Oral Debate between Ayman and Edip...
-
my dear belal, they were never part of the quran to say they were deleted..........you know what is the greatest teacher in the world after quran? LIFE experience,so please i dont want to waste my time writing or printing, when you read my posts, read it and understand the meaning of it with out me having to write a whole essay. a few words, simple and clear, my dear you can beleive whatever you want im not here to convince anyone of anything, i am simply stating what i beleive and what i have learned from god and his book in the past 5 years, i have never understood the quran before and all of sudden i started understanding the meaning without any help from translations and dictionaries i simply trusted in god, and that my dear friend is how you undertsand quran, you must have faith, true faith, do you know what true faith is, ill give you an example.......
you are standing on the road, a car is coming at you at 80 miles an hour, you are standing in the face of that car, but your body doesnt even twitch, you know from your faith, god will stop the car dead in its place before it touches you,but that car is coming at a speed and getting closer and closer, but still your body does not move, the blood is rushing inside of you but your faith will keep you standing. THAT my friend is real faith, now i know, that that wont happen because people dont have enough faith but that is the highest level of faith.
now when you read that example did you laugh inside while you are reading it and said thats crazy nobody would do that, of course the car will run me over.........only god and you knows what you thought of that example. BUT for everyone that read it and DOES think that, you have made it clear to yourselves not to me not to god but to yourselves that you did NOT read into the meaning of that example. therefore you do not know what true faith is, not that you dont want it, but you simple dont know what it is.
again i say it, the quran is a not a book to be easily abused, in saying that,AND AS ALLAH MY WITNESS the 2 verses are NOT from the quran they are not holy verses, you can bring me all the ayat you want as you did before unless you understand the meaning in depth of those ayat do not try to use words on me as if you know what you are talking about. i told you before and i will say it again, the quran is structured in perfection every word in its every place is structured to perfection and in order to understand quran you must go into depth of undertanding it, im not saying its hard, but as long as you are depending on dictionaries and translations you will never undertand quran, and most likely you probably understood nothing from what i have just said, you will reply very quickly not thinking for a moment of the meaning , im not just typing i am a human behind this screen with feelings of sadness for those who dont understand and in hopes that even one word i say might make sense to them, then i know i have done well, but i will never know.Peace Anna,
Unless you bring a well-established verse from Quran that give you the right to delete verses, then you are in a big big problem. What you said above has nothing to do with deleting verses.
May God Open your Eyes to the Truth.Peace Belal,
I agree with you completely on this issue. Deleting verses from al-quran is rejecting God's words and is tantamount to kufr/rejection/covering the truth. It is also kufr/rejection/covering the truth of the following verse in addition to 159
4142 No falsehood could enter it, presently or afterwards; a revelation from a Most Wise, Praiseworthy.
Those who reject 9128-129 also automatically reject 159 and 4142. God describes the fate of quran rejecters explicitly in al-quran. This fits in neatly with count of 19 being a trial for REJECTERS.
Peace truthseeker
I agree with every thing you wrote above; I hope anna can understand your analysis.
But I still disagree with you on the Moon issue yes
May God lead all of us the truth.
Peace -
-
my dear belal, they were never part of the quran to say they were deleted..........you know what is the greatest teacher in the world after quran? LIFE experience,so please i dont want to waste my time writing or printing, when you read my posts, read it and understand the meaning of it with out me having to write a whole essay. a few words, simple and clear, my dear you can beleive whatever you want im not here to convince anyone of anything, i am simply stating what i beleive and what i have learned from god and his book in the past 5 years, i have never understood the quran before and all of sudden i started understanding the meaning without any help from translations and dictionaries i simply trusted in god, and that my dear friend is how you undertsand quran, you must have faith, true faith, do you know what true faith is, ill give you an example.......
you are standing on the road, a car is coming at you at 80 miles an hour, you are standing in the face of that car, but your body doesnt even twitch, you know from your faith, god will stop the car dead in its place before it touches you,but that car is coming at a speed and getting closer and closer, but still your body does not move, the blood is rushing inside of you but your faith will keep you standing. THAT my friend is real faith, now i know, that that wont happen because people dont have enough faith but that is the highest level of faith.
now when you read that example did you laugh inside while you are reading it and said thats crazy nobody would do that, of course the car will run me over.........only god and you knows what you thought of that example. BUT for everyone that read it and DOES think that, you have made it clear to yourselves not to me not to god but to yourselves that you did NOT read into the meaning of that example. therefore you do not know what true faith is, not that you dont want it, but you simple dont know what it is.
