Virgin Birth of Isa

belH

Salaam Belal, all
God says (865-6)

Now let man but think from what he is created!
He is created from a drop emitted-

Jesus was not created from a drop of simen, therefore Jesus is not human

Salaam Samia (Pigeon Eater)

Adam was not too, and he was Human; and as you know, Adam was used, by God, as an example for Jesus Creation.

Peace

Samia

Salaam Belal

Repeating verses twice or ten times does not change anything about their meaning. You can neither deduce from them that Jesus did not have a father, nor can I deduce from them that Jesus had a father. So, these are not well established verses, if this is what you mean by a "well established verse"

God says (865-6)

Now let man but think from what he is created!
He is created from a drop emitted-

The above is a statement, either true or false. If you add exceptions to it, you are rendering the original a "false statement".
But the statement is divine, and must be true. Therefore any addition to it or substraction from it is false.
This is what I call an established verse.
Unless you can deduce from it an (except Jesus and Adam) phrase.

belH

Salaam Belal

Repeating verses twice or ten times does not change anything about their meaning.

Salam,

If we reflect upon our own experiance, we would remmber that our understanding of Quran came through reading the same verses hunderds of times.

Salaam Belal

You can neither deduce from them that Jesus did not have a father, nor can I deduce from them that Jesus had a father. So, these are not well established verses, if this is what you mean by a "well established verse"

verses 19-17 to 24 are very well-established story.
It shows that the Spirit came to Mary in a form of a Human Man (well-established, 19-17). She was affraid of him, and asked God for his protaction (well-established, 19-1. The Spirit told her that he is the Messanger of God who will give her a holly Son (well-established, verse 19-19). She replied "how can I have a Son when no Men have touched me (well-established, 19-20). He replied (the Spirit), "God says it is easy, and I shall make him a Sign for the people and Mercy, and that is a matter (so) decreed (well-established, 19-21).
So she conceived (at the same time the spirit was there, and not after getting Married) him, and she retired with him to a remote place (a well-established, 19-22). If you read verse 19-23, you will note that it says And the pains of childbirth drove her to the trunk of a palm-tree she cried (in her anguish) "Ah! would that I had died before this! Would that I had been a thing forgotten and out of sight!" (well-established, 19-24)

If these are not Well-Established verses that shows Mary Getting Pregnent by a Blew from the Spirit (when you add the well-established verse 66-12), then...God be Mercy.

Please Tell Me and Others, WHERE CAN YOU FIT THE WORD FATHER IN THESE VERSES.

The above is a statement, either true or false. If you add exceptions to it, you are rendering the original a "false statement".
But the statement is divine, and must be true. Therefore any addition to it or substraction from it is false.
This is what I call an established verse.
Unless you can deduce from it an (except Jesus and Adam) phrase.

God can make exceptions to statments he makes; and he did when showing Jesus and Adam Creations.
Moreover, Jesus is not like you or me or anybody else, he is "A Word Of God", "A Sign From God", "A Spirit From God", but still "God's Servant" "Abdol Allah", like us and Angels and Spirits and Prophets and every thing God Created--"God's Servants".

)

unknownuser

Peace

Bro Kyle had a idea that might explain all of this.

Peace be upon you Boost,
The God creates acording to Its pattern..and the God creates in "PAIRS". There is male and female in all things...yin and yang if you will. Do not shy away from wisdom for fear it is not what others have talked about before.

The Divine feminine...how does one give birth and remain a virgin? Mental Creation!! Thats how ;D That which you put in your nafs(feminine)..your subconcious, you give birth to. You are what you think and imagine you are. Let God impregnate your spirit/nafs(feminine) and bring forth Its righteous character.

Samia

Salaam Belal

Salam,

If we reflect upon our own experiance, we would remmber that our understanding of Quran came through reading the same verses hunderds of times.

OK

So she conceived (at the same time the spirit was there, and not after getting Married)

Is the highlighted part well established too?

