Oral Debate between Ayman and Edip...

belH

thats makes the 2 of us, as you never answered mine.........

nope
yes
-\

Okay; but do not ignore the Fact that God used the word 7aleem, which is one of his names, to discribe Abrahem.

Now, I will give you some more examples

Example one shows how people use one of God's name (God's Title) to discribe Human

(&#1641

Said the Chiefs of the people of Pharaoh "This is indeed a sorcerer well-versed. (7-109)

(&#1634
And bring up to thee all (our) sorcerers well-versed." (7-112)

Example two shows how God used his name (God's Title) to discribe people

(&#1638

So he began (the search) with their baggage, before (he came to) the baggage of his brother at length He brought it out of his brother's baggage. Thus did We plan for Joseph. He could not take his brother by the law of the king except that Allah willed it (so). We raise to degrees (of wisdom) whom We please but over all endued with knowledge is One more knowledgable. (12-76)

Example Three shows Angels useing God's Name (God's Title) to discribe a Human (Issac)

(&#1635

They said "Fear not! We give thee glad tidings of a son endowed with wisdom." (15-53)

(&#1640

(When they did not eat), He conceived a fear of them. They said "Fear not" and they gave him glad tidings of a son endowed with knowledge. (51-2

Example four shows a Messanger of God using two names of God (God's Titles) to discribe himself

(&#1637

(Joseph) said "Set me over the storehouses of the land I ?m a keeper and Knowledgeable" (12-55)

Thus, 9-128 is not different than any of the above example.

Peace

nimnimak_11

Peace Anna,

I am sure that many people were also attracted to the great reading by Hadiths and Sira that tell about the miracles supposedly performed by the prophet and some are even filled with some heart warming stories, like the one about the cat from which Abu Hurayra got his nick name. This doesn't make Hadiths true nor does it make those who believe in such things believers in the message of the great reading. Many Hadith collectors, Sunni scholars, 19ers and other such propagators of falsehood have good intentions. But even the best intentions are not substitutes for the truth.

Peace,

Ayman

Peace

Indeed the truth is the best. But what is the truth? Even those who reject the 19 pattern as a Divine act of God may have good intentions but may be equally wrong.

I cannot understand the pattern to be a coincidence. I see stronger evidence towards the pattern. Thus i accept it as an act of God. What other options do you suggest??

Edip_Yuksel

Dear Anna

Those people who are described by 7146 are fighting against "one of the greatest signs" just to justify the flame and smoke of hell in their imagination. If you wish to educate yourself about the real problem of these ingrates and the incredible divine prophecy, please read the following arguments. Here is a list

Which One Do You See Hell or Miracle?
http//www.19.org/index.php?id=14,175,0,0,1,0

Was the Discovery of the Code 19 a Coincidence?
http//www.19.org/index.php?id=14,47,0,0,1,0

Running Like Zebra
http//www.yuksel.org/e/religion/zebras.htm

Another Running Like Zebras
http//www.19.org/index.php?id=14,186,0,0,1,0

Intelligent People's Guide to Code 19
http//19.org/?books

And regarding 9128-129, see the second half of the following letter

". . . Indeed, we believe in the message he brought" (7.75)
http//www.yuksel.org/e/religion/signs.htm

unknownuser

Dear Anna

Those people who are described by 7146 are fighting against "one of the greatest signs" just to justify the flame and smoke of hell in their imagination. If you wish to educate yourself about the real problem of these ingrates and the incredible divine prophecy, please read the following arguments. Here is a list

Which One Do You See Hell or Miracle?
http//www.19.org/index.php?id=14,175,0,0,1,0

Was the Discovery of the Code 19 a Coincidence?
http//www.19.org/index.php?id=14,47,0,0,1,0

Running Like Zebra
http//www.yuksel.org/e/religion/zebras.htm

Another Running Like Zebras
http//www.19.org/index.php?id=14,186,0,0,1,0

Intelligent People's Guide to Code 19
http//19.org/?books

And regarding 9128-129, see the second half of the following letter

". . . Indeed, we believe in the message he brought" (7.75)
http//www.yuksel.org/e/religion/signs.htm

Peace Edip

I think you are a great scholar and that you have contributed much for Islam based on Quran alone. However, i liked the old edip more, the one that focused on the great reading, not on code 19. I can see that you have not changed your article even dough i showed you solid arguments and proofs that 1974 has nothing to do with code 19. To link 1974 (age of discovery) with Quran would be false since 1974 is the year of the christian calendar and has nothing to do with Islam or the Quran. But still you are promoting this Christian year (1974) in your article as shown below

The year of the discovery of the code (1974).
The number of lunar years between the revelation of the Quran and the year of the discovery (19x74).

