward you for your efforts.
May God guide us all to the truth and the straight path.
-
Peace brother,
Peace Brother,
Allah has already inspired the Parents special feelings so that they would take good care of their children...In the same way HE inspired his messenger how to take care of his message.
Since you already agree with the harm that Hadith have been doing to the Ummah... then why defend it? Its is still the same wicked tool and its being aggressively used by Ulemas to keep their grasp on the masses.... Can these sects do the same with the Quran? Definitely, their claim will collapse one after the other against Al-Quran... Lies cannot stand against Al-Quran... You agree that its easy to distort and forge... So why trying to defend it... wha
I'm not defending it ... u haven't been following me.
The only difference between u and me is that I find it my responsibility to try to fix as much as I can ...
And I believe this is a duty for every koran aloner ... It's good to argue, and it's not bad to compromise (and please do not
compare our case to the prophet's, he was dealing with stone worshippers and we r dealing with submitters who believe in the one GOD),
and I'm seeking what could be the best behavior with others.I am glad that you are on the same wavelength here... Now ask yourself the next question? Why has the Quran been forgotten? When you ask someone to read the Quran... He will usually tell you that he do not has wudhu, does not know tajweed or things like this... Who imposed these limits? Who made people stay away from the Quran and keep the Quran as a holy book on the shelf? ...
In fact maybe not lot of people read the koran ... Myself I used to read it but I haven't lately ...
But I believe it's only lazyness, I mean I don't know where u live, but I have lived in the middle east for 20
years and I was born there, and I know all the habits of muslims (sunni and shia), and i don't think that
anybody try to find excuses for not reading the koran ... it's only lazyness ... and it's not a big deal ..
and the problem is not in reading the koran or not (although it is very important in order to understand it),
the problem is not following it.Accepting part of the Book and rejecting part of it...
So can we hold tight with the rope of Allah while accepting only part of the book and reject part of it?Nobody rejects any part of the Book, otherwise he won't be a muslim.
The truth is that some people simply ignore the Book, i mean they don't know what's in it
and they blindly follow what others (like imams) tell them about it.All praise belong to God... Since I reverted to true Islam, some months ago... I am finding all my answers in the Quran itself... Believe me brother... Amazing and wonderful journey... I am struggling with my family/relatives day and night and Alhamdoulillah it is just making me stronger and firmer in my belief in Al-Quran... Believe me, armed with Al-Quran... No one can stand against you... Because a single point from the Quran is stronger than most of their points... So far, all my discussions with friends/family/relatives has been victory for me if I may Allow myself to say... The most logical facts and answers are in the Quran.... You want to follow the words of the Prophet, follow the Quran because in the Quran, Allah has recorded our Prophet's speeched verbatim... as it came out from his mouth... And these speeches do not need to be verified, they have no sanad.... They have been recorded by the ALmighty Himself...
Hope I have transmitted as clearly as possible..
Allah knows best...
Of course ur discussions will be victorious, but I think that u'r wise enough not to feel victorious ...
U should note that -and urself u always say it- GOD know best, and we might know nothing, so we should always
be openminded on everything, cose even if we live hundreds of years and we spend it searching for the truth,
the truth will always be fuzzy, except for one truth which is .... GOD.
I always feel happy when I hear somebody finding answers, cose i lived exactly the same experience, and i know
how it feels to see things clearer. So good luck, and may GOD guide us all to the straight path. -
Peace WayFinder,
Welcome to the forum welcome
I have become a big fan of yours. ) God has given you good insight and understanding.
Keep up the good work and may God bless you and reward you for your efforts.
May God guide us all to the truth and the straight path.
Peace brother
Thank you very much for your support.... Infact going through the Quran is a very enlightening experience... In the past, I was using all other books except the Quran... they were supposed to be shortcuts to the Quran but infact, they were just opinion of the authors according to their understanding and doctrine.... However, I thank Allah for the change in my views and now I feel really happy to read and study the Quran... Its a wonderful experience and I hope many muslims are enjoying the same as many people are returning back to the source which is Al-Quran...
God bless...
-
Peace Brother....
In the same way HE inspired his messenger how to take care of his message.
Can you be more clear on this brother? What do you mean by taking care of his message? I already outlined in my previous post one of the main tool that the Messenger used to secure the message is to get them written down... Do you imply that the prophet got some extra commands from Allah which is not in the Quran and is found in other books? Please clarify on this...
I'm not defending it ... u haven't been following me.
The only difference between u and me is that I find it my responsibility to try to fix as much as I can ...
