Could an Atheist be a believer.
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Peace to all,
what are you talking about LObster, many people believe they are doing the right thing while in fact it is evil, so do you think they will find paradise, are the followers of manson and jimmy jones in heaven? What about communism, they all truely believe they are doing what is good for mankind, even if they have to kill 1 million innocents in order for 200 million to survive, is this good, is this Gods ethic, the greatest good for the greateset number,,,, noo, there is a right and wrong, regardless of wether you believe in something does not make it true.
Kurt
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I'm not talking about people believing they are right. You completely misunderstood me.
Simple said if someone does all the right things but is considered an atheist - is he still a "believer."
I say, if actions reflect beliefs (I think they do), then someone who does all the right things must believe in all the right things, too. -
Peace to all,
Lobster, come on bro, ok, so a porn star makes love to his costar, he does all the right things, is this really making love?
Kurt
Good point. But what he's doing there is acting, or pretending. People can pretend to do the right thing. But here we're talking about people who sincerely do the right thing.
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Define Believer please. I think we are talking about different things. You probably see believer as = good Samaritan (am I right?)
A believer is someone who believes in the truth, right?
A believer is someone who always strives to do the right thing, which is the result of his right beliefs.Let's imagine that there's a person who always does the right thing, is always fair minded, is always searching for the truth, etc - is it possible for that person to not be a believer?
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Peace to all,
Ok Lobster, I know a person who follows a local shaman,,, he really believes that he is God on earth, he follows his teachings and really tries to do good by him,, is he a believer? Yes maybe, but not a believier in the one GOd,,, he is associating others with God right,, even though I think he is a nice guy and tries to do good, hes wrong right?
Kurt
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A believer is someone who believes in the truth, right?
A believer is someone who always strives to do the right thing, which is the result of his right beliefs.Let's imagine that there's a person who always does the right thing, is always fair minded, is always searching for the truth, etc - is it possible for that person to not be a believer?
I have a question for this atheist who does the right thing, is always fair minded and is always searching for the truth. Why bother? You are going to be worm food at the end of the day anyway.
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Hmm, but he believes that the god is on earth. Is that true? Has he got any proof?
If this belief of his is false, then that might interfere with his "trying to do good" and he may do something wrong.
Maybe it already does stop him from doing the right thing on occasion.I guess what I'm saying is, believing in the truth is not intrinsically valuable. But it is instrumentally valuable. It's not worth knowing the truth just for the sake of it, but the truth helps us do what is right.
What we do can be easily traced back to what we believe. If a person does mostly the right thing, then he believes in mostly the right stuff.
God is the ultimate truth, the one and only reality. Setting up partners with god essentially means believing in an alternate reality. Not seeing things for the way they are.
For example seeing yourself as more important than others - that's not true. Everyone is equally important. A lot of people don't realize this and thus tend to be selfish. In fact, most wrong deeds can be attributed to this particular sort of "shirk."You might say, okay so someone believes in all the right things in this world. Knows everything. But it's still possible for him to not believe in god. Maybe because God isn't part of this world?
But my view is that god has to be part of the observable world. We should be able to verify Him or it or whatever it or he is.
And belief in god, just like any other belief, isn't valuable intrinsically. It helps us in some way, and you can gauge that in our actions. It has to. And I think the quran agrees with me.
Belief in god makes you a better person.So if you think a bad person can believe in god, then either your definition of a bad person is wrong or your definition of god is wrong.
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I have a question for this atheist who does the right thing, is always fair minded and is always searching for the truth. Why bother? You are going to be worm food at the end of the day anyway.
Why?
Again, you are judging that atheist based not on what his beliefs REALLY are, but on what he says his beliefs are.
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So when you say atheist, you actually mean closet monotheist? I'm going by the common definition.
Yes and no.
What I'm saying is, if you have an atheist who does everything right, and a monotheist who does a lot of things wrong, then maybe the atheists are right?
and if the atheists are right, and monotheism is right, then the atheists are the true monotheists? -
I still don't get what you mean by atheist. And now I am confused as to what you think "monotheist" is.
Let me put it this way, if the person believes that they are the creation of God, they are not an atheist. If they believe they are the result of chance and there is no Creator, they are an atheist.
By this definition of atheist. It does not matter whether they are good or evil. Their works are wasted, because everything they do is a result of their own subjective decisions. An atheist cannot believe in objective morality because morality is not something tangible that can be determined using the scientific method/observation.
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There is some aya inthe Qur'an where it says something about worshiping Him by any of His names. For me it is quite plain that someone who practices and believes in truth, justice, mercy or any other of His names and considers him or herself as subservient to any of those names and acts consquently is undoubtedly a believer. In fact many die in peace precisely because they consider all those things above him or herself.
