Lengthen Your Garments?
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PaladinGirl, if you want to get a better insight into the aya in question read the ones before and nes after.
33.57 talks about thos who annoy the profet. It is a context
33.58 about those who annoy believing men and believing women.More of the context
33.59 is in the same context. To avoid that they be harmed on the ground that they were not known, gives a hint as a way to be known and thus not be harmed, then
33.50 Warns the hypocrites and those in whose heart is a diesease, understandably those who wanted to harm the women, annoy the Profet and annoy the believing men and women that if they do not desist the believers will have to fight them and drive them out of the cityYou may go on reading and verify that this aya has nothig to do with women's dress but with a situation of open enmity against the believers. The quran is being abused when it is taken out of context and used as a comand for women to dress in a certain way.
Verify for yourself.
Salaam
Exactly. This is also my position.
PaladinGirl, please bear in mind that no tight clothing is allowed, thus a short sleeve shirt may not be allowed due to this "no tight clothing" clause. In such borderline cases, one must use their own reasoning and as I said covering oneself in the garment of righteousness (metaphorical) is best.
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Peace W,
peace t,
I will take that to mean you are unable to answer the question until proven otherwise.
And I will take that to mean that you have no idea what that verse is saying. These tactics won't work on me
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Peace
It annoys me when I ask someone a question and they skirt the issue. Truth, you were asked a question which you did not answer and now you are resorting to guessing at one's ignorance. Let's be civil and stop taking the wrong exemplars .
Kill your ego .
Joe
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Peace Joe,
Wakas asked me how lengthening the garment will cause one to be recognized. God says that lengthening the garment will cause one to be recognized. I did not author that verse but God did. When God says something and Mr. Wakas wants to know how, then shouldn't God be asked? If I had authored that verse then I would have loved to answer that question!
It is obvious from Wakas' response that he is the one having ego problems because he is assuming things about me without any basis. Silence to a question does not mean one does not know the answer. Even God asks us to disregard vain talk, so does that mean that if we disregard vain talk then we don't have an answer for that?
2855 And if they come across vain talk, they disregard it and say ?To us are our deeds, and to you is your deeds. Peace be upon you. We do not seek the ignorant.?
All I said was God gave that command so go ask Him how. I would request you to issue the same kind of response to Wakas as you did to me otherwise I will assume it to be discrimination. Oops, I shouldn't be assuming things now should I? So forget about it P
Actually, Mr. Wakas resorted to guessing that I don't know the answer, i.e. guessing at my ignorance, but you did not issue a response to him when he did the same exact thing. So don't forget about it. I expect a response from you to Wakas, otherwise it WILL be discrimination. )
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Peace everyone,
PaladinGirl, if you want to get a better insight into the aya in question read the ones before and nes after.
33.57 talks about thos who annoy the profet. It is a context
33.58 about those who annoy believing men and believing women.More of the context
33.59 is in the same context. To avoid that they be harmed on the ground that they were not known, gives a hint as a way to be known and thus not be harmed, then
33.50 Warns the hypocrites and those in whose heart is a diesease, understandably those who wanted to harm the women, annoy the Profet and annoy the believing men and women that if they do not desist the believers will have to fight them and drive them out of the cityYou may go on reading and verify that this aya has nothig to do with women's dress but with a situation of open enmity against the believers. The quran is being abused when it is taken out of context and used as a comand for women to dress in a certain way.
I had to comment on this on seeing God's clear commands being twisted for one's own desires.
If this context is not there in the world anymore, then al-quran itself will be disproved. There will always be people who will try to harm the believers by spreading lies about them and slandering them. The only way this context will not apply anymore is when 100 % of the world's population is believers. Forget 100 % believers, the majority will always be disbelievers, so there will always be the possibility of harm to the believing women. Even if everyone on Earth claim to be believers, how will you recognize the hypocrites? Even if believers are 51 % and disbelievers are 49 % on Earth, the following verse will be disproved
6116 And if you obey the majority of those on Earth they will lead you away from God?s path; that is because they follow conjecture, and that is because they only guess.
Of course 3359 is about believing women's dress. How can one say it is not? Of course the context is harm to the believing women, and God is giving a clear command for the believing women to lengthen their garments so they are recognized by the way they dress which will distinguish them from the disbelieving women, and thus not harmed, because of the way they dress. This context of harm will ALWAYS be present in this world, so the believing women should always dress as commanded in 3359 in public.
