Muhammad is a White Man?
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Peace SubmitterToGOD,
SEE WHY THIS CREATES PROBLEMS?? brickwall
Close this topic!!!How is this topic creating problems? The problems (i.e. racism, stereotypes, historical alteration, etc.) were already here; we're just airing them out to find a solution. The only people who think topics like this are causing problems are those blinded from reality, and in this way, they are the ones actually creating problems by not seeking solutions to the existing issues. Hopefully this isn't you...
Peace,
Ahmad
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First, SubmitterToGod I would like to express that I do have a feeling that we are getting somewhere on this subject. I don't sense any problems, except that I may have been overly harsh and hasty in some of the comments I made and I apologize to the rest of the forum for that. If we don't talk about these things we just end up with two polarized and racist communities. Whether or not this forum is the place to discuss this I'm not sure, but we seem to be getting along rather well (compared to some other conversations on race I've participated in and/or witnessed).
Peace RSW,
I wasn't stating that to demean the white race or anything like that. Like I said, I believe in racial and social equality. The problem is true worldwide racial and social equality doesn't exist, at least not at this point. White people in general have placed themselves above the rest of the world. I'm not talking about every individual white person either, I'm speaking about the general majority. And yes, using the "ghetto mentality" as a reference for blacks is indeed a racist statement. That's like making the comment, "All black people don't like chicken." Even though it's a true statement based on indefinate reality, it is still based on racism and preconceived stereotypes of black people eating chicken. If I made a comment like that about white people, it would demonstrate reliance on racial stereotypes, which is a basic form of racism.
I'm with you on about 90% of this paragraph. The only part that I disagree with is "White people in general have placed themselves abovet he rest of the world." This is a perfect example of what you describe in the last sentence of your paragraph where you speak about reliance on racial stereotypes. Saying "All black people don't like chicken" is true and based on racism, and saying "White people in general have placed themselves above the rest of the world" is true (if oversimplified and vague) and based on racism. I don't believe that using racism to fight racism is a productive method of approaching the problem. What need to be identified is not the color of the people who have committed the alleged offense, but the behaviors and attitudes which produce the effect. What has occured in history concerning white oppression should be discussed as a discussion about oppression, not whites. It just so happens the historical example is white people; it is not a characteristic specific or universal to their skin color and should not be associated with their skin color at all. Nothing should be associated with skin color. I'd like if we didn't have to use terms like "white race" and "black race" like everybody of a certain skin color can be grouped together under a name. The only thing we can guarantee all white people have in common is their color, the same is for any race. I don't identify as a member of any "race" because doing so would be racist, and identifying races is a sure way start and lend further mindshare to racism.
I've spoken to plenty of white people about the issue of objective white dominance throughout the world, especially in the United States. The problem with this is the "white view" on the matter of racism; many white people refuse to admit there's a racial problem. They think everything is fine and normal, and they don't understand why black people feel discriminated against. This is a racial bias, and many white people have blinded themselves from reality. They've escaped the world of racism against blacks by living in different communities, going to different schools, having different friends, and maintaining different employment sites. In other words, they completely avoid black people altogether, and this leads many of them to think there's no "race problem". Many black people have also blinded themselves, so I don't base every notion of racism on alleged "white supremacy". Many black people have been mentally enslaved for so long by this objective white dominance, they think it's fine and normal for them to be treated with disrespect, overburdened with criticism and judgement by whites. They think this is the way things are supposed to be. In that sense, they've given in to white dominance, and they've become racial and social slaves of the white dominated society.
I grew up in majority black New Orleans, where my father and grandfather and many of the older white people in my community expressed racist attitudes. Where I live now in Mississippi I've noticed a strong presense of racism, even some disgusting comments I've heard from people I never expected would be racist. Our decision on the new president is causing me to loose respect for many of the people I know, as they've started showing their true colors with some sick racist remarks. There is a serious racial problem. It's not just on the white side, either, and it's not a black-and-white issue. People of all different colors and origins tend to stick to their own and be unnecessarily and inappropriately wary of people unlike them. I would like to see the establishment of some kind of educational organization devoted to exposing the 'objective white dominance'; that is, for example, publishing information on how the prophets were not white, the historical occurances that established the false racial hierarchy, etc. but I'd like to see it done by a mixed group of races and based on REAL objectivity, rather than be filled with things such as "whites are the offspring of iblis" and associating characteristics of evil religious figures with people of a certain skin color. I believe whites blacks browns and yellows can and will work together to eliminate racism if the problem is approached in an objective and rational manner.
I'm far from a "racist", and I don't believe in oppressing anyone. The Quran cautions against this, saying that oppression is actually "worse than murder" (2217). Regarding racist remarks, I haven't said anything racially discriminatory at all. I think the world would be much better if people decided to work together instead of judge others based on racial and cultural differences. Plus, I haven't made any false comments. Everything I've spoken on regarding this issue is directly from the Quran or it's my own personal opinion; and I make a clear separation between the two. Other things stated are scientifically accepted, irrefutable facts that have been confirmed by years of dedicated research by cultural scientists.
