Why do you beleive the Quran to be the Word of GOD?
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Peace "aalmakto",
JK- This method if done correctly and NOT EMOTIONALLY is known as exactly the scientific method. If you did not just appeal to your emotions but you infact conducted indepdendent and repeatable research and then used your reason on top of that and hence claim to the conclusion that the Quran is GOD's word then why are you denying that you used SCIENCE AS THE MAJOR PART TO COME TO THE QURAN BEING SPECIAL IN THE 1ST PLACE? GOD Bless!
Peace JK
I guess one of the main issue with why I think it is beyond just "scientific reasoning" is Repeatability. As you know Science is about being able to have someone for example 100 years later doing the same process and achieving the same results. I've tried debating with people using the same reasoning I conducted but literally4126 And those who rejected said ?Do not listen to this Qur?an and talk over it that you may succeed.?
369 And We have placed a barrier in front of them, and a barrier behind them, thus We shielded them so they cannot see.Maybe they lack reasoning? I don't know what causes people to reject the Quran.
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Peace "aalmakto",
Peace JK
I guess one of the main issue with why I think it is beyond just "scientific reasoning" is Repeatability. As you know Science is about being able to have someone for example 100 years later doing the same process and achieving the same results. I've tried debating with people using the same reasoning I conducted but literally4126 And those who rejected said ?Do not listen to this Qur?an and talk over it that you may succeed.?
369 And We have placed a barrier in front of them, and a barrier behind them, thus We shielded them so they cannot see.Maybe they lack reasoning? I don't know what causes people to reject the Quran.
JK- So are you saying that the methods you use to ascertain that the Quran is true are all non repeatable? GOD Bless!
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Peace "aalmakto",
JK- So are you saying that the methods you use to ascertain that the Quran is true are all non repeatable? GOD Bless!
Peace JK,
How can you convey to another person life experience?
2965 When they ride on a ship, they call on God, devoting the system to Him. But as soon as He saves them to the shore, they set up partners.
3131 Have you not seen the ships sailing the sea, carrying God's provisions, to show you some of His signs? In that are signs for every one who is patient, thankful.
3132 And when waves surround them like mountains, they call on God, sincerely devoting the system to Him. But when He saves them to the shore, some of them revert. None discard Our signs except those who are betrayers, unappreciative.2187 And Jonah, when he went off in anger, and he thought that We would not be able to take him. Then he called out in the darkness ?There is no god but You! Glory to You, I was of the wicked!?
Some people may have not experienced disasters where they had to sincerely pray to God. How can I tell another person to call to God for aid and have God respond? That is not repeatable.
Unless a person experienced this themselves the above verses are meaningless. Also
583 And if they hear what was sent down to the messenger you see their eyes flooding with tears, for what they have known as the truth, they say ?Our Lord, we believe, so record us with the witnesses.?
The reaction of people who read it is vastly different. Some people try and follow it, others are averse to it and try and falsify it. What about the people who cry when reading it? Some verses that I convey to people that mean alot to me barely elicit a reaction from them.
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Peace "aalmakto",
Peace JK,
How can you convey to another person life experience?
2965 When they ride on a ship, they call on God, devoting the system to Him. But as soon as He saves them to the shore, they set up partners.
3131 Have you not seen the ships sailing the sea, carrying God's provisions, to show you some of His signs? In that are signs for every one who is patient, thankful.
3132 And when waves surround them like mountains, they call on God, sincerely devoting the system to Him. But when He saves them to the shore, some of them revert. None discard Our signs except those who are betrayers, unappreciative.2187 And Jonah, when he went off in anger, and he thought that We would not be able to take him. Then he called out in the darkness ?There is no god but You! Glory to You, I was of the wicked!?
Some people may have not experienced disasters where they had to sincerely pray to God. How can I tell another person to call to God for aid and have God respond? That is not repeatable.
JK- The problem with this it how can it prove a specific religion true SINCE PEOPLE FROM ALL RELIGIONS MAKE SIMILAR CLAIMS. From every religion youll find people claiming that their god has intervened and saved them from such and such disaster. So now what? How does that prove the Quran which is the issue here?