Even if you claim that all the people in a certain community are believers, so women don't have to lengthen their garments, how will you avoid the hypocrites? Only God knows what is in the hearts. So it is more prudent and safe for the believing women to ALWAYS lengthen their garments in public.
When God commands believing women to lengthen their garments so they will be recognized, this clearly implies that disbelieving women are more likely to not lengthen their dresses. Otherwise how will the believing women be recognized and distinguished from the disbelieving women to prevent harm from occurring to them, when both believing women and disbelieving women lengthen their garments? Now from this, I am not saying that those who do not lengthen their dresses are disbelievers, but what I mean is that the disbelievers are more likely to not lengthen their garments!
Now if believing women start dressing the same way as most of the disbelieving women, and start wearing short dresses (which includes short sleeves) then how will the disbelievers be able to distinguish between the two, and recognize the believing women and thus not harm them beause of fear of being overpowered and driven out of the neighborhood by the believers if they harm the believing women, as per 3360?
We should peacefully submit to God's commands insead of submitting to our egos/desires and then twisting God's words to justify our egos/desires.
4523 Have you seen the one who took his ego as his god, and God led him astray, despite his knowledge, and He sealed his hearing and his heart, and He made a veil on his eyes? Who then can guide him after God? Will you not remember?
People can do whatever they want and dress however they want because there is no compulsion in deen, but then they should openly admit that they are not submitting to and following God's commands, rather than twisting God's words to justify their desires/egos.
This time, no further comments and my silence cannot be assumed to be anything.
That comment by Wakas made me laugh )
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http//islamawakened.com/Quran/24/30/
http//islamawakened.com/Quran/24/31/Yusuf Ali Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty that will make for greater purity for them And Allah is well acquainted with all that they do.
And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or the slaves whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex; and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O ye Believers! turn ye all together towards Allah, that ye may attain Bliss.
See other translations aswell.
Combining this, and the aforementioned verse, it seems that appropriate dressing (conservative) is required, and that it would make you reckognized as a decent person, and not a promsicuous person. (who might be bothered, attract unwanted attention) Not unlike todays situation. Quran, a message for all times.
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peace t, all,
When God says something and Mr. Wakas wants to know how, then shouldn't God be asked? If I had authored that verse then I would have loved to answer that question!
I was asking the author of the interpretation of the verse, i.e. you, about how you envisaged the practical application of your interpretation working.
It is obvious from Wakas' response that he is the one having ego problems because he is assuming things about me without any basis. Silence to a question does not mean one does not know the answer.
I never said you did not know the answer, I said I will take that to mean you are unable to answer until proven otherwise. I gave my interpretation of your reply, not made a factual statement. When a person who usually responds in discussion airs a view and is asked a question about this view but avoids the question, then one is left to interpret that response and that's what I did.
Even God asks us to disregard vain talk, so does that mean that if we disregard vain talk then we don't have an answer for that?
2855 And if they come across vain talk, they disregard it and say ?To us are our deeds, and to you is your deeds. Peace be upon you. We do not seek the ignorant.?
Do you regard trying to understand God's Word by way of civilised discussion as vain talk? Please brother, let's stick to the facts of the discussion so we can better understand God's message together.
I will respond to your other post shortly, as it is late in the UK.
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PaladinGirl, if you want to get a better insight into the aya in question read the ones before and nes after.
33.57 talks about thos who annoy the profet. It is a context
33.58 about those who annoy believing men and believing women.More of the context
33.59 is in the same context. To avoid that they be harmed on the ground that they were not known, gives a hint as a way to be known and thus not be harmed, then
33.50 Warns the hypocrites and those in whose heart is a diesease, understandably those who wanted to harm the women, annoy the Profet and annoy the believing men and women that if they do not desist the believers will have to fight them and drive them out of the cityYou may go on reading and verify that this aya has nothig to do with women's dress but with a situation of open enmity against the believers. The quran is being abused when it is taken out of context and used as a comand for women to dress in a certain way.
Verify for yourself.
Salaam
Surprised, o,,,, very surprised, that is unlike you Huruf ! voodoo deservesd bashing by turthseeker.
siki
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Ok thanks everyone. I have come to the conclusion that short sleeves are fine so long as they are not tight fitting.
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Peace
It annoys me when I ask someone a question and they skirt the issue. Truth, you were asked a question which you did not answer and now you are resorting to guessing at one's ignorance. Let's be civil and stop taking the wrong exemplars .
Kill your ego .