I already spoke on this issue, and if white people are willing to work with black people to solve the problem, then there can be an exchange of ideas to change the current situation. But you and I both know that, even if black people are willing to work with whites, white people will NOT be willing to work with blacks to find a solution. Most of them still refuse to acknowledge there's even a problem. With regards to "consequential hatred", it's not your place to speak on that issue. If you believe it is, then when you see a rape victim tearfully speaking about their painful experience, tell them to "get over it", and see what they tell you! Consequential hatred is a reality, and the fact is it wouldn't exist is the initial hatred didn't exist (i.e. a rape victim wouldn't hate a rapist if the rapist never committed the crime). So, once you tell white people to stop hating blacks, THEN you can build enough leverage to tell black people to stop hating whites. Until then, you're never going to change anything.
Peace,
Ahmad
To reply to your assumption that white people will not want to work with blacks because they deny there is even a problem (which is again splitting us apart based on color instead of the real problem ignorance), that is where education comes in. It's like you said, people like to stick to their own and pretend there isn't a problem. This isn't just with race, but it happens with politics and religion and pretty much everything where the truth isn't always comfortable to think about. The issue needs to be brought to the fore, but not in the way the website in the original post does. It needs to be done in a way that the people being addressed will not feel villanized and guilty. The reason white pictures of Jesus proliferate is not because whites today want to assert a racial hierarchy, but because that image has been engraved in their minds just like it has everyone else. Explaining the facts to them in a way that isn't going make all white people seem like an evil race bent on world domination would be the best way to get them to realize their images are wrong and acknowledge the problem.
On the subject of consequential hatred; I'm very interested in hearing more about this and understanding it better. I don't believe I fully understand the subject enough right now to make many judgements about it. Why does who hated first matter? Shouldn't ALL race-related hate be squashed at once? To me the concept of a racial seperation is what allowed racism to exist in the first place and it needs to be removed completely in order to remove racism; that includes anybody hating anybody based solely on skin color, regardless of which colors were involved.
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RSW,
I don't think you should look at the situation in such a start from scratch sort of way. The particular problem between people of European descent and people of significant African descent is historically connected and rooted. It is rooted in the common culture, in popular Eurocentric protestant (and catholic, who have gotten better than what they used to be) Christianity, and it goes back to tensions created between White Europeans and the Moors (mostly made up of brown and black Berbers and West Africans, but also more Caucasian Berber elements, as well as brown Arabs, black Arabs and more caucasian Arab elements.) But as the brown and black was so prevalent and Europeans outside of Moorish territory were so purely white what happened? All Europeans above the Moorish line developed an antagonistic relationship with brown people, black (a number of whom are really brown) people and Muslims as a whole. All of whom they associated with the Moorish and Saracen Barbarians whom they were made to feel afraid of by their leaders (and whom some may have had real reasons for theri fear).
But the whole point is not that white people choose to be racist per se. They choose to accept the racism, and what's more important, the white supremacy that is traditional to their cultures. Ignorance about Africans, their descendents and the cultures and specific physical traits are epedemic amongst Europeans and their diaspora. And if you listen to how Euro-Americans describe others it becomes obvious that descriptions for non-white people are not in their vocabulary. That is not true of Afro-Americans. Or even the awkwardness that white people experience when talking about things non-white, is both enraging and a shame at the same time. Although individuals can question themselves and their cultures to surpass these defects, long standing cultural tendencies rooted in long gone cultural events are hard to surpass. It's amazing how fear and hatred of Moors led to the racialization of slavery and the hatred of Islam and descendents of Africans in the Americas among Europeans and their diaspora up until this day. But Eurocentric and White supremacist culture is just that, culture. A culture associated with a certain race but culture all the same. So I know that some people here believe that these cultural differences are rooted in genetics (please say genetics and not skin color becuz skin color is not the issue and the Afro-Americans who would damn white people will feel solidarity with other blacks who may be damn near white but have historically remained Afro-Americans) the issue is not skin deep, but culture deep. Also there is more to race than skin color. I hate when people say that racism boils down to skin color. It doesn't. Race is not just skin color but hair texture, facial features, stature, and a whole set of phemomes besides skin color. Yeah those are only a few genes but they are enough to make real physical differences between groups of people, in particular the main three races and their subgroups (Caucasiod, Mongoloid, Negroid). Those people who share features specific to each of these groups are mixtures (long standing or recent) between these groups.
But this culture of White Supremacy and Eurocentricity has led to Europeans and their diaspora not only obsessing with their racial purity, but also to claiming that people who are obviously partly negroid (Arabs, Berbers, Copts, Southern Mediterraneans, and Indians) or who in the past were fully negroid (ancient Egyptians) are really forms of pure Caucasians like they are. Or to denying the obvious negro presence in southeast Asia. So it is the acceptance of the perpetuatation of the historical coverups, as well as the total cultural ignorance of anything non-white (unless perjoritive) which is so exasperating to non-whites and Afro-Americans in particular who disproportionately know much more about Europeans and European diaspora than they know about us. And for those who are tired of assimilating, life becomes an undergound (just like undergound events and businesses) endeavor in order to maintain some dignity and not have to be a Sambo, a psuedo-Sambo or an absolutely fake person to get ahead.
