The Hypocricy of "Islamic" Banks.
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Peace Wakas
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Excess wealth must be kept open for those whose basic needs are not met (2219).How is your statement supported by the verse you cite?
(2219) states that we should spend what is beyond our needs. I take this to mean what we don't need to support ourselves &
families in terms of the basic needs of food, clothing & shelter. This is supported by the fact that God has promised the provision of all
creatures. Since according to (9111), our wealth & lives belong to God & are left in trust with us, we can only spend it in the way God
intends us (i.e. fulfilling His promise to all creatures).It may, however, serve us well to take a few steps back to discuss this. If you'll indulge me, I'd like to pose a few question to you in order
to take this discussion further.- Do you accept that God provides sustenance for all creatures?
- Do you accept that He does not deliver sustenance to each individual directly?
- Do you accept that the lives & wealth of "mu'min" are only left in trust with them?
- Do you accept that fulfilment of trust in a trait of "mu'min"?
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Since our wealth does not belong to us, but to God, we should be using His wealth to meet the basic needs of everyone (i.e. acting as His "khalifah" on earth by distributing that which He has provided for all living creatures) before we use it for anything else.We cannot look at savings & how it is permissible until nobody is wanting for basic needs such as food, clothing & shelter.
Whilst it may be a nice sentiment, and perhaps even true if living in a Quranic society, I would need to see more evidence before agreeing with this position.
We should always be striving to form a Quranic society as best we can, however small that society may be. For more evidenc, please resond
to my questions above that we may be able to investigate this & I think the Truth will be apparent if we are sincere in our search.Imraan
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We should always be striving to form a Quranic society as best we can, however small that society may be. For more evidenc, please resond
to my questions above that we may be able to investigate this & I think the Truth will be apparent if we are sincere in our search.
ImraanPeace,
Respectfully.A society that lives totally according to The Quran already exists, we just need to be a majority so that we can change the existing country into Real Islamic country, God willing.
Like USA, Europe, ....etc. God willing.Glory be to our God,
Glory be to our God.Peace.
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Peace Alan
Peace,
Respectfully.A society that lives totally according to The Quran already exists, we just need to be a majority so that we can change the existing country into Real Islamic country, God willing.
Like USA, Europe, ....etc. God willing.Glory be to our God,
Glory be to our God.Peace.
Can you point out this society to me?
Imraan
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peace Imraan,
(2219) states that we should spend what is beyond our needs. I take this to mean what we don't need to support ourselves &
families in terms of the basic needs of food, clothing & shelter.That is your interpretation, a possibility, which is not a solid one I might add.
This is supported by the fact that God has promised the provision of all creatures.
That doesn't support your position at all. It more likely means that God has provided us with all the sustenance we need on earth and it is up to us how we use it. It is a bit like He has shown us the two paths (right and wrong) and is up to us which we take.
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Do you accept that God provides sustenance for all creatures?
Yes. -
Do you accept that He does not deliver sustenance to each individual directly?
No, e.g. pick a fruit from a tree and eat it..... how does that fit with your view? -
Do you accept that the lives & wealth of "mu'min" are only left in trust with them?
I'll say yes. -
Do you accept that fulfilment of trust in a trait of "mu'min"?
Yes.
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Peace,
Respectfully.A society that lives totally according to The Quran already exists, we just need to be a majority so that we can change the existing country into Real Islamic country, God willing.
Like USA, Europe, ....etc. God willing.Glory be to our God,
Glory be to our God.Peace.
Our God? What is that? Sounds like paganism to me.
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Peace Wakas
(2219) states that we should spend what is beyond our needs. I take this to mean what we don't need to support ourselves &
families in terms of the basic needs of food, clothing & shelter.That is your interpretation, a possibility, which is not a solid one I might add.
What I mean by this is not that we shouldn't work & expect everything to be provided for us. I added to this in my previous post saying that (9111) states that our wealth & lives are only entrusted to us & in fact belong top God. It would be grossly unfair, in my opinion, to value one individual's work over another. Qarun stated that his wealth was given to him because of some knowledge he had (287. Also looking at (3949), it becomes clear that knowledge is not the basis for a right to more wealth. All people are created will the equal right to the provisions God has provided. In fact, (599) clearly directs us in how we should traet those in need, preferring their need to ours if their needs is more pressing. So if we are to prefer the needs of others to our own when their need is more pressing even if poverty is our lot, how can we in good concious claim that once our basic needs are met & there are others in need,that we can invest/save/purchase luxuries, etc. before taking care of their needs? I therefore feel that the Quran is closer to the socialist economy, which puts forward that each works according to ability & is remunerated according need, than to a free market economy.
This is supported by the fact that God has promised the provision of all creatures.
That doesn't support your position at all. It more likely means that God has provided us with all the sustenance we need on earth and it is up to us how we use it. It is a bit like He has shown us the two paths (right and wrong) and is up to us which we take.
I believe it to fully support my position in that your provision is not dependant on your ability to work (physically, intellectually, or in any other form), but rather on the fact that God has promised provision to all creatures.
