Salat according to Chapter 107

Rami

Hi there,

The Salat issue is like the great mystique of the Quran alone movement. Our adversaries are waiting for a new understanding from the Quranist community to start mocking it. What I will do is explain Salat from chapter 107 then apply it to the a few other verses. Here we go

1071 Have you seen him who is denying the system?
1072 It is the one who mistreats the orphan,
1073 And does not encourage the feeding of the poor.
1074 So woe to those who do Salat,
1075 But to their Salat they are absent minded.
1076 They only want to be seen,
1077 And they withhold from far-reaching deeds.

Now, people who say salat is prayer will find this Sura to be illogical. How can you be absent minded from prayer while you are one of those who prayed and what is praying has to do with charity. Others say that Salat is following the divine system. This again is illogical. God is talking about the 'musallen' who are heedless of their salat. It doesn't add up. They are already following the divine system hence their title. Why are they being accused of not doing so!? This is because doing salat and keeping it are 2 different issues. Salat, in my opinion, means those who listen to the scripture being recited. Keeping the Salat, on the other hand, means to follow the commands you have been given during the recitation. Therefore there are 3 kinds of people

People who do Salat and keep it.
People who do Salat but dont keep it.
People who don't do Salat.

Group 1 are described in Chapter 23

231 The believers are indeed successful.
232 Those who are humble in their Salat. - They listen to the scripture attentively when it is recited.
233 And they abstain from vain talk.
234 And they are active towards betterment.
235 And they cover their private parts.
236 Except around their mates, or those who are committed to them by oath, they are free from blame.
237 But whosoever seeks anything beyond this, then these are the transgressors.
238 And those who are true to what they have been entrusted and their pledges.
239 And those who keep their Salat. - They keep all the commandments that was recited on them.
2310 These are the inheritors.

Group 2 are the people being described in Chapter 107 just given. They just stand there listening to the scripture to show that they believe but they don't do what they were ordered and this explains why they don't give to charity because in their hearts they are denying God's way. Chapter 3 are people who decided not to listen to this recitation in the first place. These are described in few verses

7442 What has caused you to be in the scorching heat?
7443 They said We were not of those who did Salat - they decided not to listen to the Quran when it is recited.
7444 And we did not feed the poor person. - a logical outcome.
7445 And we used to participate with those who spoke falsehood. -rather than listening to God's revelations.
4126 And those who rejected said Do not listen to this Quran and talk over it that you may succeed.
8421 And when the Quran is being related to them, they do not prostrate - ie. Why don't they listen attentively to the Quran when it is recited?
7531 For he did not believe nor did Salat.
7532 But he denied and turned away. - See how the rejector turned away instead of listening attentively to the Quran.

Salat is described as something that gives orders
1187 They said O Shuayb, does your Salat order you that we leave what our fathers served, or that we do not do with our money as we please? You are the compassionate, the sane!

Salat was done at three times. Dawn and dusk which are compulsory. The third is part of the night which is optional 'nafla'. Think about it. When did the prophet recite the Quran on the people if it is not the Salat?

NB. Salat is also done by the one who recites the revelations himself because he is also studying the scripture. So the prophets salat is when he recited the Quran on people.

17107 Say Believe in it or do not believe in it. Those who have been given the knowledge before it, when it is recited to them, they fall to their chins prostrating.

ie. when the Quran is recited on them, they listen attentively and humbly that their chins touches their chest.( a sign of humbeness and respect)
1958 Those are the ones whom God has blessed from amongst the prophets from the progeny of Adam, and those We carried with Noah, and from the progeny of Abraham and Israel, and from whom We have guided and chosen. When the revelations of the Almighty are recited to them, they fall down prostrating, and in tears.
same thing here they listen attentively to the recitation and start crying '(

God knows best.

Supernaut

Nice work )

Wakas

peace Rami,

I like it and I have been saying something similar
http//www.mypercept.co.uk/slw.htm

Knowing what is in Al Quran is crucial in applying what is in Al Quran, they go hand in hand.

Also, bro Layth suggested ages ago that there may be some significance to the word before "salat", e.g. "aqamu", that it implied slightly different things depending on what word came before. He never actually broke it down and separated them for others to verify but might be an interesting avenue of approach.