I think we put a lot of stock on the word god, and we debate about who believes in god or not, but, but many do not relate the word god to any of the names of God, because simply the word god has been so much abused to commit crimes or hide crimes against many of His names that they do not want any part in that travesty. They are in fact not denying that there is some ultimate value above them to which they are subservient, they are denying a state of mind whereby somebody entitles him or herself to rule over other creatures and harm them on account that"disbelief" he or she has this god who condones those actions. In fact in some good people disbelief in god is a reaction to an abuse of the idea "god" of those who claim to believe in Him when in fact they abuse His names.
As Jesus said, you will know them by their fruit.
Words do not serve only to tell the truth, they serve to lie and mislead.
And with this of course, I am not calling believers any authors of bad deeds and crimes commeted under the guise. I am speaking strictly about those people who sincerely do GOOD DEEDS because they follow their noble fitra to sere justice, mercy and truth, or any other Real Superior values.
Of course to find real good peopla like that is just as hard as to find them among the "believers". It is not that anybody who says I do not believe in God is automatically a believer in any of His other names, but there people like that. Also the fact that if they did say I believe in God for them carries a load of cowardise, of doing things because you are going to be punished or rewarded, and not because they are right, that is truthful, just or merciful. In fact theose who act like that are spiritually a step above those who act out of fear or expecting reward, even if their "wording" is off in just the one word "god" because of the dirt adhered to it through vain usage of the word.
Salaam
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Let me put it this way, if the person believes that they are the creation of God, they are not an atheist. If they believe they are the result of chance and there is no Creator, they are an atheist.
Is this a summary of the message of God?
And are these two the only options on the theory of creation?
What about setting partners with God when it's only done by those who believe God created them?
At least an atheist can never be a mushrik!! -
Salaam
believes in truth, justice, mercy or any other of His names and considers him or herself as subservient to any of those names and acts consquently is undoubtedly a believer. In fact many die in peace precisely because they consider all those things above him or herself.
What do you mean believes in truth, justice, mercy? Those are just values. They are not something tangible that you can believe in. Thats like saying I believe in cheating. What does it mean that someone believes in a value? Is the value going to benefit them somehow even though it is not even alive?
I think we put a lot of stock on the word god, and we debate about who believes in god or not, but, but many do not relate the word god to any of the names of God, because simply the word god has been so much abused to commit crimes or hide crimes against many of His names that they do not want any part in that travesty. They are in fact not denying that there is some ultimate value above them to which they are subservient, they are denying a state of mind whereby somebody entitles him or herself to rule over other creatures and harm them on account that"disbelief" he or she has this god who condones those actions. In fact in some good people disbelief in god is a reaction to an abuse of the idea "god" of those who claim to believe in Him when in fact they abuse His names.
Rather than disbelieving in God because of a few idiots who do crimes in his name. Why not just ignore the criminals and realize they are independent of God. Its not a valid excuse.
7180 And to God belong the beautiful names, so call Him by them; and ignore those who blaspheme in His names. They will be punished for what they used to do.
And with this of course, I am not calling believers any authors of bad deeds and crimes commeted under the guise. I am speaking strictly about those people who sincerely do GOOD DEEDS because they follow their noble fitra to sere justice, mercy and truth, or any other Real Superior values.
The are not following their natural inclination unless they also believe in 1 God.
3030 So establish yourself to the system of monotheism. It is the inclination that God has nurtured the people on. There is no changing in God?s creation. Such is the pure system, but most people do not know.
Let me pose a question. Why would they be "bound" to follow truth, justice etc. as part of their "natural inclination" when being an atheist means they are not "natural" as they are a product of chance (extremely low probability of life forming on its own, hardly what I would call "natural".
Of course to find real good peopla like that is just as hard as to find them among the "believers". It is not that anybody who says I do not believe in God is automatically a believer in any of His other names, but there people like that. Also the fact that if they did say I believe in God for them carries a load of cowardise, of doing things because you are going to be punished or rewarded, and not because they are right, that is truthful, just or merciful. In fact theose who act like that are spiritually a step above those who act out of fear or expecting reward, even if their "wording" is off in just the one word "god" because of the dirt adhered to it through vain usage of the word.
Well if it were not for a reward, why would human beings do anything? Our entire goal in life is to earn pleasure and minimize pain. What other motives are there? The only reason why a human being would forgo a reward in this life is because they believe in the ultimate Good in the next life.
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Is this a summary of the message of God?
And are these two the only options on the theory of creation?
What about setting partners with God when it's only done by those who believe God created them?
At least an atheist can never be a mushrik!!No its not a summary, but "Simple" has set the scope of this thread to atheists and believers.