But my answer to all this is that in the end this is the dunyaa. And just as Jesus (God bless him) said, Satan is the prince of the world (of men, of course). The Arabic Dunya (not the word that Jesus uses to my knowledge) means 'most low.' And this applies to our physical position as well as the state of the world and the state of man. Remember Adam was told to descend, to go down. That going down is also a state of being. And the Quran says that other children of Adam will be our enemies (ba'dukum li ba'din aduwwan) in addition to the force (malak) of evil itself, ash-shaytaanu, whose name is Iblis (this word could be derived from the greek Diabolos (when the d is truncated you can see the connection) or from ablasa (which means to be desparate and dumbfounded). We see in the Quran how other people are called shayaateena (plural of shaytan). So I personally have lost hope in being able to positively change the world (of men) for good. Just in the same way God will always be testing us (although if we stay blameless and check our sin and egos from within and through retrospection He will bless us).
My hope is that a group of enlightened individuals can work together to create wealth, develop a sound Quranic programme and create a Quranic base that can help to do real good in the world and make a positive impression in the name of God and with the Quran as a banner. Real good in my opinion is freeing people from the dependencies that exist today and create virtual slavery through the rat race. Obviously learning the truths on the issues of race, racism, cultural racial supremacy and history are necessary in order to form solid ideas for improvement through knowledge. For as long as I have been on these forums I can be honest in saying that i don't see that movement coming out of these forums. Hopefully someone with a lot of wealth will get some sense and see that we have issues on multiple levels from our ideas on the races to our ideas on what is true economic development and freedom.
And if God doesn't will for that to happen I just pray that he will provide atleast for me and my children the sort of just, self-sufficent, fulfiling, productive, long-lasting and free life and legacy that i envision for a Quranist community. With TRUTH, liberty and discipline in God, for all.
Speaking of white supremacy here's a good video about black white supremacists (not Dave Chappelle). It may not be what you are expecting but it is worth watching
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ztk7p0sRfZA
He curses a bit, but it's for a good cause
Godbless,
Anwar -
If what you're saying is that the prophets weren't white, then please, tell everyone the prophets weren't white. Nobody is going to argue with you about that because it's obvious they were not white. You have a logical and sound belief here.
If you want to say the 'white race' is trying to dominate the earth or that people with light skin exhibit traits of arrogance and pride they inherited from their ancestor Iblis you are going to be told because that is pure racism. Whites have done their fair share of evil but it's in no way tied to skin color, any more than ghetto mentality is tied to black skin color. People are a product of their culture, not a slave to their race, and every individual is responsible for his or her own actions and nothing else. You can't say 'white people are doing this.' You can say there are 'racist priests and scholars' and you can say 'imperialist ambitions of european leaders' caused the proliferation of the beliefs of the racists but you can not make broad generalizations about whole masses of people based on their skin color.
I'm not ignorant like you think I know there are many racist whites, yes especially even today. Many of them are in positions of authority. I don't hate being told this and I agree with it; I've seen it first hand. The only thing I can't stand is seeing you imitate their disgusting mode of thinking. You've adopted the same racist attitude and dogma that you are fighting against. You can cry all day you're just exposing truths, and you are (prophets were not white, this is true) but you're also throwing in a lot of new lies inbetween those truths. I know you're not going accept what I'm saying because you think I'm just a brainlocked slave to my white skin color but I've been around this brand of rhetoric a few times (from many different issues, not just skin color) and I know it when I see it.
You have said this about me
"Whites have done their fair share of evil but it's in no way tied to skin color"
You see this is the BIG problem, you start out like you understand racism but yet you made this declaration that I tied racism to a color of a skin. I never made this statement and I CHALLENGE you to produce anywhere I have said this!
I don?t have any respect for some who misquotes individuals and diminish the individual to your made up assumption that I made those declarations and on top of your obvious mistake here you associate me with the racism from your people. You cannot equate the oppressed with the oppressor. Again, its probably due to the fact that one of the children of the slaves is exposing the racism behind your race, making you come face to face with it which is something that you cannot handle. I will be waiting on you to quote me verbatim of what you said up above!
What I am doing is very clear. You see white people in Islaam and in Christianity after they have enslaved and conquered made color ?racism? and the website that I posted physically proved how the pale arab fabricated hadiyths stating that Prophet Muhammad is a white man, why when I stand up to speak out against it and using Qur?aan alone to refute it, I am the racist. RSW its really you who is the ignorant racist. Again this is the classic example of blaming the sheep but not the wolf.
You also have said
"any more than ghetto mentality is tied to black skin color"
You will probably never understand the conditions of Black people but this ghetto mentality that you are speaking of was created through centuries of white racism, oppression, the crimes of commition and omission created by again white racists. Listen to Brother Farrakhan break this down
Farrakhan we were stripped of knowledge of self
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPhQgnIz9MM -
Wa'alaykum Asalaam Al Khidr,
You are absolutely correct. Mistranslation and historical adaptations to make the prophets fit a certain WHITE description is not coincidental nor accidental. These people knew what they were doing when they changed things. It's been widely accepted that the original people migrated from Africa, and it's been widely accepted scientifically that they had dark skin. However, even TODAY, this still doesn't stop people from painting pictures of a "White Jesus" and "White Mohammed", even a "White Moses". They're intentionally changing history to fit their own culture.
