Who are the people of the book?
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yajidoonahu / they find maktooban / written, described, whose example is defined AAinda / near, on, with hum / them fee / in Al-Tawrati wa Al-Injeeli
Confirmed....
Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah; and those who are with him are strong against Unbelievers, (but) compassionate amongst each other. You will see them bow and prostrate themselves (in Prayer), seeking Grace from Allah and (His) Good Pleasure. On their faces are their marks / seemahum fee wujoohihim , the traces of their prostration. This is their behavior in the Taurat; and their character in Al-Injeel is like a seed which sends forth its blade, then makes it strong; it then becomes thick, and it stands on its own stem, (filling) the sowers with wonder and delight. As a result, it fills the Unbelievers with rage at them. Allah has promised those among them who believe and do righteous deeds forgiveness, and a great Reward.
seemahum means a sign, a characteristic, outward characteristic, feature , trait, stamp, impress, character, facila expression, features, character traits;
Hans Wehr Arabic English Dictionary 4th Ed. Page 1255-1256 (wasama) Page 501-502 (sami?a)wujoohihim means direct face
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There is no 'writing' of 'previous scriptures'
Are you sure, then what was sent to Sheba other than a previous Quran?
Qalat ya ayyuha almalao innee olqiya ilayya kitabun kareemun
2729 She said "You, you the nobles, that I, is thrown to me (an) honored bookInnahu min sulaymana wainnahu bismi Allahi alrrahmani alrraheemi
2730 That it truly is from Soliman, and that it truly is by God's name the almighty, the most merciful.Innahu laqur-anun kareemun
5677 That it truly (is) a Quran, honored -
Are you sure, then what was sent to Sheba other than a previous Quran?
Qalat ya ayyuha almalao innee olqiya ilayya kitabun kareemun
2729 She said "You, you the nobles, that I, is thrown to me (an) honored bookInnahu min sulaymana wainnahu bismi Allahi alrrahmani alrraheemi
2730 That it truly is from Soliman, and that it truly is by God's name the almighty, the most merciful.Innahu laqur-anun kareemun
5677 That it truly (is) a Quran, honoredYou answered your own question!
Quran Kareem!
Sulaiman,as sends the Kitab to Saba....
"Go you, with this Kitabi of mine, and deliver it to them. then draw back from them, and (wait to) see what answer they return"...
Ithhab bikitabee hatha faalqih ilayhim thumma tawalla AAanhum faonthur matha yarjiAAoona
There was, for Saba, aforetime, a Sign in their home-land - two Gardens to the right and to the left. "Eat of the Sustenance (provided) by your Lord, and be grateful to Him. a territory fair and happy, and a Lord Oft-Forgiving!
Then they rejected....Quran Kareem
But they turned away (from Allah), and We sent against them the Flood (released) from the dams, and We converted their two garden (rows) into "gardens" producing bitter fruit, and tamarisks, and some few (stunted) Lote-trees.
That was the Requital We gave them because they ungratefully rejected Faith. and never do We give (such) requital except to such as are ungrateful rejecters.
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yajidoonahu / they find maktooban / written, described, whose example is defined AAinda / near, on, with hum / them fee / in Al-Tawrati wa Al-Injeeli
Confirmed....
Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah; and those who are with him are strong against Unbelievers, (but) compassionate amongst each other. You will see them bow and prostrate themselves (in Prayer), seeking Grace from Allah and (His) Good Pleasure. On their faces are their marks / seemahum fee wujoohihim , the traces of their prostration. This is their behavior in the Taurat; and their character in Al-Injeel is like a seed which sends forth its blade, then makes it strong; it then becomes thick, and it stands on its own stem, (filling) the sowers with wonder and delight. As a result, it fills the Unbelievers with rage at them. Allah has promised those among them who believe and do righteous deeds forgiveness, and a great Reward.
seemahum means a sign, a characteristic, outward characteristic, feature , trait, stamp, impress, character, facila expression, features, character traits;
Hans Wehr Arabic English Dictionary 4th Ed. Page 1255-1256 (wasama) Page 501-502 (sami?a)wujoohihim means direct face
Peace MTR
I see that you are making another attempt to bypass the 7157 and redirecting our attention elsewhere on other verses and you are therefore arousing a lot of confusion around... The 7157 is so plain and clear, however, your biased view is urging you to use the other verse as a confirmation... the very same verse which you keep pasting on and on... Whats wrong with you? Whats wrong wrong with your logic?