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Do you accept that God provides sustenance for all creatures?
Yes. -
Do you accept that He does not deliver sustenance to each individual directly?
No, e.g. pick a fruit from a tree and eat it..... how does that fit with your view? -
Do you accept that the lives & wealth of "mu'min" are only left in trust with them?
I'll say yes. -
Do you accept that fulfilment of trust in a trait of "mu'min"?
Yes.
As to your answer in the negative on point 2, I think you may be limiting your view on sustenance, since to sustain life food & water are essetial, but so is clothing, shelter, medical facilities, etc. As for "e.g. pick a fruit from a tree and eat it..... how does that fit with your view?", God provides the fruit on the tree & you should have the right to pick it, but if someone "owns" the tree, you could be arrested. Also, if we relied only on produce which is not under anyone's "ownership", there would not be enough produce available to fulfil the needs of all creatures today & we would be calling God a liar. By available I mean that everyone has a right to it. Instead God has provided us with the ways & means to discover the technology required to grow food in more abundance to satisfy the needs of the world today.
Again, it is important to remember that sustenance is more than just food & water. A look at (3647) with regard to God not providing to each individual directly may provide a change of opinion.
Imraan
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Peace Wakas
peace Imraan,
You asked me 4 questions, I answered. I asked you one, and you avoided answering it.
I'm not interested in that type of discussion.
My apologies if I have not addressed your question. I am not sure which question you think I have avoided answering.
If it was the one you put foward below, I think I have responded.
2. Do you accept that He does not deliver sustenance to each individual directly?
No, e.g. pick a fruit from a tree and eat it..... how does that fit with your view?If you refer to the question you put forward in an earlier post, which I have reproduced below, then I think I have responded to that as well.
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Excess wealth must be kept open for those whose basic needs are not met (2219).How is your statement supported by the verse you cite?
If you find that either of the responses are inadequate, I will endeavour to make another more satisfactory response. If it is some other question that I ahve avoided, it is unintentional as I'm not sure what it is. If the latter is the case please restate the question I have missed and I will respond.
Imraan
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peace Imraan,
It was this one
- Do you accept that He does not deliver sustenance to each individual directly?
No, e.g. pick a fruit from a tree and eat it..... how does that fit with your view?
You avoided answering by adding your own made up conditions. The question is simple if no-one owns the tree, and someone picks fruit from it and eats it, what does that do to your view of "God does not provide sustenance to us directly" argument? Does it disprove it or not? If not, please explain clearly as to why not.
- Do you accept that He does not deliver sustenance to each individual directly?
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Peace Wakas
peace Imraan,
It was this one
You avoided answering by adding your own made up conditions. The question is simple if no-one owns the tree, and someone picks fruit from it and eats it, what does that do to your view of "God does not provide sustenance to us directly" argument? Does it disprove it or not? If not, please explain clearly as to why not.
It does not disprove my statement at all. If my statement was "God does not provide fruit that grows on a tree to each individual directly", then maybe it would disprove my statement.
Also, my question was
2. Do you accept that He does not deliver sustenance to each individual directly? In order to clarify my question, I'll just mention the followingMaybe I should have used the word "rizq" rather than sustenance, as it would, I think give it a broader meaning. I am referring to God deciding that this person will have so much "rizq", and that person will have this much "rizq". Also, if as you say, God provides "rizq" for all His creatures, & does so for each individual directly, there shouldn't be anyone starving in the world. Yet there are, so the "rizq" provided by God is provided generally, not individually.
As far as the accusation you have made regarding my "own made up conditions", maybe you can point out which of the conditions you consider "made up" or "non-Quranic", and I can then either provide proof of its Quranic basis or concede that it is figment of my imagination / traditional upbringing / preconcieved idea, etc.
Imraan
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peace Imraan,
You can broaden the meaning if you like. I will just make my question broader, and add perhaps a cave for shelter, fur from an animal for clothing, sunlight, or oxygen to breathe in etc.
As far as the accusation you have made regarding my "own made up conditions", maybe you can point out which of the conditions you consider "made up" or "non-Quranic", and I can then either provide proof of its Quranic basis or concede that it is figment of my imagination / traditional upbringing / preconcieved idea, etc.
I was referring to your reply below, in which you brought in conditions of ownership and discussed method of growing etc, all of which were irrelevant to what I asked
God provides the fruit on the tree & you should have the right to pick it, but if someone "owns" the tree, you could be arrested. Also, if we relied only on produce which is not under anyone's "ownership", there would not be enough produce available to fulfil the needs of all creatures today & we would be calling God a liar. By available I mean that everyone has a right to it. Instead God has provided us with the ways & means to discover the technology required to grow food in more abundance to satisfy the needs of the world today.
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Peace Wakas
You can broaden the meaning if you like. I will just make my question broader, and add perhaps a cave for shelter, fur from an animal for clothing, sunlight, or oxygen to breathe in etc.