Unless a person experienced this themselves the above verses are meaningless. Also
583 And if they hear what was sent down to the messenger you see their eyes flooding with tears, for what they have known as the truth, they say ?Our Lord, we believe, so record us with the witnesses.?
The reaction of people who read it is vastly different. Some people try and follow it, others are averse to it and try and falsify it. What about the people who cry when reading it? Some verses that I convey to people that mean alot to me barely elicit a reaction from them.
JK- You cry when reading it when you have evidence of it being true otherwise you can cry at any dramatic text. The Quran claims it is the Truth so it must be independently verifiable otherwise thered be no difference between it and many other religious texts. GOD Bless!
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Peace "aalmakto",
JK- The problem with this it how can it prove a specific religion true SINCE PEOPLE FROM ALL RELIGIONS MAKE SIMILAR CLAIMS. From every religion youll find people claiming that their god has intervened and saved them from such and such disaster. So now what? How does that prove the Quran which is the issue here?
God does intervene and save them from disasters. They ascribe partners and say stuff like it their Patron saint or Jesus who did it. The Quran makes it clear that it is God alone. The point I am making is that I myself thought I was an athiest but I still prayed to God when a disaster occured. So it in affect "reminded" me of what had happened in my life.
JK- You cry when reading it when you have evidence of it being true otherwise you can cry at any dramatic text. The Quran claims it is the Truth so it must be independently verifiable otherwise thered be no difference between it and many other religious texts. GOD Bless!
Yes it can be independently believed in or rejected. What is evidence for one person may be rejected by another.
1514 And if We opened for them a gate in the heaven and they were to continue ascending to it,
1515 They would have said ?Our sight has been fogged. No, we are a people who are being bewitched!? -
Peace "aalmakto",
God does intervene and save them from disasters. They ascribe partners and say stuff like it their Patron saint or Jesus who did it. The Quran makes it clear that it is God alone. The point I am making is that I myself thought I was an athiest but I still prayed to God when a disaster occured So it in affect "reminded" me of what had happened in my life.
JK- This maybe true for you but is not so for all atheists and i wouldnt consider this significant proof BECAUSE most atheists come from religious families or are brought up in semi religious environments where phrases, which can be just plain statements, like "oh god, oh my god" etc etc are still being used. It is an observed feature that what you learn first is difficult to unlearn even though it maybe irrational. For example i myself still instinctively think that is better to put food in my mouth with the right hand, because thats what i learned as a former sunni, although there is no rational reason for it especially when using cutlery.
Yes it can be independently believed in or rejected. What is evidence for one person may be rejected by another.
1514 And if We opened for them a gate in the heaven and they were to continue ascending to it,
1515 They would have said ?Our sight has been fogged. No, we are a people who are being bewitched!?JK- This is true and i agree with you on the aspect of relativity of evidence acceptance. This can be seen clearly in case of people rejecting the theory of evolution. But as the Quran says ultimately the truth will stand out clear fom falsehood. GOD Bless!
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Dear All,
According to my understanding proving is the problem and not the truth. Example can anyone prove that fire is good?
no one can because it has both the qualities within it. Same is with the quran. The medium to talk or conveying message is language and language has its goods and bad. Now when we start to prove that Quran or any other book as God's message then we must consider the criterion set by the writer of book about what is truth. To understand the truth or complete picture one has to be patient and this is what we human's lack.No one can prove that quran is the word of God because proof is different with different people. For example for me if there is one verse which can clear one confusion in my mind then to me it is truth but if I want complete proof according to everyone in this forum then it will be impossible.
In my understanding there is no way to prove the unseen because proof is about the things which are see able. Now if we come to Quran then Quran itself says that one can get guidance and misguidance form it at the same time so the problem of proof is already cleared by telling this. Now if we come to the Quran for the guidance then we have to follow the rules given in Quran to get the guidance and that goes for any book claiming to be the guidance from God.
As far as my understanding of Quran is concerned then it clearly states the rules to understand and the logic why Quran to be considered as Word of God. Few of the logic are following.