again i say it, the quran is a not a book to be easily abused, in saying that,AND AS ALLAH MY WITNESS the 2 verses are NOT from the quran they are not holy verses, you can bring me all the ayat you want as you did before unless you understand the meaning in depth of those ayat do not try to use words on me as if you know what you are talking about. i told you before and i will say it again, the quran is structured in perfection every word in its every place is structured to perfection and in order to understand quran you must go into depth of undertanding it, im not saying its hard, but as long as you are depending on dictionaries and translations you will never undertand quran, and most likely you probably understood nothing from what i have just said, you will reply very quickly not thinking for a moment of the meaning , im not just typing i am a human behind this screen with feelings of sadness for those who dont understand and in hopes that even one word i say might make sense to them, then i know i have done well, but i will never know.Salam,
Anna, I agree with Belalhammad. What you said above has absolutely nothing to do with deleting verses. And there is absolutely NO excuse for deleting from Allah's words.
See http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=16727.0
Salam,
Arnab -
Salam Anna,,
my dear belal, they were never part of the quran to say they were deleted..........you know what is the greatest teacher in the world after quran? LIFE experience,so please i dont want to waste my time writing or printing, when you read my posts, read it and understand the meaning of it with out me having to write a whole essay. a few words, simple and clear, my dear you can beleive whatever you want im not here to convince anyone of anything, i am simply stating what i beleive and what i have learned from god and his book in the past 5 years, i have never understood the quran before and all of sudden i started understanding the meaning without any help from translations and dictionaries i simply trusted in god, and that my dear friend is how you undertsand quran, you must have faith, true faith, do you know what true faith is, ill give you an example.......
you are standing on the road, a car is coming at you at 80 miles an hour, you are standing in the face of that car, but your body doesnt even twitch, you know from your faith, god will stop the car dead in its place before it touches you,but that car is coming at a speed and getting closer and closer, but still your body does not move, the blood is rushing inside of you but your faith will keep you standing. THAT my friend is real faith, now i know, that that wont happen because people dont have enough faith but that is the highest level of faith.
now when you read that example did you laugh inside while you are reading it and said thats crazy nobody would do that, of course the car will run me over.........only god and you knows what you thought of that example. BUT for everyone that read it and DOES think that, you have made it clear to yourselves not to me not to god but to yourselves that you did NOT read into the meaning of that example. therefore you do not know what true faith is, not that you dont want it, but you simple dont know what it is.
again i say it, the quran is a not a book to be easily abused, in saying that,AND AS ALLAH MY WITNESS the 2 verses are NOT from the quran they are not holy verses, you can bring me all the ayat you want as you did before unless you understand the meaning in depth of those ayat do not try to use words on me as if you know what you are talking about. i told you before and i will say it again, the quran is structured in perfection every word in its every place is structured to perfection and in order to understand quran you must go into depth of undertanding it, im not saying its hard, but as long as you are depending on dictionaries and translations you will never undertand quran, and most likely you probably understood nothing from what i have just said, you will reply very quickly not thinking for a moment of the meaning , im not just typing i am a human behind this screen with feelings of sadness for those who dont understand and in hopes that even one word i say might make sense to them, then i know i have done well, but i will never know.When you first came to Free-minds.org, we, or maybe just me, had no idea, and you certainly gave no clue, that you were a hard core 19er!
Peace!
-
Salam Anna,,
When you first came to Free-minds.org, we, or maybe just me, had no idea, and you certainly gave no clue, that you were a hard core 19er!
Peace!
http//www.nmsr.org/code19.htm !
-
Salam Anna,,
When you first came to Free-minds.org, we, or maybe just me, had no idea, and you certainly gave no clue, that you were a hard core 19er!
Peace!
salam,
i am what i say i am. I AM A TRUE QURAN ALONE in the whole sense of the meaning, yes i did come to the messege through submission and yes i beleive in the 19, i have always been a muslima sunna and the quran has always been there but why did i never understand it, becuase i never had the tools to understand it, my intentions were good but never the less i had the wrong tools, after reading into the site of submission. i understood what the tool is and i applied i, sure enough with time it worked i started understanding quran.as for # 19 its merely a tool for those of today who are living in the technological world who may need proof to beleive in the quran as gods word. now it might not apply to everyone god gives the gift of faith and knowledge to who ever he wishes, and in many ways but we cant deny that what rashad khalifa discovered was of signifance otherwise he would not have been the talk of the town or had ppl writing about his discovery.and i through my learning of the quran depending on god alone to teach me i have found with time that yes #19 is a miracle and yes the verses are not quran material. even if #19 did not show that these are not part of the quran with the understanding of the quran and how it works, with time one will know, hte #19 just brought it to our attention faster.