If you read verse 19-23, you will note that it says And the pains of childbirth drove her to the trunk of a palm-tree she cried (in her anguish) "Ah! would that I had died before this! Would that I had been a thing forgotten and out of sight!" (well-established, 19-24)

Continue to the verses that follow "So he called her from underneath her don't be sad! God made a water running under you(24). And shake the stem of the palm tree and fresh dates will drop on you(25)
She said what she said, not out of shame, but out of pain and exhausion. The remedy/reply was to drink water and eat dates, not a good recipe for fear of shame.
No wonder men think that her pain was due to fear. They have not experienced labour pain when a mother literally says I wish I died before.

If these are not Well-Established verses that shows Mary Getting Pregnent by a Blew from the Spirit (when you add the well-established verse 66-12), then...God be Mercy.

The spirit was also blown unto "bashar". Did that make the bashar pregnant?
Also, in the story of Mary, there are two verses about the spirit being blown unto "her" and unto "him". How many pregancies resulted from these two blews?

Please Tell Me and Others, WHERE CAN YOU FIT THE WORD FATHER IN THESE VERSES.

Nor can you fit the word "fatherless". That's what I've already said.

God can make exceptions to statments he makes; and he did when showing Jesus and Adam Creations.

This exception is dduced by you, not mentioned by God. Please give me an example of God making exceptions to statements in the form of all X is Y, without explicitly showing immediately except. Otherwise, you are talking of contradictions in the quraan.
Of course if God wants to make contradictions and illogical statements, He can. If He wants to be unfair He can. But HE DOES NOT. Haven't you read many verses where God says that if He wished He would do such and such. Why wouldn't He? Because this is against the rules He set for Himself so that we may understand and live normally following these rules. He creates logic in us to understand, and He respects this logic so that we may be able to understand His message. Or, if you want, He programmed our intelligence in such a way as to understand the simple logic. Otherwise, the quraan is not easy to understand as claimed by God, as it will be full of contradictions, becuase you cannot understand what's beyond your human logic following the statetments set in the qur'aan as guidlines.

Soof

circles. It's all subjective conclusions just like belief in God. One cannot persuade the other because there is no outlining text that says he had no father in that many words. God advises us against disputes about God once we have the Scripture. Happened to the Jews as well. I can understand debates and stating opinions but this is just going round and round and nothing is being drawn out for reflection.

Peace

belH

Please give me an example of God making exceptions to statements in the form of all X is Y, without explicitly showing immediately except. Otherwise, you are talking of contradictions in the quraan.

(80-24
(86-5

(80-25
(86-6

(80-26
(86-7

Then chapter 80 continue as follow
(&#65279 (&#65279 (&#65279 (&#65279 (&#65279 (&#65279

As you can note, both, the verses in chapter 86 and 80, are being constructed the same way with the same arabic words.
The exceptions for Chapter 80, where God shows how human food being created by rain and soil, are human food that comes from Sea (shrimp or Fish), Animals (beef or Lamb), and Birds (Pigeon or Chichen for example).

The exceptions for chapter 86 are Jesus (even God did not say he is Human like us, but "God's Word" "Spirit from God" "Sign of God&quot, Adam, and Adam's Wife.

belH

Salaam BelalOK
So she conceived (at the same time the spirit was there, and not after getting Married)
Is the highlighted part well established too?

(&#1633 (&#1634

If you are an arabic speaker, you know when using the letter "Faa" with a verb would mean that the verb is the result of the action that being discribed by the word before it. Example, Moses Hit the Man and Killed Him (Moses Darab elragel FaaKatalho).

"and that is a matter (so) decreed" these were the words that the Spirit told Mary (The words before the use of Faa) at the end of 19-21 (The Red Arabic Words), "Faa-Hamlatho" is the porceeding word (Faa+Verb) that means "Mary getting Pregnant" (the first word in 19-22, in Green Color).

Therefore, my statment
(at the same time the spirit was there, and not after getting Married)
Is based on the well established verses; thus, its meaning is well established.

Now, I believe that God ment that in order to show us that the Spirit that was talking to Mariam in the verses is the reason of making Mariam Pregnant. and that would answer your statment

Nor can you fit the word "fatherless".

Yes, God did. If you wish, believe or disbelieve.