And I believe this is a duty for every koran aloner ... It's good to argue, and it's not bad to compromise (and please do not
compare our case to the prophet's, he was dealing with stone worshippers and we r dealing with submitters who believe in the one GOD),
and I'm seeking what could be the best behavior with others.As for my responsibility... Its like this...
242
And cover not Truth with falsehood, nor conceal the Truth when ye know (what it is).The truth is already established for me and I have no doubt on it... So my duty towards all people is in the above verse... I cannot try to FIX falsehood... Falsehood should be wiped off and replaced with truth...There is no negotiation on the truth...
2174 Those who conceal Allah's revelations in the Book, and purchase for them a miserable profit,- they swallow into themselves naught but Fire; Allah will not address them on the Day of Resurrection. Nor purify them Grievous will be their penalty.
I am not after a miserable profit Alhamdoulillah...
About not comparing to the prophet...
How can we not take the prophet example into consideration when we are commanded to take him as the best example
3321 Ye have indeed in the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern (of conduct) for any one whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day, and who engages much in the Praise of Allah.
Be it stone worshipper, peer worshipper, animal worshipper or whatever else... Shirk is shirk... Taking other laws and claiming it is from Allah is BIG shirk... example of this is the stoning of adulterers... Also, who said that the Meccans were worshipping idols... According to historians, they were worshipping Allah but these idols represented Allah's son and daughters like Manat,Lat and Uzza.... So they were thinking that passing through them, their prayers will reach Allah, these idols were mere intermediaries... they knew that the only one God was Allah but were worshipping others together with Him...
Not all idolators were worshipping stones and statues... Take the Christians for example, they were worshipping Jesus instead of Allah... They do not worship the statue of Jesus, but they worship Jesus himself who they claim is alive in Heaven and is the God....
The messenger's message were to all these people, the pure stone/sun/fire worshipper as well as those who worship Allah as well as others beside him...
To sum this up... An idolator is an idolator.. There is no level 1 idolator or level 2 idolator... No unnecessary argument on this... Allah's law is clear... No shirk with him...
In fact maybe not lot of people read the koran ... Myself I used to read it but I haven't lately ...
But I believe it's only lazyness, I mean I don't know where u live, but I have lived in the middle east for 20
years and I was born there, and I know all the habits of muslims (sunni and shia), and i don't think that
anybody try to find excuses for not reading the koran ... it's only lazyness ... and it's not a big deal ..
and the problem is not in reading the koran or not (although it is very important in order to understand it),
the problem is not following it.I agree its PARTLY laziness, but not only due to it... There are other factors also... Among the main ones, there are already too many textbooks which are intended to explain the Quran in your own language... SO people do no want to go through the process of learning Arabic to read and study the Quran... There are too many shortcuts to the Quran... THe imams,mullahs,muftis,Ulemas etc are the main ones... However most of these people have not studied the Quran themselves and have fallen into the trap of following hadiths and false interpretations... So at the end, you eventually end up with a Islam that has nothing to do with Al-Quran... Rules not taken from it etc... Check these verse regarding scholars and learnt men...
0934
O you who believe, many religious leaders and preachers take the people's money illicitly, and repel from the path of GOD. Those who hoard the gold and silver, and do not spend them in the cause of GOD, promise them a painful retribution.Ask yourself... What the majority of muslims are doing today? Is not is the same as the verse above.... People following their leaders rather than the Guide sent by Allah...
Here also in my country, we have shias and everything.. you will find all the muslim sects in most countries.. even in UK or america... So this is not an issue... I have seen grave worshippers, peer worshippers and so on... So I know what am talking about...
Nobody rejects any part of the Book, otherwise he won't be a muslim.
The truth is that some people simply ignore the Book, i mean they don't know what's in it
and they blindly follow what others (like imams) tell them about it.I totally agree with you... they cannot be called a muslim, but how many like this are claiming to be muslims?? Do you saying that when they will be judged by Allah, they will get out easily by saying that they do not know what is in the Quran?? Should we be blind followers of religious leaders? Most of these religious leaders are abusing the trust of the people and using them for their own benefit... They can only remain in their position by upholding the use of Hadith... Because preaching Quran alone will not allow them to do what they are currently doing...
Of course ur discussions will be victorious, but I think that u'r wise enough not to feel victorious ...
U should note that -and urself u always say it- GOD know best, and we might know nothing, so we should always
be openminded on everything, cose even if we live hundreds of years and we spend it searching for the truth,
the truth will always be fuzzy, except for one truth which is .... GOD.
