Number of wives?
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I guess you think a husband, who thinks his only role in family life is that of a sperm donor and vibrator, is really attractive to women? nope
ELDORADO, Texas ? The scared girl, already a mother at 16, whispered into a cell phone she wanted out. She'd been forced to marry a man more than three times her age, becoming his seventh wife.
Her husband sexually assaulted her, and when he was angry, he would beat her while other women held her infant, she told a family violence shelter in a series of secret calls that triggered an investigation of the polygamist sect here.
The girl had looked for opportunities to escape before, but she was warned that outside the double-gates blocking entry to the Yearning For Zion Ranch, in a world completely foreign to her, she would be forced to cut her hair and wear makeup, and to have sex with many men ? all damning transgressions in a faith where modesty calls for women to wear long underwear year-round under pioneer-style dresses
But child welfare officials allege in court documents released Tuesday that the compound built by leaders of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints was rife with sexual abuse, with girls spiritually married to much older men as soon as they reached puberty and boys groomed to perpetuate the cycle.The documents detail the hushed phone calls, but days after raiding the West Texas compound, officials still aren't sure where the girl is. She is not named among the children in initial custody petitions by the state.
Texas authorities have legal custody of 416 children, all of those believed to have lived at the ranch, Child Protective Services spokeswoman Marleigh Meisner told reporters in San Angelo, about 40 miles from the compound in Eldorado.
Court documents said a number of teen girls at the 1,700-acre compound were pregnant, and all the children were removed on the grounds that they were in danger of "emotional, physical, and-or sexual abuse." Nearly 140 women left on their own.
"Investigators determined that there is a widespread pattern and practice of the (YFZ) Ranch in which young, minor female residents are conditioned to expect and accept sexual activity with adult men at the ranch upon being spiritually married to them," read the affidavit signed by Lynn McFadden, a Department of Family and Protective Services investigative supervisor.
McFadden said the girls were spiritually married to the men as soon as they reached puberty and were required to bear children. A spiritual marriage is one recognized by the FLDS church, but lacking a state marriage license. Texas law prohibits polygamy and the marriage of girls under 16.
Attorneys for the church and church leaders have filed motions asking a judge to quash the search on constitutional grounds, saying state authorities didn't have enough evidence and that the warrants were too broad. A hearing on their motion was scheduled for Wednesday in San Angelo.
Church lawyer Patrick Peranteau did not immediately return a phone message seeking comment Tuesday.
An unknown number of men and women were at the ranch while authorities completed the search of the gleaming 80-foot-high temple, a cheese-making plant, a cement plant, a school, a doctor's office and housing units. Tela Mange, a spokeswoman for the Department of Public Safety, said Tuesday the adults were not being held, but if they left the compound, they could not return while the search continued.
At least two FBI agents were seen entering the back entrance of the temple on Tuesday.
Spokesmen for the FBI and DPS declined comment.
The compound was raided Thursday after the girl called a local family violence shelter March 29 and 30, using someone else's cell phone and speaking quietly to avoid being overheard, McFadden's affidavit said.
The girl said she was not allowed to leave the compound unless she was ill. She told the shelter that her husband would "beat and hurt" her when he got angry, hitting her in the chest and choking her while another woman in the house held her baby. Once, he broke her ribs, she said.
The girl also said her husband sexually assaulted her, and that she was several weeks pregnant. The girl told the shelter her husband went to "the outsiders' world" but she didn't know where.
The girl's husband was not identified in the court documents released Tuesday. But authorities have issued an arrest warrant for church member Dale Barlow, a 50-year-old believed to be in Arizona.
Authorities were looking for documents, family photos or even a family Bible with lists of marriages and children to determine whether the girl was married to Barlow, who was sentenced to jail last year after pleading no contest to conspiracy to commit sexual conduct with a minor. He was ordered to register as a sex offender for three years while he is on probation.
Authorities were trying to determine the identities and parentage of many of the children; some were unwilling or unable to provide the names of their biological parents or identified multiple mothers.