Joe
I don't agree with this translation of the verse, but egoannihilation philosophy is interesting, and one can definately see the ego as a satan. And the following statement supports that
"All that I know, is from elsewhere. Ultimately God." - So God is the only one to be praised ;D
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peace t, all,
If this context is not there in the world anymore, then al-quran itself will be disproved.
No it will not. The Quran often discusses situations that may not be present today but can still occur and gives us guidance on how to proceed under such situations if they occur. For example, chapter 9.
There will always be people who will try to harm the believers by spreading lies about them and slandering them.
The verses discusses significant open enmity, as previously mentioned in this thread, not "spreading lies" or "slander". Of course, this may a component but when it discusses adopting a modification of dress in order to be recognised, this clearly implies what is taking place is direct to the person.
The only way this context will not apply anymore is when 100 % of the world's population is believers.
Wrong. The context may not apply in a very common situation and that is living in a community or country in which such open enmity does not take place. I know where I live muslims are not harassed like this.
Forget 100 % believers, the majority will always be disbelievers, so there will always be the possibility of harm to the believing women.
Of course there will always be a possibility of harm to any person, not just women or believers, in any community. These verses are not discussing a "possibility", they are discussing significant open enmity, this is fact.
Of course 3359 is about believing women's dress. How can one say it is not? Of course the context is harm to the believing women, and God is giving a clear command for the believing women to lengthen their garments so they are recognized by the way they dress which will distinguish them from the disbelieving women, and thus not harmed, because of the way they dress. This context of harm will ALWAYS be present in this world, so the believing women should always dress as commanded in 3359 in public.
As previously said, of course there will always be a possibility of harm to anyone in any community but these verses are not discussing potential harm, they are discussing significant open enmity. This is a big difference.
Even if you claim that all the people in a certain community are believers, so women don't have to lengthen their garments, how will you avoid the hypocrites? Only God knows what is in the hearts. So it is more prudent and safe for the believing women to ALWAYS lengthen their garments in public.
Again, you fail to realise the verses discuss clear open direct hostility/enmity. This is very easy to recognise, thus your point about hypocrites and what is in the hearts is completely null and void.
When God commands believing women to lengthen their garments so they will be recognized, this clearly implies that disbelieving women are more likely to not lengthen their dresses. Otherwise how will the believing women be recognized and distinguished from the disbelieving women to prevent harm from occurring to them, when both believing women and disbelieving women lengthen their garments? Now from this, I am not saying that those who do not lengthen their dresses are disbelievers, but what I mean is that the disbelievers are more likely to not lengthen their garments!
Your opening line conveniently neglects the whole picture, but it should read
When God commands believing women to lengthen their garments so they will be recognized and not harmed in this hostile situation...
Your version implies a general rule.
Also, let's clarify it is discussing modification of the jilbab which is an outergarment. A dress is unlikely to fit into this category. Perhaps it means lengthening or drawing near or lowering but what modification is not that important for our discussion, but what is clear is it is an outergarment. See Classical Arabic dictionaries.
Now if believing women start dressing the same way as most of the disbelieving women, and start wearing short dresses (which includes short sleeves) then how will the disbelievers be able to distinguish between the two, and recognize the believing women and thus not harm them beause of fear of being overpowered and driven out of the neighborhood by the believers if they harm the believing women, as per 3360?
It was no doubt true during this revelation during the prophet's time, but you seem to imply that this is a common experience! I dont know where you live, but do "disbelievers" commonly show open hostility to women but before they do so they take a straw poll and ask whether they are believers or not? And they dont finish there, depending on how they answer they then proceed to take a measuring tape out and measure the length of their dress before deciding to insult them or not..... and if it's too long they just walk away?! Is that what you want us to believe? This is the height of nonsense.
We should peacefully submit to God's commands insead of submitting to our egos/desires and then twisting God's words to justify our egos/desires.
Through discussion and weighing of evidence/logic/etc we can then determine the best meaning and follow it.
The verses discuss a significantly hostile situation and a practical solution to the problem. Note, the problem exists first, a solution is then put forward.
In a previous thread on this subject, I discussed an analogy
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=16792.0In the UK summer is approaching. If summer is also approaching where you are why not tell your friends and family to wear thicker coats when they go outside. If they ask why, tell them thicker coats are protecting in winter so you think even though the colder winter situation doesn't exist, they should still adopt the protection. See how long they wait before they lock you up in an insane asylum
That comment by Wakas made me laugh
Nervous laughter? )
