Who are the people of the book?
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Peace MTR,
Its Allah who 'writes' upon the heart of the Believer and the Messengers influence the character and behavior of those who follow them, which this character and behavior is exemplified and defined in the Tawrat & Injeel
Sorry, no 'written scriptures' in Sura 7.157
Not trying to barge in or anything, but how are you drawing the conclusion that no written scriptures are mentioned in 7157?
"Follow the messenger, the gentile prophet, whom they find written in their Torah and Gospel. He exhorts them to be righteous, enjoins them from evil, allows for them all good food, and prohibits that which is bad, and unloads the burdens and the shackles imposed upon them. Those who believe in him, respect him, support him, and follow the light that came with him are the successful ones." (7157)
Both the Torah and the Gospel are WRITTEN SCRIPTURES, so of course 7157 mentions written scriptures. If you think they're not actually written scriptures, then how does the Quran (ANOTHER WRITTEN SCRIPTURE) confirm them?
The example of those who were given the Torah, then failed to uphold it, is like the donkey carrying great works of literature. Miserable indeed is the example of people who rejected God's revelations. God does not guide the wicked people. (625)
Peace,
Ahmad
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Peace MTR,
Not trying to barge in or anything, but how are you drawing the conclusion that no written scriptures are mentioned in 7157?
"Follow the messenger, the gentile prophet, whom they find written in their Torah and Gospel. He exhorts them to be righteous, enjoins them from evil, allows for them all good food, and prohibits that which is bad, and unloads the burdens and the shackles imposed upon them. Those who believe in him, respect him, support him, and follow the light that came with him are the successful ones." (7157)
Both the Torah and the Gospel are WRITTEN SCRIPTURES, so of course 7157 mentions written scriptures. If you think they're not actually written scriptures, then how does the Quran (ANOTHER WRITTEN SCRIPTURE) confirm them?
The example of those who were given the Torah, then failed to uphold it, is like the donkey carrying great works of literature. Miserable indeed is the example of people who rejected God's revelations. God does not guide the wicked people. (625)
Peace,
Ahmad
Assalaam Alaikum @Ahmad
Please read the thread. Secondly, I do NOT argue about English translations. 'Torah' is NOT Tawrat, Injel is NOT Bible
Sura 7.157 does NOT say anything or imply ANY 'previous scriptures'
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Assalaam Alaikum @Ahmad
Please read the thread. Secondly, I do NOT argue about English translations. 'Torah' is NOT Tawrat, Injel is NOT Bible
Sura 7.157 does NOT say anything or imply ANY 'previous scriptures'
Peace MTR
I still await your PROPER translation of 7157 or even my newspaper phrase... And we will be fixed insha Allah....
Regards
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Peace MTR,
Please read the thread. Secondly, I do NOT argue about English translations. 'Torah' is NOT Tawrat, Injel is NOT Bible
Sura 7.157 does NOT say anything or imply ANY 'previous scriptures'
After reading through most of the thread, it seems like you're confusing certain basic facts. For starters, "Torah" is not an English translation of "Tawrah", they are the same thing. The dialect and pronounciation is slightly different, but other than that, they are the same object. The "Injeel" is the message that was revealed to Esa (Jesus) to confirm the "Tawrah" (Torah). Both of them are books that were revealed and written, just like the Quran was revealed and written... Also, the Quran doesn't say the Torah was revealed to Moses; Moses and Aaron were sent the statute book. According to the Quran, all the prophets before Jesus received the Torah, and the statute book sent to Moses and Aaron is INCLUDED in that "Tawrah".
7157 clearly speaks about the previous scriptures, which is why the word "written/described or recorded in writing" is used.
Peace,
Ahmad
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Peace MTR,
After reading through most of the thread, it seems like you're confusing certain basic facts. For starters, "Torah" is not an English translation of "Tawrah", they are the same thing. The dialect and pronounciation is slightly different, but other than that, they are the same object. The "Injeel" is the message that was revealed to Esa (Jesus) to confirm the "Tawrah" (Torah). Both of them are books that were revealed and written, just like the Quran was revealed and written... Also, the Quran doesn't say the Torah was revealed to Moses; Moses and Aaron were sent the statute book. According to the Quran, all the prophets before Jesus received the Torah, and the statute book sent to Moses and Aaron is INCLUDED in that "Tawrah".
7157 clearly speaks about the previous scriptures, which is why the word "written/described or recorded in writing" is used.
Peace,
Ahmad
Its seems you may have 'read' the thread, but you failed to consider the facts.