However, what I can find very wrong with you is your arabic grammar....
You are using all kind of words to describe the state of these words.... Can you use arabic words themselves to define these words?
MAKTOOBAN --> Haal, Mansoob (Do you know what this means?)
HAAL is a state of a word which denotes a state of something... Same as RAAKI3AN(bowing or humble state), QAA'IMAN (standing state) etc...
HAAL are always MANSOOB.... And this is the proof that MAKTOOB(AN) is a HAAL here....
MAKTOOB means written down... Can you find another meaning from the dictionaries? The object on which it is written down is clearly stated in the 7157 itself... Its written down 'FEE / in" At Tawrat and Al-Injeel.... But no idea why this is not fitting in your head.... Although its plain and clear...
The fact is, this 7157 alone proves that Al-Tawrat and Al-Injeel were written down... We all know that something written down cannot happen in the present... Since the Quran was currently being revealed, it cannot link back to mean the Quran.... This 7157 alone make your whole theory collapse....
I advice you to stop bringing so much confusion in the minds of people....
IF YOU WANT TO REPLY AGAIN, PLEASE, MAKE A WHOLE LONG POST ON THE 7157 ALONE AND NOT GO PASS IT IN 1 LINE.... IF VERILY, YOU ARE AMONG THE ONES WHO SPEAK THE TRUTH...
Regards
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Excuse me what is wrong with you?
You folks are so fixated on condemning and vilifying me that you cant see the forest for the trees....
Again....
Al Tawrat and Al Injeel is REVEALED!!!! NOT written
Get over it!!!!!
You tried to ignore the preposition AAinda and the pronoun 'hum' in a previous post, because thats the ONLY way you can suggest that the subject/object of the passive particle maktooban, can 'write' to Al Tawrat and Al Injeel.
That did'nt work.
Then someone wants to 'play' and 'manipulate' the grammatical rules by suggesting the passive particle does NOT require a subject/object. Just so you all can say Al Tawrat and Al Injeel was 'written', unbelievable.
That did'nt work either.
Ok Lets see If the 'Hal' works for you....
Define the accusative case in 7.157.....The Object...The Subject...The Verb
Allatheena yattabiAAoona alrrasoola alnnabiyya al-ommiyya allathee yajidoonahu maktooban AAinda-hum fee alttawrati waal-injeeli
I await your answer.....
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Excuse me what is wrong with you?
You folks are so fixated on condemning and vilifying me that you cant see the forest for the trees....
Again....
Al Tawrat and Al Injeel is REVEALED!!!! NOT written
Get over it!!!!!
Why to get over it? Because you are saying so? Even if it is in clear contradiction against the Quran... Also, its not of my intention to vilify you or whatever... It is just about proving your assumptions to be wrong when compared against what the Quran has to say...
You tried to ignore the preposition AAinda and the pronoun 'hum' in a previous post, because thats the ONLY way you can suggest that the subject/object of the passive particle maktooban, can 'write' to Al Tawrat and Al Injeel.
That did'nt work.
Then someone wants to 'play' and 'manipulate' the grammatical rules by suggesting the passive particle does NOT require a subject/object. Just so you all can say Al Tawrat and Al Injeel was 'written', unbelievable.
That did'nt work either.
Ok Lets see If the 'Hal' works for you....
Define the accusative case in 7.157.....The Object...The Subject...The Verb
Allatheena yattabiAAoona alrrasoola alnnabiyya al-ommiyya allathee yajidoonahu maktooban AAinda-hum fee alttawrati waal-injeeli
I await your answer.....