Was the Discovery of the Code 19 a Coincidence?
http//www.19.org/index.php?id=14,47,0,0,1,0

If you are a true reformist, which i don't doubt by the way, then please adapt to changes and arguments that show you that 1974 has nothing to do with islam, and please change/erase the year 1974 from your article, because it has nothing to do with islam or the quran and can't be used as an argument in my opinion.

Here is my arguments against the year 1974 and its connection with Islam
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=16379.0

By the way I think its wrong to call other people ingrates, because it is not up to us to judge if other believers are ingrates or believer. Only god can judge people. I even think that one verse in the quran tells us to not call people ingrates/kafirs.

And yes, i believe the Quran has mathematical miracles, like for ecample the repetion of the word day 365 times in the Quran. But code 19 has nothing to with the Quran and is completely man made.

ayman

Peace Nimnimak,

Indeed the truth is the best. But what is the truth? Even those who reject the 19 pattern as a Divine act of God may have good intentions but may be equally wrong.

What you are saying is like saying "Even those who reject that there are little green men living in Mars may have good intentions but may be equally wrong". You first have to prove that there are little green men in Mars.

The truth is independent of humans. The illusion of a pattern is the result of human intervention as follows

Start with a preconception or an obsession about a certain number such as 19.
Pick any text, preferably one that has some spiritual significance.
Use trial and error of THOUSANDS methods and data sets to get the preconceived result.
Ignore the THOUSANDS of negative results.
Present the 1 out of 19 positive results that would naturally occur in any random sample.
Sprinkle the positive results with expressions like "remarkable phenomenon" and "the alteration of one of these letters destroys this phenomenon".
Present to an audience who desperately needs to strengthen their faith in the text.
Voila, now you have a miraculous code.

I cannot understand the pattern to be a coincidence. I see stronger evidence towards the pattern. Thus i accept it as an act of God. What other options do you suggest??

Again, what you are saying is like saying "I cannot understand that little green men from Mars are a coincidence". You have to prove that little green men from Mars exist first.

The only "act of god" that we know if you believe in 7431 is that he made the count of 19 ONLY a temptation for the disbelievers. You have presented ZERO evidence, let alone any strong evidence. There is ZERO evidence that the occurrence of 19 divisibles in the great reading is more than 1 in 19. The only way to determine if there is a pattern or not is to look at all the trials and examine the ratio of successful to failed trials. It is very simple. Unfortunately, those who idolize 19 don't want to do that.

Even Edip himself during our debate criticized those code hunters who constantly change methods. Please go check Khalifa's work and see for yourself that he NEVER used the same method twice. Also, Edip never once contested that Khalifa hid thousands of failed trials where he didn't get a 19 divisible. Instead, he contested my request to honestly share those failed trials. I think that the truth is clear even to those who are attracted to the count of 19.

Peace,

Ayman

unknownuser

And regarding 9128-129, see the second half of the following letter

". . . Indeed, we believe in the message he brought" (7.75)
http//www.yuksel.org/e/religion/signs.htm

Peace,

Removing verses by obvious manipulation is saying God deceived people 1400 years.

The fre-quency of the word God (Allah) is 2698 (19x142), without those two.
The sum of the num-bers of all verses con-taining the word God is 118123 (19x6217), without those two.
The fre-quency of the word God, from the begin-ning of the Quran until the end of Chapter 9 is 1273 (19x67), without those two.
The fre-quency of the word God, from the first initialed chapter un-til the last initialed chapter is 2641 (19x139), without those two.
From the missing Basmalah of Chapter 9 until the extra Basmalah of Chapter 27, the word God is men-tioned in 513 (19x27) verses, without those two.

The same counts using same method would be achieved by removing any Allah verse.

As bukuri did with hadith ? you choose 9129 as not being salih based on bukuri et al.

The fre-quency of the word "Elah (god)" is 95 (19x5), without those two.

The same count using same method is achieved by removing any "Elah (god)" verse.

The fre-quency of the word "Arsh" re-ferring to God?s do-main is 19, without those two.

The same count using same method is achieved removing...

2726 Allahu la ilaha illa huwa rabbu alAAarshi alAAatheemi

Why remove...?

9129 Fain tawallaw faqul hasbiya Allahu la ilaha illa huwa AAalayhi tawakkaltu wahuwa rabbu alAAarshi alAAatheemi

The number of all verses, including 112 un-numbered Basmalahs is 6346 (19x334), without those two. The abso-lute value of this number is 19, without those two.