The spirit was also blown unto "bashar". Did that make the bashar pregnant?

rotfl
Sis Samia, The Spirit does what God Wishes. The Blow accomplish what God Wants, any thing He Wants. Some time is used to make human Embyro alive, or To Make Adam alive, or to make the Brids that are made from Clay alive.
Or even to distroy the Whole Earth, if God Wishes.

Rami

Hi there,

I would like to add an idea that proves the Quran is really talking about a virgin birth. I don't know if someone said this before or not.

1914 And dutiful to his parents, and never was he a tyrant or disobedient. -John
1932 And to be dutiful to my mother, and He did not make me a rebellious tyrant. -Jesus

Can I say checkmate? John had a father and a mother and was dutiful to both of them. Jesus can only be dutiful to his mother because he doesn't have a father! Unless you believe Jesus kicked his father's ass. laugh

Peace.

Samia

Hi there,

I would like to add an idea that proves the Quran is really talking about a virgin birth. I don't know if someone said this before or not.

1914 And dutiful to his parents, and never was he a tyrant or disobedient. -John
1932 ?And to be dutiful to my mother, and He did not make me a rebellious tyrant.? -Jesus

Can I say checkmate? John had a father and a mother and was dutiful to both of them. Jesus can only be dutiful to his mother because he doesn't have a father! Unless you believe Jesus kicked his father's ass. laugh

Peace.

2810 "And the heart of Moses mother became empty. She almost disclosed the truth about him had We not strengthened her heart so that she might remain as one of the believers"

2813 "So did We return him to his mother that her eyes might be comforted and that she might not grieve and that she might know that the promise of God is true, but most of them do not know"

2040 "....and We returned you to your mother that she might comfort/cool her eyes and she should not grieve...."

The above verses are from the story of Moses, not Jesus. Didn't Moses have a father?

Rami

2810 "And the heart of Moses mother became empty. She almost disclosed the truth about him had We not strengthened her heart so that she might remain as one of the believers"

2813 "So did We return him to his mother that her eyes might be comforted and that she might not grieve and that she might know that the promise of God is true, but most of them do not know"

2040 "....and We returned you to your mother that she might comfort/cool her eyes and she should not grieve...."

The above verses are from the story of Moses, not Jesus. Didn't Moses have a father?

The above verses doesn't say that he was good to his mother like the verses I have given. I guess Jesus father ie. Joseph didn't die like Amram.

Rami

If Jesus had a father, why didn't God say he is not my son he is Joseph's????
Why the hell did the Quran alone community skipped all the incredible happenings found in the Quran and concentrated on the Virgin birth?? they are all equally impossible. Do you have a way to split the sea? or turn the staff into a snake!!( which is similar to the creation of Jesus btw) or the incredible miracles of Solomon etc etc. Amazing!!

AlFajr

If Jesus had a father, why didn't God say he is not my son he is Joseph's????
Why the hell did the Quran alone community skipped all the incredible happenings found in the Quran and concentrated on the Virgin birth?? they are all equally impossible. Do you have a way to split the sea? or turn the staff into a snake!!( which is similar to the creation of Jesus btw) or the incredible miracles of Solomon etc etc. Amazing!!

I agree, which is also another reason I am confused as to why so many people are so averse to literal interpretations of the hereafter. The Quran lists many scenarios that we do not encounter on a daily basis. Whats the problem with virgin birth and hellfire/paradise?

Rami

I agree, which is also another reason I am confused as to why so many people are so averse to literal interpretations of the hereafter. The Quran lists many scenarios that we do not encounter on a daily basis. Whats the problem with virgin birth and hellfire/paradise?

Have they ever wondered that the first creation was the most amazing and the most impossible?! here we are taking everything for granted though the signs around us is greater than the others.

Peace.

Samia

If Jesus had a father, why didn't God say he is not my son he is Joseph's????
Why the hell did the Quran alone community skipped all the incredible happenings found in the Quran and concentrated on the Virgin birth?? they are all equally impossible. Do you have a way to split the sea? or turn the staff into a snake!!( which is similar to the creation of Jesus btw) or the incredible miracles of Solomon etc etc. Amazing!!