Torah is a Hebrew word meaning 'instruction'
The word "Torah" in Hebrew "is derived from the root which in the hifil conjugation means "to teach" (cf. Lev. 1011). The meaning of the word is therefore "teaching," "doctrine," or "instruction"; the commonly accepted "law" gives a wrong impression."
Rabinowitz, Louis Isaac and Harvey, Warren. "Torah." Encyclopaedia Judaica. Ed
The term "Torah" is therefore also used in the general sense to include both Judaism's written law and oral law, serving to encompass the entire spectrum of authoritative Jewish religious teachings throughout history, including the Mishnah, the Talmud, the Midrash and more, and the inaccurate rendering of "Torah" as "Law" may be an obstacle to "understanding the ideal that is summed up in the term talmud torah ( , "study of Torah,", characterized in Jewish tradition as excelling all things."
pp.164-165, Scherman, Exodus 1249Tawrat is a Arabic term meaning 'Law'
Secondly Allah states that the Tawrat was revealed NOT written
Thirdly the Bile says that Moses was given Torah and Jesus was given Injiil
Yet the Quran says the Tawrat and Injill was revealed BEFORE Muusa and Essa
It is He Who sent down to you (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what is between your two hands / musaddiqan li ma bayna yadayhi; and He sent down the Law and the Injeel
(revealed) FROM BEFORE, as a guidance to mankind / min qablu hudan lilnnasi, and it is He who has revealed / anzala the standard by which to discern the true from the false / Al-Furqan. Behold, as for those who are bent on denying God's signs / kafaroo bi ayati Allahi - grievous suffering awaits them for God is almighty, an avenger of evil.
Lastly, You may have noticed in the most receent posts, that it was quite clear that 7.157 does NOT state or imply that there were 'previous scriptures' 'written'.
Allatheena yattabiAAoona alrrasoola alnnabiyya al-ommiyya allathee yajidoonahu maktooban A'inda-hum fee alttawrati waal-injeeli
I dont argue about english translations, If you have an argument, please support your argument from the grammar and language of the Quran.
Salaam Alaikum
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Its seems you may have 'read' the thread, but you failed to consider the facts.
Torah is a Hebrew word meaning 'instruction'
The word "Torah" in Hebrew "is derived from the root which in the hifil conjugation means "to teach" (cf. Lev. 1011). The meaning of the word is therefore "teaching," "doctrine," or "instruction"; the commonly accepted "law" gives a wrong impression."
Rabinowitz, Louis Isaac and Harvey, Warren. "Torah." Encyclopaedia Judaica. Ed
The term "Torah" is therefore also used in the general sense to include both Judaism's written law and oral law, serving to encompass the entire spectrum of authoritative Jewish religious teachings throughout history, including the Mishnah, the Talmud, the Midrash and more, and the inaccurate rendering of "Torah" as "Law" may be an obstacle to "understanding the ideal that is summed up in the term talmud torah ( , "study of Torah,", characterized in Jewish tradition as excelling all things."
pp.164-165, Scherman, Exodus 1249Tawrat is a Arabic term meaning 'Law'
Secondly Allah states that the Tawrat was revealed NOT written
Thirdly the Bile says that Moses was given Torah and Jesus was given Injiil
Yet the Quran says the Tawrat and Injill was revealed BEFORE Muusa and Essa
It is He Who sent down to you (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what is between your two hands / musaddiqan li ma bayna yadayhi; and He sent down the Law and the Injeel
(revealed) FROM BEFORE, as a guidance to mankind / min qablu hudan lilnnasi, and it is He who has revealed / anzala the standard by which to discern the true from the false / Al-Furqan. Behold, as for those who are bent on denying God's signs / kafaroo bi ayati Allahi - grievous suffering awaits them for God is almighty, an avenger of evil.
Lastly, You may have noticed in the most receent posts, that it was quite clear that 7.157 does NOT state or imply that there were 'previous scriptures' 'written'.
Allatheena yattabiAAoona alrrasoola alnnabiyya al-ommiyya allathee yajidoonahu maktooban A'inda-hum fee alttawrati waal-injeeli
I dont argue about english translations, If you have an argument, please support your argument from the grammar and language of the Quran.
Salaam Alaikum
Peace
Who is asking you to argue english translations... We are just asking you to provide your own translation of the 7157... not a word by word analysis... but translate the verse itself... will you? Since you seem to be very good at arabic grammar, you will be able to translate this verse without problem... And the case will be solved...