482 why do they not study the Quran carefully? If it were from other than GOD, they would have found in it numerous contradictions.
6115 the word of thy Lord doth find its fulfilment in truth and in justice None can change His words for He is the one who hearth and know all.
2368 Do they not ponder over the Word (of God), or has anything (new) come to them that did not come to their fathers of old?
Regards.
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Peace to all,
Not only is the Quran compatible with science and reason, but it is also mathematically configured, and this is substantial proof in itself. It is beyond the abilities of a man to construct the Quran the way it was done, and this means it must come from a greater source than man. NUMBERS DON'T LIE, and the Quran has been accurately preserved and proven through the use of mathematics, which demonstrates it's divinity.
Peace,
Ahmad
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Peace Ahmad,
NUMBERS DON'T LIE
Which planet do you live on? NUMBERS CAN BE MADE TO LIE ALL THE TIME. Mathematics is just a tool and what you get depends on how you use it.
Politicians use numbers to lie all the time. For example, they may tell you "we grew our economy by 1,000,000,000 one billion pounds or dinars or whatever". What they don't tell you is that this represents only 1% of the GDP and that inflation was 20% so that economy actually shrank.
Similarly, if I tell you that I cured 1,000 people from cancer, you will think that I discovered a miracle cure.
What you don't know is that I had 100,000 patients and 99,000 of them died a painful death upon taking my medicine. What I am also not telling you is that taking nothing but a placebo, 5,000 people were cured of this type of cancer anyway. So a placebo has a better success rate than my "miracle" cure.
Numbers are as much about what is being told as about what is not being told. It is only those who are ignorants in mathematics who say things like NUMBERS DON'T LIE.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Ayman,
Which planet do you live on? NUMBERS CAN BE MADE TO LIE ALL THE TIME. Mathematics is just a tool and what you get depends on how you use it.
Politicians use numbers to lie all the time. For example, they may tell you "we grew our economy by 1,000,000,000 one billion pounds or dinars or whatever". What they don't tell you is that this represents only 1% of the GDP and that inflation was 20% so that economy actually shrank.
Similarly, if I tell you that I cured 1,000 people from cancer, you will think that I discovered a miracle cure.
What you don't know is that I had 100,000 patients and 99,000 of them died a painful death upon taking my medicine. What I am also not telling you is that taking nothing but a placebo, 5,000 people were cured of this type of cancer anyway. So a placebo has a better success rate than my "miracle" cure.
Numbers are as much about what is being told as about what is not being told. It is only those who are ignorants in mathematics who say things like NUMBERS DON'T LIE.
This is ridiculous. I didn't say anything about organizing the numbers in a way that they would mislead people. I said numbers, generally, do not lie, and that is a true statement. 1+1=2, and this will always be the case, no matter who the unknown factors are. If this is not the case, then show me a way in which 5+5=11. laugh
If someone places factors in order with the intention of misleading, this is not denying the accuracy of mathematics. For example, if you cured 1,000 out of 100,000 people from cancer using some kind of "miracle cure", the FACT is that you cured 1,000 people of cancer. The numbers are not lying at all. What you are doing is concealing the rest of the results with the intention of being misleading. Likewise, if politicians say we grew our economy by 1,000,000,000 pounds/denars/dollars/euros/etc., this is a mathematically correct statement. The numbers are NOT lying at all. It is the politician who has concealed the factors and percentages of these totals, not revealing them to the people.
Only those who are ignorant in mathematics would say things like NUMBERS DO LIE. In reality, numbers don't lie, people lie.
When it comes to the scriptures, since I know that's where you're getting at, it wasn't man who placed the scriptures in ratios and patterns of 19. It is GOD's scripture, and 50 years ago, men didn't even know about the patterns of 19 throughout the quran. So, it was not humanly composed or structured at all. This was all done 1,400 years ago, when people didn't completely understand the principles of mathematics like they do today. It was GOD who organized the scripture this way, and it was GOD who stated in His quran, "On it is 19." No man did this. So, since numbers don't lie, for you to say that the organization of this pattern to be based on lies, you are actually saying that GOD Himself lied about these numbers, not men. It is either this, or you view GOD to be a god of coincidences, which I also completely disagree with. GOD has numbered and ordered/arranged/organized all things, and there are no coincidences, especially when it comes to His word...