If Ozair had a father, why didn't God say he was not my son he is the son of "whoever"? (930).

The quraan alone community does not hold a unified opinion about many things, so do not generalize please. My understanding is not necessarily a standard understanding of the quraan alone community. As for the sea splitting and the turning of the cane into a snake, doesn't the quraan mention that in details and shows us the result of that (saving banu Israel, killing the pharoah and his army and preserving the body of the pharoah; turning many people towards God, including the wife of the pharoah)? Didn't God tell us, in details again, about the miracles of Solomon? Did He tell us that Jesus was fatherless or that Mary was virgin? Why then read what was not mentioned?

Have they ever wondered that the first creation was the most amazing and the most impossible?! here we are taking everything for granted though the signs around us is greater than the others.

Peace.

The first creation was not of Adam (if that's what you mean) but Adam's creation was preceded by the creation of "bashar". Adam "i.e the insaan" was the descendant of the bashar and was reproduced in the normal biological way God tells us we (the insaan) were created. from semen. Hence the comparison between Jesus and Adam (the insaan).

Rami

If Ozair had a father, why didn't God say he was not my son he is the son of "whoever"? (930).

The quraan alone community does not hold a unified opinion about many things, so do not generalize please. My understanding is not necessarily a standard understanding of the quraan alone community. As for the sea splitting and the turning of the cane into a snake, doesn't the quraan mention that in details and shows us the result of that (saving banu Israel, killing the pharoah and his army and preserving the body of the pharoah; turning many people towards God, including the wife of the pharoah)? Didn't God tell us, in details again, about the miracles of Solomon? Did He tell us that Jesus was fatherless or that Mary was virgin? Why then read what was not mentioned?

The first creation was not of Adam (if that's what you mean) but Adam's creation was preceded by the creation of "bashar". Adam "i.e the insaan" was the descendant of the bashar and was reproduced in the normal biological way God tells us we (the insaan) were created. from semen. Hence the comparison between Jesus and Adam (the insaan).

God didn't discuss the Ozair issue. Doesn't the Quran mention that Jesus and the mother are signs? Wasn't Mary amazed when she was told that she will have a son though nobody touched her? She was young and she never said she was infertile, then why the hell is the amazement?!. You are simply twisting the scripture.

Rami

Peace,

If Mary was not a virgin, then the talmud is right of her being a fornicator. If she was married to Joseph and everything is legit, why the hell didn't she say that when they accused her?
People What have you done Mary?
Mary Done what? Thats my baby from Joseph! DUH! He is like my husband! rotfl

Peace.

Samia

Peace,

If Mary was not a virgin, then the talmud is right of her being a fornicator. If she was married to Joseph and everything is legit, why the hell didn't she say that when they accused her?
People What have you done Mary?
Mary Done what? Thats my baby from Joseph! DUH! He is like my husband! rotfl

Peace.

How did they ask her? By stones, slander, or soft blame? Those were people who believed in stoning. They would not even have asked her if they knew she was not married and had a child. They addressed her as "O sister of Aaron!" Who was Aaron? Was he a criminal or a priest? "Sister of Aaron" means "the like of Aaron". How would they describe a fornicator a "the like of Aaron"?
She did not say who the baby was, nor had the baby told them. Because that was not the question. Her people's concern was why she got married when she was donated to the temple and was supposed to stay unmarried like a nun. She broke the tradition, obeyed God's command and stood in the face of her people. That's why she was an example for the believers, together with the wife of the pharoah, because they both stood in the face of power and authority and chose the side of God. Why else would she be an example for the believers? Because she was virgin?

The reaction in the Talmud accusing her of fornication is not different from the other extreme reaction in believing in her as a goddess or/and in Jesus as the son of God both result from believing that Mary had a bay on her own, without a husband.

Rami

How did they ask her? By stones, slander, or soft blame? Those were people who believed in stoning. They would not even have asked her if they knew she was not married and had a child.