I told you... stop using these terms such as accusative/active participle or whatever... Use the original arabic terms as we learn in the NAHOU classes... For instance a noun can be marfou3,mansoob, majroor... same for a verb, but the verb can also remain mabnii...
MAKTOOBAN is HAAL... the proof is from the grammar rule that haal is always mansoob... mansoob means it ends with fatha/fathataan/yaa-noon
INDAHOUM is 'in their possession'... in whose possesion? definitely in the possession of the subject of this phrase, therefore 'those who are following the gentile prophet'... these guys are the subject of this phrase... INDAHOUM links back to them... Therefore, they have it written in their possesion... Now written in WHAT?? Again in same phrase... FII means IN... do u this meaning? Now in WHAT? At-Tawraat and Al-Injeel....
A phrase as simple as this ' Those who follow the gentile prophet/rasool whom they find written in their possesion in the tawraat and the injeel....' is so difficult to understand?
Again you fail to understand what Allah has revealed clearly and you are focussing on blurry parts... check this verse...
He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except God. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.
Also in your previous post... you brought the verse from Aal Imran to confirm this verse... However the 7157 itself is a confirmation verse, it is confirming the prophethood of Muhammad... So do we need another verse to confirm another confirmation verse? What about another verse to confirm the confirmation verse of the confirmation verse .... Endless loop.... When a verse is confirming something... It is stand alone...
I think I did not tell this anywhere, but I work in primary school and I teach Arabic language... Before becoming Arabic teacher, I studied arabic at school, then college, then institute before I get my teaching license... One of the main things we learn is the GRAMMAR or NAHOU and it is very important for the language... learning Arabic through english is not the right/best way... Arabic should be learn through arabic itself... same for the grammar and the grammatical lingo... So if you want to discuss this verse grammar-wise... you should discuss it using ARABIC lingo as we are dealing with arabic grammar which is very special compared to most other languages... So the ball is on your side....
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@Wayfinder......
What? Why all the minutia?
All I asked for was to identify the Hal accusative case in 7.157
Allatheena yattabiAAoona alrrasoola alnnabiyya al-ommiyya allathee yajidoonahu maktooban A'inda-hum fee alttawrati waal-injeeli
Let me assist you.....
Hal Accusative must be accusative or finite verb and must be placed AFTER the direct object. By the way, the Hal Accusative is 'nearly' ALWAYS an active participle, but may be a passive participle or even a verbal noun.
Language of the Holy Quran by Nadwi page 347 - 348@Wayfinder You have to consider the function both of the verb and of the preposition demanding the accusative in 7.157 (maktooban AAinda / -hum / ر
maktooban is NOT a finite verb, its a passive participle / , non-finite verb
@Wayfinder, Now you have to identify the Hal Accusative, because obviously maktooban does NOT meet the Finite Verb qualification.
Then your NEXT problem is trying to 'position' the Hal Accusative AFTER the direct object, that YOU claim are Al-Tawrat & Al-Injeel
@Wayfinder Again, Identify the Hal accusative case in 7.157 and position it correctly AFTER a direct object NOT subject, but object
I await your response.
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I have no idea what haal accusative /positive/negative or whatever you are talking about... Can you give me the arabic term of this please... it will make more sense for me and what I have to look for...
Well, let's just forget 7157 for this time and focus on this little sentence...
--> I found the news written in the newspaper
In Arabic --> wajad tou al-akhbaara maktooban fil jareedati
Is this phrase correct? If not... then don't just post your grammar rules, BUT also correct this and re-phrase it as it should be...
Thank you....
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Peace MTR
I see that you are making another attempt to bypass the 7157 and redirecting our attention elsewhere on other verses and you are therefore arousing a lot of confusion around... The 7157 is so plain and clear, however, your biased view is urging you to use the other verse as a confirmation... the very same verse which you keep pasting on and on... Whats wrong with you? Whats wrong wrong with your logic?
