Salat according to Chapter 107
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Thats a good understanding. But the chin part is weird. Could it be the jewish tradition prostration?
As far as my humble undesratnding to this chin part, that we have to fall untill the chin is to the ground, cause the word KHARA in many verses sound like it is a fall till the ground for eaxmaple.
1626 Those before them have schemed, but God came to their buildings from the foundation, thus the roof fell on top of them, and the retribution came to them from where they did not know.3414 Then, when We decreed death for him, nothing informed them of his death until a worm kept eating from his staff, so when he fell down, the Jinn realized that if they had known the unseen, they would not have remained in the humiliating retribution.
I noticed that the word kneeling is sometimes associtaed and linked with the word prostration, as if they are the same act, kneeling is falling to the knee, then the chin fall to the ground, it seems to me that the common prostration moslem used to do is near to this understanding.
4829 Mohammed is the messenger of God, and those who are with him are severe against the rejecters, but merciful between themselves. You see them kneeling and prostrating, they seek God's blessings and approval. Their distinction is in their faces, as a result of prostrating. Such is their example in the Torah. And their example in the Injeel is like a plant which shoots out and becomes strong and thick and it stands straight on its trunk, pleasing to the farmers. That He may enrage the rejecters with them. God promises those among them who believe and do good works a forgiveness and a great reward.
I dont belive that kneeling is the bowing sunni and shiia do , i also believe that after reading the verses of the quraan we have to prostrate immedeiately .
this is my understanding so far, if i found another convincing idea, i will take it. sun
i saw the video of the jew prostration, i think it is inconvinient and a sort of a hardship elektro.
peace
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As far as my humble undesratnding to this chin part, that we have to fall untill the chin is to the ground, cause the word KHARA in many verses sound like it is a fall till the ground for eaxmaple.
1626 Those before them have schemed, but God came to their buildings from the foundation, thus the roof fell on top of them, and the retribution came to them from where they did not know.3414 Then, when We decreed death for him, nothing informed them of his death until a worm kept eating from his staff, so when he fell down, the Jinn realized that if they had known the unseen, they would not have remained in the humiliating retribution.
I noticed that the word kneeling is sometimes associtaed and linked with the word prostration, as if they are the same act, kneeling is falling to the knee, then the chin fall to the ground, it seems to me that the common prostration moslem used to do is near to this understanding.
4829 Mohammed is the messenger of God, and those who are with him are severe against the rejecters, but merciful between themselves. You see them kneeling and prostrating, they seek God's blessings and approval. Their distinction is in their faces, as a result of prostrating. Such is their example in the Torah. And their example in the Injeel is like a plant which shoots out and becomes strong and thick and it stands straight on its trunk, pleasing to the farmers. That He may enrage the rejecters with them. God promises those among them who believe and do good works a forgiveness and a great reward.
I dont belive that kneeling is the bowing sunni and shiia do , i also believe that after reading the verses of the quraan we have to prostrate immedeiately .
this is my understanding so far, if i found another convincing idea, i will take it. sun
i saw the video of the jew prostration, i think it is inconvinient and a sort of a hardship elektro.
peace
A plausible understanding. The word 'kharra' always mean to fall except for this verse
2573 And those who when they are reminded of their Lords verses, they do not fall on them deaf and blind.How can you fall on them deaf and blind? Did the guy drop dead on the Quran? rotfl This is the opposite of
17107 Say Believe in it or do not believe in it. Those who have been given the knowledge before it, when it is recited to them, they fall to their chins prostrating.
So you can fall in 2 ways - listening to it or turning away from it.
But the physical prostration is fine for now. hailPeace. peace
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But the physical prostration is fine for now. hail
Peace. peace
I think there are verses in the quran where prostration sound to be a physical act, i will share with u some.
4102 And if you are with them and you hold the communion for them, then let a group from amongst them stand with you and let them bring their weapons; and when they have prostrated then let them stand guard from behind; and let a group who has not yet communed come and commune with you, and let them be wary and let them bring their weapons with them.
4829 Their distinction is in their faces, as a result of prostrating.
5040 And from the night glorify Him, and after prostrating.
6842 The Day will come when they will be exposed, and they will be required to prostrate, but they will be unable to.
399 Is one better who is dutiful during the night, prostrating and standing, fearing the Hereafter, and seeking the mercy of his Lord? Say ?Are those who know equal to those who do not know?? Only those who possess understanding will remember.
124 When Joseph said to his father ?My father, I have seen eleven planets and the sun and the moon, I saw them yielding to me.?
peace
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I think there are verses in the quran where prostration sound to be a physical act, i will share with u some.
4102 And if you are with them and you hold the communion for them, then let a group from amongst them stand with you and let them bring their weapons; and when they have prostrated then let them stand guard from behind; and let a group who has not yet communed come and commune with you, and let them be wary and let them bring their weapons with them.