I always feel happy when I hear somebody finding answers, cose i lived exactly the same experience, and i know
how it feels to see things clearer. So good luck, and may GOD guide us all to the straight path.Yes you are right... I am not claiming that I am a victor everywhere, but just mentioned it here to make you aware of my feeling and the power of Allah's words.... I have been able to follow only the Quran due to my open mindedness.. you have no idea of the past sects i belonged to... sunnis,tawheedi,salafis...and finally back to the source...
-
Peace Brother....
Can you be more clear on this brother? What do you mean by taking care of his message? I already outlined in my previous post one of the main tool that the Messenger used to secure the message is to get them written down... Do you imply that the prophet got some extra commands from Allah which is not in the Quran and is found in other books? Please clarify on this...
There r no commands in this matter ... and it's not mentioned in any book ...
it's simply inspiration that he would take care of his message just like a mother takes care of her son ...
it's a natural behavior ... and there r no specific matters, it's the general behavior of the prophet that
allows me to say that he was taking care of his message ... an example is the previous hadith that ironically
another brother used to prove that hadiths shouldn't be written which is
Do not write down anything of me except the Quran. Whoever writes other than that should delete it" (Ahmed, Vol. 1, page 171.....also Sahih Moslim )
This hadith which I consider wise and might be authentic could be a proof of the caring that the prophet showed
for his message.As for my responsibility... Its like this...
242
And cover not Truth with falsehood, nor conceal the Truth when ye know (what it is).
The truth is already established for me and I have no doubt on it... So my duty towards all people is in the above verse... I cannot try to FIX falsehood... Falsehood should be wiped off and replaced with truth...There is no negotiation on the truth...
2174 Those who conceal Allah's revelations in the Book, and purchase for them a miserable profit,- they swallow into themselves naught but Fire; Allah will not address them on the Day of Resurrection. Nor purify them Grievous will be their penalty.
I am not after a miserable profit Alhamdoulillah...well I am not covering the truth ... and i'm not trying to fix falsehood, I'm simply trying to unite brother, and
I assure to u that I'm doing it by the good ways not by disobeying GOD, cose falsehood to u might not be the same for me.
And afterall if i'm after miserable profit I will be judged for that, and if I'm not, those who argue with me so that my efforts
would be in vain they will be judged for that too.
I'm glad that u think truth is established to u, but with all my due respect the one who claims to know the truth is the biggest
ignorant ever, and the one who doesn't have doubts doesn't know how to search the truth.About not comparing to the prophet...
How can we not take the prophet example into consideration when we are commanded to take him as the best example
3321 Ye have indeed in the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern (of conduct) for any one whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day, and who engages much in the Praise of Allah.I never said do not conduct like the prophet, I said that our circumstances r not the same,u can't compare the situations we r in to his,
again we r dealing with submitters and he was dealing with "kuffar"Be it stone worshipper, peer worshipper, animal worshipper or whatever else... Shirk is shirk... Taking other laws and claiming it is from Allah is BIG shirk... example of this is the stoning of adulterers... Also, who said that the Meccans were worshipping idols... According to historians, they were worshipping Allah but these idols represented Allah's son and daughters like Manat,Lat and Uzza.... So they were thinking that passing through them, their prayers will reach Allah, these idols were mere intermediaries... they knew that the only one God was Allah but were worshipping others together with Him...
Not all idolators were worshipping stones and statues... Take the Christians for example, they were worshipping Jesus instead of Allah... They do not worship the statue of Jesus, but they worship Jesus himself who they claim is alive in Heaven and is the God....
The messenger's message were to all these people, the pure stone/sun/fire worshipper as well as those who worship Allah as well as others beside him...
To sum this up... An idolator is an idolator.. There is no level 1 idolator or level 2 idolator... No unnecessary argument on this... Allah's law is clear... No shirk with him...All muslims worship GOD brother, they might be astrayed in some matters like dividing into sects and following laws
that does not exist in the koran, but they still believe in the one GOD.... they don't worship stone nor peer nor animal nor Jesus
nor Mohammad nor Ali, they r worshipping GOD.I totally agree with you... they cannot be called a muslim, but how many like this are claiming to be muslims??
No body is claiming to be muslims because they all r muslims ... A muslim is a man who believes in GOD and in the message of
Mohammad (the koran), and as they all do that and do not reject any part of the Book then they r muslims.I c we r not going anywhere in this, so this is gonna be my last reply to u with all my due respect ...