i am not better then anyone here, i am merely a human being a nothing in this world and i like many here did not know arabic, yes i came from an arabic background but i taught myself beginning with the alphabet. so if i can do it anyone can -
Peace all,
and most likely you probably understood nothing from what i have just said, you will reply very quickly not thinking for a moment of the meaning ...........................point made
I hope that is not your way in dealing with people in General; otherwise, you will not have to many friends. People do not like to be accused based on probability (guessing)
as for 9129 lets finish up with 128 first then we will get to this, but i will say that its not confirmed and repeated in many verses as a matter a fact i beleive, if my memory services me right, there is only one verse in the quran that has 7asbiyallah wna3ima lwakil. but we will get to that later.
anna, I think we done with 9-128; now, can you tell me what is wrong with
(
But if they turn away, Say "Allah sufficeth me There is not god but He On Him is my trust - He the Lord of the Throne (of Glory) Supreme! (129)
Salam
-
Peace all,
I hope that is not your way in dealing with people in General; otherwise, you will not have to many friends. People do not like to be accused based on probability (guessing)
anna, I think we done with 9-128; now, can you tell me what is wrong with
(
But if they turn away, Say "Allah sufficeth me There is not god but He On Him is my trust - He the Lord of the Throne (of Glory) Supreme! (129)
Salam
im not guessing, quran teachs the attitudes of people yours included, i knew this is the way you will react because god teachs us everything in the quran, the quran is rules and regulations ,its the past present and future, it teachs us manners and attitudes, warns us of others and teachs us how to deal with it., and wallahi im not trying to put anyone down or hurt anyone, thats against my thought because god does not accept it.all im trying to say that quran is not all technical, it is more spiritual then anything else.no matter what topic one talks about when we talk about quran one must go back to spirtuallity. the quran is easily understood and if you understand the spirtual part of the quran , you would understand the meaning of 9128. i really dont know how else to say it. but we live in a spirtual world those who beleive, everyone else lives in a materialist and technical world.
as for friends..........well lets just say im very highly respected and ppl come to me with there problems and i have ppl online who talk to me just for help, and they respect me a great deal............ when it comes to religion if the whole world hates me thats ok i wont be upset because i know god is with me. but i personnally will never hate anyone.... hate is for the devil......... im sorry but i tend to think with my heart alot,someone told me i can never win a debate by thinking with my heart. well then im happy to lose, but in gods eye im always a winner wil7amdillah -
http//www.nmsr.org/code19.htm !
salam,
you know one thing i have noticed wether one believes in 19 or not, it sure has people curious to know more about the quran itself............... is that not a good thing. if they beleive in it thats great if not then they have come across the quran and who knows maybe thats the way god will guide them...... in either case something positive will come out of it. -
Peace Anna,
you know one thing i have noticed wether one believes in 19 or not, it sure has people curious to know more about the quran itself............... is that not a good thing. if they beleive in it thats great if not then they have come across the quran and who knows maybe thats the way god will guide them...... in either case something positive will come out of it.
I am sure that many people were also attracted to the great reading by Hadiths and Sira that tell about the miracles supposedly performed by the prophet and some are even filled with some heart warming stories, like the one about the cat from which Abu Hurayra got his nick name. This doesn't make Hadiths true nor does it make those who believe in such things believers in the message of the great reading. Many Hadith collectors, Sunni scholars, 19ers and other such propagators of falsehood have good intentions. But even the best intentions are not substitutes for the truth.
Peace,
Ayman
-
Peace Anna,
I am sure that many people were also attracted to the great reading by Hadiths and Sira that tell about the miracles supposedly performed by the prophet and some are even filled with some heart warming stories, like the one about the cat from which Abu Hurayra got his nick name. This doesn't make Hadiths true nor does it make those who believe in such things believers in the message of the great reading. Many Hadith collectors, Sunni scholars, 19ers and other such propagators of falsehood have good intentions. But even the best intentions are not substitutes for the truth.
Peace,
Ayman
what is your point, you might consider yourself a god and make up those silly verses, but now you can judge people on how they are guided too.i feel yo u have hatered inside of you, and someone who supposdely reads the GREAT reading as you call. i dont know why, doesnt seem to apply that attitude of a good.......whatever it is you call yourself, what is your sect name again????????