Peace,
Ahmad
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Peace Ahmad,
This is ridiculous. I didn't say anything about organizing the numbers in a way that they would mislead people. I said numbers, generally, do not lie, and that is a true statement. 1+1=2, and this will always be the case, no matter who the unknown factors are. If this is not the case, then show me a way in which 5+5=11. laugh
No 1+1=2 is not always a true statement. It depends on how you use it and on unknown factors. For example
"1 apple + 1 orange = 2 apples" is false.
Even if we are just counting apples, say for the purpose of counting how many we have for food
"1 apple + 1 rotten apple = 2 apples" is also false.
You are again demonstrating your ignorance of basic mathematical concepts. This is not surprising. It is only ignorants in mathematics who are fascinated with "mathematical miracles" such as Code 19.
If someone places factors in order with the intention of misleading, this is not denying the accuracy of mathematics. For example, if you cured 1,000 out of 100,000 people from cancer using some kind of "miracle cure", the FACT is that you cured 1,000 people of cancer. The numbers are not lying at all. What you are doing is concealing the rest of the results with the intention of being misleading. Likewise, if politicians say we grew our economy by 1,000,000,000 pounds/denars/dollars/euros/etc., this is a mathematically correct statement. The numbers are NOT lying at all. It is the politician who has concealed the factors and percentages of these totals, not revealing them to the people.
Exactly. This is precisely like Code 19 hunters concealing their failed trials and not revealing them to the people. If they revealed their failed trials then you would easily see their fraud and the fact that their successful trials are 1 in 19, which is like the normal rate of a placebo.
Only those who are ignorant in mathematics would say things like NUMBERS DO LIE. In reality, numbers don't lie, people lie.
Numbers and letters are used by people to lie. Numbers and letters don't pop up on their own. Saying "numbers don't lie" is as ridiculous as saying "letters don't lie".
When it comes to the scriptures, since I know that's where you're getting at, it wasn't man who placed the scriptures in ratios and patterns of 19. It is GOD's scripture, and 50 years ago, men didn't even know about the patterns of 19 throughout the quran. So, it was not humanly composed or structured at all. This was all done 1,400 years ago, when people didn't completely understand the principles of mathematics like they do today. It was GOD who organized the scripture this way, and it was GOD who stated in His quran, "On it is 19." No man did this. So, since numbers don't lie, for you to say that the organization of this pattern to be based on lies, you are actually saying that GOD Himself lied about these numbers, not men. It is either this, or you view GOD to be a god of coincidences, which I also completely disagree with. GOD has numbered and ordered/arranged/organized all things, and there are no coincidences, especially when it comes to His word...
There is no pattern. You are lying by hiding the failed trials where you didn't get a 19 divisible just like the discoverer of the cancer miracle cure and the politician are lying by hiding their failed trials.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Ayman,
No 1+1=2 is not always a true statement. It depends on how you use it and on unknown factors. For example
"1 apple + 1 orange = 2 apples" is false.
Even if we are just counting apples, say for the purpose of counting how many we have for food
"1 apple + 1 rotten apple = 2 apples" is also false.
You are clearly showing your ignorance in basic mathematics, regardless of your level of education. 1+1=2, always and forever. What you're talking about is basing these numbers on unknown factors and variables (i.e. 1a+2b=c). This is a completely different area of discussion.
This is precisely like Code 19 hunters concealing their failed trials and not revealing them to the people. If they revealed their failed trials then you would easily see their fraud and the fact that their successful trials are 1 in 19, which is like the normal rate of a placebo.