Small correction, in 1071 it is "denying in al deen".

arnoldyasin

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13286.0;do=Bookmark

Rami

peace Rami,

I like it and I have been saying something similar
http//www.mypercept.co.uk/slw.htm

Knowing what is in Al Quran is crucial in applying what is in Al Quran, they go hand in hand.

Also, bro Layth suggested ages ago that there may be some significance to the word before "salat", e.g. "aqamu", that it implied slightly different things depending on what word came before. He never actually broke it down and separated them for others to verify but might be an interesting avenue of approach.

Small correction, in 1071 it is "denying in al deen".

Thanks. Hope someone breaks this down.

Peace.

Rami

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13286.0;do=Bookmark

Thanks for the link.

Hadi

Peace Rami,

Good job, I think your understanding fits perfectly.

Pe

Hadi

Peace,

Hadi

Rami

Peace Rami,

Good job, I think your understanding fits perfectly.

Peace,
Hadi

Thanks and welcome to the Free-minds community welcome

Hope

Salat was done at three times. Dawn and dusk which are compulsory. The third is part of the night which is optional 'nafla'. Think about it. When did the prophet recite the Quran on the people if it is not the Salat?

NB. Salat is also done by the one who recites the revelations himself because he is also studying the scripture. So the prophets salat is when he recited the Quran on people.

17107 Say ?Believe in it or do not believe in it. Those who have been given the knowledge before it, when it is recited to them, they fall to their chins prostrating.?

ie. when the Quran is recited on them, they listen attentively and humbly that their chins touches their chest.( a sign of humbeness and respect)
1958 Those are the ones whom God has blessed from amongst the prophets from the progeny of Adam, and those We carried with Noah, and from the progeny of Abraham and Israel, and from whom We have guided and chosen. When the revelations of the Almighty are recited to them, they fall down prostrating, and in tears.
same thing here they listen attentively to the recitation and start crying '(

God knows best.

Peace all

i depend v much in my understading of salat on these verses

17107 Say ?Believe in it or do not believe in it. Those who have been given the knowledge before it, when it is recited to them, they fall to their chins prostrating.?
17108 And they say ?Praise be to our Lord. Truly, the promise of our Lord was fulfilled.?
2564 And those who stay awake for their Lord, in prostration and standing.

what i do is reading verses from the quraan while standing then prostrate saying the verse 17 108.

But i never experianced crying during my prayer -[

arnoldyasin

Thanks. Hope someone breaks this down.

Peace.

Many persons already did. Look at the Ahmed Ali translation from 1989

107 Things of Common Use
Al-Ma'un Makki

In the name of Allah, most benevolent, ever-merciful.
HAVE YOU SEEN him who denies the Day of Judgement?
2. It is he who pushes the orphan away,
3. And does not induce others to feed the needy.
4. Woe to those who pray
5. But who are oblivious of their moral duties,
6. Who dissimulate
7. And withhold things of common use (from others).

http//www.mlivo.com/translations/Ahmed%20Ali.htm

AlFajr

Peace all,
Thanks for the verses.
I want to understand more about this interpretation. How does it gel with verses like these

339 The angels called to him whilst he was standing, communing, in the temple enclosure ?God gives you good tidings of John, authenticating the word from God, and a master, and steadfast, and a prophet from the upright.?

4102 And if you are with them and you hold the communion for them, then let a group from amongst them stand with you and let them bring their weapons; and when they have prostrated then let them stand guard from behind; and let a group who has not yet communed come and commune with you, and let them be wary and let them bring their weapons with them. The rejecters hope that you would neglect your weapons and goods so they can come upon you in one blow. There is no sin upon you if you are impeded by rainfall, or if you are ill, that you place down your weapons. And be wary. God has prepared for the rejecters a humiliating retribution.

Now, people who say salat is prayer will find this Sura to be illogical. How can you be absent minded from prayer while you are one of those who prayed and what is praying has to do with charity. Others say that Salat is following the divine system.

That does not necessarily rule out prayer. Perhaps being heedless of your "prayer" means you don't do it with sincerity and are doing it to be seen. As these people do not really believe in the system, they also do not give charity etc.