-
im not guessing, quran teachs the attitudes of people yours included, i knew this is the way you will react because god teachs us everything in the quran, the quran is rules and regulations ,its the past present and future, it teachs us manners and attitudes, warns us of others and teachs us how to deal with it., and wallahi im not trying to put anyone down or hurt anyone, thats against my thought because god does not accept it.all im trying to say that quran is not all technical, it is more spiritual then anything else.no matter what topic one talks about when we talk about quran one must go back to spirtuallity. the quran is easily understood and if you understand the spirtual part of the quran , you would understand the meaning of 9128. i really dont know how else to say it. but we live in a spirtual world those who beleive, everyone else lives in a materialist and technical world.
as for friends..........well lets just say im very highly respected and ppl come to me with there problems and i have ppl online who talk to me just for help, and they respect me a great deal............ when it comes to religion if the whole world hates me thats ok i wont be upset because i know god is with me. but i personnally will never hate anyone.... hate is for the devil......... im sorry but i tend to think with my heart alot,someone told me i can never win a debate by thinking with my heart. well then im happy to lose, but in gods eye im always a winner wil7amdillahAnna, you did not answer my question; let me post again
anna, I think we done with 9-128; now, can you tell me what is wrong with
(
But if they turn away, Say "Allah sufficeth me There is not god but He On Him is my trust - He the Lord of the Throne (of Glory) Supreme! (129)
-
Anna, you did not answer my question; let me post again
anna, I think we done with 9-128; now, can you tell me what is wrong with
(
But if they turn away, Say "Allah sufficeth me There is not god but He On Him is my trust - He the Lord of the Throne (of Glory) Supreme! (129)
thats makes the 2 of us, as you never answered mine.........
-
thats makes the 2 of us, as you never answered mine.........
nope
yes
-\Okay; but do not ignore the Fact that God used the word 7aleem, which is one of his names, to discribe Abrahem.
Now, I will give you some more examples
Example one shows how people use one of God's name (God's Title) to discribe Human
(٩
Said the Chiefs of the people of Pharaoh "This is indeed a sorcerer well-versed. (7-109)
(٢
And bring up to thee all (our) sorcerers well-versed." (7-112)Example two shows how God used his name (God's Title) to discribe people
(٦
So he began (the search) with their baggage, before (he came to) the baggage of his brother at length He brought it out of his brother's baggage. Thus did We plan for Joseph. He could not take his brother by the law of the king except that Allah willed it (so). We raise to degrees (of wisdom) whom We please but over all endued with knowledge is One more knowledgable. (12-76)
Example Three shows Angels useing God's Name (God's Title) to discribe a Human (Issac)
(٣
They said "Fear not! We give thee glad tidings of a son endowed with wisdom." (15-53)
(٨
(When they did not eat), He conceived a fear of them. They said "Fear not" and they gave him glad tidings of a son endowed with knowledge. (51-2
Example four shows a Messanger of God using two names of God (God's Titles) to discribe himself
(٥
(Joseph) said "Set me over the storehouses of the land I ?m a keeper and Knowledgeable" (12-55)
Thus, 9-128 is not different than any of the above example.
Peace
-
Peace Anna,
I am sure that many people were also attracted to the great reading by Hadiths and Sira that tell about the miracles supposedly performed by the prophet and some are even filled with some heart warming stories, like the one about the cat from which Abu Hurayra got his nick name. This doesn't make Hadiths true nor does it make those who believe in such things believers in the message of the great reading. Many Hadith collectors, Sunni scholars, 19ers and other such propagators of falsehood have good intentions. But even the best intentions are not substitutes for the truth.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace
Indeed the truth is the best. But what is the truth? Even those who reject the 19 pattern as a Divine act of God may have good intentions but may be equally wrong.
I cannot understand the pattern to be a coincidence. I see stronger evidence towards the pattern. Thus i accept it as an act of God. What other options do you suggest??