This is false. The rate of success depends on the equation they base the pattern on, and this can vary from subject to subject. For example, it doesn't take a bunch of failed trials to realize that the Basmalah contains 19 letters. However, you dispute this by saying this is merely a coincidence... So, we go to the issue of the Arabic words used in the Basmalah occurring a 19-divisible number of times throughout the scripture, and you dispute this as well... So, we determine that the number of chapters in the quran (114) is also 19-divisible, in which you develop a separate line of reasoning by saying that there are only 113 chapters, and chapter 9 is really a continuation of chapter 8... So, we show you the use of the word "GOD" (i.e. "the god", or allah, throughout the quran also being a 19-divisible number. You also credit this as being coincidental... So, we show you the gematrical value of the word "wahed"/one/indivisible (i.e. "GOD is one", and you say this is also coincidental... So, we point out the idea of Mohammed's first revelation containing exactly 19 words, but you say this story is unreliable...
Here are a few others
-The word "quran" occurs in 38 different chapters.
-Within the 114 chapters of the Quran, 29 of them begin with the Quranic initials discussed earlier. Intermixed between the first initialed chapter (2) and the last initialed chapter (6 are 38 non-initialed chapters, which is 19-divisible (19x2).
-From chapter 2 to chapter 68, there are 19 alternating sets of initialed and non-initialed chapters.
-The total number of verses making up this group of chapters is 5263 (19x277).
-Within this group of chapters, there are also 2641 occurrences of the word "allah" (19x139), which leaves 57 (19x4), occurrences of that word outside of this group.
You must think this is some kind of conspiracy or something, right?My question is this, Brother Ayman how much proof needs to be presented on this issue before you realize it's not coincidental? This is not "chance" or "random" at all; it is occurring within a set pattern. You're just so stubborn regarding these clear proofs, you'd probably still disbelieve if GOD sent the angels themselves to the earth to declare the code's authenticity!
Numbers and letters are used by people to lie. Numbers and letters don't pop up on their own. Saying "numbers don't lie" is as ridiculous as saying "letters don't lie".
First of all, this is OUTRAGEOUS to say the least. Saying "numbers are used by people to lie" is not nearly the same thing as saying "numbers lie". That's ridiculous. NUMBERS DO NOT LIE... Secondly, "letters" are completely arbitrary, and they are not even close to the same concept as numbers. They're recyclable, and a word/letter in one language may mean something completely different in another language. Also, refiguration of numbers in addition and multiplication carries the same result (i.e. 2x3=3x2). This is completely different when it comes to letters, especially in English. To say "pan=nap" is completely false and unreasonable. Numbers are not arbitrary, they're definate. 1+1=2, no matter what language you speak or what culture you come from. How can you even compare these 2 completely different concepts and say they're the same?
You are lying by hiding the failed trials where you didn't get a 19 divisible just like the discoverer of the cancer miracle cure and the politician are lying by hiding their failed trials.
I already told you nobody's hiding failed trials. However, what would be the point of presenting them if submitters already admit to having them? All this does is take up needless amounts of useful space on a computer screen, chalk board, piece of paper, or whatever they decide to write on. Outside of understanding this concept, nobody's hiding anything.
Peace,
Ahmad
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Peace Ahmad,
You are clearly showing your ignorance in basic mathematics, regardless of your level of education. 1+1=2, always and forever. What you're talking about is basing these numbers on unknown factors and variables (i.e. 1a+2b=c). This is a completely different area of discussion.
So you think that 1+1=2 is mathematics while 1a+2b=c is not and is a completely different area of discusion!? If ignorance means disagreeing with your nonsense then I guess it is a good thing.
This is false. The rate of success depends on the equation they base the pattern on, and this can vary from subject to subject. For example, it doesn't take a bunch of failed trials to realize that the Basmalah contains 19 letters. However, you dispute this by saying this is merely a coincidence...
It is not my problem that you ignore that adding the number of letters in a verse is a formula. So please apply this formula to a random sample of the great reading and tell us how many results you get are 19 divisible. If the rate is higher than 1 in 19 then we can talk.
So, we go to the issue of the Arabic words used in the Basmalah occurring a 19-divisible number of times throughout the scripture, and you dispute this as well...
This is false. Even with the Hadith-based deletion of 9128-129, the count of "bism" never adds up to a 19 divisible. There are only 3 "bism" in the entire great reading.
So, we determine that the number of chapters in the quran (114) is also 19-divisible, in which you develop a separate line of reasoning by saying that there are only 113 chapters, and chapter 9 is really a continuation of chapter 8...