The boys were groomed to be ready to marry underage girls upon adulthood and engage in sexual activity, resulting in them becoming new "perpetrators," the affidavit said.
Children in the sect were deprived of food and forced to sit in closed closets as a form of discipline, a warrant said.
An FLDS member now living in the Texas Panhandle, Samuel Fischer, objected to the raid.
"It's religious persecution," said Fischer, who moved to a ranch near Lockney with his two wives and 12 of his children from Hildale, Utah, last year.
The Texas investigation is the state's first of FLDS members, but prosecutors in Utah and Arizona have pursued several church members in recent years, including sect leader Warren Jeffs, who is serving two consecutive sentences of five years to life for being an accomplice to the rape of a 14-year-old wed to her cousin in Utah. He awaits trial on other charges in Arizona.
Authorities investigating the Eldorado compound have described FLDS members as cooperative, but the house-by-house search of the temple, factories and living quarters has led to some trouble.
On Monday, 41-year-old Leroy Johnson Steed was arrested on charges of felony tampering with evidence ? a day after 19-year-old Levi Barlow Jeffs was arrested on misdemeanor charges of interfering with the duties of a public servant, said DPS spokesman Tom Vinger.
He declined to give details on the arrests or how Levi Barlow Jeffs might be related to the FLDS leader.
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A 17-year-old Pakistani girl forced to marry a 45-year-old when she was only nine was reportedly killed by her parents, according to the Weekend Australian.
The murder has intensified despair among human rights workers in Pakistan over a recent spate of "honor killings," in which two women and three teenage school girls were buried alive in Baluchistan Province because they wanted to marry the men of their choice.
Saira Nusrat Bibi was successfully fighting a legal battle to have her marriage annulled. As she left court in the Punjabi city of Sahiwal, she was surrounded by a group of men reportedly sent by her parents, and shot in front of police, The Australian reported.
The Baluchistan case was worsened by an attempt by a member of the country's national parliament, Senator Israr Ullah Zehri, to defend it, telling colleagues that "these are centuries-old traditions and I will continue to defend them,?
http//www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,24302102-401,00.html
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A 17-year-old Pakistani girl forced to marry a 45-year-old when she was only nine was reportedly killed by her parents, according to the Weekend Australian.
The murder has intensified despair among human rights workers in Pakistan over a recent spate of "honor killings," in which two women and three teenage school girls were buried alive in Baluchistan Province because they wanted to marry the men of their choice.
Saira Nusrat Bibi was successfully fighting a legal battle to have her marriage annulled. As she left court in the Punjabi city of Sahiwal, she was surrounded by a group of men reportedly sent by her parents, and shot in front of police, The Australian reported.
The Baluchistan case was worsened by an attempt by a member of the country's national parliament, Senator Israr Ullah Zehri, to defend it, telling colleagues that "these are centuries-old traditions and I will continue to defend them,?
http//www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,24302102-401,00.html
People there seems to know nothing about humanity. It get worse and worse, I feel disgusted yuck >(
Maria
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The documents detail the hushed phone calls, but days after raiding the West Texas compound, officials still aren't sure where the girl is. She is not named among the children in initial custody petitions by the state.
Texas authorities have legal custody of 416 children, all of those believed to have lived at the ranch, Child Protective Services spokeswoman Marleigh Meisner told reporters in San Angelo, about 40 miles from the compound in Eldorado.
Court documents said a number of teen girls at the 1,700-acre compound were pregnant, and all the children were removed on the grounds that they were in danger of "emotional, physical, and-or sexual abuse." Nearly 140 women left on their own.
A phone call from a girl that probably doesn't even exist, gives rights to authorities taking an entire communities children. Well at least they know who owns them.
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I have only recently gotten divorced from a 6 year marriage. Reason for divorce. I could not provide my wife's financial needs.
Peace, wow financial needs, where do you live?
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I remembered in India there is tribe i forget the name, they have a tradition the women are the head of family and bread winner they marry 4 men and the men stay at home and do the cooking cleaning etc.