-
Dear Anna
Those people who are described by 7146 are fighting against "one of the greatest signs" just to justify the flame and smoke of hell in their imagination. If you wish to educate yourself about the real problem of these ingrates and the incredible divine prophecy, please read the following arguments. Here is a list
Which One Do You See Hell or Miracle?
http//www.19.org/index.php?id=14,175,0,0,1,0Was the Discovery of the Code 19 a Coincidence?
http//www.19.org/index.php?id=14,47,0,0,1,0Running Like Zebra
http//www.yuksel.org/e/religion/zebras.htmAnother Running Like Zebras
http//www.19.org/index.php?id=14,186,0,0,1,0Intelligent People's Guide to Code 19
http//19.org/?booksAnd regarding 9128-129, see the second half of the following letter
". . . Indeed, we believe in the message he brought" (7.75)
http//www.yuksel.org/e/religion/signs.htm -
Dear Anna
Those people who are described by 7146 are fighting against "one of the greatest signs" just to justify the flame and smoke of hell in their imagination. If you wish to educate yourself about the real problem of these ingrates and the incredible divine prophecy, please read the following arguments. Here is a list
Which One Do You See Hell or Miracle?
http//www.19.org/index.php?id=14,175,0,0,1,0Was the Discovery of the Code 19 a Coincidence?
http//www.19.org/index.php?id=14,47,0,0,1,0Running Like Zebra
http//www.yuksel.org/e/religion/zebras.htmAnother Running Like Zebras
http//www.19.org/index.php?id=14,186,0,0,1,0Intelligent People's Guide to Code 19
http//19.org/?booksAnd regarding 9128-129, see the second half of the following letter
". . . Indeed, we believe in the message he brought" (7.75)
http//www.yuksel.org/e/religion/signs.htmPeace Edip
I think you are a great scholar and that you have contributed much for Islam based on Quran alone. However, i liked the old edip more, the one that focused on the great reading, not on code 19. I can see that you have not changed your article even dough i showed you solid arguments and proofs that 1974 has nothing to do with code 19. To link 1974 (age of discovery) with Quran would be false since 1974 is the year of the christian calendar and has nothing to do with Islam or the Quran. But still you are promoting this Christian year (1974) in your article as shown below
- The year of the discovery of the code (1974).
- The number of lunar years between the revelation of the Quran and the year of the discovery (19x74).
Was the Discovery of the Code 19 a Coincidence?
http//www.19.org/index.php?id=14,47,0,0,1,0If you are a true reformist, which i don't doubt by the way, then please adapt to changes and arguments that show you that 1974 has nothing to do with islam, and please change/erase the year 1974 from your article, because it has nothing to do with islam or the quran and can't be used as an argument in my opinion.
Here is my arguments against the year 1974 and its connection with Islam
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=16379.0By the way I think its wrong to call other people ingrates, because it is not up to us to judge if other believers are ingrates or believer. Only god can judge people. I even think that one verse in the quran tells us to not call people ingrates/kafirs.
And yes, i believe the Quran has mathematical miracles, like for ecample the repetion of the word day 365 times in the Quran. But code 19 has nothing to with the Quran and is completely man made.
-
Peace Nimnimak,
Indeed the truth is the best. But what is the truth? Even those who reject the 19 pattern as a Divine act of God may have good intentions but may be equally wrong.
What you are saying is like saying "Even those who reject that there are little green men living in Mars may have good intentions but may be equally wrong". You first have to prove that there are little green men in Mars.
The truth is independent of humans. The illusion of a pattern is the result of human intervention as follows
- Start with a preconception or an obsession about a certain number such as 19.
- Pick any text, preferably one that has some spiritual significance.
- Use trial and error of THOUSANDS methods and data sets to get the preconceived result.
- Ignore the THOUSANDS of negative results.
- Present the 1 out of 19 positive results that would naturally occur in any random sample.
- Sprinkle the positive results with expressions like "remarkable phenomenon" and "the alteration of one of these letters destroys this phenomenon".
- Present to an audience who desperately needs to strengthen their faith in the text.
- Voila, now you have a miraculous code.
I cannot understand the pattern to be a coincidence. I see stronger evidence towards the pattern. Thus i accept it as an act of God. What other options do you suggest??
Again, what you are saying is like saying "I cannot understand that little green men from Mars are a coincidence". You have to prove that little green men from Mars exist first.
The only "act of god" that we know if you believe in 7431 is that he made the count of 19 ONLY a temptation for the disbelievers. You have presented ZERO evidence, let alone any strong evidence. There is ZERO evidence that the occurrence of 19 divisibles in the great reading is more than 1 in 19. The only way to determine if there is a pattern or not is to look at all the trials and examine the ratio of successful to failed trials. It is very simple. Unfortunately, those who idolize 19 don't want to do that.
Even Edip himself during our debate criticized those code hunters who constantly change methods. Please go check Khalifa's work and see for yourself that he NEVER used the same method twice. Also, Edip never once contested that Khalifa hid thousands of failed trials where he didn't get a 19 divisible. Instead, he contested my request to honestly share those failed trials. I think that the truth is clear even to those who are attracted to the count of 19.
Peace,
Ayman