4829 Their distinction is in their faces, as a result of prostrating.
5040 And from the night glorify Him, and after prostrating.
6842 The Day will come when they will be exposed, and they will be required to prostrate, but they will be unable to.
399 Is one better who is dutiful during the night, prostrating and standing, fearing the Hereafter, and seeking the mercy of his Lord? Say Are those who know equal to those who do not know? Only those who possess understanding will remember.
124 When Joseph said to his father My father, I have seen eleven planets and the sun and the moon, I saw them yielding to me.
peace
Peace Hope,
Thanks for the verses and I agree that there is some form of physical prostration involved.
Peace.
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3414 Then, when We decreed death for him, nothing informed them of his death until a worm kept eating from his staff, so when he fell down, the Jinn realized that if they had known the unseen, they would not have remained in the humiliating retribution.
For how long he was standing with his staff, for few hrs or for years and the jinns did not notice that he was not praying etc o
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For how long he was standing with his staff, for few hrs or for years and the jinns did not notice that he was not praying etc
Peace,
Respectfully.God knows best.
My guess would be that they were eating it in and out and at some point he simply fell.
God knows best and may He bless us all.Glory be to our God.
Peace. -
Peace,
Respectfully.God knows best.
My guess would be that they were eating it in and out and at some point he simply fell.
God knows best and may He bless us all.Glory be to our God.
Peace.The worms were eating the staff it means it tokk very long time, my question is why the jinns did not notice that soliman is not moving , not eating not praying etc. O0
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The worms were eating the staff it means it tokk very long time, my question is why the jinns did not notice that soliman is not moving , not eating not praying etc. O0
Peace,
Respectfully.God knows best.
Only God knows best and we know very little.
Always trust God and rely on Him, that's the best investment.Glory be to our God,
Glory be to our God,
Glory be to our God,
Peace. -
Peace,
Respectfully.God knows best.
Only God knows best and we know very little.
Always trust God and rely on Him, that's the best investment.Glory be to our God,
Glory be to our God,
Glory be to our God,
Peace.I invested in God from my Birth i think im lucky one in that case. ;D
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peace aalmakto, all,
339 is the verb form, thus one should study the verb form.
4102 is often cited for evidence of "salat" meaning prayer when in reality several Classical Arabic meanings of "salat" could be used in this verse and sjd commonly translated as "prostrate" is not so, according to The Quran.
Many are still under the mistaken impression sjd means "prostrate" when The Quranic evidence is against this meaning. The topic of sjd has been discussed in significant detail in this forum. Unfortunately, like many topics, it has been discussed so much that quality discussion is mixed among poor quality discussion.
It is also unfortunate that the "free-minds" translation still propogates this meaning.
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Peace Hope,
Where is the "and"/"wa" between kneeling/"rukka3an" and prostrating/"sujjadan" in 4829 as you have translated?
The phrase is "rukka3an sujjadan" where "sujjadan" is the adjective of "rukka3an" meaning "obediently humbling" or "obediently kneeling". When taken as a physical act, it suggests both as one continuous action, i.e. kneeling and then prostrating to the chin". "You see them obediently kneeling" implies a physical kneeling.
In 17107, it is "yakhirroon lil athqaan", meaning "they fall to their chins". Falling to the chin does not mean touching the chin to the ground but means lowering the chin from a higher point to a lower point but not necessarily touching the ground. Thus lowering one's face to any degree towards the ground without touching it would satisfy the physical sujud according to the qur'anic terminology. In fact, bending one's neck until the chin touches the chest would satisfy it too. Otherwise how would you fall to the ground in prostration every time you hear God's aayaat being recited? For example while crossing a road you hear God's aayaat being recited on a loud speaker; how will you perform the physical sujud?
17107 Say ?Believe in it or do not believe in it. Those who have been given the knowledge before it, when it is recited to them, they fall to their chins prostrating.?
1958 Those are the ones whom God has blessed from amongst the prophets from the progeny of Adam, and those We carried with Noah, and from the progeny of Abraham and Israel, and from whom We have guided and chosen. When the revelations of the Almighty are recited to them, they fall down prostrating, and in tears.
3215 The only people who believe in Our revelations are those whom when they are reminded by them, they fall prostrating, and they glorify the praise of their Lord, and they are not arrogant.
Of course, where ever the physical sujud to God is implied according to the context in al-qur'an, the mental component of obedience while performing the physical sujud is also implied and is the more important component.
Other verses where sujud can only be physical are the following
4137 And from among His signs are the night and the day, and the sun and the moon. Do not prostrate to the sun, nor the moon; you shall prostrate to God who created them, if it is truly Him you serve.