However, what I can find very wrong with you is your arabic grammar....
You are using all kind of words to describe the state of these words.... Can you use arabic words themselves to define these words?
MAKTOOBAN --> Haal, Mansoob (Do you know what this means?)
HAAL is a state of a word which denotes a state of something... Same as RAAKI3AN(bowing or humble state), QAA'IMAN (standing state) etc...
HAAL are always MANSOOB.... And this is the proof that MAKTOOB(AN) is a HAAL here....
MAKTOOB means written down... Can you find another meaning from the dictionaries? The object on which it is written down is clearly stated in the 7157 itself... Its written down 'FEE / in" At Tawrat and Al-Injeel.... But no idea why this is not fitting in your head.... Although its plain and clear...
The fact is, this 7157 alone proves that Al-Tawrat and Al-Injeel were written down... We all know that something written down cannot happen in the present... Since the Quran was currently being revealed, it cannot link back to mean the Quran.... This 7157 alone make your whole theory collapse....
I advice you to stop bringing so much confusion in the minds of people....
IF YOU WANT TO REPLY AGAIN, PLEASE, MAKE A WHOLE LONG POST ON THE 7157 ALONE AND NOT GO PASS IT IN 1 LINE.... IF VERILY, YOU ARE AMONG THE ONES WHO SPEAK THE TRUTH...
Regards
I have no idea what haal accusative /positive/negative or whatever you are talking about... Can you give me the arabic term of this please... it will make more sense for what I have to look for...
You brought it up!!!!
;D laughrotfl
Im not forgeting Sura 7.157, you can go read newspapers. I will continue to read and study the Quran and the language of Allah.
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You brought it up!!!!
;D laughrotfl
Im not forgeting Sura 7.157, you can go read newspapers. I will continue to read and study the Quran and the language of Allah.
Are you making a joke of yourself or what? Its not about reading the newspapers... Its about you and how you apply your weird grammar rules.... Do you think shooting smileys like this make you and your theory foolproof Can never be... Burst your bubble... smileys cannot help you...
You said you are not forgetting the 7157 but however YOU DID FORGET IT since I asked you to give a proper translation for this verse... So go on, give it... and lets see how its translate into english... is it difficult? Or will you again take the round about and start with your accusatives, participles and other stuff to fill this thread.... I am just asking for a proper translation on 7157.. thats all... And since YOU ARE STILL ARGUING on HAAL... therefore this is the reason why I brought up the 'newspaper' phrase so that you may CORRECT the phrase and the USAGE of the HAAL as you are saying PER YOUR RULES.... So you got another chance... You can translate the 7157 or the newspaper... nevermind, since both are using the HAAL maktooban... just wanna get your translation on the HAAL...
Ball on your side... will you shoot smileys again
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@Wayfinder, I didn't ask you to fall in love with me, its fine.
Next time you engage me, please know what your talking about.
Lets summarize and end this argument your having with the Quran.
Yajidoonahu imperfect verb meaning "they perceive". I would suggest that its a Verb Form III, indicating the object of the verb is ?accompanied by someone or something." It indicates a participation between the subject (Messenger) and the object (Those/They who follow the Messenger).
Maktooban (written) is a passive participle, which according to formal rules of modern Arabic, the passive voice can only be used when the agent / doer is not expressed (Majhool / Unknown?).