When you say something is bad... you do not just end it there... but YOU PROVIDE the corrected version... So please do...
NOTE The argument is not about Torah being revealed before or after Moses, or the meaning of the word Torah... The argument is WHETHER THESE SCRIPTURES WERE WRITTEN DOWN OR NOT... So stop taking the roundabout each time...
Thank you
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Peace MTR,
This is a ridiculous debate. Your ideologies are completely misguided...
Torah is a Hebrew word meaning 'instruction'
The word "Torah" in Hebrew "is derived from the root which in the hifil conjugation means "to teach" (cf. Lev. 1011). The meaning of the word is therefore "teaching," "doctrine," or "instruction"; the commonly accepted "law" gives a wrong impression."
Rabinowitz, Louis Isaac and Harvey, Warren. "Torah." Encyclopaedia Judaica. Ed
The term "Torah" is therefore also used in the general sense to include both Judaism's written law and oral law, serving to encompass the entire spectrum of authoritative Jewish religious teachings throughout history, including the Mishnah, the Talmud, the Midrash and more, and the inaccurate rendering of "Torah" as "Law" may be an obstacle to "understanding the ideal that is summed up in the term talmud torah ( , "study of Torah,", characterized in Jewish tradition as excelling all things."
pp.164-165, Scherman, Exodus 1249This is what I said in the beginning. However, based on the Quran, the "Torah/Tawrah" is referring to the revelations to all the Jewish prophets, and this includes the book of Moses and Aaron (the statute book).
Tawrat is a Arabic term meaning 'Law'
I don't know where you're getting these definitions, but they're completely wrong. The Hebrew word "TORAH" is referring to something hidden or concealed, and many view it as the Law of Moses, but ACCORDING TO THE QURAN, the Torah was a compilation of the Hebrew scriptures, and the statute book ("Law of Moses" is a part of this scripture, not the whole thing. The "Torah" and the "Tawrat" are the same thing... And maybe you should consult a dictionary before you conclude the false statement that "tawrat" is an Arabic word meaning "Law"...
Secondly Allah states that the Tawrat was revealed NOT written
Thirdly the Bile says that Moses was given Torah and Jesus was given Injiil
Yet the Quran says the Tawrat and Injill was revealed BEFORE Muusa and Essa
This is ridiculous. Nowhere in the Quran will you find that the entire Tawrat was revealed to Moses, and you won't find anywhere that says that the Torah and Injeel were revealed prior to Moses and Jesus. If there are, then post them.
Lastly, You may have noticed in the most receent posts, that it was quite clear that 7.157 does NOT state or imply that there were 'previous scriptures' 'written'.
I dont argue about english translations, If you have an argument, please support your argument from the grammar and language of the Quran.
This is especially ridiculous, and it's being demonstrated throughout the thread. I'm starting to think you're really doing this on purpose, instead of just lacking knowledge, like you are deliberately trying to cause confusion... It is VERY CLEAR what 7157 is talking about. You're claiming it says something different, yet you won't post what you believe it really says, forming a circular argument that's really wasting everyone's time. If you're going to form an alternate meaning about the verse, then speak on it; if you won't say it, though, at least allow others to form a true, basic, reasonable to the scripture - it is directly speaking about previous scriptures...
Peace,
Ahmad
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Assalaam Alaikum Ahmad
Again, I personally dont argue from the position of english translations. I have supported my position from the Quran and the language of the Quran, thats it, thats all.
Im NOT going to support your argument with the Quran. Thus I would suggest you review the thread and address the ayahs from the position of the grammar and language of the Quran, then we can talk.
Here is the reference you claimed did NOT exist
Sura Al-Imran identifies The Family of Imran
Allah did choose Adam and Noah, the family of Abraham, and the family of 'Imran above all people,-
It is He Who sent down to you (step by step), in truth, The Book / Al-Kitab, confirming what is between your two hands / musaddiqan li ma bayna yadayhi; and He sent down the Law and the Injeel
(revealed) FROM BEFORE, as a guidance to mankind / min qablu hudan lilnnasi, and it is He who has revealed / anzala the standard by which to discern the true from the false / Al-Furqan. Behold, as for those who are bent on denying God's signs / kafaroo bi ayati Allahi - grievous suffering awaits them for God is almighty, an avenger of evil.