2724 ?And I found her and her people prostrating to the sun instead of God! And the devil had made their work appear good to them, so he kept them away from the path, for they are not being guided.?
How can one mentally obey the sun or the moon?
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Peace Hope,
Where is the "and"/"wa" between kneeling/"rukka3an" and prostrating/"sujjadan" in 4829 as you have translated?
The phrase is "rukka3an sujjadan" where "sujjadan" is the adjective of "rukka3an" meaning "obediently humbling" or "obediently kneeling". When taken as a physical act, it suggests both as one continuous action, i.e. kneeling and then prostrating to the chin". "You see them obediently kneeling" implies a physical kneeling.
In 17107, it is "yakhirroon lil athqaan", meaning "they fall to their chins". Falling to the chin does not mean touching the chin to the ground but means lowering the chin from a higher point to a lower point but not necessarily touching the ground. Thus lowering one's face to any degree towards the ground without touching it would satisfy the physical sujud according to the qur'anic terminology. In fact, bending one's neck until the chin touches the chest would satisfy it too. Otherwise how would you fall to the ground in prostration every time you hear God's aayaat being recited? For example while crossing a road you hear God's aayaat being recited on a loud speaker; how will you perform the physical sujud?
17107 Say Believe in it or do not believe in it. Those who have been given the knowledge before it, when it is recited to them, they fall to their chins prostrating.
1958 Those are the ones whom God has blessed from amongst the prophets from the progeny of Adam, and those We carried with Noah, and from the progeny of Abraham and Israel, and from whom We have guided and chosen. When the revelations of the Almighty are recited to them, they fall down prostrating, and in tears.
3215 The only people who believe in Our revelations are those whom when they are reminded by them, they fall prostrating, and they glorify the praise of their Lord, and they are not arrogant.
Of course, where ever the physical sujud to God is implied according to the context in al-qur'an, the mental component of obedience while performing the physical sujud is also implied and is the more important component.
Other verses where sujud can only be physical are the following
4137 And from among His signs are the night and the day, and the sun and the moon. Do not prostrate to the sun, nor the moon; you shall prostrate to God who created them, if it is truly Him you serve.
2724 And I found her and her people prostrating to the sun instead of God! And the devil had made their work appear good to them, so he kept them away from the path, for they are not being guided.
How can one mentally obey the sun or the moon?
Peace,
So the word 'sujood' have different meanings depending what the sujood is to. If it is a physical object, it is a physical prostration. If it is a person, so it is doing its will and commands. If it is a recitation or a sound, so its listening to it attentively etc.
17107 Say Believe in it or do not believe in it. Those who have been given the knowledge before it, when it is recited to them, they fall to their chins prostrating.
1958 Those are the ones whom God has blessed from amongst the prophets from the progeny of Adam, and those We carried with Noah, and from the progeny of Abraham and Israel, and from whom We have guided and chosen. When the revelations of the Almighty are recited to them, they fall down prostrating, and in tears.
3215 The only people who believe in Our revelations are those whom when they are reminded by them, they fall prostrating, and they glorify the praise of their Lord, and they are not arrogant.The people above most probably did the command below
7204 And if the Quran is being recited, then listen to it and pay attention, that you may receive mercy. ie. sujood!
Peace.
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Peace Hope,
Where is the "and"/"wa" between kneeling/"rukka3an" and prostrating/"sujjadan" in 4829 as you have translated?
The phrase is "rukka3an sujjadan" where "sujjadan" is the adjective of "rukka3an" meaning "obediently humbling" or "obediently kneeling". When taken as a physical act, it suggests both as one continuous action, i.e. kneeling and then prostrating to the chin". "You see them obediently kneeling" implies a physical kneeling.
Peace truthseeker
thanks for your intersting comment, as i said in the begining this is just my humble understaing, i read a lot about how to perform Salat based on quraan alone here in this site and in a very few arabic sites., no one can claim that he has reached the full understainding, but we just try do what convince our mind and soul more. till we reach a better one.
yes u are right there in no AND, yeah it is written wrongely in the english quranic translation in Free minds, i did copy and past it. i think kneeling and prostration can be 2 components of one act, one fall to the knee then prosterate ( resmbling the common sujoud (moslems) do).
In 17107, it is "yakhirroon lil athqaan", meaning "they fall to their chins". Falling to the chin does not mean touching the chin to the ground but means lowering the chin from a higher point to a lower point but not necessarily touching the ground. Thus lowering one's face to any degree towards the ground without touching it would satisfy the physical sujud according to the qur'anic terminology. In fact, bending one's neck until the chin touches the chest would satisfy it too. Otherwise how would you fall to the ground in prostration every time you hear God's aayaat being recited? For example while crossing a road you hear God's aayaat being recited on a loud speaker; how will you perform the physical sujud?