Again, how many other combinations will yield same result by removing other verses?

The fre-quency of Rahim (Merciful) is 114 (19x6). Verse 9.129 cre-ate a curious single ex-ception by using it for prophet Muhammad. The other names men-tioned in Basmalah, that is, Allah and Rahman are never at-tributed to others than God.

The count would be same if ANY Ram verse is removed.

9128 in context is not about forgiving sins; compassionate, humane, kind are all human traits...

3021 ...and He made between you love warahmatan...
5727 ...and we placed in the hearts of his followers kindness warahmatan...
1724 And be comforting to them the humbleness's wing from alrrahmati...

Bahman

i showed you solid arguments and proofs that 1974 has nothing to do with code 19. To link 1974 (age of discovery) with Quran would be false since 1974 is the year of the christian calendar and has nothing to do with Islam or the Quran. But still you are promoting this Christian year (1974) in your article as shown below

Peace David
You know that I believe in code 19 and promote it is solid proof for exitence of super human Creator, Allah, God, Lord, .................. different name in different languages

Rashad was like other previous messenger and human and fallible. I am not in position to judge his translation but after 10 years study and promoting code 19 in the path of God Alone Quran Alone I do not accept anything from outside of Quran which are fallible to be mixed with Quran properties which are word of God and infallible.
So such idea rejects

17 times TRADITIONAL contact prayer
End of world
And 1974 too.
Any new name to be used for claiming messenger ship.
Secret was inspired to Rashad and his name is authored 19 times in that book.
There are many names in the book that later was used as name like ABadolRahim , Ahmed and ?????????.
Proof belongs to Rashad and no other one can claim for his name in Quran other way will have millions messenger

It was last week when I was studying timing which is its base is wrong. Like all other measuring units.
Our ancestors concluded to divide each rotation of earth into 24 hour and later we made it into 60 minutes each hour 60 seconds milli, micro and so on.
Now we know that our leap year is due 3 minutes difference in real time and out 24 hrs time
And then Christian astronomer claim that Christian colander is not right. So I was rejecting any colander property to mixed with Quran?s property including 1974.
And only that but people like Ayman calling code as numerology hence there is no date in patterns and mixing colander with patterns then is numerology.
I am not sure for what reason I downloaded a colander calculator and it was interesting to see that you can find how many day you have lived in this illusion.
Then suddenly came to my mind find how many days Rashad lived and in a second I see 19 798 which I had worked for it a clip and without calculator I could see its disability by 19 and the all those symmetrical linkages and connections.
I am not going to rewrite it . Please visit here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9596880.msg182544#msg182544
But to answer your question after you read in above post is that 1974 is refrence number as is beyond 19798 rotations of earth.
God knows all our faulty measuring units and GW if send an astronomer messenger to develop timing on the moon as calculating no matter how accurate be it will be rejected by all corrupted religions specially if that messenger to work with 19 nanos.
How ever the following slide another related one is not creating any security for text but are supported by all data from book plus 19798 times of sunrise when the bird do their prayers.
http//y19.net/Slide3.JPG
Peace

.

Bahman

The truth is independent of humans. The illusion of a pattern is the result of human intervention as follows
Ayman

Peace

Peace Bahman,

From a Code 19 point of view, what I produced is far better than Chapter 57. In fact it is far better than any chapter in the great reading. Even the simplest facts that I produced, for example 19 verses with 19 letters each are unmatched by any chapter in the great reading.
I actually confess and I completely agree with you that my response is cheap, nonsense and ridiculous. Yet from a Code 19 point of view it is superior to any chapter in the great reading. This should tell you that Code 19 is even more cheap, nonsense and ridiculous.I
Ayman

Peace
Ayaman show your abilty and just produce like 57Q. Yours is designed and is that coincidence or man made. ?
Where is the truth? What takes you to such nonesense ? Get out from that lock, remove dust from your eyes, see the truth
Peace

PS PLEASE SHOW HOW MANY TRAILS NEED TO COUNT 57Q

muawiya

Kagem tiang-tiang saking manca negara ingkang kulo hormati ...

The truth is independent of humans. The illusion of a pattern is the result of human intervention as follows

Start with a preconception or an obsession about a certain number such as 19.
Pick any text, preferably one that has some spiritual significance.
Use trial and error of THOUSANDS methods and data sets to get the preconceived result.
Ignore the THOUSANDS of negative results.
Present the 1 out of 19 positive results that would naturally occur in any random sample.
Sprinkle the positive results with expressions like "remarkable phenomenon" and "the alteration of one of these letters destroys this phenomenon".
Present to an audience who desperately needs to strengthen their faith in the text.
Voila, now you have a miraculous code.