This is the only logical possible conclusion if you eliminate the manmade decorations and chapter titles.
So, we show you the use of the word "GOD" (i.e. "the god", or allah, throughout the quran also being a 19-divisible number. You also credit this as being coincidental... So, we show you the gematrical value of the word "wahed"/one/indivisible (i.e. "GOD is one", and you say this is also coincidental...
How come the gematrical value of "bism", "allah", "alrahman", and "alrahim" are not 19 divisible? Do you think that Khalifa didn't try those to see if they are? Of course he did but he is not telling because those are failed trials so instead he digs around for other words knowing that if he keeps looking he will sooner or later find something that is 19 divisible such as "wahed". Also, "wahed" doesn't mean "GOD is one". It is thus used to describe other things such as food in 261.
So, we point out the idea of Mohammed's first revelation containing exactly 19 words, but you say this story is unreliable...
This is entirely Hadith-based conjecture. Like a typical 19er and Khalifa, you hypocritically resort to Hadiths when they suit your purposes.
Here are a few others
-The word "quran" occurs in 38 different chapters.And its gematrical value is not 19 divisible and its number of occurrences is not 19 divisible. 19ers certainly tried all those trials. So those are all failed trials.
-Within the 114 chapters of the Quran, 29 of them begin with the Quranic initials discussed earlier. Intermixed between the first initialed chapter (2) and the last initialed chapter (6 are 38 non-initialed chapters, which is 19-divisible (19x2).
-From chapter 2 to chapter 68, there are 19 alternating sets of initialed and non-initialed chapters.On the other hand, 29 chapters that actually have the supposed initials is not a 19 divisible number. The total of the chapter numbers is not 19 divisible either. Etc. Etc. You are again only advertizing the successful trials and hiding the failed trials.
-The total number of verses making up this group of chapters is 5263 (19x277).
But using another popular method that 19ers use the chapter number followed by the number of verses in each chapter is not a 19 divisible. Etc. Etc. You are again only advertizing the successful trials and hiding the many more failed trials.
-Within this group of chapters, there are also 2641 occurrences of the word "allah" (19x139), which leaves 57 (19x4), occurrences of that word outside of this group.
You must think this is some kind of conspiracy or something, right?Within this group of chapters, the number of occurrences of the words "rahman", "rahim", and "bism" is not 19 divisible and occurrences of those words outside of this group is also not 19 divisible!
You must think this is some kind of conspiracy or something, right?My question is this, Brother Ayman how much proof needs to be presented on this issue before you realize it's not coincidental? This is not "chance" or "random" at all; it is occurring within a set pattern. You're just so stubborn regarding these clear proofs, you'd probably still disbelieve if GOD sent the angels themselves to the earth to declare the code's authenticity!
All I need is for you and other 19ers not to hide your failed trials and honestly show everyone the whole truth. We can then objectively decide based on the ratio of success to failure whether there is a pattern or not.
First of all, this is OUTRAGEOUS to say the least. Saying "numbers are used by people to lie" is not nearly the same thing as saying "numbers lie". That's ridiculous. NUMBERS DO NOT LIE... Secondly, "letters" are completely arbitrary, and they are not even close to the same concept as numbers. They're recyclable, and a word/letter in one language may mean something completely different in another language. Also, refiguration of numbers in addition and multiplication carries the same result (i.e. 2x3=3x2). This is completely different when it comes to letters, especially in English. To say "pan=nap" is completely false and unreasonable. Numbers are not arbitrary, they're definate. 1+1=2, no matter what language you speak or what culture you come from. How can you even compare these 2 completely different concepts and say they're the same?
They are the same. They are all manmade ways of representing knowledge. You can also say one plus one equal two. Thus like letters are different in various languages, numbers are also different in different languages and numerical systems. Thus, the number two in a tally system is represented as 11 (instead of 2), which is eleven in a base-ten system. It is going to be also represented differently in a binary numbering system, etc.