Thats what monogyny brings Polyandry, the exploitation of women. That is what you monogynists are promoting here. Thats why you are smiling while you tell everyone about it.
So is that from God are that is their culture. hmm
It is not from God because it is not supported in the Quran. It is from people like you.
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Are you sugesting poligamy for women hmm
;DVery funny, right? You are among those suggesting polygamy for women. Grinning wile you're at it.
No. I am not suggesting anything at all and I do not think any woman deserves being punished with extra husbands. In most cases one is punishment enough. And if in fact she has got that most precious and rare wonder of a good husband, most definitely she won't want to dilute it adding anything less than that, nor deprive other women of the same possibility if she happened to come across more than one of that rare species.
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So you are saying that good husbands are rare but good wives are in abundance?
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What if she does not come across more than one of "that rare species"? Should she share him with other women lawfully, or should she deprive them of him?
No, I am not a cruel person nor a women hater, therefore I would never advocate more than one husband.
That depends on what your views on polygyny are. If you advocate monogyny, then you also advocate polyandry. Because when polygyny is replaced by monogyny, it leads towards the exploitation of women who are unable to get married, it leads towards polyandry/prostitution.
You cannot advocate monogyny without advocating polyandry/prostitution.
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That depends on what your views on polygyny are. If you advocate monogyny, then you also advocate polyandry. Because when polygyny is replaced by monogyny, it leads towards the exploitation of women who are unable to get married, it leads towards polyandry/prostitution.
You cannot advocate monogyny without advocating polyandry/prostitution.
Peace Fahad,
Well, that means something like 1+1=3...or more
As to the statement of your last sentence ... i do not believe that polygamy reduces prostitution... you know there are women that know how to gain a living without opening their legs for it AND a woman doing just that, as long as she's not being paid for it, is IMO not a prostitute.
And what about male prostitution ?lk
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Yes, women should be free to choose. I wasn't arguing forced marriage or rape. They are one and the same.
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Women have more men to choose from in a polygynous society where married men, who would otherwise be off-limits, are also available. Don't you think?
No, because if she has to share a man, she's only getting half a man, and the existing wife loses half a man. Neither of them have a real husband.
Liquiddharma,
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What do you mean "no"? Is the "no" about the first point I made or the second? Or do you think I am wrong about both.
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Where do you get the idea about how a real husband is suppossed to be? What is your criterion/furqan?
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Is one women getting "half a man/husband" better than the other women getting no husband at all?
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When do you plan on responding to my response to you here http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597268.msg183254#msg183254 ?
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No, because if she has to share a man, she's only getting half a man, and the existing wife loses half a man. Neither of them have a real husband.
Liguiddharma,
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What do you mean "no"? Is the "no" about the first point I made or the second? Or do you think I am wrong about both.
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Where do you get the idea about how a real husband is suppossed to be? What is your criterion/furqan?
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Is one women getting "half a man/husband" better than the other women getting no husband at all?
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When do you plan on responding to my response to you here http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597268.msg183254#msg183254 ?
salam,
i agree with you a 100% in everything you say. and you are absolutley right.
but i must be completely honest with you after everythng i have been through from men wether it be my ex his brothers my father or brothers. if god sent me a man from heaven........i am really hating on all men, and for any women who think that they are above gods law, all lovi dovi with there husbands they can have them,i would rathere live alone for the rest of my life, then have any man of today be my husband, for the very reason is that they have no idea what god is, one either follows religion completely or not at all. > > brickwall -
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salam,
i agree with you a 100% in everything you say. and you are absolutley right.
but i must be completely honest with you after everythng i have been through from men wether it be my ex his brothers my father or brothers. if god sent me a man from heaven........i am really hating on all men, and for any women who think that they are above gods law, all lovi dovi with there husbands they can have them,i would rathere live alone for the rest of my life, then have any man of today be my husband, for the very reason is that they have no idea what god is, one either follows religion completely or not at all. >( >( brickwallPeace Anna,
Take it easy sister!!!