Dear Sirs,

Why we do not think that 19 is only hint gived from God to seek miracle(s) in Koran
And we MUST do 'trial and error' to find out the micracle(s) using that hint (19).
It is because we believe that Koran has miracle(s).

Let we say " There is a miracle within an rectangle". Hint "verify the side(s)"
And then we MUST verify all possibilties using that hint ( side ) until we find c^2=a^2+b^2
Because it is exact formula, so it is easy for us to see/judge that c^2=a^2+b^2 is a miracle

Peace
muawiya

muawiya

Let we say " There is a miracle within an rectangle". Hint "verify the side(s)"

Sorry, I meant triangle

Salam
Muawiya

ayman

Peace Muawiya,

Because it is exact formula, so it is easy for us to see/judge that c^2=a^2+b^2 is a miracle

Exactly. Because it is an exact formula we can see and judge that it is a c^2=a^2+b^2 pattern. We can plug whatever parameters into this formula and get a predictable result. This is the definition of a pattern. So now knowing this, please tell us the formula (i.e., the pattern) for Code 19.

The fact is that there is no formula. Each 19 divisible in Code 19 has its own formula and no Code 19 calculation uses the same forumla twice. So there is no pattern. It is simply whatever haphazard formula works out of the thousands upon thousands of different possibilities.

So this would be like Code 19 hunters trying a^2+b^2 = 19 (for example if a and b are the count of a certain letters, words or verse, etc.) and finding out that it is false so they keep trying a + b or a x b or ab or ba or Gematrical value G(a)b or G(b)a or aG(b) or bG(a) or G(a)G(b) or G(b)G(a) or G(a)+G(b), etc. etc. As you can see, just with two parameters there can be so many different combinations. Code 19 hunters use thousands upon thousands of formulas and data sets. Out of those thousands and thousands of different possibilities, 1 out of 19 will be divisible by 19 anyway. This is what they and Dr. Khalifa presented to you and they hid all their failed trials. What I am saying is an indisputable fact. Even Edip, who was involved first hand in Dr. Khalifa's work, never contested this. He only contested my request to share the failed trials.

Peace,

Ayman

Bahman

Peace Muawiya,
Exactly.........................

PS PLEASE SHOW HOW MANY TRAILS NEED TO COUNT 57Q

ayman

Peace Bahman,

PS PLEASE SHOW HOW MANY TRAILS NEED TO COUNT 57Q

This is exactly what I am talking about. You are only telling us about the successful trial for counting Q. You are not telling us about the many failed trials in counting the letters of the words TH, TSM, TS, etc., where no matter how hard 19ers try they can't get a 19 divisible.

Peace,

Ayman

Bahman

Peace Bahman,

This is exactly what I am talking about. You are only telling us about the successful trial for counting Q. You are not telling us about the many failed trials in counting the letters of the words TH, TSM, TS, etc., where no matter how hard 19ers try they can't get a 19 divisible.

Peace,

Ayman

Peace

anthonywallace

Thoe the number 19 seem to be useful for protecting the count of the word " God" in the Quran, it is not. God be glorified High above
all that they set up. The Mention of God in verses 9129 overides Rashads falshood. 118,124 and 1274 is not a multiple of 19. God be
glorified above all that they describe.

In verse 9129 is the command that God is enuff for me, there is no god but He, in Him I put my trust, and He is the Lord of the
great throne.

The truth has come while falshood has perished. Falshood is always bound to perish.

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597255.msg185900#msg185900

khodr

Dear Anna

Those people who are described by 7146 are fighting against "one of the greatest signs" just to justify the flame and smoke of hell in their imagination. If you wish to educate yourself about the real problem of these ingrates and the incredible divine prophecy, please read the following arguments. Here is a list

Which One Do You See Hell or Miracle?
http//www.19.org/index.php?id=14,175,0,0,1,0

salam edip, all,

sure there are prophecies in the qur'an. the great qur'an does prophesy about the FITNAT19.

ar-Ra`d 013036
1336

the ayat above informs us very clearly that there were/are/will be some people/groups/parties who (will) deny/reject part of the book. let's see if these people can be identified!

at-Taubah 009124
9124

at-Taubah 009125
9125

the above 2 ayat are talking about a group of people who were or are harboring doubts about sura 9 (hathihi) in particular, and those with a sickness in their hearts have increased in their obscenity. they also talk about the believers whose faith have increased.