You don't seem to grasp the fact that numbers such a 9.8m/s^2 are merely manmade knowledge representations just like letters. Thus, 9.8m/s^2 is a manmade representation of gravity. It is not gravity. Do you see the difference?
I already told you nobody's hiding failed trials. However, what would be the point of presenting them if submitters already admit to having them? All this does is take up needless amounts of useful space on a computer screen, chalk board, piece of paper, or whatever they decide to write on. Outside of understanding this concept, nobody's hiding anything.
These are all lame excuses. If you are not hiding the failed trials then simply show them. Computer storage space is the cheapest commodity in existence. You can get a Terabyte (that's 1000GB) of storage for under $100 nowadays. All the successful trials of 19ers won't even take even a few MBs and the failed trials are probably going to be 18 times that size. So all in all we are talking about far less than 1GB of storage. Again, notice that you don't contest the fact that you have many failed trials (because this is indisputable) but instead contest my request to honestly share them.
Peace,
Ayman
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ayman
This is entirely Hadith-based conjecture. Like a typical 19er and Khalifa, you hypocritically resort to Hadiths when they suit your purposes.Yes! that is the main problem with Khalifa and his followers; no matter how sincere with Islam they might be. Whole system of 19 is based on a hadith? do we call it hippocracy or what?
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Peace Raj-ah,
That is the main problem with Khalifa and his followers; no matter how sincere with Islam they might be. Whole system of 19 is based on a hadith? do we call it hippocracy or what?
Wow... laugh Which hadith, then, speaks of the code 19? Have you seen any? Or are you speaking about that in which you have no knowledge? The quran itself is what draws submitters to the "code 19" concept. Alquran plainly says On it is nineteen. (7430) So, what do you think this scripture is referring to? And please show me a hadith when it predicts the code 19 concept.
Peace Ayman,
So you think that 1+1=2 is mathematics while 1a+2b=c is not and is a completely different area of discusion!? If ignorance means disagreeing with your nonsense then I guess it is a good thing.
Where did I say that equation is not mathematical? I didn't say that at all. I simply said that it's a different area of study, leaned towards unknown factors and variables. Your disagreement of that truth in that matter only shows your mathematical ignorance.
This is false. Even with the Hadith-based deletion of 9128-129, the count of "bism" never adds up to a 19 divisible. There are only 3 "bism" in the entire great reading.
I never said anything about "bism"; I said "ism"/name.
This is the only logical possible conclusion if you eliminate the manmade decorations and chapter titles.
So, stating that, you're implying that the quran has not been accurately preserved. Over generations, it has always been mentioned that the quran contains 114 chapters, not 114. And even still, you have absolutely no proof of your speculations other than the fact that chapter 9 is missing the Basmalah that is written in all the other chapters. Therefore, your view is baseless. If the quran has not been accurately preserved, then how can you trust in it?
All I need is for you and other 19ers not to hide your failed trials and honestly show everyone the whole truth. We can then objectively decide based on the ratio of success to failure whether there is a pattern or not.
People have already agreed to do that...
They are the same. They are all manmade ways of representing knowledge. You can also say one plus one equal two. Thus like letters are different in various languages, numbers are also different in different languages and numerical systems. Thus, the number two in a tally system is represented as 11 (instead of 2), which is eleven in a base-ten system. It is going to be also represented differently in a binary numbering system, etc.
This is outrageous, brother, and this is ridiculous. Letters are arbitrary; numbers are not arbitrary. If a person writes the word "one" instead of "1", an English-speaking person would say these are the same thing. However, a Spanish-speaking person would say that "one" means "uno". Either way, though, the concepts remain absolute, and they don't change. For example, if a person makes an equation using an American scale (i.e. 2x2=4), it will still be correct when it comes to a tally system (i.e. 11x11=1111).
Peace,
Ahmad
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Peace Ahmad,
So, stating that, you're implying that the quran has not been accurately preserved. Over generations, it has always been mentioned that the quran contains 114 chapters, not 114. And even still, you have absolutely no proof of your speculations other than the fact that chapter 9 is missing the Basmalah that is written in all the other chapters. Therefore, your view is baseless. If the quran has not been accurately preserved, then how can you trust in it?