Passive means a verb, or form of a verb, which expresses the effect of the action on the Object of the verb (Those/They who follow the Messenger), Passive Verb denotes the act is taking place among someone discoverable, and the act is done either through a human agency or through an unknown inner cause (Reference ?Learn the Language of The Quran? page 248
The Preposition A'inda is influencing or governing the verb Maktooban, bringing the influence of the passive verb, Maktooban 'near the presence' of the Object (Those/They who follow the Messenger), defined by the pronoun 'Hum / Them or They'
Its Allah who 'writes' upon the heart of the Believer and the Messengers influence the character and behavior of those who follow them, which this character and behavior is exemplified and defined in the Tawrat & Injeel
Sorry, no 'written scriptures' in Sura 7.157
Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah; and those who are with him are strong against Unbelievers, (but) compassionate amongst each other. You will see them bow and prostrate themselves (in Prayer), seeking Grace from Allah and (His) Good Pleasure. On their faces are their marks / seemahum fee wujoohihim , the traces of their prostration. This is their behavior in the Taurat; and their character in Al-Injeel is like a seed which sends forth its blade, then makes it strong; it then becomes thick, and it stands on its own stem, (filling) the sowers with wonder and delight. As a result, it fills the Unbelievers with rage at them. Allah has promised those among them who believe and do righteous deeds forgiveness, and a great Reward.
seemahum means a sign, a characteristic, outward characteristic, feature , trait, stamp, impress, character, facila expression, features, character traits;
Hans Wehr Arabic English Dictionary 4th Ed. Page 1255-1256 (wasama) Page 501-502 (sami?a)wujoohihim means direct face
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@Wayfinder, I didn't ask you to fall in love with me, its fine.
Next time you engage me, please know what your talking about.
Lets summarize and end this argument your having with the Quran.
Yajidoonahu imperfect verb meaning "they perceive". I would suggest that its a Verb Form III, indicating the object of the verb is ?accompanied by someone or something." It indicates a participation between the subject (Messenger) and the object (Those/They who follow the Messenger).
Maktooban (written) is a passive participle, which according to formal rules of modern Arabic, the passive voice can only be used when the agent / doer is not expressed (Majhool / Unknown?).
Passive means a verb, or form of a verb, which expresses the effect of the action on the Object of the verb (Those/They who follow the Messenger), Passive Verb denotes the act is taking place among someone discoverable, and the act is done either through a human agency or through an unknown inner cause (Reference ?Learn the Language of The Quran? page 248
The Preposition A'inda is influencing or governing the verb Maktooban, bringing the influence of the passive verb, Maktooban 'near the presence' of the Object (Those/They who follow the Messenger), defined by the pronoun 'Hum / Them or They'
Its Allah who 'writes' upon the heart of the Believer and the Messengers influence the character and behavior of those who follow them, which this character and behavior is exemplified and defined in the Tawrat & Injeel
Sorry, no 'written scriptures' in Sura 7.157
Had you been a translator... is this how you will do the translation for the people you work for?? They will definitely kick you out... I asked you for a total translation... read the post above again... I asked for the whole translation of this phrase.. Not a word by word analysis on and on... So will you do it at the end??
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Peace MTR,
Its Allah who 'writes' upon the heart of the Believer and the Messengers influence the character and behavior of those who follow them, which this character and behavior is exemplified and defined in the Tawrat & Injeel
Sorry, no 'written scriptures' in Sura 7.157
Not trying to barge in or anything, but how are you drawing the conclusion that no written scriptures are mentioned in 7157?
"Follow the messenger, the gentile prophet, whom they find written in their Torah and Gospel. He exhorts them to be righteous, enjoins them from evil, allows for them all good food, and prohibits that which is bad, and unloads the burdens and the shackles imposed upon them. Those who believe in him, respect him, support him, and follow the light that came with him are the successful ones." (7157)
Both the Torah and the Gospel are WRITTEN SCRIPTURES, so of course 7157 mentions written scriptures. If you think they're not actually written scriptures, then how does the Quran (ANOTHER WRITTEN SCRIPTURE) confirm them?
The example of those who were given the Torah, then failed to uphold it, is like the donkey carrying great works of literature. Miserable indeed is the example of people who rejected God's revelations. God does not guide the wicked people. (625)
Peace,
Ahmad
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Peace MTR,
Not trying to barge in or anything, but how are you drawing the conclusion that no written scriptures are mentioned in 7157?