Salaam RSW,
This is true to an extent, but like I said, it's already been scientifically acknowledged that white people and black people are INHERENTLY different from eachother. For starters, if you take a black child in an all-black community and then introduce him to a white child, he will most likely be accepting, wanting to make friends. However, if you take a white child in an all-white community and introduce him to a black child, he will most likely reject him because he looks different that the white child's other peers. This is a clear indication that white people are inherently racist, arrogant, and judgemental, just like the Quran describes Iblis/Satan. Now, does that mean all white people are bad? Absolutely not. But their changes are choices. Many white people change their attitudes to an extent after being grouped with other people, and this is fine. But facts are facts. The fact that you said "ghetto mentality" is evidence of this as well, since only about 40% of black people live in "ghettos"; but you still grouped blacks into a "ghetto" realm like they make up the majority, even though they don't. As a matter of fact, other groups live in "ghettos" just like blacks (i.e. Jews, Asians, Latinos, Italians, etc.), but you only referenced blacks as exhibiting this "ghetto" trait. This is a form of arrogant racism as well, even though you may not realize it.
I disagree with this statement as well. In general, white people often accuse blacks of "reverse racism", and I think this is one of the most outrageous things in the world, seriously. What black people have is "consequential hatred", and it's only to a degree; in other words, some black people hate some white people because THEY ARE HATED. It's a defense. If a sheep hates a wolf, does that make him racist? Or if a rape victim hates a rapist, does that make the victim prejudice against the rapist? This is outrageous! A victimized black person is going to have a form of resentment against his oppressor, and this is reality. It's not racism at all. Now, do I think black people should hate white people? No, of course not, I believe in racial equality. The problem is there is no racial equality because white people have raised themselves to a level of racial superiority, and this in turn leads to the subjected state of black inferiority. And this happens all over the world. This is just reality. We have to address this issue in order to combat it and stop it, if that's possible.
Peace,
Ahmad
ALHAMDULILLAH BROTHER AHMAD BILAL FOR ALL WHAT YOU HAVE SAID HERE AND I'M GLAD THAT YOU ALSO STAIGHTENED OUT HIS IGNORANT STATEMENT ABOUT GHETTO MENTALITY.
AND BROTHER WHAT YOU SAID HERE IS RIGHT ON POINT WHICH DEMONSTRATES THAT BLACK PEOPLE AND OUR REACTION TO THEM IS NOT STIMULATED FROM BEING A RACISTS LIKE THEM
I disagree with this statement as well. In general, white people often accuse blacks of "reverse racism", and I think this is one of the most outrageous things in the world, seriously. What black people have is "consequential hatred", and it's only to a degree; in other words, some black people hate some white people because THEY ARE HATED. It's a defense. If a sheep hates a wolf, does that make him racist? Or if a rape victim hates a rapist, does that make the victim prejudice against the rapist? This is outrageous! A victimized black person is going to have a form of resentment against his oppressor, and this is reality. It's not racism at all. Now, do I think black people should hate white people? No, of course not, I believe in racial equality. The problem is there is no racial equality because white people have raised themselves to a level of racial superiority, and this in turn leads to the subjected state of black inferiority. And this happens all over the world. This is just reality. We have to address this issue in order to combat it and stop it, if that's possible.
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RSW you have made this response to Ahmad Bilal
?The only part that I disagree with is "White people in general have placed themselves abovet he rest of the world." This is a perfect example of what you describe in the last sentence of your paragraph where you speak about reliance on racial stereotypes.?
It is no doubt that Ahmad Bilal is a very highly intelligent brother and he has articulated the dynamics of racism to where a child can understand. RSW there are a lot of obstacles that I can see in you as a white male having difficulties fully digesting this reality of racism, global white supremacy which exists also in religions of the world because they (the white man) are in position of power-they have the ability to institutionalize racism, which has been institutionalized also in the judicial system, political system, educational system, civic system and on and on and not only in America but around the world. Now back to your statement which I captured up above, when ever you travel to any country you will always see the white dynamic at the top and the Black dynamic at the bottom and when you travel to Jewish countries, Christian countries, Muslim countries, you will see the White dynamic at the top and the Black dynamic at the bottom so Ahmad Bilal was right and exact with his premise which was never a racial stereotype unlike your statement about the ghetto mentality and more that we are seeing and hearing from you.
Malcolm X has always indicated how the white man due to his racism tries to use reverse psychology or reverse racism to make it appear that we (the Black, Brown, Red, Yellow) are the racists. There is only one race that is in position of power and that is the white man and as such he is the only racists on the planet. Every body can be prejudice but ever body cannot be a racist. Most people really don?t understand the true/proper meaning of racism and don?t want to take the time.
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Salaam Anwar/Progod
You have said that I said this
"You yourself used to say that the pale, weak Arabs could never conquer black Africans."
I can tell that you are consciously attempting to distort what I say and possibly to mislead others that are paying attention to this Post. Now I CHALLENGE you to quote me verbatim where I have made this declaration which you have foolishly associated with my self.
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This is the third time someone has misunderstood me when I brought up the "ghetto mentality" concept. I'll explain it again
I was demonstrating that applying a mentality to an entire skin color of people is incorrect. Saying all white people are arrogant and prideful is the same as saying all black people are ghetto. BOTH statements are incorrect, BOTH statements are inappropriate and offensive. I never offered a commentary on 'ghetto mentality' and never presumed to know where it comes from or what it is. It was just an example, I could just as easily have used "all asians work hard at school" or any other ridiculous stereotype. I wasn't saying anything about blacks or the ghetto, I was just using a popular example of ignorant thinking.