further more, the great qur'an (in 825) warns the transgressors against a FITNAT that will come specifically for them.
al-Anfal 008025
825

now, isn't you and your group that constantly and repeatedly argue that something is wrong with sura 9 because there is no basmala (per your claim)? it is you, whether you deny it or not. this is also and undeniable fact based on sura 74 which declares very clearly 19 (number itself or counting) to be nothing but a FITNAT for the rejectors/deniers.

and so edip, one can clrarly see who the rejectors of allah's signs are, and those with a disease in their hearts can be well identified.

indeed witnessing such a great prophecy (seeing how the rejectors have been subjected to the FITNAT19) will increase in their faith. praise be to allah for this great prophecy.

sincerely
khodr

Edip_Yuksel

As verse 7431 states, hypocrites and unappreciative people will not understand the implication of 19 after its prophecy is fulfilled. It is a test, which will distinguish those who choose to progress from those who choose to regress.

Currently, I do not have much time to debate with those who reject the great sign and prophecy... In fact, since last 25 years I have debated it with many people; privately or publicly, on TV or Internet, via articles or books...

I read Bahnam's statements about 1974 and I could not understand exactly what he was trying to say. As for me, I have no doubt that the time of discovery is chosen by God and it is a great prophecy

The prophecy of 19 is in chapter 74 and it was fulfilled in 1974! Some people, in order to blind themselves to this and many other great prophecies, might question the origin of 1974, as some people might question the origin of some Arabic words used in the Quran.... But, the following fact remains If God used an arbitrary human language, the language of mushrik Arabs to deliver his message, then the same God could use an arbitrary but popularly used date to show his power over the timing of his prophetic miracle. Period.

For Ayman and his ilk, I would like to re-remind the following verse 7146

Peace,
Edip

khodr

As verse 7431 states, hypocrites and unappreciative people will not understand the implication of 19 after its prophecy is fulfilled. It is a test, which will distinguish those who choose to progress from those who choose to regress.

Currently, I do not have much time to debate with those who reject the great sign and prophecy... In fact, since last 25 years I have debated it with many people; privately or publicly, on TV or Internet, via articles or books...

I read Bahnam's statements about 1974 and I could not understand exactly what he was trying to say. As for me, I have no doubt that the time of discovery is chosen by God and it is a great prophecy

The prophecy of 19 is in chapter 74 and it was fulfilled in 1974! Some people, in order to blind themselves to this and many other great prophecies, might question the origin of 1974, as some people might question the origin of some Arabic words used in the Quran.... But, the following fact remains If God used an arbitrary human language, the language of mushrik Arabs to deliver his message, then the same God could use an arbitrary but popularly used date to show his power over the timing of his prophetic miracle. Period.

For Ayman and his ilk, I would like to re-remind the following verse 7146

Peace,
Edip

mr. edip,

debate, cyber boxing match, brawl.... etc. not interested.

what i am interested in is speak the truth.

as for reminding me of 7146, i accept the ayat and i put my trust in allah to judge me whether or not i am a mutakbbir.
i find peace of mind in that and in the book of allah including the follwing ayat

al-Baqarah 002002
22

al-Imran 003003
33

al-Imran 003007
37

ash-Shura 042014
4214

Fussilat 041052
4152

ar-Ra`d 013036
1336

at-Taubah (Repentance) 9124
9124

at-Taubah (Repentance) 9125
9125

al-Imran (The Family of Imran, The House of Imran) 3119
3119

al-Hijr 015009
159

Fussilat 041042
4142

you know mr. edip, the primary difference between us is that one person puts his faith and trust for salavation in #19, while the other puts his trust in allah and believes in the whole book.

sincerely
khodr

jonny_k

Peace bro "ayman",
Again lets say all the initial counts are arbitary and/or wrong except we found the two chapters which contained the letter "qaf" in their initials, namely chapter hamim ain sin qaaf and chapter qaf both contain the letters "qaaf" 57 times DESPITE ONE CHPTER BEING ALMOST TWICE AS LONG AS THE OTHE and 57+57=114 and 114 being the chappters in the Quran and Q being the first letter of the word Quran. Even if we had not found any other significant ZMNs with other initials would this alone not be significant at all? GOD Bless!

darcus

Peace everyone.

Whilst I like a good debate, I don't think that this can productively go anywhere. Surely we need to agree to disagree on this subject and move on to more important things. By one person proving a point over another, are we helping the human cause in any way? Sure, it's the understanding of the quran, but all this energy could be put into more useful pursuits. The basics about salat we haven't reached a concensus on yet. The world energy crisis is getting worse day by day, yet we spend time persuing these debates which don't do anything.

I may be out of turn, for that my apologies. But please people, let's agree to disagree and move on...

d