"Follow the messenger, the gentile prophet, whom they find written in their Torah and Gospel. He exhorts them to be righteous, enjoins them from evil, allows for them all good food, and prohibits that which is bad, and unloads the burdens and the shackles imposed upon them. Those who believe in him, respect him, support him, and follow the light that came with him are the successful ones." (7157)
Both the Torah and the Gospel are WRITTEN SCRIPTURES, so of course 7157 mentions written scriptures. If you think they're not actually written scriptures, then how does the Quran (ANOTHER WRITTEN SCRIPTURE) confirm them?
The example of those who were given the Torah, then failed to uphold it, is like the donkey carrying great works of literature. Miserable indeed is the example of people who rejected God's revelations. God does not guide the wicked people. (625)
Peace,
Ahmad
Assalaam Alaikum @Ahmad
Please read the thread. Secondly, I do NOT argue about English translations. 'Torah' is NOT Tawrat, Injel is NOT Bible
Sura 7.157 does NOT say anything or imply ANY 'previous scriptures'
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Assalaam Alaikum @Ahmad
Please read the thread. Secondly, I do NOT argue about English translations. 'Torah' is NOT Tawrat, Injel is NOT Bible
Sura 7.157 does NOT say anything or imply ANY 'previous scriptures'
Peace MTR
I still await your PROPER translation of 7157 or even my newspaper phrase... And we will be fixed insha Allah....
Regards
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Peace MTR,
Please read the thread. Secondly, I do NOT argue about English translations. 'Torah' is NOT Tawrat, Injel is NOT Bible
Sura 7.157 does NOT say anything or imply ANY 'previous scriptures'
After reading through most of the thread, it seems like you're confusing certain basic facts. For starters, "Torah" is not an English translation of "Tawrah", they are the same thing. The dialect and pronounciation is slightly different, but other than that, they are the same object. The "Injeel" is the message that was revealed to Esa (Jesus) to confirm the "Tawrah" (Torah). Both of them are books that were revealed and written, just like the Quran was revealed and written... Also, the Quran doesn't say the Torah was revealed to Moses; Moses and Aaron were sent the statute book. According to the Quran, all the prophets before Jesus received the Torah, and the statute book sent to Moses and Aaron is INCLUDED in that "Tawrah".
7157 clearly speaks about the previous scriptures, which is why the word "written/described or recorded in writing" is used.
Peace,
Ahmad
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Peace MTR,
After reading through most of the thread, it seems like you're confusing certain basic facts. For starters, "Torah" is not an English translation of "Tawrah", they are the same thing. The dialect and pronounciation is slightly different, but other than that, they are the same object. The "Injeel" is the message that was revealed to Esa (Jesus) to confirm the "Tawrah" (Torah). Both of them are books that were revealed and written, just like the Quran was revealed and written... Also, the Quran doesn't say the Torah was revealed to Moses; Moses and Aaron were sent the statute book. According to the Quran, all the prophets before Jesus received the Torah, and the statute book sent to Moses and Aaron is INCLUDED in that "Tawrah".
7157 clearly speaks about the previous scriptures, which is why the word "written/described or recorded in writing" is used.
Peace,
Ahmad
Its seems you may have 'read' the thread, but you failed to consider the facts.
Torah is a Hebrew word meaning 'instruction'
The word "Torah" in Hebrew "is derived from the root which in the hifil conjugation means "to teach" (cf. Lev. 1011). The meaning of the word is therefore "teaching," "doctrine," or "instruction"; the commonly accepted "law" gives a wrong impression."