Don't be so quick to think I'm just here to be arrogant and defend whites. I don't identify with any "race" (i dont even believe in the things) and could care less what anybody thinks about people who look like me. I don't deny many European and European-descended people have done a lot of racist things and continue to do them. This is not a hard reality for me to face, what's hard for me to accept is that people are using the Qu'ran and putting "whites" where "jinn" is and using the story of the fall of Iblis to characterize "white" behavior. It takes a very race-centric and skewed point-of-view to come up with that. We all believe what we want to believe but seriously, does it have to always be about color? I was floored when Harun Yahya was introduced with "This is what he looks like" and a picture. How much more prejudiced does it get?
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This is the third time someone has misunderstood me when I brought up the "ghetto mentality" concept. I'll explain it again
I was demonstrating that applying a mentality to an entire skin color of people is incorrect. Saying all white people are arrogant and prideful is the same as saying all black people are ghetto. BOTH statements are incorrect, BOTH statements are inappropriate and offensive. I never offered a commentary on 'ghetto mentality' and never presumed to know where it comes from or what it is. It was just an example, I could just as easily have used "all asians work hard at school" or any other ridiculous stereotype. I wasn't saying anything about blacks or the ghetto, I was just using a popular example of ignorant thinking.
Don't be so quick to think I'm just here to be arrogant and defend whites. I don't identify with any "race" (i dont even believe in the things) and could care less what anybody thinks about people who look like me. I don't deny many European and European-descended people have done a lot of racist things and continue to do them. This is not a hard reality for me to face, what's hard for me to accept is that people are using the Qu'ran and putting "whites" where "jinn" is and using the story of the fall of Iblis to characterize "white" behavior. It takes a very race-centric and skewed point-of-view to come up with that. We all believe what we want to believe but seriously, does it have to always be about color? I was floored when Harun Yahya was introduced with "This is what he looks like" and a picture. How much more prejudiced does it get?
RSW
?Saying all white people are arrogant and prideful is the same as saying all black people are ghetto.?
I nor Ahmad Bilal said 100% of all white people. As militant and strong as Malcolm X was he to also never said that 100% of white people are as such. JInns are one of the most evil beings (in Jannah) and one of the most evil human beings (in al ard, the planet earth) in the Qur?aan but yet even Allah says that there ar some good Jinns so if Allah never addressed the Jinns in the absolute sense then how can we say that 100% of white people are racists. Our claims is that the majority of white people are racist, remember they are in global position of power, who can deny this!
"Don't be so quick to think I'm just here to be arrogant and defend whites."
Well your actions make it hard to believe especially when you attempted to say that I diminish racism to skin color, which you cannot quote me saying this.
"I was floored when Harun Yahya was introduced with "This is what he looks like" and a picture. How much more prejudiced does it get??
Alhamdulillah for this! Again I am one of the children of the slaves who decided to stand up and speak out against this racism but because I?m doing this and others like me as well for some reason white folks in this forum are exercising reverse racism and calling me and others racists.
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I remember saying some things you said were racist (if it draws any distinction having to to with race it's racist the way I see it, and this whole thread has been about that from the start), but I don't recall saying any of you were actually racists. If I did say or imply that I apologize because it would indeed be a stupid thing to say and I ought to be ashamed of myself. If any of us were intentionally racist we wouldn't be here talking about this.
European and European-descended leaders are a minority in both the "white race" and in the world -- but they are the only ones with the power to institutionalize racism on a global scale. The majority of whites did not participate in this, the majority of the whites were serfs kicking dirt around a feudal lord's mansion while most of that stuff was being set up. I'll acknowledge that most AMERICANS IN GENERAL are racist but its the snide coward racism they inherited from their parents at the diner table, it doesn't make it better but it's not like they're enforcing a caste system. They are just being ignorant humans, following suit like humans tend to do. It's got less to do with global power and racist oppression and more to do with being obnoxious and hateful. It isn't making things better and it needs to stop, but it's got nothing to do with the rich white bastards running the world (except that they are probably the ones who instigated it. I read "Black Rednecks and White Liberals" where Thomas Sowell claimed racism came from the ruling class trying to split the working class so they argue and fight each other instead of the ruling class. How accurate that is I don't know, but it seems likely).
I haven't even been outside of America (im pretty sure 'most whites' DONT live in the US) and haven't read about racist attitudes of whites outside of it so I am not at liberty to make statements including whites outside of America. If you know more than me concerning the amount of racist whites in europe/asia/australia/south america/africa I'd be interested in hearing about it.
When I hear you saying that the Qu'ran speaks of whites when it speaks of Jinns and that GOD created man from black mud and that means original man was black it seems to me you are reducing racism to skin color. If I'm incorrect here then please fill me in. It's my understanding that skin color and race has **** all to do with anything in the Qu'ran, but I'm flexible on these things.
I admit I don't understand your last sentence. I don't mean to accuse you of reverse racism but I really don't understand why what Harun Yahya looks like is so important to debunk his lies.
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Al-Khidr,
I'll be the first to admit if I have made a mistake. But first, can i ask you if you have Terets or something? Why do you have to stick an insult in everytime you address me on an issue, and intentionally try to incite me. I'm starting to find it funny but at the same time I'm starting to worry about you, brother. Saying that my associating this statement with you is foolish is wrong. I might be mistaken but I'm not a fool for being mistaken about something you may have said. If you do have Terets, I suggest you go see someone about it, and I say that with deep concern for your well-being.