Stoning is not executed immediately. There is invetsigations first and the Sanhedrin will decide what they will do with her. And Rome were behind their ass. Plus stoning is not prescribed for fornication but for adultery. Mary was not going to get stoned anyway.

They addressed her as "O sister of Aaron!" Who was Aaron? Was he a criminal or a priest? "Sister of Aaron" means "the like of Aaron". How would they describe a fornicator a "the like of Aaron"?

I guess thats inaccurate. For 'sister' to mean like, it must be of the same sex. Like the signs of God. Some of them are sisters because they are similar. Mary was simply the sister of Aaron and the daughter of Imran. Singular to singular of opposite sexes = literal relationship.

She did not say who the baby was, nor had the baby told them. Because that was not the question. Her people's concern was why she got married when she was donated to the temple and was supposed to stay unmarried like a nun. She broke the tradition, obeyed God's command and stood in the face of her people. That's why she was an example for the believers, together with the wife of the pharoah, because they both stood in the face of power and authority and chose the side of God. Why else would she be an example for the believers? Because she was virgin?

According to Jewish tradition, there is no such things as 'Nuns'. Plus the Levitical priests are always males and were allowed to marry except divorcee and converts. So Mary didn't break anything. They told her
1928 O sister of Aaron, your father was not a bad man, and your mother was never unchaste!
What is this has to do with the mythological tradition of not getting married?? Is marriage a bad thing or unchastity?

The reaction in the Talmud accusing her of fornication is not different from the other extreme reaction in believing in her as a goddess or/and in Jesus as the son of God both result from believing that Mary had a bay on her own, without a husband.

I guess this is the tradition! So where is that tradition that say the "Aaronic Sisterhood" actually existed and where does say they must not marry. These are all christian concepts that didn't even exist at the time of Mary.

arnoldyasin

Stoning is not executed immediately. There is invetsigations first and the Sanhedrin will decide what they will do with her. And Rome were behind their ass. Plus stoning is not prescribed for fornication but for adultery. Mary was not going to get stoned anyway.I guess thats inaccurate. For 'sister' to mean like, it must be of the same sex. Like the signs of God. Some of them are sisters because they are similar. Mary was simply the sister of Aaron and the daughter of Imran. Singular to singular of opposite sexes = literal relationship.
According to Jewish tradition, there is no such things as 'Nuns'. Plus the Levitical priests are always males and were allowed to marry except divorcee and converts. So Mary didn't break anything. They told her
1928 ?O sister of Aaron, your father was not a bad man, and your mother was never unchaste!?
What is this has to do with the mythological tradition of not getting married?? Is marriage a bad thing or unchastity?I guess this is the tradition! So where is that tradition that say the "Aaronic Sisterhood" actually existed and where does say they must not marry. These are all christian concepts that didn't even exist at the time of Mary.

Peace,

Rami, you are contradicting yourself. In the other thread you had agreed with me, but the above is the opposite. I suggest you to first read more on the subject then go ' internet' scholaring and suppose to know how the Levite class looked like. Mary as being family of Aaron and David was part of the holy bloodline that was protected by the priestclass of the Levi's. The term Nazarene comes from Nazre bitet meaning, the supporters and maintainers of the covenant/bond. They supported the covenant by maintaining the holy bloodline from which they expected the Messiah to be born from.

Only the priestclass was allowed to choose who Mary was going to marry to keep the bloodline 'pure'. The women of the holy bloodline were only viewed as breeders for the upcoming messiah.

And of what did her people accuse her off? The word used is Bagghiyah, which means 'anything that crosses the boundaries of good conduct or tradition'. It is logical that through Roman-Christian dogma, the word is understood to mean to cross sexual boundaries. But when we understand the purpose of the Nazerenes and that Mary was of the holy bloodline, it is clear the boiundaries here that were crossed, were not sexual but traditional.

She had fled the temple, married a non-holy bloodline person. When she came to her parents, seeign the baby, they knew it was not a 'pure' holy blood baby and so they said.

Oh Mary, why have you acted opposite of the tradition?

To me, this is far more logical and is line with modern discoveries on the Nazarene cult of the 1st century.