Those are my thoughts.
peace

Rami

Peace,

339 The angels called to him whilst he was standing, communing, in the temple enclosure God gives you good tidings of John, authenticating the word from God, and a master, and steadfast, and a prophet from the upright.

This could be reciting the scripture or praying.

4102 And if you are with them and you hold the communion for them, then let a group from amongst them stand with you and let them bring their weapons; and when they have prostrated then let them stand guard from behind; and let a group who has not yet communed come and commune with you, and let them be wary and let them bring their weapons with them. The rejecters hope that you would neglect your weapons and goods so they can come upon you in one blow. There is no sin upon you if you are impeded by rainfall, or if you are ill, that you place down your weapons. And be wary. God has prepared for the rejecters a humiliating retribution.

Here, the messenger is reciting the scripture to a group of people once they hear it another group comes. If it is praying, why divide into groups? Can't everyone pray on his own? Or could it be they are doing something physical?

That does not necessarily rule out prayer. Perhaps being heedless of your "prayer" means you don't do it with sincerity and are doing it to be seen. As these people do not really believe in the system, they also do not give charity etc.

Possible.

In the name of Allah, most benevolent, ever-merciful.
HAVE YOU SEEN him who denies the Day of Judgement?
2. It is he who pushes the orphan away,
3. And does not induce others to feed the needy.
4. Woe to those who pray
5. But who are oblivious of their moral duties,
6. Who dissimulate
7. And withhold things of common use (from others).

Here Salat became prayer and moral duties! If a word can have multiple meanings like this, we are cooked! eat

i depend v much in my understading of salat on these verses

17107 Say Believe in it or do not believe in it. Those who have been given the knowledge before it, when it is recited to them, they fall to their chins prostrating.
17108 And they say Praise be to our Lord. Truly, the promise of our Lord was fulfilled.
2564 And those who stay awake for their Lord, in prostration and standing.
what i do is reading verses from the quraan while standing then prostrate saying the verse 17 108.
But i never experianced crying during my prayer

Thats a good understanding. But the chin part is weird. Could it be the jewish tradition prostration?
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3YFP5r5x-w
Kinda looks like being arrested by the police.
About the crying, neither do I nope. But it takes time and a good context like Night of Measure, going to war, hard times etc.

Peace.

Hope

Thats a good understanding. But the chin part is weird. Could it be the jewish tradition prostration?

As far as my humble undesratnding to this chin part, that we have to fall untill the chin is to the ground, cause the word KHARA in many verses sound like it is a fall till the ground for eaxmaple.
1626 Those before them have schemed, but God came to their buildings from the foundation, thus the roof fell on top of them, and the retribution came to them from where they did not know.

3414 Then, when We decreed death for him, nothing informed them of his death until a worm kept eating from his staff, so when he fell down, the Jinn realized that if they had known the unseen, they would not have remained in the humiliating retribution.

I noticed that the word kneeling is sometimes associtaed and linked with the word prostration, as if they are the same act, kneeling is falling to the knee, then the chin fall to the ground, it seems to me that the common prostration moslem used to do is near to this understanding.

4829 Mohammed is the messenger of God, and those who are with him are severe against the rejecters, but merciful between themselves. You see them kneeling and prostrating, they seek God's blessings and approval. Their distinction is in their faces, as a result of prostrating. Such is their example in the Torah. And their example in the Injeel is like a plant which shoots out and becomes strong and thick and it stands straight on its trunk, pleasing to the farmers. That He may enrage the rejecters with them. God promises those among them who believe and do good works a forgiveness and a great reward.

I dont belive that kneeling is the bowing sunni and shiia do , i also believe that after reading the verses of the quraan we have to prostrate immedeiately .

this is my understanding so far, if i found another convincing idea, i will take it. sun

i saw the video of the jew prostration, i think it is inconvinient and a sort of a hardship elektro.

peace

Rami

As far as my humble undesratnding to this chin part, that we have to fall untill the chin is to the ground, cause the word KHARA in many verses sound like it is a fall till the ground for eaxmaple.
1626 Those before them have schemed, but God came to their buildings from the foundation, thus the roof fell on top of them, and the retribution came to them from where they did not know.