Now to get back to the issue maybe these weren't your exact words, but they are what i understood from something you said some time ago. I looked around for it using key words and I couldn't find the thread or the specific post of yours that made me take that understanding away from it. So I'll ask you, did you ever say or imply that the pale Arabs were too weak to have ever conquered (black) Africa?
If you didn't I'll gladly say, my bad. But don't let that tempt you into trying to undermine all of my other points on in this topic or on this forum, just because I accidently misquoted you. That would be unjust, unquranic and just plain old manipulative, evil and satan-like. I pray that as someone on a mission for truth, you are better than that.
So again, did you ever say or imply that the pale Arabs were too weak to have ever conquered (black) Africa?
Godbless,
AnwarSalaam Anwar/Progod
You have said that I said this
"You yourself used to say that the pale, weak Arabs could never conquer black Africans."
I can tell that you are consciously attempting to distort what I say and possibly to mislead others that are paying attention to this Post. Now I CHALLENGE you to quote me verbatim where I have made this declaration which you have foolishly associated with my self.
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Al-Khidr,
I'll be the first to admit if I have made a mistake. But first, can i ask you if you have Terets or something? Why do you have to stick an insult in everytime you address me on an issue, and intentionally try to incite me. I'm starting to find it funny but at the same time I'm starting to worry about you, brother. Saying that my associating this statement with you is foolish is wrong. I might be mistaken but I'm not a fool for being mistaken about something you may have said. If you do have Terets, I suggest you go see someone about it, and I say that with deep concern for your well-being.
Now to get back to the issue maybe these weren't your exact words, but they are what i understood from something you said some time ago. I looked around for it using key words and I couldn't find the thread or the specific post of yours that made me take that understanding away from it. So I'll ask you, did you ever say or imply that the pale Arabs were too weak to have ever conquered (black) Africa?
If you didn't I'll gladly say, my bad. But don't let that tempt you into trying to undermine all of my other points on in this topic or on this forum, just because I accidently misquoted you. That would be unjust, unquranic and just plain old manipulative, evil and satan-like. I pray that as someone on a mission for truth, you are better than that.
So again, did you ever say or imply that the pale Arabs were too weak to have ever conquered (black) Africa?
Godbless,
AnwarAnwar
I respond to you in such manner because you are associating or ascribing things to me which I never declared. When I respond to you notice that I quote you verbatim so there will be no mistake about it. I never made such declarations and I can tell that you are just talking from the top of your head so I made indications that you are intentionally distorting things about what I say and I said the same thing about RSW because he also made declarations that I said certain things when I didn?t so I also called him to task and ask him to quote me verbatim and nothing is wrong with that. My words are in this post and different parts of this forum and you know the Tawhiyd website, I can be quoted there as well. All one has to do is copy and paste. I call a spade a spade. Just like I have not taken it personal of your actions, don?t take it personal of my response to you. I don?t hate you or anything like that but you have to look at the context here, we are in a heated debate concerning this subject that I posted here. I been aware of the Arab Slave Trade, it happened, it existed so that means they were able to conquer. I am aware of the slave trade instituted by the Christians, it happened, it existed so that means they were able to conquer Africa.
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Peace RSW,
I was demonstrating that applying a mentality to an entire skin color of people is incorrect. Saying all white people are arrogant and prideful is the same as saying all black people are ghetto.
I understand your reasoning, but this is NOT the same thing. White people are generally, inherently prideful and arrogant, while the so-called "ghetto mentality" is based on social and cultural upbringing. That makes these factors completely different. On this issue of pride and arrogance throughout life, this has nothing to do with race, since everybody has the CHOICE to be arrogant and prideful. Many white people CHOOSE to maintain this attitude throughout life, but some make positive changes to be more humble and accepting of others. This, though, is the minority, not the majority. I can't place 100% of white people in one group just like I can't place 100% of black people in one group, and Brother Al Khidr wasn't saying this either. We're only speaking about the general majority.
I'll acknowledge that most AMERICANS IN GENERAL are racist but its the snide coward racism they inherited from their parents at the diner table, it doesn't make it better but it's not like they're enforcing a caste system. They are just being ignorant humans, following suit like humans tend to do. It's got less to do with global power and racist oppression and more to do with being obnoxious and hateful.
This is not completely true. In many parts of the world, especially parts of America, there are no black people. However, even though the younger generations of those people have never even seen black people in their life, if you integrate them into a multi-cultural society, they show clear signs of racism and discrimination. This shows that their prideful, judgemental attitude is not based on environment or surroundings; it's an inborn trait that they choose to exhibit.
I haven't even been outside of America (im pretty sure 'most whites' DONT live in the US) and haven't read about racist attitudes of whites outside of it so I am not at liberty to make statements including whites outside of America. If you know more than me concerning the amount of racist whites in europe/asia/australia/south america/africa I'd be interested in hearing about it.
Racism exists in all countries of the world, and it is exhibited strongest by white people. Also, you have to realize that white racism is reflective, and they tend to show discrimination against their own people if no black people are available. That's why brunettes hate blonds, Italians hate Irish and Scottish people, blue-eyed people hate brown-eyed people, etc. This has been mimicked by black society as well, and it's starting to become more prevalent that lighter-skinned blacks are showing discrimination toward darker-skinned blacks. In any case, the social viewpoint is "lighter is better". This happens inside and outside the United States, and it seems to be a growing trend. Because many black people have become so unaware of black history and culture, they mimick the characteristics of their white counterparts, even to the extent of lighter-skinned blacks hating darker-skinned blacks. This is especially becoming extremely prevalent in intermixed (black and white) people, who think they are a "better breed" than black people.