Maria
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Quote from Fahad
No one is forcing those women to get married. If they do not think it is worth it, they wouldn't have gotten married in the first place. Plus, the big number of women left unmarried in a monogamous world, will be more frustrated because they will have no sexual satisfaction at all, except through unlawful means.Yeah, greedy men taking care of multiple women, providing them with family and children! Those women would have been better off prostituting themselves, right? Isn't that what you want?
Again i will ask you to do some research leave your living room and check for yourself those men who have multiple wives whether he is treating all his wives equally or he just care for the last one and others are left on their own and frustrated.
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Do you really mean equally? One's treatment can be equal and unjust/incorrect at the same time. Have you thought about that? Therefore equal treatment is not what is necessary, but correct treatment.
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Cannot a monogynous man treat his wife unjustly/incorrectly? If so, why single out the polygynous one?
And have you checked whether they have married that man willfully or they are forced to marry him.
Did you yourself first check whether all monogynous marriages in the world are forced or consensual?
You said no one is forcing those women to get married .
Because, and I have already told you twice, that I was not talking about forced marriages but consensual ones. I don't regard "forced marriage" as a marriage.
Yes and if they marry someone on their free well then they are condemn to death,
Even in a monogamous marriage. Therefore it does not prove anything against polygyny.
Just see here if you have a human heart two days back what happened just right under your nose
http//www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2008\11\07\story_7-11-2008_pg7_15http//www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-16112467.html
I know you will say this has nothing to do with your question because you are brought up in a society who considers women as sex object they are tortured and killed if they ask for their rights.
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Yes I will say that. So please just tell me what it has got to do with the topic of polygyny? Because that couple was monogamous.
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Why won't you use this news item against monogamy?
Am I wrong that the big number of women left unmarried in a monogamous world will be more frustrated because they will have no sexual satisfaction at all, except through unlawful means?
Am I wrong that every woman has a right to have a husband and children?
Tell me.
Oh so would you please tell us that those women who are left unmarried in your kingdom due to shortage of men or the curse of dowry which you brought with you when you converted from Hinduism.
And by the way you are paying the dowry or ajar or the girl if she is poor she has to remain unmarried forever and pushed to prostitution.Is there any reason in the world that can prove me wrong in my two questions above? Did you even understand the questions? Can you rephrase them in your own words so that I am sure that you understood what I meant?
You haven't answered any of my questions. You can't defend a thing you say.
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salam,
i agree with you a 100% in everything you say. and you are absolutley right.Wa salaam. Thanks.
but i must be completely honest with you after everythng i have been through from men wether it be my ex his brothers my father or brothers. if god sent me a man from heaven........i am really hating on all men, and for any women who think that they are above gods law, all lovi dovi with there husbands they can have them,i would rathere live alone for the rest of my life, then have any man of today be my husband, for the very reason is that they have no idea what god is, one either follows religion completely or not at all. >( >( brickwall
I am sure there are many men who think the same way about women. But you know that they are not right about women, the same way you are not right about men.
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......, for the very reason is that they have no idea what god is, one either follows religion completely or not at all. >( >( brickwall
Salaam Anna
I agree with you absolutely! If men want more than one wife then give the wives their due rights and support and be there for them. If you can not deal justly with them then only one (not exact quote) AND dealing justly is not easy it's TOUGH!
A) Nowadays "Muslim" men find it diffiult to support even one wife. Most women are expected to, not only raise the children but also to bring home an income and look after the house too. On top of that no man is seriouly interested in taking on another headache as wife but just wants to use and abuse women who come handy as a mistress or a girlfriend.
Most " Muslim" men only think of taking more wives when their heart is set on a woman but they have no regard for the many women who have lost both their husband and their home in the midst of disasters/war, like in Iraq where you see women left to struggle on their own.
B) Many "Muslim" wives on the other hand suspect that their husbands are having fun outside marriage, but the idea of their husband taking another wife is abhorrent to them. In other words they are themselves making it easy for men to have affairs as taking another wife is no piece of cake.