17107 Say Believe in it or do not believe in it. Those who have been given the knowledge before it, when it is recited to them, they fall to their chins prostrating.
1958 Those are the ones whom God has blessed from amongst the prophets from the progeny of Adam, and those We carried with Noah, and from the progeny of Abraham and Israel, and from whom We have guided and chosen. When the revelations of the Almighty are recited to them, they fall down prostrating, and in tears.
3215 The only people who believe in Our revelations are those whom when they are reminded by them, they fall prostrating, and they glorify the praise of their Lord, and they are not arrogant.
there are some vesres where the word KHARA give the impression of something is falling dramatically (ي from a high point to the lowest point which could be the groud. look at this verses
7143 So when Moses came to Our appointed time, and his Lord spoke to him, he said ?My Lord, let me look upon you.? He said ?You will not see Me, but look upon the mountain, if it stays in its place then you will see Me.? So when his Lord revealed Himself to the mountain, He caused it to crumble; thus Moses fell unconscious. When he awoke, he said ?Glory be to You, I repent to You and I am the first of those who believe.
1626 Those before them have schemed, but God came to their buildings from the foundation, thus the roof fell on top of them, and the retribution came to them from where they did not know.
2231 Monotheists to God, not setting up anything with Him. And whosoever sets-up partners with God, then it is as if he has fallen from the sky and the birds snatch him or the wind takes him to a place far off.
3414 Then, when We decreed death for him, nothing informed them of his death until a worm kept eating from his staff, so when he fell down, the Jinn realized that if they had known the unseen, they would not have remained in the humiliating retribution.
These examples God mentioned give me the impression of falling down to the lowest point we can reach. i dont see that just lowering the chin to the level of the chest goes with the word Khara, i think it goes more with the chn falling to the lowest point which is the ground.
For sure it have other meaning like complete, unquestionable obediance to god words., but it also have a physical meaning.May God guide us more.
peace
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Peace Hope,
If it meant "to the lowest point" then it should have been "yakhirroon 3ala al-athqaan"/they fall upon their chins. It is "yakhirroon li al-athqaan"/they fall to/with their chins, which does not imply "to the lowest point" although it could include that.
In the examples you gave, in 1626 it says "3alayhim"/upon them, which means on their persons, and not the lowest point which would be the ground. In 2231, it says "fell from sky", which does not imply the lowest point. Birds can snatch something from the air before it hits the ground too. Wind can blow something from air before it hits ground too.
If you see the meaning of "kharra" in classical Arabic dictionaries, they give the meaning of "fall down from a higher point to a lower point", and not "fall from a higher point to the lowest point" and not necessarily "to the ground". Please see page 351 under "kh-ra-ra in PRL http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm
The context determines if it is to the ground, for example 7143 and 3414, or from a higher point to a lower point, for example 1626, 2231, and 17107.
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Peace Rami,
So the word 'sujood' have different meanings depending what the sujood is to. If it is a physical object, it is a physical prostration. If it is a person, so it is doing its will and commands. If it is a recitation or a sound, so its listening to it attentively etc.
17107 Say ?Believe in it or do not believe in it. Those who have been given the knowledge before it, when it is recited to them, they fall to their chins prostrating.?
1958 Those are the ones whom God has blessed from amongst the prophets from the progeny of Adam, and those We carried with Noah, and from the progeny of Abraham and Israel, and from whom We have guided and chosen. When the revelations of the Almighty are recited to them, they fall down prostrating, and in tears.
3215 The only people who believe in Our revelations are those whom when they are reminded by them, they fall prostrating, and they glorify the praise of their Lord, and they are not arrogant.The people above most probably did the command below
7204 And if the Qur?an is being recited, then listen to it and pay attention, that you may receive mercy. ie. sujood!
When sujud is to an inanimate object, for example sun and moon, it is only physical (2724, 4137) but if it is to a living being, it is mental obedience + physical. 17107 combined with 7204 would mean a physical sujud + mental obedience with understanding (hearing and obeying).
According to your understanding in which you equate 7204 exactly with 17107, sujud is only "listening with attention" and will not include the obedience part. So those verses cannot be exactly equated. Sujud is listening with attention + obedience of the commands one listened to + physical sujud to the chins.
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If you see the meaning of "kharra" in classical Arabic dictionaries, they give the meaning of "fall down from a higher point to a lower point", and not "fall from a higher point to the lowest point" and not necessarily "to the ground". Please see page 351 under "kh-ra-ra in PRL http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm
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Peace truthseeker
yes, right, it is not necessery falling to the ground, but what i meant, Kharaa means keep on falling till something hit or stop, like if one throw an object from a building it can fall till the ground or it can fall on the roof of a parking car or on someone head, according, but it keep falling till something stop it.
peace