When I hear you saying that the Qu'ran speaks of whites when it speaks of Jinns and that GOD created man from black mud and that means original man was black it seems to me you are reducing racism to skin color. If I'm incorrect here then please fill me in. It's my understanding that skin color and race has **** all to do with anything in the Qu'ran, but I'm flexible on these things.
Skin color differences aren't directly mentioned in the Quran, but Adam being created from "black mud" does make him a black man. And here's how I interpret that, based on genetic reproduction Since Adam and Eve didn't have any genetic defects or recessive genes (they were the first humans), they could have only produced other black people. If they both had brown eyes, they couldn't have physically produced a blue-eyed child. The same would be the case if Adam and Eve were white. Either way, only one race of people could've come from them; the other group came from somewhere and someone else. So, the question is, Where did they come from? Who, if not Adam, produced them? Did Allah place another man and woman on the earth who He forgot to mention in the Quran? We see in the scriptures that the race of jinns aren't beyond repentence and forgiveness, and they can receive GOD's mercy; it depends on their choices. This is the same scenario with the children of Adam. The Quran says that many generations of them were wiped out and replaced with new ones, which shows that nobody, man or jinn, black or white, is exempt from following GOD's universal law. We all have to make the choice to "hear and obey".
Peace,
Ahmad
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I remember saying some things you said were racist (if it draws any distinction having to to with race it's racist the way I see it, and this whole thread has been about that from the start), but I don't recall saying any of you were actually racists. If I did say or imply that I apologize because it would indeed be a stupid thing to say and I ought to be ashamed of myself. If any of us were intentionally racist we wouldn't be here talking about this.
European and European-descended leaders are a minority in both the "white race" and in the world -- but they are the only ones with the power to institutionalize racism on a global scale. The majority of whites did not participate in this, the majority of the whites were serfs kicking dirt around a feudal lord's mansion while most of that stuff was being set up. I'll acknowledge that most AMERICANS IN GENERAL are racist but its the snide coward racism they inherited from their parents at the diner table, it doesn't make it better but it's not like they're enforcing a caste system. They are just being ignorant humans, following suit like humans tend to do. It's got less to do with global power and racist oppression and more to do with being obnoxious and hateful. It isn't making things better and it needs to stop, but it's got nothing to do with the rich white bastards running the world (except that they are probably the ones who instigated it. I read "Black Rednecks and White Liberals" where Thomas Sowell claimed racism came from the ruling class trying to split the working class so they argue and fight each other instead of the ruling class. How accurate that is I don't know, but it seems likely).
I haven't even been outside of America (im pretty sure 'most whites' DONT live in the US) and haven't read about racist attitudes of whites outside of it so I am not at liberty to make statements including whites outside of America. If you know more than me concerning the amount of racist whites in europe/asia/australia/south america/africa I'd be interested in hearing about it.
When I hear you saying that the Qu'ran speaks of whites when it speaks of Jinns and that GOD created man from black mud and that means original man was black it seems to me you are reducing racism to skin color. If I'm incorrect here then please fill me in. It's my understanding that skin color and race has **** all to do with anything in the Qu'ran, but I'm flexible on these things.
I admit I don't understand your last sentence. I don't mean to accuse you of reverse racism but I really don't understand why what Harun Yahya looks like is so important to debunk his lies.
RSW
?The majority of whites did not participate in this?
This is a fallacy of the highest degree. Let me give you a quick analogy below, for example
The US gov. after slavery is still guilty of taking land from the Native Indians. If the present generation of white folks sit back and allow this gov. to do this and do not speak up and condemn this form of imperialism, then how can they (the present generation of white folks) say that they are any better then their forefathers who took this entire country away from the Native Indians!
Do you get my point.
You will notice that if something white folks disagree with for example, i.e. many of them support homosexuality, or maybe against inhumane acts upon animals by humans, companies, corporations, they will come out and march by the THOUSANDS but where are all these white folks standing up and marching against the inhumane conditions of not only Black and people of color in the US and throughout the world? They aren?t, this is the reality, the white race cannot escape their collective deeds and actions that they have committed on the darker peoples of the world. The majority of them (white folks) support policies (that are crushing people of color throughout the world) of their gov. regardless if its in Europe, Australia, US, etc. so the collect embodiment of them are just as guilty as the elite whom you speak of as the only perpetrators.
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This is true to an extent, but like I said, it's already been scientifically acknowledged that white people and black people are INHERENTLY different from eachother. For starters, if you take a black child in an all-black community and then introduce him to a white child, he will most likely be accepting, wanting to make friends. However, if you take a white child in an all-white community and introduce him to a black child, he will most likely reject him because he looks different that the white child's other peers. This is a clear indication that white people are inherently racist, arrogant, and judgemental, just like the Quran describes Iblis/Satan.
Is the first sentence dealing with "scientific acknowledgement" leading to the next as evidence of the former? Where can I find these scientific studies that provide evidence for "white people" being inherently racist, arrogant and judgemental? And while you're at it, where are the studies that show "black people" aren't?