C) The other " Muslim" woman, if she insists on her right to be taken as a wife then, clearly she is not cheaply available for fun only but the other woman, once she sees that the man is in love with her, expects him to break up his family rather than to share him as a husband. She would rather see him have an affair than to be generous enough to share love.
Finally I reiterate that I don?t find polygyny unfair to women as you are not allowed to inherit women by force nor are you allowed to take a woman for granted. In fact, if properly understood, it is to safeguard women against abuse. It would stop men from deceiving their wives and abusing other women behind the shield of monogamy but, sadly not many Muslim men understand the logic behind Polygyny and one forum member, who considers himself to be ?The voice of God? did not acknowledge the responsibilities associated with taking a wife but is, I believe, the whisper of a very different Potentate. He wrote
?If the gentleman had married one woman, went on to marry another woman, then married a third woman, all three without giving any one of them a talaq, this gentleman is well within the hudood, he has a right accorded to him by Allah to have more than one wife. To speak ill of his conduct is gheebat, his conduct is that of a momin.? ( >( brickwall -
No, because if she has to share a man, she's only getting half a man, and the existing wife loses half a man. Neither of them have a real husband.
Liquiddharma,
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What do you mean "no"? Is the "no" about the first point I made or the second? Or do you think I am wrong about both.
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Where do you get the idea about how a real husband is suppossed to be? What is your criterion/furqan?
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Is one women getting "half a man/husband" better than the other women getting no husband at all?
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When do you plan on responding to my response to you here http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597268.msg183254#msg183254 ?
I assure you, "No" was a response to your second point, because only your second point was a question.
I get the idea of what a husband is meant to be from human nature. A husband has one brain and one penis. Both are required to bond with his wife, both physically and psychologically. Human beings are monogamous mammals, chemically speaking.
http//nationalzoo.si.edu/Publications/ZooGoer/2004/3/monogamy.cfm
Is half a husband better than no husband? I don't think there is much difference morally between multiple wives and multiple husbands. Men and women are not so different. Both are undesirable and both lead to mistrust, exploitation and unhappiness. As I said, when the new wife gains half a husband, the old wife loses half a husband. So instead of having one functioning family, you have two broken families.
I think one functioning family is better than two broken families. But this is a false dichotomy. It is not the case that there are a shortage of men in the world. What is required is for husband a wife to work properly as a team, not to have more children than they can afford to look after, and both to use their skills and talents to keep the family unit working.
Instead of the rich man being a greedy pig, hoarding his wealth in a poor society and marrying all the young girls, he should instead invest his money in the community and create jobs, employ the jobless men so they can earn money and afford to marry the single women. Only backward, ignorant and greedy societies need to use polygamy because they are too corrupt to provide young men with work.
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I assure you, "No" was a response to your second point, because only your second point was a question.
I get the idea of what a husband is meant to be from human nature. A husband has one brain and one penis. Both are required to bond with his wife, both physically and psychologically. Human beings are monogamous mammals, chemically speaking.
http//nationalzoo.si.edu/Publications/ZooGoer/2004/3/monogamy.cfm
Is half a husband better than no husband? I don't think there is much difference morally between multiple wives and multiple husbands. Men and women are not so different. Both are undesirable and both lead to mistrust, exploitation and unhappiness. As I said, when the new wife gains half a husband, the old wife loses half a husband. So instead of having one functioning family, you have two broken families.
I think one functioning family is better than two broken families. But this is a false dichotomy. It is not the case that there are a shortage of men in the world. What is required is for husband a wife to work properly as a team, not to have more children than they can afford to look after, and both to use their skills and talents to keep the family unit working.
Instead of the rich man being a greedy pig, hoarding his wealth in a poor society and marrying all the young girls, he should instead invest his money in the community and create jobs, employ the jobless men so they can earn money and afford to marry the single women. Only backward, ignorant and greedy societies need to use polygamy because they are too corrupt to provide young men with work.
Humans are not biologically monogomous.