Rabinowitz, Louis Isaac and Harvey, Warren. "Torah." Encyclopaedia Judaica. Ed
The term "Torah" is therefore also used in the general sense to include both Judaism's written law and oral law, serving to encompass the entire spectrum of authoritative Jewish religious teachings throughout history, including the Mishnah, the Talmud, the Midrash and more, and the inaccurate rendering of "Torah" as "Law" may be an obstacle to "understanding the ideal that is summed up in the term talmud torah ( , "study of Torah,", characterized in Jewish tradition as excelling all things."
pp.164-165, Scherman, Exodus 1249Tawrat is a Arabic term meaning 'Law'
Secondly Allah states that the Tawrat was revealed NOT written
Thirdly the Bile says that Moses was given Torah and Jesus was given Injiil
Yet the Quran says the Tawrat and Injill was revealed BEFORE Muusa and Essa
It is He Who sent down to you (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what is between your two hands / musaddiqan li ma bayna yadayhi; and He sent down the Law and the Injeel
(revealed) FROM BEFORE, as a guidance to mankind / min qablu hudan lilnnasi, and it is He who has revealed / anzala the standard by which to discern the true from the false / Al-Furqan. Behold, as for those who are bent on denying God's signs / kafaroo bi ayati Allahi - grievous suffering awaits them for God is almighty, an avenger of evil.
Lastly, You may have noticed in the most receent posts, that it was quite clear that 7.157 does NOT state or imply that there were 'previous scriptures' 'written'.
Allatheena yattabiAAoona alrrasoola alnnabiyya al-ommiyya allathee yajidoonahu maktooban A'inda-hum fee alttawrati waal-injeeli
I dont argue about english translations, If you have an argument, please support your argument from the grammar and language of the Quran.
Salaam Alaikum
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Its seems you may have 'read' the thread, but you failed to consider the facts.
Torah is a Hebrew word meaning 'instruction'
The word "Torah" in Hebrew "is derived from the root which in the hifil conjugation means "to teach" (cf. Lev. 1011). The meaning of the word is therefore "teaching," "doctrine," or "instruction"; the commonly accepted "law" gives a wrong impression."
Rabinowitz, Louis Isaac and Harvey, Warren. "Torah." Encyclopaedia Judaica. Ed
The term "Torah" is therefore also used in the general sense to include both Judaism's written law and oral law, serving to encompass the entire spectrum of authoritative Jewish religious teachings throughout history, including the Mishnah, the Talmud, the Midrash and more, and the inaccurate rendering of "Torah" as "Law" may be an obstacle to "understanding the ideal that is summed up in the term talmud torah ( , "study of Torah,", characterized in Jewish tradition as excelling all things."
pp.164-165, Scherman, Exodus 1249Tawrat is a Arabic term meaning 'Law'
Secondly Allah states that the Tawrat was revealed NOT written
Thirdly the Bile says that Moses was given Torah and Jesus was given Injiil
Yet the Quran says the Tawrat and Injill was revealed BEFORE Muusa and Essa
It is He Who sent down to you (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what is between your two hands / musaddiqan li ma bayna yadayhi; and He sent down the Law and the Injeel
(revealed) FROM BEFORE, as a guidance to mankind / min qablu hudan lilnnasi, and it is He who has revealed / anzala the standard by which to discern the true from the false / Al-Furqan. Behold, as for those who are bent on denying God's signs / kafaroo bi ayati Allahi - grievous suffering awaits them for God is almighty, an avenger of evil.
Lastly, You may have noticed in the most receent posts, that it was quite clear that 7.157 does NOT state or imply that there were 'previous scriptures' 'written'.
Allatheena yattabiAAoona alrrasoola alnnabiyya al-ommiyya allathee yajidoonahu maktooban A'inda-hum fee alttawrati waal-injeeli
I dont argue about english translations, If you have an argument, please support your argument from the grammar and language of the Quran.
Salaam Alaikum
Peace
Who is asking you to argue english translations... We are just asking you to provide your own translation of the 7157... not a word by word analysis... but translate the verse itself... will you? Since you seem to be very good at arabic grammar, you will be able to translate this verse without problem... And the case will be solved...
When you say something is bad... you do not just end it there... but YOU PROVIDE the corrected version... So please do...
NOTE The argument is not about Torah being revealed before or after Moses, or the meaning of the word Torah... The argument is WHETHER THESE SCRIPTURES WERE WRITTEN DOWN OR NOT... So stop taking the roundabout each time...