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I've seen what you're saying about whites try to find superficial reasons to hate other people not like them. I'm not sure how frequent that is in non-European societies and this (like the 'white children raised in white society will be racist in a multicultural society' is the kind of thing that requires real-world experiments and studies. I don't feel comfortable resting on allegations based on what it seems like should happen, or what people may claim to have seen, etc. I'd like to see some decent research conducted on these things before we just say "this is built-in on whites."
Also, something else that puzzles me about your interpretation of the Qu'ran is the timeline. Do you believe, like the website claims, that dark-skinned humans are the original man (I'm not saying I do or don't, I don't have any opinion on the subject)? If the Jinns (uhm, "whites" existed prior to the creation of man wouldn't that mean white people predated "original man"? Does that make white people less human, or black people less original?
The thing with me is the Qu'ran puts such a deep divide between humans and jinns that for 1400 years it hasn't been inconcievable that Jinns were nonmaterial spiritual beings (almost as completely different from man as you can get). While I believe our cultural influences do create some strong differences between us, I don't think they are so deep that millions of people would mistake that difference for the difference between a physical and spiritual being. That type of difference which is beyond race, beyond species, beyond even the plant/animal distinction what is natural and what is supernatural. Reading the Qu'ran the way suggested draws such a racially polarized world that coexistence can only ever be a delusional daydream at best. It divides mankind into two groups at perpetual unending war (albeit with some on either side who see above it all, but nonetheless). Do you think that is acceptable? You don't think there's more to mankind than this?
Also, the way the website illustrates it it's got a pretty clear bias with "whites" being the "badguys" and the rest of the world being the victims. Sure enough, the Qu'ran depicts most Jinns as being evil with a small percent being repentant. However, the Qu'ran also overwhelmingly shows the ratio of bad to good leaning on the dark side in mankind. Just as in the communities of Jinns, the communities of mankind are depicted as being overwhelmingly evil with just a few decent folks. But the Qu'ran shifts the blame for their immorality and disbelief to Jinns, saying THEY are the ones leading men astray. It paints Jinns as mischevious devils, the inspiration behind all of the evil activities men participate in. To interpret the Qu'ran based on this will create a worldview that is inherently prejudiced and in many people would easily cause resentment and hatred toward whites. Do you think this is acceptable?
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Peace Savage_Carrot,
Is the first sentence dealing with "scientific acknowledgement" leading to the next as evidence of the former? Where can I find these scientific studies that provide evidence for "white people" being inherently racist, arrogant and judgemental? And while you're at it, where are the studies that show "black people" aren't?
I didn't say that scientists agree that white people are inherently racist and discriminatory; this is a conclusion I've found to be true throughout my life and experiences with dealing with white children and adults throughout the world. I said white people and black people are "INHERENTLY DIFFERENT FROM EACHOTHER". I've done my own research, and I've also concluded that white people are generally more judgemental and unaccepting than blacks. Cultural science experts seem to agree with me on this issue as well. If you don't believe me, look it up. There are proofs of it everywhere.
Peace,
Ahmad
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RSW
?The majority of whites did not participate in this?
This is a fallacy of the highest degree. Let me give you a quick analogy below, for example
The US gov. after slavery is still guilty of taking land from the Native Indians. If the present generation of white folks sit back and allow this gov. to do this and do not speak up and condemn this form of imperialism, then how can they (the present generation of white folks) say that they are any better then their forefathers who took this entire country away from the Native Indians!
Do you get my point.
You will notice that if something white folks disagree with for example, i.e. many of them support homosexuality, or maybe against inhumane acts upon animals by humans, companies, corporations, they will come out and march by the THOUSANDS but where are all these white folks standing up and marching against the inhumane conditions of not only Black and people of color in the US and throughout the world? They aren?t, this is the reality, the white race cannot escape their collective deeds and actions that they have committed on the darker peoples of the world. The majority of them (white folks) support policies (that are crushing people of color throughout the world) of their gov. regardless if its in Europe, Australia, US, etc. so the collect embodiment of them are just as guilty as the elite whom you speak of as the only perpetrators.
Yeah, I get your point now. It'd be kind of inconvenient for all the individuals and businesses who have bought up this land in their game of "postindustrial economy" to have to give it back to who it really belongs to. but there's nothing "white people" can do about it anymore. Even if we got every white person to give up their private property there's still publicly traded companies and governments who own land and those are IDEAS, not people of a certain color. Also, should non-white people who have purchased land give it up? It wasn't bought with permission of it's owner. And the number of native americans remaining to the amount of land to be given back is now so wildly disproportionate that revoking ownership would leave a lot of homeless and poor people of all colors scrambling for a place to be, just so a few people could have what was taken from their ancestors.
I think the reason you don't see white people up in arms about this is because finding a solution is more complicated than "just give it back". With homosexuality the simple answer is "let them do what they want," with animal rights it's "just treat them right." With the land issue it's "We're going to have to radically change our whole world." The former make white people feel good about themselves and make them feel like they're progressive and making a difference (they're just deluding themselves anyway, waving a sign and voting doesn't change a thing), but the latter leaves them questioning the legitimacy of their entire lives. It's not pleasant to think about and part of white culture is ignoring what is not pleasant to think about (or adopting a meaningless political platform on the issue for the image and then doing nothing about it).