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Peace MTR,
Here is the reference you claimed did NOT exist
Sura Al-Imran identifies The Family of Imran
Allah did choose Adam and Noah, the family of Abraham, and the family of 'Imran above all people,-
It is He Who sent down to you (step by step), in truth, The Book / Al-Kitab, confirming what is between your two hands / musaddiqan li ma bayna yadayhi; and He sent down the Law and the Injeel
(revealed) FROM BEFORE, as a guidance to mankind / min qablu hudan lilnnasi, and it is He who has revealed / anzala the standard by which to discern the true from the false / Al-Furqan. Behold, as for those who are bent on denying God's signs / kafaroo bi ayati Allahi - grievous suffering awaits them for God is almighty, an avenger of evil.
That is your proof?
Those scriptures are talking about completely different time periods.
He sent down to you this scripture, truthfully, confirming all previous scriptures, and He sent down the Torah and the Gospel before that, to guide the people, and He sent down the statute book. Those who disbelieve in GOD's revelations incur severe retribution. GOD is Almighty, Avenger. (33, 4)
It's clear that the "BEFORE THAT" portion of it is speaking about the first part (i.e. BEFORE "He sent down to you this scripture", the Quran). How did God send the Torah down to men BEFORE ADAM when Adam was the first man?
Peace,
Ahmad
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Again, Im NOT going to argue with you about or with english translations. In the arabic there is no phrase, word or sentence structure that states, implies or suggests 'previous scriptures'.
If I may suggest again, please review the thread and get a cursory understanding of the language of that ayah, then lets talk.
I made it very clear.
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Again, Im NOT going to argue with you about or with english translations. In the arabic there is no phrase, word or sentence structure that states, implies or suggests 'previous scriptures'.
If I may suggest again, please review the thread and get a cursory understanding of the language of that ayah, then lets talk.
I made it very clear.
Peace...
I want to let you know that I am still waiting for your translation of the 7157... Or the verse simply cannot be translated into english according to you?? I am fed up of arguing with you... However, since we are all wrong and you are the one who is right... then translate the verse for us so that we can understand... I am also waiting you to correct my simple 'newspaper' sentence... especially regarding the HAAL usage... and to apply your highly professional grammatical rules to it... Here is the sentence again...
I found the news written in the newspapers -> Wajad tou Al akhbaara MAKTOOBAN fil jareedah
According to you and your grammar that you have been promoting, this phrase is not correct... However, a real teacher does not only tell his students that something is wrong... BUT he also show them the corrected version for them to learn... So please please please... correct this phrase for me brother.... In my phrase I have 'maktooban fil jareedah' while in the verse we have 'maktooban fit tawraati wal injeel' .... After you correct this easy and simple sentence, we can apply same rules to the verse 7157 and the case will be solved... If you prove that you are right, and that is the truth... then we are prepared to accept it....
Do not come and argue that Quranic arabic is different from our current arabic because Quranic Arabic is the STANDARD of arabic language and arabic grammar is derived from the Quraan... The Quranic arabic is called FOUSS-HA Arabic... All arab countries have their arabic slang which they use, but standard arabic is quranic arabic and if you master the standard arabic, you will be able to work/live in any arab country easily...
So prove yourself if you are truthful....
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Salaam,
Tradionally we understood that this refers to jews and Christains but then it should have said "People of the books"
My question is, without referring to hadiths; who are people of the book?peace
faridaEhl-ul-kitaab are Followers of the Book, where the Book is genus and can be any book or books. This is different from El-ledhiine oot-ul-kitaab (Those given the Book), cause they were given the Book from Allah (ie. Tewraat, Injeel, Qur'an). These Ehl-ul-kitaab could be called in English "bookish" (I think), since they're getting their knowledge from the Book. They're wrongly identified as Pharisees, as they are the Scribes. In the Qur'an they're some of the Jews and some of the Christians.
One could say that the followers of the Qur'an are also Ehl-ul-kitaab, and that can be the case, but not the rule, even they're rather el-ledhiine oot-ul-kitaab. Ehl-ul-kitaab are only those who strictly follows the Book, no matter what. This should be no case for the Muslims, since we can use a convention (fully agree on something), we can think and make own decisions.
The main issue with these people is that they have a rule on everything, so they cannot go by their own. This was done by their own writing of the Book they follow, and changing existing ones, no matter if these are from Allah or not. So called Hadeeth followers are of these people, those who think that Books arrange their lives in any matter. For example, I was listening a "scholar" saying that there's a rule even for a haircut of the people.
Allah set His boundaries (Hudood), but left us a very huge area of freedom, where we can express ourselves. Ehl-ul-kitaab are not from some religion nor followers of some particular books, they're just people who strictly follow the rules from some books arranging their lives fully by them.