3414 Then, when We decreed death for him, nothing informed them of his death until a worm kept eating from his staff, so when he fell down, the Jinn realized that if they had known the unseen, they would not have remained in the humiliating retribution.

I noticed that the word kneeling is sometimes associtaed and linked with the word prostration, as if they are the same act, kneeling is falling to the knee, then the chin fall to the ground, it seems to me that the common prostration moslem used to do is near to this understanding.

4829 Mohammed is the messenger of God, and those who are with him are severe against the rejecters, but merciful between themselves. You see them kneeling and prostrating, they seek God's blessings and approval. Their distinction is in their faces, as a result of prostrating. Such is their example in the Torah. And their example in the Injeel is like a plant which shoots out and becomes strong and thick and it stands straight on its trunk, pleasing to the farmers. That He may enrage the rejecters with them. God promises those among them who believe and do good works a forgiveness and a great reward.

I dont belive that kneeling is the bowing sunni and shiia do , i also believe that after reading the verses of the quraan we have to prostrate immedeiately .

this is my understanding so far, if i found another convincing idea, i will take it. sun

i saw the video of the jew prostration, i think it is inconvinient and a sort of a hardship elektro.

peace

A plausible understanding. The word 'kharra' always mean to fall except for this verse
2573 And those who when they are reminded of their Lords verses, they do not fall on them deaf and blind.

How can you fall on them deaf and blind? Did the guy drop dead on the Quran? rotfl This is the opposite of

17107 Say Believe in it or do not believe in it. Those who have been given the knowledge before it, when it is recited to them, they fall to their chins prostrating.

So you can fall in 2 ways - listening to it or turning away from it.
But the physical prostration is fine for now. hail

Peace. peace

Hope

But the physical prostration is fine for now. hail

Peace. peace

I think there are verses in the quran where prostration sound to be a physical act, i will share with u some.

4102 And if you are with them and you hold the communion for them, then let a group from amongst them stand with you and let them bring their weapons; and when they have prostrated then let them stand guard from behind; and let a group who has not yet communed come and commune with you, and let them be wary and let them bring their weapons with them.

4829 Their distinction is in their faces, as a result of prostrating.

5040 And from the night glorify Him, and after prostrating.

6842 The Day will come when they will be exposed, and they will be required to prostrate, but they will be unable to.

399 Is one better who is dutiful during the night, prostrating and standing, fearing the Hereafter, and seeking the mercy of his Lord? Say ?Are those who know equal to those who do not know?? Only those who possess understanding will remember.

124 When Joseph said to his father ?My father, I have seen eleven planets and the sun and the moon, I saw them yielding to me.?

peace

Rami

I think there are verses in the quran where prostration sound to be a physical act, i will share with u some.

4102 And if you are with them and you hold the communion for them, then let a group from amongst them stand with you and let them bring their weapons; and when they have prostrated then let them stand guard from behind; and let a group who has not yet communed come and commune with you, and let them be wary and let them bring their weapons with them.

4829 Their distinction is in their faces, as a result of prostrating.

5040 And from the night glorify Him, and after prostrating.

6842 The Day will come when they will be exposed, and they will be required to prostrate, but they will be unable to.

399 Is one better who is dutiful during the night, prostrating and standing, fearing the Hereafter, and seeking the mercy of his Lord? Say Are those who know equal to those who do not know? Only those who possess understanding will remember.

124 When Joseph said to his father My father, I have seen eleven planets and the sun and the moon, I saw them yielding to me.

peace

Peace Hope,

Thanks for the verses and I agree that there is some form of physical prostration involved.

Peace.

afridi220

3414 Then, when We decreed death for him, nothing informed them of his death until a worm kept eating from his staff, so when he fell down, the Jinn realized that if they had known the unseen, they would not have remained in the humiliating retribution.

For how long he was standing with his staff, for few hrs or for years and the jinns did not notice that he was not praying etc o

Alen

For how long he was standing with his staff, for few hrs or for years and the jinns did not notice that he was not praying etc

Peace,
Respectfully.

God knows best.
My guess would be that they were eating it in and out and at some point he simply fell.
God knows best and may He bless us all.

Glory be to our God.
Peace.

Mr_Deen

I love that verse of the Quran.