What hypocrisy! You have the nerve to accuse me of "implying that the quran has not been accurately preserved" when I remove what EVERYONE 100% agrees are the 100% MANMADE page decorations and chapter titles but you removing TWO verses doesn't ""imply that the quran has not been accurately preserved"!
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Ahmad,
What hypocrisy! You have the nerve to accuse me of "implying that the quran has not been accurately preserved" when I remove what EVERYONE 100% agrees are the 100% MANMADE page decorations and chapter titles but you removing TWO verses doesn't ""imply that the quran has not been accurately preserved"!
Peace,
Ayman
They have the authority do you have hmm
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Peace Ayman,
What hypocrisy! You have the nerve to accuse me of "implying that the quran has not been accurately preserved" when I remove what EVERYONE 100% agrees are the 100% MANMADE page decorations and chapter titles but you removing TWO verses doesn't ""imply that the quran has not been accurately preserved"!
I'm not trying to attack you or anything, Ayman, so don't assume such. I'm simply telling you what your implications are, regardless of whether they're meant to be presented that way or not... In reality, part of the quran's preservation was the identification of 114 separate chapters of the book, containing a specific number of words, letters, verses, etc. To deny this alleged reality is to imply that the quran has not been entirely preserved. The only way this conclusion can be conquered is by presenting another method to preserving it's authenticity. This is reality... Now, in reality, we know that the quran has been altered by imams and scholars, and there is historical evidence, as well as improper translations, that provide proof for this claim. However, this doesn't mean that it hasn't been adequately preserved; GOD has preserved it in another way... I believe this way to be "code 19". If you believe differently, then state what your opinion is. In what way do you believe GOD preserves His message?
Peace,
Ahmad
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Salaam
BilalWow... Which hadith, then, speaks of the code 19? Have you seen any? Or are you speaking about that in which you have no knowledge? The quran itself is what draws submitters to the "code 19" concept. Alquran plainly says On it is nineteen. (7430) So, what do you think this scripture is referring to? And please show me a hadith when it predicts the code 19 concept.
I will not assume you are pretending.
Just read the following quote specially the one in red.ayman
What hypocrisy! You have the nerve to accuse me of "implying that the quran has not been accurately preserved" when I remove what EVERYONE 100% agrees are the 100% MANMADE page decorations and chapter titles but you removing TWO verses doesn't ""imply that the quran has not been accurately preserved"!
Dear Bilal, Is it not true that Khalifa was able to formulate his 19 theory only after removal of Two verses? correct me if my information is wrong!
Now if it is correct; my question to you is, where did he got the information; that Two verses were "included" in Quran falsely and were not there originally? now, if you answer this honestly you will understand what I was talking about.ayman
This is entirely Hadith-based conjecture. Like a typical 19er and Khalifa, you hypocritically resort to Hadiths when they suit your purposes.
Even though my stance on Hadith is quite different from ayman's but here I agree with him.
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Peace Raj-ah,
Is it not true that Khalifa was able to formulate his 19 theory only after removal of Two verses? correct me if my information is wrong!
Now if it is correct; my question to you is, where did he got the information; that Two verses were "included" in Quran falsely and were not there originally? now, if you answer this honestly you will understand what I was talking about.
This is false. The hadith is what confirmed the mathematics, not the other way around. All the other proofs presented showed the two verses to be fabricated, and that was confirmed by the hadiths regarding the additions. The mathematics involving 9128 and 129 already showed what the hadith was saying. So, the "code 19" wasn't based on any hadith at all, it was just confirmed by it...
Even though my stance on Hadith is quite different from ayman's but here I agree with him.
In order for you to agree with Ayman on this issue, you'd have to hold the belief that ALL hadiths are fabricated, and none of them have any historical significance... As for me, I believe many, even most, of the hadiths are fabricated, and none of them should be used as a religious source. However, some of them may be accurate in terms of history, especially the ones that don't conflict with the quran, and the text regarding 9128 and 129 present a historical view of the scriptural collection during that time period. Just because it's recorded in the ahadith doesn't automatically make it completely fabricated.
Peace,
Ahmad