Ok point taken. In that case, however broad the meaning, I still maintain that God does not deliver rizq to each individual directly. If this was the case, how do you account for people who are homeless & starving?
I was referring to your reply below, in which you brought in conditions of ownership and discussed method of growing etc, all of which were irrelevant to what I asked
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God provides the fruit on the tree & you should have the right to pick it, but if someone "owns" the tree, you could be arrested. Also, if we relied only on produce which is not under anyone's "ownership", there would not be enough produce available to fulfil the needs of all creatures today & we would be calling God a liar. By available I mean that everyone has a right to it. Instead God has provided us with the ways & means to discover the technology required to grow food in more abundance to satisfy the needs of the world today.I don't see it as irrelevant to the question in that ownership directly affects the accessibility to what God has provided. In my opinion, God has provided the means by which life is sustained, whether it be a wild fruit or cultivated fruit (or any other basic need in whatever form). The knowledge & processes that bring about these means for the sustenance of life are essential to the question of whether not God delivers rizq to each individual directly (ownership of knowledge, technology, etc.). This is after all one of the reasons for trade. If everything I required to sustain my life were delivered to me directly, what need would there be for me to be pursue a means to earn a living other than acquiring non-essentials.
As far as it's Quranic validity goes, there is the aspect of ownership of food resources, as well as the right of every creature to have access to the means of life sutenance.
As for the ownership of food resources, it is clearly a concept contrary to the Quran. (5510-13) clearly demostrates the fact that food resources are to be available to all. (1720) indiactes that the gifts of God are not to be restricted and are for all creatures. Therefore nobody has a right to put a gate to food resources creating a mentality of mine & yours. The story of Salih & the she camel in (773, 1164, 26155 & 1164) are good indications of the freedom of access to food resources & the land which belongs to God.
I hope that I have answered some of your questions & concerns in a better manner & would at this point put forward to you the following
Does (3647) not indicate that God does not deliver rizq to each individual directly?
Imraan
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peace Imraan,
If this was the case, how do you account for people who are homeless & starving?
Did I or The Quran say that God delivers all the 'rizq' (e.g. food, clothing, shelter) we need directly to us as if by magic without any effort on our part? No, as this is illogical.
Let me make it clear for you
I am saying God has provided all that we need to live on earth, and we are left to choose on how to use such resources or access them. Some will have more than others, hence a duty upon those who have to give to those who do not.
As for the ownership of food resources, it is clearly a concept contrary to the Quran. (5510-13) clearly demostrates the fact that food resources are to be available to all.
I never read past this statement of yours, as it demonstrates what you've done with almost all your referencing, i.e. give your view then attempt to back it up with an extrapolated interpretation of a verse.
It is clear you have a bias.
peace out.
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Peace Wakas,
Did I or The Quran say that God delivers all the 'rizq' (e.g. food, clothing, shelter) we need directly to us as if by magic without any effort on our part? No, as this is illogical.
I agree with this. The reason for asking the question I did, was to remove the illogical concept from the discussion because while you do agree that this is illogical, there are actually those who don't.
I am saying God has provided all that we need to live on earth, and we are left to choose on how to use such resources or access them. Some will have more than others, hence a duty upon those who have to give to those who do not.
This too, I agree with. If this is the case, do you then take the view that it is the duty of a mu'min to take care of the needs of others once his needs are met, but before he invests for his future? Or do you take the view that a mu'min is free to invest freely while others around him still find their basic needs not being met, as long as they feel they have contributed enough, or any other view that you may hold in this regard.
I never read past this statement of yours, as it demonstrates what you've done with almost all your referencing, i.e. give your view then attempt to back it up with an extrapolated interpretation of a verse.
My referencing is obviously explained by my understanding of those verses. To say that I have a bias is to assume that my research is based on a preconceived notion of some sort. This is an assumption without warrant since you do not know what research has gone into developing my view.
I grew up in a free maket society. To keep holding the view that a free market society is closer to being Quranic than the view I hold would be the easiest & most convenient thing in the world for me. Rather than making sweeping generalisations about my biased understanding of Quranic verses, you should present your biased understanding of the same & we could then either come to a more common understanding or agree to disagree.
You haven't presented an alternate understanding of any of the verses I have quoted, except one. I am not here to make any attempt to push my understanding on any issue. I would simply like to find a broad base of views that would contribute to my understanding of the Quran. In fact, I posted previously on thjis forum regarding this issue & did not receive many replies at all. The essence of that post was that in my research I have found that a Socialist economy is closer to the Quranic economic system than a free market economy. I wasn't (and still am not) sure if my research indicated this because proponents of Socialist style economies in view of Quran had simply presented the facts in a more commanding way with references of Quran while free market proponents that I have read seem to simply rehash modern economic theory in trying to justify their view. In addition to this, my own thought process may be flawed in the way I have reached my conclusions. I am totally open to & would in fact welcome a proper Quranically referenced view on why the Quran supports a free market economy, whether it be by way of a link to an article that someone else may have written or a presentation of your personal view on the subject.
Imraan