Thank you
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Peace MTR,
This is a ridiculous debate. Your ideologies are completely misguided...
Torah is a Hebrew word meaning 'instruction'
The word "Torah" in Hebrew "is derived from the root which in the hifil conjugation means "to teach" (cf. Lev. 1011). The meaning of the word is therefore "teaching," "doctrine," or "instruction"; the commonly accepted "law" gives a wrong impression."
Rabinowitz, Louis Isaac and Harvey, Warren. "Torah." Encyclopaedia Judaica. Ed
The term "Torah" is therefore also used in the general sense to include both Judaism's written law and oral law, serving to encompass the entire spectrum of authoritative Jewish religious teachings throughout history, including the Mishnah, the Talmud, the Midrash and more, and the inaccurate rendering of "Torah" as "Law" may be an obstacle to "understanding the ideal that is summed up in the term talmud torah ( , "study of Torah,", characterized in Jewish tradition as excelling all things."
pp.164-165, Scherman, Exodus 1249This is what I said in the beginning. However, based on the Quran, the "Torah/Tawrah" is referring to the revelations to all the Jewish prophets, and this includes the book of Moses and Aaron (the statute book).
Tawrat is a Arabic term meaning 'Law'
I don't know where you're getting these definitions, but they're completely wrong. The Hebrew word "TORAH" is referring to something hidden or concealed, and many view it as the Law of Moses, but ACCORDING TO THE QURAN, the Torah was a compilation of the Hebrew scriptures, and the statute book ("Law of Moses" is a part of this scripture, not the whole thing. The "Torah" and the "Tawrat" are the same thing... And maybe you should consult a dictionary before you conclude the false statement that "tawrat" is an Arabic word meaning "Law"...
Secondly Allah states that the Tawrat was revealed NOT written
Thirdly the Bile says that Moses was given Torah and Jesus was given Injiil
Yet the Quran says the Tawrat and Injill was revealed BEFORE Muusa and Essa
This is ridiculous. Nowhere in the Quran will you find that the entire Tawrat was revealed to Moses, and you won't find anywhere that says that the Torah and Injeel were revealed prior to Moses and Jesus. If there are, then post them.
Lastly, You may have noticed in the most receent posts, that it was quite clear that 7.157 does NOT state or imply that there were 'previous scriptures' 'written'.
I dont argue about english translations, If you have an argument, please support your argument from the grammar and language of the Quran.
This is especially ridiculous, and it's being demonstrated throughout the thread. I'm starting to think you're really doing this on purpose, instead of just lacking knowledge, like you are deliberately trying to cause confusion... It is VERY CLEAR what 7157 is talking about. You're claiming it says something different, yet you won't post what you believe it really says, forming a circular argument that's really wasting everyone's time. If you're going to form an alternate meaning about the verse, then speak on it; if you won't say it, though, at least allow others to form a true, basic, reasonable to the scripture - it is directly speaking about previous scriptures...
Peace,
Ahmad
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Assalaam Alaikum Ahmad
Again, I personally dont argue from the position of english translations. I have supported my position from the Quran and the language of the Quran, thats it, thats all.
Im NOT going to support your argument with the Quran. Thus I would suggest you review the thread and address the ayahs from the position of the grammar and language of the Quran, then we can talk.
Here is the reference you claimed did NOT exist
Sura Al-Imran identifies The Family of Imran
Allah did choose Adam and Noah, the family of Abraham, and the family of 'Imran above all people,-
It is He Who sent down to you (step by step), in truth, The Book / Al-Kitab, confirming what is between your two hands / musaddiqan li ma bayna yadayhi; and He sent down the Law and the Injeel
(revealed) FROM BEFORE, as a guidance to mankind / min qablu hudan lilnnasi, and it is He who has revealed / anzala the standard by which to discern the true from the false / Al-Furqan. Behold, as for those who are bent on denying God's signs / kafaroo bi ayati Allahi - grievous suffering awaits them for God is almighty, an avenger of evil.